Dermatology really out of reach for DO?

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CaribbeanBlue said:
Where does this assumption come from aside from the fact that it is one of the most competitive residencies out of MD schools?

I ask this because although I used to believe the same, I have been searching for DO's to shadow and I have found a good number of DO dermatologists, even more so than surgery.

I live in southern california by the way.
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CaribbeanBlue said:
Where does this assumption come from aside from the fact that it is one of the most competitive residencies out of MD schools?

I ask this because although I used to believe the same, I have been searching for DO's to shadow and I have found a good number of DO dermatologists, even more so than surgery.

I live in southern california by the way.
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What they don't tell you is that Dermatology is out of reach for virtually everyone, MD or DO.

That and the fact that DO's match Derm at similar rates to MD's when AOA programs are taken into consideration.

In short, unless you're some sort of unreal med-student, don't get your hopes up for Derm. But don't write it off just because you might go DO either, your chances are similar either way (effectively nil)
 
cliquesh said:
Theere are 93 AOA ortho spots per year, maybe 40 derm, 20 ENT, 20 urology, and 12 neurosurgery. There were 4600 DO graduates last year.
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DrBumblebee said:
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Yea, ortho and general surgery are reasonable goals coming from a DO school. Matching ortho is really stressful, though. You'll only get interviews at programs you rotate at and not all of them will grant you an interview. So you may up only interviewing at 1 to 6 programs.
 
SLC said:
What they don't tell you is that Dermatology is out of reach for virtually everyone, MD or DO.

That and the fact that DO's match Derm at similar rates to MD's when AOA programs are taken into consideration.

In short, unless you're some sort of unreal med-student, don't get your hopes up for Derm. But don't write it off just because you might go DO either, your chances are similar either way (effectively nil)
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310 out of 16,527 USMDs matched dermatology, 1.8%.
40 out of 4623 DOs match derm, 0.8%
 
DrBumblebee said:
There're many orthopedics, urology, ENT, neurosurgery, derm, etc. AOA spots open for DOs only, which would be ACGME come 2015. Besides, I've seen many DOs in ACGME programs even before the merger.
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Many? Sure there are some, but it's more like a handful. Be real. Your chances are somewhat above US IMGs, but significantly below US MD grads.


For example, in ortho:

Orthopedic Surgery
Percentage of programs that typically interview and rank each applicant groups
N=83

US Seniors 99%
Osteopathic 30%
Canadian 27%
US IMG 24%
Non-US IMG 17%

delta (US Senior, Osteopathic) = 69%
delta (Osteopathic, US IMG) = 6%


Compare it to something like FM:

Family Medicine
Percentage of programs that typically interview and rank each applicant groups
N=230

US Seniors 99%
Osteopathic 93%
Canadian 69%
US IMG 84%
Non-US IMG 61%

delta (US Senior, Osteopathic) = 6%
delta (Osteopathic, US IMG) = 9%

Source: NRMP Program Director Survey Results, 2012
 
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cliquesh said:
310 out of 16,527 USMDs matched dermatology, 1.8%.
40 out of 4623 DOs match derm, 0.8%
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I think there's a mistake in your computations. Not everyone might have applied to derm. So, the denominators should be a lot less. Still, the difference isn't too much to care.
 
cliquesh said:
310 out of 16,527 USMDs matched dermatology, 1.8%.
40 out of 4623 DOs match derm, 0.8%
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Source?

Last time I checked (probably two years ago) the percentages were within a few tenths of each-other.

Still, even with your numbers it's plaint to see that virtually nobody ends up matching derm.
 
SLC said:
Source?

Last time I checked (probably two years ago) the percentages were within a few tenths of each-other.

Still, even with your numbers it's plaint to see that virtually nobody ends up matching derm.
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DO chances for ACGME derm seems to be slightly lower than US IMGs. Based on PD surveys, the chances of being interviewed/ranked for ACGME derm is about the same as ortho. Not great.

Dermatology
Percentage of programs that typically interview and rank each applicant groups
N=52

US Seniors 98%
Osteopathic 31%
Canadian 33%
US IMG 33%
Non-US IMG 23%

delta (US Senior, Osteopathic) = 65%
delta (Osteopathic, US IMG) = -2%

Source: NRMP Program Director Survey Results, 2012
 
113 said:
DO chances for ACGME derm seems to be slightly lower than US IMGs. Based on PD surveys, the chances of being interviewed/ranked for ACGME derm is about the same as ortho. Not great.

Dermatology
Percentage of programs that typically interview and rank each applicant groups
N=52

US Seniors 98%
Osteopathic 31%
Canadian 33%
US IMG 33%
Non-US IMG 23%

delta (US Senior, Osteopathic) = 65%
delta (Osteopathic, US IMG) = -2%

Source: NRMP Program Director Survey Results, 2012
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31% for DO? Wow that must mean DOs have a really good shot at matching ACGME derm! :idea:
 
113 said:
DO chances for ACGME derm seems to be slightly lower than US IMGs. Based on PD surveys, the chances of being interviewed/ranked for ACGME derm is about the same as ortho. Not great.

Dermatology
Percentage of programs that typically interview and rank each applicant groups
N=52

US Seniors 98%
Osteopathic 31%
Canadian 33%
US IMG 33%
Non-US IMG 23%

delta (US Senior, Osteopathic) = 65%
delta (Osteopathic, US IMG) = -2%

Source: NRMP Program Director Survey Results, 2012
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Right, but what I was pointing out was that when you factor in the AOA Derm programs, US DO's become dermatologists at similar rates to US MD's. Your data doesn't account for AOA programs.

But the rate is still impossibly small, for both MD's and DO's.
 
SLC said:
Right, but what I was pointing out was that when you factor in the AOA Derm programs, US DO's become dermatologists at similar rates to US MD's. Your data doesn't account for AOA programs.

But the rate is still impossibly small, for both MD's and DO's.
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I don't think anyone has made any statements about AOA derm. Everyone (except bumblebee) has simply pointed out that ACGME derm is out of reach for DOs.
 
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MedPR said:
I don't think anyone has made any statements about AOA derm. Everyone (except bumblebee) has simply pointed out that ACGME derm is out of reach for DOs.
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I made the statement in post #102 and was subsequently misunderstood.
 
MedPR said:
I don't think anyone has made any statements about AOA derm. Everyone (except bumblebee) has simply pointed out that ACGME derm is out of reach for DOs.
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I guess the DOs that I know have attended ACGME dermatology residencies were lying to me...I should've known better. Instead of living in the real world I should live on SDN world.
 
Meh. Not interested in derm so I'm not worried ;)
 
Shinken said:
I guess the DOs that I know have attended ACGME dermatology residencies were lying to me...I should've known better. Instead of living in the real world I should live on SDN world.
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Outliers in the real world are still outliers.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
 
Why dont you guys just block each other?
 
3 2 1 ... done!.. MedPR's in my ignore list.

Behind this MedPR username, there's either a group of people writing in turns by shifts, or a schizoid pre-med who has been rejected by US-DO and US-MD schools and picked a fight against DOs... The result, however, is that this username has done over 16,000 of posts in a couple months, all over the DO related threads on SDN, most of which were just for the trolling purposes, most of which were just plain full of hatred and out of concept.

This MedPR username is the second after the Sphincter in my ignore list.
 
DrBumblebee said:
3 2 1 ... done!.. MedPR's in my ignore list.

Behind this MedPR username, there's either a group of people writing in turns by shifts, or a schizoid pre-med who has been rejected by US-DO and US-MD schools and picked a fight against DOs... The result, however, is that this username has done over 16,000 of posts in a couple months, all over the DO related threads on SDN, most of which were just for the trolling purposes, most of which were just plain full of hatred and out of concept.

This MedPR username is the second after the Sphincter in my ignore list.
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Pretty sure I've been active for 13 months now. Also pretty sure I have 4 acceptances to DO/MD. :laugh:

Also

432123477_WaitYoumadbro_xlarge.jpeg
 
SLC said:
Right, but what I was pointing out was that when you factor in the AOA Derm programs, US DO's become dermatologists at similar rates to US MD's. Your data doesn't account for AOA programs.

But the rate is still impossibly small, for both MD's and DO's.
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Very true, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some OPTI's shuttered by the ACGME. The quality of osteo programs vary widely compared to ACGME residencies. Many are in community programs with very low patient loads, variation, and volume. I don't think residents at these programs have the opportunity to learn much.

Objectively, the average quality of AOA residencies is well below the majority of ACGME residencies. This is true in terms of teaching, didactics, location, and quality of attending physicians. That's the primary reason why the majority of DO grads want to participate in the NRMP.
 
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113 said:
You're using all of these wrong. And a lot of your other posts make no sense at all... Did you, by chance, learn English as a second language?

I don't even really get some of MedPR's posts, but the majority are at the very least somewhat readable.
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And, what's wrong with it if English is my fourth foreign language! I'll be a US trained doctor starting from my med school up to residency and beyond. Deal with it.

Preview


PS: I'm a US citizen, and this is what's important for my country beyond my 2 bachelors + 1 masters degrees with high honors along with my previous computer engineering and military careers.
 
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I don't think it's impossible for a DO to get an AGME ortho residency. I've see it happen twice at my school in the last couple years. I've also seen someone get an AGME plastic surgery residency, which is also tough for a DO to get.

I like reading everyone's opinions about how the merger will affect the match for DOs, but I am going to wait until it happens before deciding how much things will change. Right now there are a lot of guesses being posted.
 
DrBumblebee said:
And, what's wrong with it if English is my fourth foreign language! I'll be a US trained doctor starting from my med school up to residency and beyond. Deal with it.

Preview
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:laugh:
 
KGflyboy said:
I don't think it's impossible for a DO to get an AGME or tho residency. I've see it happen twice at my school in the last couple years. I've also seen someone get an AGME plastic surgery residency, which is also tough for a DO to get.

I like reading everyone's opinions about how the merger will affect the match for DOs, but I am going to wait until it happens before deciding how much things will change. Right now there are a lot of guesses being posted.
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+1 :thumbup:

I'm expecting that things're gonna be better than they used to be, though. Haters gonna hate, though.
 
113 said:
Very true, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some OPTI's shuttered by the ACGME. The quality of osteo programs vary widely compared to ACGME residencies...Objectively, the average quality of AOA residencies is well below the majority of ACGME residencies. This is true in terms of teaching, didactics, location, and quality of attending physicians...
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That's probably true, but the converse is also true in some cases with AOA residencies in certain places and fields being top notch. Also, I'd imagine that the majority of programs that have accreditation issues when the merger occurs will be made to comply. There will probably be some programs that go away, but I'll bet they're few and far between.

I can't comment on the quality or lack thereof of AOA Derm residencies as a whole or even by program as I have no experience with, nor interest in Dermatology.

My only point is that when AOA opportunities are brought into consideration, Derm odds are similar for DO and MD grads.
 
DrBumblebee said:
I've no doubt that things would change in a positive way. Don't get me wrong but you're a tad bit of a cynical person.

I don't know the reason behind, but you've been consistently sounding in hundreds of your posts in countless threads on SDN like that you embraced your URM status just to gain passage to the "glorious" MD world territory, but unfortunately like that didn't understand the meaning behind why this favor was done to you.. It was because US should embrace the diversity especially in public service, such as medicine.

There've been many turning points in modern US history. Likewise, I see this MD & DO unification process as a goodwill as well as a must that come from both sides for getting to something better for the patients; this is something like the civil rights movement in the US.

As the physicians, we should embrace all practically available methods to heal the patients without risking their lives. So, cleanse your pre-med hatred (or whatever you have in your blood), and wait and see the change.

It stands too controversial to convert 320,000 foreign med school graduates into MD but to exclude the DOs from the pack... Thus, I don't agree with you in that any PD would discriminate any DO that has sufficient scores from COMLEX or USMLE, come 2015.
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The fact that MedPR isn't naiive doesn't necessarily make him cynical.

I bolded the last part of your post because it is absurd. Discrimination against DOs will undoubtedly decrease over the next 50 years but to think it will simply vanish (or significantly drop) come 2015 is foolish. Old minds are hard to change.

Alas, just try your best at medical school, set your sights high, and work towards your dream. You can certainly become a dermatologist as a DO -- you just have a steeper hill to climb.

Steeper. But not vertical.
 
It still fascinates me that people are actually interested in derm.
 
DrBumblebee said:
And, what's wrong with it if English is my fourth foreign language! I'll be a US trained doctor starting from my med school up to residency and beyond. Deal with it.

Preview


PS: I'm a US citizen, and this is what's important for my country beyond my 2 bachelors + 1 masters degrees with high honors along with my previous computer engineering and military careers.
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wth? I wasn't commenting on your academic abilities, patriotism, or citizenship. I was only explaining a possible reason for your unintelligible and strangely worded replies. Speaking of which, please stop using memes. If you don't use them appropriately, it just makes you look bad.
 
DrBumblebee said:
And, what's wrong with it if English is my fourth foreign language! I'll be a US trained doctor starting from my med school up to residency and beyond. Deal with it.

PS: I'm a US citizen, and this is what's important for my country beyond my 2 bachelors + 1 masters degrees with high honors along with my previous computer engineering and military careers.
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30764033.jpg
 
Dmr6186 said:
The truth, along with all the other super competitive specialties.
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Yeah. I am interested in g surg most heavily. Still competitive I guess. My dream is ortho, which, out of the ROADS, isnt the most unrealistic as a DO (if you include AOA). I'd be stoked to land cards or even just ole fashion internal med. so yeah, this pediatric neurosurg / cardiothoracic / OMG I'm into a super crazy specialty talk doesnt freak me out too bad. ;)
 
Ost3oclast said:
Yeah. I am interested in g surg most heavily. Still competitive I guess. My dream is ortho, which, out of the ROADS, isnt the most unrealistic as a DO (if you include AOA). I'd be stoked to land cards or even just ole fashion internal med. so yeah, this pediatric neurosurg / cardiothoracic / OMG I'm into a super crazy specialty talk doesnt freak me out too bad. ;)
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The O in ROAD is ophtho. ;)
 
113 said:
wth? I wasn't commenting on your academic abilities, patriotism, or citizenship. I was only explaining a possible reason for your unintelligible and strangely worded replies. Speaking of which, please stop using memes. If you don't use them appropriately, it just makes you look bad.
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Actually, while Dr. Bumblebee's meme might be a bit of a non-sequitur, I think it rocks.

Rock on, Dr. Bumblebee. Rock on. :thumbup:
 
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