Disastrous clerkship...residency chances?

[KonoMDda]

Hello everyone. This post will be part rant and part asking for advice. Bear with me...

I am at the end of my third year clerkships and had done pretty well throughout the year, getting a majority of honors and some high passes throughout the year. However I recently completed a core clerkship not in my field of interest and it was a disaster. I was paired with one preceptor the majority of the time and she did not seem to like me at all. I sensed this early on and tried doing whatever was in my power to get on her good side. I showed up early, stayed late, offered to do grunt work and random paperwork, etc. Nothing seemed to work. Finally, at the midfeedback session, I asked what I could do to improve. She told me it was very obvious that I was faking an interest in a field that I was not interested in and said she felt offended. I did not really know what to say to this. I ended up going to the clerkship director and asked if I could work with another preceptor under the guise of wanting to see a different panel of patients. I did not bring up any of my interpersonal problems with the previous preceptor. The second preceptor and I got along great and the last few days of the rotation went by swimmingly.

Fast forward to a couple weeks later when I got my evaluations and grade back--I ended up with some extremely negative comments from the previous preceptor. She wrote things like it was obvious that I was "feigning an interest in the field to get the grade" and other comments that made it seem like I was doing stuff just to get honors rather than actually trying to learn or contribute to the team. She then proceeded to give me straight 1's and 2's down the line. My other preceptor wrote glowing comments and gave me mostly 5s. I ended up with a pass in the rotation.

I reached out to the course director again, who I found out was very good friends with the preceptor who gave me negative comments. She said that the preceptor’s comments were so awful that she considered failing me. However, she stated that my shelf score and the positive comments from the other preceptor convinced her to barely pass me.

I have a lot of responses to the negative evaluations. First of all, wtf else am I supposed to do besides act interested and put in work? I am guessing I tried too hard because I sensed that this preceptor was biased against me from the beginning, and she was super sensitive and I rubbed her the wrong way even more by putting in more effort. I am not a brown noser by any means. I did not put as much effort into impressing a preceptor for any other rotation. I just worked hard and did what I was supposed to do and got great feedback and evaluations. But for this rotation, I was just at a loss as to how to bridge the interpersonal gap between me and the preceptor and my efforts backfired I guess.

Anyway, my worry is that prior to all this happening, I was pretty confident in my application. I will be applying to internal medicine residency programs this cycle and am wondering how this will end up affecting me for top programs. I did not have my heart set on MGH or anything but my program list was definitely top heavy prior to this happening. Now I am wondering if I will have to significantly change my outlook in terms of the application season?

Would love to hear any of your guys' thoughts.

tl;dr Got bad evals and grade on a core rotation not in field of interest. Wondering how it will affect me in upcoming application cycle to internal medicine.

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[evilbooyaa]

You passed and didn't fail. You will match into a great IM residency and do just fine throughout your career.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Like what the hell do they want you to do? “Feigning an interest for the grade” lol

 

[wholeheartedly]

That seems really dumb. 1's and 2's should be reserved for people with major deficits, not feigning interest and the clerkship director should be on top of that crap. Sorry you have to deal with this. When I did evals for residents and fellows anything below or above a certain cutoff need a detailed justification.

Do you have an IM mentor you're close to and could talk to about it? Sometimes an insider knows institutional politics and might have some insight on whether to just let it go or whether there might be any chance if you pursue it further. They'll also have some insight on how much it'll likely impact you or not.

I don't expect you to say, so don't feel obligated, but I'm very curious what rotation this was.

 

[UnoMas]

There gotta be some more to the story, you must have said or done something that pissed her off majorly. This is probably not the first time she met a student who "feigned an interest in her specialty." Either way I don't think it will make much of an impact maybe at top tier places where they can be picky about stuff. I know people who had "chronically late to rounds" on their Dean's letter and they still matched.

 

[mistafab]

Typically - I say “there is probably more to the story yada yada yada.”

In this scenario, one preceptor out of an entire year saying that in the midst of many good evaluations tells me that this is no big deal. I am pretty cynical with strangers on the internet typically, so I’d say most people looking at this are going to think you are fine.

More than likely, this preceptor is going through some crappy life situation and they took it out on you.

 

[KonoMDda]

I wish there was more to the story, but there really isn’t. It seemed like she immediately disliked me from the first day when I asked her what her expectations were. She seemed taken a back by my question and said that only students who just want to get a certain grade ask that and a truly excellent student would not ask what they needed to do, they would just do it. She also wrote that I tried to make a show of working hard and reading up about patients/going on pubmed but only did that for appearances. Lol...

This was on one of the shorter rotations (neuro/psych/fm) that are supposedly not as important as the longer rotations.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I would take to your clerkship director that you asked what the expectations for a service were and you were not only not given those expectations but you asking that question was held against you and potentially lead (in part because you still have to be diplomatic) to your poor evaluation. That is like a hardcore ACGME (and probably LCME, I can't remember) requirement. It may not help you but it will save your classmates, potentially, from having to rotate through a situation like that.

 

[KonoMDda]

I did talk to the clerkship director, but that went terribly as well. She said the fact that I was coming to her and asking about the grade and comments confirmed that I was just looking to make the grade.

The med school admin are supportive. They want me to file an official complaint, but they said that it would be unlikely to change my grade. It would just launch an investigation so that future students would not have to deal with it. Which I’m totally all about. I will probably go forward with it, but I’m just stuck in terms of my own situation at the moment.

 

[Taddy Mason]

People feigning interest for a grade can be spotted from a mile away. Fair or not, it definitely rubs people the wrong way. I’d do some serious self reflection and talk to people you know who will be frank, and not just tell you what you want to hear. Might not be pleasant but it’s probably for the best after reviewing this thread and your post history.

 

[wholeheartedly]

I did talk to the clerkship director, but that went terribly as well. She said the fact that I was coming to her to “challenge” the grade and comments confirmed that I was just looking to make the grade.

The med school admin are supportive. They want me to file an official complaint, but they said that it would be unlikely to change my grade. It would just launch an investigation so that future students would not have to deal with it. Which I’m totally all about. I will probably go forward with it, but I’m just stuck in terms of my own situation at the moment.

It'd be nice for future students for sure. I've been in a crappy situation that was hard to get resolution for because even though this person had a history of unprofessional and unethical conduct, no one ever reported it so there was no established pattern of behavior.

I don't think it'll hurt you a much in the long run. I think everybody is well aware how subjective clerkships are and will see one off grade in a string of great ones as a fluke.

When you do file the complaint, definitely do what @evilbooyaa recomended by stating that you asked about expectations for the clerkship and were rebuffed.

 

[DarknightX]

I had a horrible OB rotation and had comments such as “not interested” “no motivation” “not prepared” and the dreaded “lack of professionalism”, which were included in my dean’s letter. I passed the rotation, but not without some very vindictive comments.

The rest of my application was fine, and I got glowing comments from every other rotation, which clearly made this one evaluation seem like an aberration. I went into general surgery, and this wasn’t an issue on any of my interviews. Most interviewers laughed about it, and some commented “that the OB’s didn’t like you too much.” I still got interviews at almost every program I applied to, and I ended up matching at the number 2 program on my rank list.

I wouldn’t worry too much about this. If the rest of your application is fine, then it will likely be a non-issue. I’d make sure that you get some solid letters of recommendation, as what people say about you will be looked at more closely.

 

[KonoMDda]

Thanks for the honest feedback, Taddy. I totally get what you’re saying and don’t worry, I did do some serious self reflection after the whole experience. Like I said, I’m not usually a brown noser and don’t go out of my way to feign interest usually. I actually find most of Medicine interesting and did not feel like I was “faking an interest” in the field. I may have been trying too hard to impress, sure. That probably was my undoing. I usually put in half as much effort reading up on patients and pulling up articles to use for care plans on other rotations and ended up getting honors.

But anyway, given that I’m likely stuck with these evals and the grade, I’m just wondering what steps I need to take to move forward and be successful in the match. Does anyone have advice as to what I should say if someone asks me about it on interviews?

 

[wholeheartedly]

I still got interviews at almost every program I applied to, and I ended up matching at the number 2 program on my tank list.

Freudian slip?

 

[DarknightX]

Freudian slip?

Autocorrect on iphone

 

[Moose A Moose]

Let me guess, this was an obgyn rotation?

Lol, to hell with them. You’ll be fine.. especially with the solid Step.

 

[KonoMDda]

Let me guess, this was an obgyn rotation?

Lol, to hell with them. You’ll be fine.. especially with the solid Step.

Haha not obgyn. I actually got along fine with the obgyns here. I don’t know what that says about me haha. But then again, I pretty much got along with everyone I worked with except this lady. I don’t know why she was so butthurt.

 

[afib123]

Just starting 3rd year , but you should be fine man. Your step 1 is greater than 91 percentile and you're smarter than most people on this forum and the country. With a 255+, you can go to any field in medicine. Just go on with your life , maybe apply to more programs if that'll make you feel safer during interview season.

 

[afib123]

More than anything I am shocked something like this even happens in real life. I had one eval too where I think I got a lower eval because I was extra enthusiastic but I didn't get any bad comments from that person. Just my hard work wasn't acknowledged and it was brushed off as average

 

[KonoMDda]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I’ll apply to a couple more schools and a little more broadly and hope for the best. I’m just happy to be done with third year at this point..

 

[trobinsonmd]

That's pretty ridiculous, sucks you had to deal with that... I had a similar experience in my ob/gyn clerkship (where I WAS actually faking an interest in the field)... the comments I got were semi-negative, but I anticipated that and studied hard for the shelf and it was enough to pass the clerkship... ended up matching derm and never thought about ob/gyn again after that clerkship... moral of the story... you'll be fine matching into IM (and a good program, at that) with that step score and application... just try to apply a bit more broadly and you'll match at a strong program

 

[IMreshopeful]

I was in a similar situation with one of my rotations - chief resident decided he didn’t like me early on so I got a mediocre eval. Ended up getting honors due to shelf score. Sometimes this happens and you can’t do much about it. It’s unfortunate that the clerkship director didn’t support you much either. I would also leave it alone at this point... complaining about it will just piss off the clerkship director more. Just use it as an example of what NOT to be like as a resident or attending.

It’s natural as well (even though you weren’t faking interest per se) for people to gravitate towards an interest in one field or another. You can’t genuinely love every field you rotate through.

Don’t worry about it. For IM we are more forgiving of these things especially if this isn’t your IM rotation.

 

[DocWinter]

Yeah I got a pretty horrible grade like that once from a family medicine doc early in my third year. He had asked what field I wanted to go into and I did not answer medicine.
He ended up telling me to my face I didn’t have the knowledge bank to succeed in residency and ripped me for lack of clinical knowledge in the evaluation, which I found kind of ironic being so early in my third year. I mean of course my clinical knowledge is elementary, is that what you’re supposed to be teaching me?

He ended up giving me a C but I bumped it up to a B with a great COMAT.

Anyway, you will be just fine, don’t let one bad eval get you down, most people meet someone like a doc you worked with at least once in third year.

 

[Psai]

It's crazy how the ink is barely dry on this new doximity popularity contest and students are already using them as some sort of holy writ for which programs to apply to.

 

[7331poas]

She wrote things like it was obvious that I was "feigning an interest in the field to get the grade" and other comments that made it seem like I was doing stuff just to get honors rather than actually trying to learn or contribute to the team.

Was this incorrect?

The problem here seems to be what she graded you

 

[NeuResurgens]

I think you'll be ok, but this does further illustrate to me how stupid the clerkship grading system at most schools is. No group of people smaller than 5 individuals (arbitrary, but you get the point) should be able to tank a grade if subjective evaluations are used. In this case, 2 people were enough to tank your grade. Pretty ridiculous. And for absurd reasons too. I know what it's like to feel early on like you're not clicking with a coworker/supervisor, try to work harder and be more helpful in response, and still get shat on by said person in the end. Thankfully, you have the other good grades and evals to fall back on, and the fact that it's not in your chosen specialty helps.

 

[NeuResurgens]

Like what the hell do they want you to do? “Feigning an interest for the grade” lol

You must have an absolute interest in every specialty. You must have publications in every specialty and match into a top program in every specialty on match day. Anything less is subject to dismissal

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Can you get the comments erased from your MSPE? That's the most important thing. If you can, I wouldn't worry about the rest

 

[girlofgrace7]

Everyone works with at least one person in their clerkships that they just don't click with.

In my case, it was a senior resident within my chosen specialty. She was absolutely horrible to me (and several other students, I came to find out). She told us that we could not ask any questions unless our patient was "actively in the process of crumping" and chastised me for asking the attending about whether one of my patients (who had a genetic syndrome, heart transplant, cancer, and just about every organ failing) would be restarting chemo when presenting the plan on rounds. She even got irritated when she ran into me after I could have gone home but had stayed to play for a while with a foster care kid who was lonely and had asked me to play a game with him. I ended up getting a horrible evaluation from her, including "may one day gain the skills to be an intern." Luckily, another student who had an even worse experience with her (and was not going into the field) wound up reporting her to the clerkship director and mentioned several of us who also had problems with her (all of whom were quiet but well-liked and intelligent students who planned to enter the field). The clerkship director was kind enough to withhold all of her comments on our deans' letters. I ended up working with the awful resident for a day during my sub-I, and she told me "You're so good now because I was hard on you" (I nearly bit through my tongue trying not to say anything in return).

Everyone goes through awful experiences on their clerkships from time to time. Definitely do some soul-searching with bad evals to figure out if it truly reflects a deficiency or if it's the evaluator's problem. If it's the latter, move on. If other students have had a negative experience with that preceptor, consider filing a group complaint so others will hopefully not have to deal with the problem in the future. One comment is not the end of the world, but if you have a good relationship with one of the deans, maybe sit down and discuss your concern (without whining, justifying, or asking for a grade change). Just continue to be engaged (but not annoying), know and connect with your patients, and learn what you can from each rotation. It will balance out in the end.

 

[NeurologyHopeful2018]

Hello everyone. This post will be part rant and part asking for advice. Bear with me...

I am at the end of my third year clerkships and had done pretty well throughout the year, getting a majority of honors and some high passes throughout the year. However I recently completed a core clerkship not in my field of interest and it was a disaster. I was paired with one preceptor the majority of the time and she did not seem to like me at all. I sensed this early on and tried doing whatever was in my power to get on her good side. I showed up early, stayed late, offered to do grunt work and random paperwork, etc. Nothing seemed to work. Finally, at the midfeedback session, I asked what I could do to improve. She told me it was very obvious that I was faking an interest in a field that I was not interested in and said she felt offended. I did not really know what to say to this. I ended up going to the clerkship director and asked if I could work with another preceptor under the guise of wanting to see a different panel of patients. I did not bring up any of my interpersonal problems with the previous preceptor. The second preceptor and I got along great and the last few days of the rotation went by swimmingly.

Fast forward to a couple weeks later when I got my evaluations and grade back--I ended up with some extremely negative comments from the previous preceptor. She wrote things like it was obvious that I was "feigning an interest in the field to get the grade" and other comments that made it seem like I was doing stuff just to get honors rather than actually trying to learn or contribute to the team. She then proceeded to give me straight 1's and 2's down the line. My other preceptor wrote glowing comments and gave me mostly 5s. I ended up with a pass in the rotation.

I reached out to the course director again, who I found out was very good friends with the preceptor who gave me negative comments. She said that the preceptor’s comments were so awful that she considered failing me. However, she stated that my shelf score and the positive comments from the other preceptor convinced her to barely pass me.

I have a lot of responses to the negative evaluations. First of all, wtf else am I supposed to do besides act interested and put in work? I am guessing I tried too hard because I sensed that this preceptor was biased against me from the beginning, and she was super sensitive and I rubbed her the wrong way even more by putting in more effort. I am not a brown noser by any means. I did not put as much effort into impressing a preceptor for any other rotation. I just worked hard and did what I was supposed to do and got great feedback and evaluations. But for this rotation, I was just at a loss as to how to bridge the interpersonal gap between me and the preceptor and my efforts backfired I guess.

Anyway, my worry is that prior to all this happening, I was pretty confident in my application. I will be applying to internal medicine residency programs this cycle and am wondering how this will end up affecting me for top programs. I did not have my heart set on MGH or anything but my program list was definitely top heavy prior to this happening. Now I am wondering if I will have to significantly change my outlook in terms of the application season?

Would love to hear any of your guys' thoughts.

tl;dr Got bad evals and grade on a core rotation not in field of interest. Wondering how it will affect me in upcoming application cycle to internal medicine.

Everyone, including AOA students, have gotten a bad eval. You simply don't hear them complaining out of shame and embrassment. You passed the clerkship - so not worth mulling over.

 

[KonoMDda]

Thanks for all the insight, guys.

The scary part is that she is an absolutely different person with patients. She turns on the charm hardcore and all of her patients love her. Hell, if I had been her patient, I probably would have liked her too. Yikes o_o

 

[mehc012]

Jesus. What a b***h. If this is true and you’re not embellishing, sorry you had to deal with that. It’s exactly people like this who should not be teaching. And I find this behavior prevalent much more among female attendings, taking things way too personally and making assessments based on emotion rather than fact (you were studying, looking things up etc). It makes the rest of us look bad.
A student asking for clerkship expectations is basically the first thing I expect to hear from my students. It shows me they care. The person you got stuck with has zero logical thinking, and sounds like she belongs in Mean Girls rather than medicine.


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Did you have to go there? Really?
I already know how you're going to respond and I know there's no point in debating you on this (since, really, it's just a statement of opinion and 'my personal experience' so it's inherently irrefutable), so in a similar vein I'll just let you know that I find these kinds of comments prevalent much more among people who don't take the time to notice and check their own observational biases.

 

[mehc012]

Thanks for all the insight, guys.

The scary part is that she is an absolutely different person with patients. She turns on the charm hardcore and all of her patients love her. Hell, if I had been her patient, I probably would have liked her too. Yikes o_o

Why is that scary? That's literally the best possible scenario, because at the end of the day, she may be a crap teacher, but at least she's good with the patients.

 

[mehc012]

A big part of being a good physician is behavioral and temperamental. There are students who have no business within a mile of patients who get passed through the system to avoid conflict, when in reality I think most understand that these people are bound to make terrible physicians.

So there's ambiguity here - the right answer isn't "do away with all subjective evaluations"

In the OP's case, I agree that the preceptor was a bad one, but it sounds like she signaled she was a bad one early. Whether it was some sort of bias issue or he did something off-putting that she felt uncomfortable bringing up, he mishandled by not requesting a different preceptor once it was clear there was a personality conflict.

Finally the consequences here are near zero unless he was hoping to match into the specialty - one pass out of a batch of honors and high pass is a nothing burger.

Did you somehow miss the part where they did exactly that?

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Why is that scary? That's literally the best possible scenario, because at the end of the day, she may be a crap teacher, but at least she's good with the patients.

A crap teacher has NO business teaching students, or having an academic appointment as she undoubtedly has. Some attendings even get RVU reimbursement for this. If she lacks the ability to be impartial or logical, she needs to be barred from student interaction.


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[MediCane2006]

Did you have to go there? Really?
I already know how you're going to respond and I know there's no point in debating you on this (since, really, it's just a statement of opinion and 'my personal experience' so it's inherently irrefutable), so in a similar vein I'll just let you know that I find these kinds of comments prevalent much more among people who don't take the time to notice and check their own observational biases.

It may be anecdotal but in my experience it’s absolutely more common among female faculty.

I say what I see in my daily life, and if it happens to be the “politically incorrect” thing, oh well. There are plenty of jerk male physicians, probably more so as a whole than females —but they are jerks in a different way. Passive aggressiveness and going on “a feeling,” like OPs attending, is a trait usually prevalent in females. Overt aggressiveness, physicality, throwing things, etc, is prevalent in males. And of course I’m always observing women physicians, considering that I am one and everyone else is watching our behavior. Your comments sound suspiciously like “check your privilege.” Men and women are different—in their social interactions, the way they approach the world, even the way they handle stress. Tons of social science on that. It’s not a bad or good thing. It’s just a thing. The world is full of people who somehow treat our differences as a cardinal sin. How silly.


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Sometimes I wonder if it’s insecurity? But you’re absolutely right that it does give the rest of us a bad name.

 

[Newyawk]

Did you have to go there? Really?
I already know how you're going to respond and I know there's no point in debating you on this (since, really, it's just a statement of opinion and 'my personal experience' so it's inherently irrefutable), so in a similar vein I'll just let you know that I find these kinds of comments prevalent much more among people who don't take the time to notice and check their own observational biases.

I just had a resident talk **** about me to another student (a classmate and friend of mine). It was the most unprofessional experience i have ever had in my life, let alone in med school. Through 6 months of clerkships, most of my negative, judgemental experiences have been with female residents and attendings. I have also worked with amazing women who have helped me significantly and left me nice comments. I have yet to come across one guy who has been overtly judgemental towards me. They seem to either care about you or ignore you, which to me is much more desirable than being adored or hated.
This has been my experience through 6 months. Maybe my opinion will change. Either way, instead of attacking @OrthoTraumaMD for her observations through years of practice simply because she singled out your gender, maybe acknowledge that women as a group have created stereotypes (ie all the obgyn, peds references) that are unfortunately often true and people around them suffer because of it.

 

[mehc012]

A crap teacher has NO business teaching students, or having an academic appointment as she undoubtedly has. Some attendings even get RVU reimbursement for this. If she lacks the ability to be impartial or logical, she needs to be barred from student interaction.


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I mean, I agree that they have no buiness teaching students, and there should be some recourse for that.
I just don't think that it's a bad thing that she's good with her patients, since she does have that job also.

A bad teacher/good doctor is a poor fit for her current position, and students suffer.

A bad teacher/bad doctor is a poor fit for ANY healthcare position, and students AND patients suffer.

I say what I see in my daily life, and if it happens to be the “politically incorrect” thing, oh well. There are plenty of jerk male physicians, probably more so as a whole than females —but they are jerks in a different way. Passive aggressiveness and going on “a feeling,” like OPs attending, is a trait usually prevalent in females. Overt aggressiveness, physicality, throwing things, etc, is prevalent in males. And of course I’m always observing women physicians, considering that I am one and everyone else is watching our behavior. Your comments sound suspiciously like “check your privilege.” Men and women are different—in their social interactions, the way they approach the world, even the way they handle stress. Tons of social science on that. It’s not a bad or good thing. It’s just a thing. The world is full of people who somehow treat our differences as a cardinal sin. How silly.

Yup, exactly the response I predicted, and my own doesn't change. Not a check your privilege thing, just me saying what I see in my daily life.

I just had a resident talk **** about me to another student (a classmate and friend of mine). It was the most unprofessional experience i have ever had in my life, let alone in med school. Through 6 months of clerkships, most of my negative, judgemental experiences have been with female residents and attendings. I have also worked with amazing women who have helped me significantly and left me nice comments. I have yet to come across one guy who has been overtly judgemental towards me. They seem to either care about you or ignore you, which to me is much more desirable than being adored or hated.
This has been my experience through 6 months. Maybe my opinion will change. Either way, instead of attacking @OrthoTraumaMD for her observations through years of practice simply because she singled out your gender, maybe acknowledge that women as a group have created stereotypes (ie all the obgyn, peds references) that are unfortunately often true and people around them suffer because of it.

Not attacking, just disagreeing with them (and you, for the record). Those are not the same thing.
I acknowledge the stereotypes; they don't fit my own experiences (the most passive aggressive/verbally aggressive thing I've ever seen done in the hospital was carried out by a male vascular surgeon) and I also think that it's worth acknowledging the context that breeds them.

But, as I said earlier, this just turns into everyone arguing their own anecdotes and it's pointless. So I won't derail the thread further. Go ahead and consider all of my points ceded, your arguments won, and we can avoid the dogpile and the massive derailing of this thread as everyone tells their OB/GYN horror stories. I do regret pointing it out; it was just one of the first things OrthoTrauma has ever posted that made me consider them more negatively, so it caught me off guard. Usually their posts are on point.

 

[Newyawk]

I mean, I agree that they have no buiness teaching students, and there should be some recourse for that.
I just don't think that it's a bad thing that she's good with her patients, since she does have that job also.

A bad teacher/good doctor is a poor fit for her current position, and students suffer.

A bad teacher/bad doctor is a poor fit for ANY healthcare position, and students AND patients suffer.

Yup, exactly the response I predicted, and my own doesn't change. Not a check your privilege thing, just me saying what I see in my daily life.

Not attacking, just disagreeing with them (and you, for the record). Those are not the same thing.
I acknowledge the stereotypes; they don't fit my own experiences (the most passive aggressive/verbally aggressive thing I've ever seen done in the hospital was carried out by a male vascular surgeon) and I also think that it's worth acknowledging the context that breeds them.

But, as I said earlier, this just turns into everyone arguing their own anecdotes and it's pointless. So I won't derail the thread further. Go ahead and consider all of my points ceded, your arguments won, and we can avoid the dogpile and the massive derailing of this thread as everyone tells their OB/GYN horror stories. I do regret pointing it out; it was just one of the first things OrthoTrauma has ever posted that made me consider them more negatively, so it caught me off guard. Usually their posts are on point.

Love how youre referring to her as "they, them" when she is clearly a woman...

Your responses are as predictable as anyone elses on this forum. In fact, after reading her post i was scrolling down knowing a response from you would be there

 

[Redpancreas]

OP this sounds terrible and I would take this higher up. The Clerkship Director’s job is not to be another critic but be another advocate for you and it sounds like she’s not. If what you typed her is the whole story and you didn’t have any other things that would give you 1s/2s, I would take this issue to the Dean of Clerkship and ask for:

1. What can be done about your written evaluations? Those are included in your deans letter and in my experience, negative comments can be a pretty big deal because a lot of schools don’t even have that.

2. The grade. Some posters seem to think it’s not a big deal but tier of IM if you’re seeking fellowship or academic medicine is a huge deal. Getting a pass will lock you out of many decent programs despite a good step 1 score. You’ll still probably match well, but not at least getting HP may be small red flag.

 

[NeurologyHopeful2018]

OP this sounds terrible and I would take this higher up. The Clerkship Director’s job is not to be another critic but be another advocate for you and it sounds like she’s not. If what you typed her is the whole story and you didn’t have any other things that would give you 1s/2s, I would take this issue to the Dean of Clerkship and ask for:

1. What can be done about your written evaluations? Those are included in your deans letter and in my experience, negative comments can be a pretty big deal because a lot of schools don’t even have that.

2. The grade. Some posters seem to think it’s not a big deal but tier of IM if you’re seeking fellowship or academic medicine is a huge deal. Getting a pass will lock you out of many decent programs despite a good step 1 score. You’ll still probably match well, but not at least getting HP may be small red flag.

Agree - advocate to have those nasty comments removed. But be realistic that your grade of Pass will not likely change.

 

[KonoMDda]

1. What can be done about your written evaluations? Those are included in your deans letter and in my experience, negative comments can be a pretty big deal because a lot of schools don’t even have that.

2. The grade. Some posters seem to think it’s not a big deal but tier of IM if you’re seeking fellowship or academic medicine is a huge deal. Getting a pass will lock you out of many decent programs despite a good step 1 score. You’ll still probably match well, but not at least getting HP may be small red flag.

This is what I’m worried about. I did talk to my dean and he said that only comments about my actual performance would be included in the deans letter, and he said he felt that the comments were attacking me personally rather than commenting on my performance. So I don’t think that will be a problem. I’m more worried about the grade. I know there are several threads about how getting a pass or high pass in IM can shut you out of top tier residencies, but what about a pass in other unrelated core clerkships? And I’m also nervous about being asked about the pass on interviews, probably even more so if the negative comments aren’t included. I don’t really know how to explain what went wrong without sounding like I was blaming the preceptor. I will of course say I reflected on my performance and learned from the situation, but I honestly don’t know how to explain the grade diplomatically.

 

[WiseOne]

If the comments are not going to be in your MSPE, you'll be fine. Will you get into respectable academic programs? If the rest of your application is in shape, I would say yes, one pass is not going to tank your application. Top programs is a separate question and are no guarantee anyhow.

 

[NeurologyHopeful2018]

This is what I’m worried about. I did talk to my dean and he said that only comments about my actual performance would be included in the deans letter, and he said he felt that the comments were attacking me personally rather than commenting on my performance. So I don’t think that will be a problem. I’m more worried about the grade. I know there are several threads about how getting a pass or high pass in IM can shut you out of top tier residencies, but what about a pass in other unrelated core clerkships? And I’m also nervous about being asked about the pass on interviews, probably even more so if the negative comments aren’t included. I don’t really know how to explain what went wrong without sounding like I was blaming the preceptor. I will of course say I reflected on my performance and learned from the situation, but I honestly don’t know how to explain the grade diplomatically.

What is the distribution of grades at your school? If half of the people gets P then thats not a red flag at all.

I have ALL passes throughout med school - but I still matched into a reputable academic program.

 

[KonoMDda]

I feel that the pass actually significantly alters my app, unfortunately. I was AOA eligible and would have been listed in the top quartile or whatever on the deans letter before this, but a pass disqualified me from getting these distinctions at my school. It sucks because overall, my GPA is still pretty high since this was a shorter rotation, but I’m automatically dropped down because of a P. It just sucks that this happened at the very end of third year because everything was going great up until then. Now, somehow a couple of bad days defines where I stand compared to my classmates and what programs see with their superficial review of my app. It’s like three years of hard work down the drain. If it was just a pass, I’d be fine with it, but it significantly alters my app on face value.

Sorry, don’t mean to whine. Just frustrated right now. I was getting over it, but just mulling over the consequences really stinks.

 

[KonoMDda]

Most people get high passes. You have to do something seriously wrong to get a pass. It’s usually due to scoring extremely low on the shelf, though, not clinical evals.

 

[WiseOne]

I think you believe that you were on-track to match into some top program if this did not happen and I think you need to re-evaluate that. Did this change your application as opposed to getting an honors in the rotation? Of course. The question is how much did it change your application and I think you are catastrophizing a little bit. I think it might drop you from getting your #1 program to #2 or 3 program not #10.

 

[KonoMDda]

I would not say that I was on track to matching at these places but I would definitely have felt more confident in my application to those tippy top schools. Would I be shocked if I didn’t get interviews from them if I had AOA and all that? Hell no. I know that it’s a crapshoot for the top programs. But I feel like my current situation takes me out of the running completely. Again, I’m not trying to go to Harvard or anything but I did have some dream schools that would be considered reaches for anyone. But I can’t change the grade so I’ll just have to deal with it. I’ll get over it eventually. There are a ton of great IM programs out there that I would be privileged to train at if given the opportunity.

 

[IMreshopeful]

I would not say that I was on track to matching at these places but I would definitely have felt more confident in my application to those tippy top schools. Would I be shocked if I didn’t get interviews from them if I had AOA and all that? Hell no. I know that it’s a crapshoot for the top programs. But I feel like my current situation takes me out of the running completely. Again, I’m not trying to go to Harvard or anything but I did have some dream schools that would be considered reaches for anyone. But I can’t change the grade so I’ll just have to deal with it. I’ll get over it eventually. There are a ton of great IM programs out there that I would be privileged to train at if given the opportunity.

I get that SDN is a place where, by and large, a big proportion of posters are people who self select for either having very high clerkship grades/scores/AOA what have you (OR the polar opposite - people with abysmal grades who are looking for help). However, I think you need to look at the big perspective.

Your grades, scores, and clinical evals by and large are very good. There’s nothing that suggests that you will do poorly in interviews or the match. You’re also an MD student at a high ranked school from the sound of it - so you are going to match probably at a high tier program where you will be successful in procuring your cards/GI/whatever fellowship you’re aiming for. Also, where you go for residency, while it matters, is not everything. You can go to a more middle tier residency and still do very well in your career. When you’re in practice, unless your aim is to be the top of the top of the academic tier (which is my personal hell), you will still be a respected physician who will care for his patients well.

So my advice is - take the pass, move on, avoid this attending for the rest of your time there, excel wherever you go for residency and fellowship, and have a wonderful career. And in the end remember that life is more than just a job - it’s what you make of it with the people who surround you.

 

[IMreshopeful]

OP this sounds terrible and I would take this higher up. The Clerkship Director’s job is not to be another critic but be another advocate for you and it sounds like she’s not. If what you typed her is the whole story and you didn’t have any other things that would give you 1s/2s, I would take this issue to the Dean of Clerkship and ask for:

1. What can be done about your written evaluations? Those are included in your deans letter and in my experience, negative comments can be a pretty big deal because a lot of schools don’t even have that.

2. The grade. Some posters seem to think it’s not a big deal but tier of IM if you’re seeking fellowship or academic medicine is a huge deal. Getting a pass will lock you out of many decent programs despite a good step 1 score. You’ll still probably match well, but not at least getting HP may be small red flag.

I got a pass in medical school in my OB/Gyn clerkship. Got plenty of good interviews due to my H in medicine. Nobody gave a crap what my terrible OB preceptors thought of me. I don’t think it matters all that much in the long run.

Again it depends on your goals. If you want to work at Man’s Greatest Hospital as the new nationwide expert in XYZ variant of some disease and run a basic science lab supervising pipetters while seeing patients once every three months, academic tiering is important. If you want to go into practice and take care of patients, it’s less so.