DO Chance ACGME Internal med fellowship

[Noproblem0]

Hey guys,

I am debating on attending KCU next year and am aspiring to become a cardiologist. I understand that although DOs can specialize in anything I was wondering if there are any biases in regards to ACGME fellowships after doing a ACGME internal medicine residency. I chose to go the DO route instead of MD because I didn't really care about the initials at the end of my name and a lot of DOs get into primary care residencies, plus OMM seemed cool. I also underestimated the mcat and studied it for just 2 weeks and messed up...

Will becoming a DO hinder my chances at a internal med sub specialty? My option if there is a strong bias will be to repeat the MCAT and wait another year (stats: 3.95 gpa, mcat: 506) and try for MD. However, I am really happy with KCU and would love to be a DO..but I'm worried about my long term goals.

Please let me know! Thanks

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[SlugMD]

First of all there plenty of DO cardiologists. About 2/3 of DO's who want cardiology, match into it.

I wouldn't not turn down a DO acceptance, especially a great school like KCU to apply to MD next year. You might not ever get into a MD school and turning down a DO acceptance would blacklist you at most, if not all DO schools, should you apply again.

Go with KCU and don't look back. If you work hard and do great on Step 1 and 2 then you will match into a good IM program followed by a cardiology fellowship.

The only person that will stop you from being a cardiologist is YOU. Not the letters after your name.

 

[Noproblem0]

First of all there plenty of DO cardiologists. About 2/3 of DO's who want cardiology, match into it.

I wouldn't not turn down a DO acceptance, especially a great school like KCU to apply to MD next year. You might not ever get into a MD school and turning down a DO acceptance would blacklist you at most, if not all DO schools, should you apply again.

Go with KCU and don't look back. If you work hard and do great on Step 1 and 2 then you will match into a good IM program followed by a cardiology fellowship.

The only person that will stop you from being a cardiologist is YOU. Not the letters after you name.

That's what I was hoping to hear, thank you!!

 

[SlugMD]

That's what I was hoping to hear, thank you!!

You are very welcome. Believe in yourself and your vision.

One more plug for KCU, they have an insanely great curriculum that has yielded great scores. You will be just fine.

I'll be starting at BCOM this Fall and their curriculum is based off KCU's integrated systems-based spiral. I hope they implement just as well so I can get a KCU-like experience.

 

[IslandStyle808]

You are very welcome. Believe in yourself and your vision.

One more plug for KCU, they have an insanely great curriculum that has yielded great scores. You will be just fine.

I'll be starting at BCOM this Fall and their curriculum is based off KCU's integrated systems-based spiral. I hope they implement just as well so I can get a KCU-like experience.

The faculty who implemented it at BCOM were from RVU, so more of the RVU experience. However, the originators were actually TCOM if I recall correctly.

 

[SlugMD]

The faculty who implemented it at BCOM were from RVU, so more of the RVU experience. However, the originators were actually TCOM if I recall correctly.

Cool, I actually didn't know TCOM was where it started. I was originally referring to KCU being the originators. I had thought that RVU started doing it after KCU then BCOM.

(Now that I think about it, I have never researched TCOM because it's not on AACOMAS.)

 

[Noproblem0]

haha really excited to try the curriculum

 

[AlteredScale]

The faculty who implemented it at BCOM were from RVU, so more of the RVU experience. However, the originators were actually TCOM if I recall correctly.

Dr Dubin helped the faculty at bcom with the curriculum, mirroring what was being used at RVU and kcu. The masterminds behind the curriculum however are still at kcu and came from RVU.

I will say that the one thing that makes the kcu curriculum extremely unique is that it is constantly changing every year based on student feedback and performance. Now that we have a new dean (another one from TCOM who was an IM PD at UConnecticut Medical Center and Botsford Hospital), I'm sure it will change even more.


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[IslandStyle808]

Dr Dubin helped the faculty at bcom with the curriculum, mirroring what was being used at RVU and kcu. The masterminds behind the curriculum however are still at kcu and came from RVU.

I will say that the one thing that makes the kcu curriculum extremely unique is that it is constantly changing every year based on student feedback and performance. Now that we have a new dean (another one from TCOM who was an IM PD at UConnecticut Medical Center and Botsford Hospital), I'm sure it will change even more.


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Sorry meant to say the people administering the system are from RVU. You're right that Dr. Dubin was the originator of the system.

 

[hawthorn9797]

I am also intersted in cardiology and will be matriculating to KCU this summer. I know people say the match list is not a great way to predict your success in matching into a specific specialty but I cant help but be optimistic after seeing the ridiculously competitive residency locations that KCU grads get matched into.... maybe @AlteredScale can comment on this (am I being overly optimistic or nah? btw totally know who you are now 92% sure, mums the word)

From what I have read, if you go to go to KCU and do very well on boards, no specialty is out of reach completely (im talking Mayo Derm boiiiii)

 

[AlteredScale]

I am also intersted in cardiology and will be matriculating to KCU this summer. I know people say the match list is not a great way to predict your success in matching into a specific specialty but I cant help but be optimistic after seeing the ridiculously competitive residency locations that KCU grads get matched into.... maybe @AlteredScale can comment on this (am I being overly optimistic or nah? btw totally know who you are now 92% sure, mums the word)

From what I have read, if you go to go to KCU and do very well on boards, no specialty is out of reach completely (im talking Mayo Derm boiiiii)

Whats nice about our school is that there is absolutely no pigeon-holing to do primary care. We were told that the 2018 year will be a 60/40 splits between primary care matched and specialty matches and ours will be a 50/50 splits.

When it comes to those ultramegararepepe matches for DO schools like Derm/General Surgery at Mayo, ENT at Tulane, etc etc it is a mixture of a multitude of things that go far beyond the school. IMO these are strong academic skills (I am aware that one of these students was 95th percentile on USMLE and I believe got a perfect COMLEX score), a strong interest in academics/research (the ENT match to tulane did 2 years of bench work at KU med while in school, this isn't as plausible now with the new curriculum), strong mentorship/networking (the school really doesn't have a good way to connect students to alumni and moreover does nothing to provide access that information for one reason or another).

These are all things that a DO student can do anywhere. And while KCU provides a huge part of being competitive in the way of wrecking you the first 2 years to do as well as possible on boards, it is up to the student to push themselves even further to pursue that specialty.

 

[AlteredScale]

Hey guys,

I am debating on attending KCU next year and am aspiring to become a cardiologist. I understand that although DOs can specialize in anything I was wondering if there are any biases in regards to ACGME fellowships after doing a ACGME internal medicine residency. I chose to go the DO route instead of MD because I didn't really care about the initials at the end of my name and a lot of DOs get into primary care residencies, plus OMM seemed cool. I also underestimated the mcat and studied it for just 2 weeks and messed up...

Will becoming a DO hinder my chances at a internal med sub specialty? My option if there is a strong bias will be to repeat the MCAT and wait another year (stats: 3.95 gpa, mcat: 506) and try for MD. However, I am really happy with KCU and would love to be a DO..but I'm worried about my long term goals.

Please let me know! Thanks

Going to be blunt, it is easier to go into fellowship as an MD. Why? Because you do not close any doors in the way of residences for strong IM programs (a key component in matching to a strong fellowship, yep you have to go through the entire match process again).

Now is it impossible to match cardio as a DO? Of course not. One of my classmates SO's recently matched to UCincinnati for Cardiology. They completed their IM residency at KU Med (KCU is somewhat of a feeder school for their IM program).

Also consider this. KCU is a great school. But KCU lacks a strong IM department (a whopping 3-4 faculty make up this dept). When you go to an MD school you will most definitely have a strong dept for IM and moreover, will have faculty in that dept who carry weight in the realm of academic medicine and can vouch for you in their letter. This type letter can impact you chances of going to Icahn Mt. Sinai, UCSF, UCLA, UCSD, BMC, BIDMC, BWH, MGH, Tulane, Vandy, UTSW, UWashington (1-2 DOs have matched here), BJH/WashU, Utah, UColorado, UMiami, UNC, Duke, Yale, Cornell and Columbia/NYP, NYU Langone (hopefully you're understanding that these are places that a DOs have a near impossible or extremely hard time landing an interview despite having the good grades and the research.

This isn't fear mongering. It's simply laying it out straight. You're going to have to fight the good fight to get into a university IM program to best increase your chances of matching into cards down the road. It can be done. But you can save yourself much headache by applying and getting into an MD school.

 

[Alienman52]

First of all there plenty of DO cardiologists. About 2/3 of DO's who want cardiology, match into it.

I wouldn't not turn down a DO acceptance, especially a great school like KCU to apply to MD next year. You might not ever get into a MD school and turning down a DO acceptance would blacklist you at most, if not all DO schools, should you apply again.

Go with KCU and don't look back. If you work hard and do great on Step 1 and 2 then you will match into a good IM program followed by a cardiology fellowship.

The only person that will stop you from being a cardiologist is YOU. Not the letters after your name.

This. Take the acceptance. There are plenty of DO cardiologists out there. Do well on boards. It's not worth risking not going to medical school over a slight decreased chance at becoming a cardiologist.


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[Noproblem0]

Thanks for the input guys. I think based on this I will stick with KCU!

 

[Noproblem0]

Going to also hope the merger would make those places a bit more open to DOs !

 

[SurgDoc95]

Thanks for the input guys. I think based on this I will stick with KCU!

See ya on July 24th for Orientation week! =D

 

[SurgDoc95]

Going to also hope the merger would make those places a bit more open to DOs !

Well look at it this way, without the merger the ACGME was threatening to lock DO graduates out of fellowships so hopefully the standardizing of GME for both MD/DOs will open up Cardio/Heme-Onc/etc. fellowships.

For the record I am also very interested in Cardio, specifically invasive cardiology

 

[Mad Jack]

Your fellowship chances depend on your residency, not your DO/MD status. Get into an academic residency and your chances are extremely high.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

The biggest limitation to a cardiology or GI fellowship is where you did your general IM training. If you come from a community program, you have an uphill battle. Just make sure you can match into a University program, preferably one with a Cardiology fellowship so you can get LORs or perhaps match there.

 

[Goro]

N=1; I just found out one of my grads is now in a fellowship at a Harvard-class school. I can't remember if it was IM or not, but it was NOT Primary Care, Psych EM, or PM&R.

Hey guys,

I am debating on attending KCU next year and am aspiring to become a cardiologist. I understand that although DOs can specialize in anything I was wondering if there are any biases in regards to ACGME fellowships after doing a ACGME internal medicine residency. I chose to go the DO route instead of MD because I didn't really care about the initials at the end of my name and a lot of DOs get into primary care residencies, plus OMM seemed cool. I also underestimated the mcat and studied it for just 2 weeks and messed up...

Will becoming a DO hinder my chances at a internal med sub specialty? My option if there is a strong bias will be to repeat the MCAT and wait another year (stats: 3.95 gpa, mcat: 506) and try for MD. However, I am really happy with KCU and would love to be a DO..but I'm worried about my long term goals.

Please let me know! Thanks

 

[Noproblem0]

N=1; I just found out one of my grads is now in a fellowship at a Harvard-class school. I can't remember if it was IM or not, but it was NOT Primary Care, Psych EM, or PM&R.

Feeling pretty excited having Goro post on my thread

 

[Noproblem0]

I know first hand that the PD at KU-MED IM said "I'm very impressed with KCU students. I wish more would apply to our program."
OP, I'd think if you did well at KCU you'd have no trouble with matching to cardiology.

That sounds good thanks for your input!

 

[MADD!!!]

Hey guys,

I am debating on attending KCU next year and am aspiring to become a cardiologist. I understand that although DOs can specialize in anything I was wondering if there are any biases in regards to ACGME fellowships after doing a ACGME internal medicine residency. I chose to go the DO route instead of MD because I didn't really care about the initials at the end of my name and a lot of DOs get into primary care residencies, plus OMM seemed cool. I also underestimated the mcat and studied it for just 2 weeks and messed up...

Will becoming a DO hinder my chances at a internal med sub specialty? My option if there is a strong bias will be to repeat the MCAT and wait another year (stats: 3.95 gpa, mcat: 506) and try for MD. However, I am really happy with KCU and would love to be a DO..but I'm worried about my long term goals.

Please let me know! Thanks

Like everyone said, chances are higher as an MD, but by about 20-25%. Is it worth waiting an extra year, retaking the MCAT, reapplying to a whole bunch of MD schools and spending grands just to have a 20-25% higher chance? Probably not. Combine that with what no one else seems to be talking about here... Cards fellowships are readily increasing year after year, and the gap of those who match vs. don't is diminishing. Also, the field itself seems to be going more downhill as more students are looking for easier gigs than Cards. The money is great, but the lifestyle is tough. So, even you might end up changing your mind once you learn more about the field.

Long story short. If you do well on the boards all options will be open for you. And you don't need to match into a "top" academic IM program, any academic IM program will do. Or, preferably, any program that has a Cards fellowship at the same hospital so you can have the best chances of matching there and/or at least performing research with the fellows to maximize your resume.

EDIT: ALSO, about 1/3 or more of Cards fellows every year are Non-U.S. IMG's. If they can do it, so can you.

 

[Noproblem0]

Like everyone said, chances are higher as an MD, but by about 20-25%. Is it worth waiting an extra year, retaking the MCAT, reapplying to a whole bunch of MD schools and spending grands just to have a 20-25% higher chance? Probably not. Combine that with what no one else seems to be talking about here... Cards fellowships are readily increasing year after year, and the gap of those who match vs. don't is diminishing. Also, the field itself seems to be going more downhill as more students are looking for easier gigs than Cards. The money is great, but the lifestyle is tough. So, even you might end up changing your mind once you learn more about the field.

Long story short. If you do well on the boards all options will be open for you. And you don't need to match into a "top" academic IM program, any academic IM program will do. Or, preferably, any program that has a Cards fellowship at the same hospital so you can have the best chances of matching there and/or at least performing research with the fellows to maximize your resume.

EDIT: ALSO, about 1/3 or more of Cards fellows every year are Non-U.S. IMG's. If they can do it, so can you.

Thanks man! Those stats really help put things in perspective. Looks like I'm just going to have to go ham on the boards! Sounds good to know that I have the opportunity.

 

[235009]

Your fellowship chances depend on your residency, not your DO/MD status. Get into an academic residency and your chances are extremely high.

....but residency placement depends heavily on your "DO/MD status"
You make it sound so easy but if you look at DO match lists across the board a small minority of folks who go into IM end up at university programs (15-20%) and of those most are low-tier programs.

N=1; I just found out one of my grads is now in a fellowship at a Harvard-class school. I can't remember if it was IM or not, but it was NOT Primary Care, Psych EM, or PM&R.

Your posts are so infuriatingly pedestrian and ill-informed they may as well have been written by a pre-med. Stop embarrassing yourself by posting about residency and come to terms with the fact you know absolutely nothing about it.

 

[MADD!!!]

....but residency placement depends heavily on your "DO/MD status"
You make it sound so easy but if you look at DO match lists across the board a small minority of folks who go into IM end up at university programs (15-20%) and of those most are low-tier programs.



Your posts are so infuriatingly pedestrian and ill-informed they may as well have been written by a pre-med. Stop embarrassing yourself by posting about residency and come to terms with the fact you know absolutely nothing about it.

Sorry, but you're the one who's too over critical on the subject, not everyone else. Why do I say this?

You entered Pulm/CC and stated how you thought it would've been nearly impossible to get that if you went the DO route. Looking at it now, it's not that hard to get into (not saying it's easy), but it's not as hard as you make it sound. Ppl get places, and yea less DO's even want to sub-specialize. Many MD's at academic IM residencies end up not specializing either.

1/3 of Cards fellows are non-US img's, don't feel like looking up the stats for others. Anyways, sorry to break it to ya but DO's are going places. And when you're in Goro's shoes to see how much the DO profession has progressed over the years and how the glass ceiling is shattering finally, you'd react the same way he would too.

 

[LutGholein]

Hey guys,

I am debating on attending KCU next year and am aspiring to become a cardiologist. I understand that although DOs can specialize in anything I was wondering if there are any biases in regards to ACGME fellowships after doing a ACGME internal medicine residency. I chose to go the DO route instead of MD because I didn't really care about the initials at the end of my name and a lot of DOs get into primary care residencies, plus OMM seemed cool. I also underestimated the mcat and studied it for just 2 weeks and messed up...

Will becoming a DO hinder my chances at a internal med sub specialty? My option if there is a strong bias will be to repeat the MCAT and wait another year (stats: 3.95 gpa, mcat: 506) and try for MD. However, I am really happy with KCU and would love to be a DO..but I'm worried about my long term goals.

Please let me know! Thanks

In all honesty you'd be wasting a potential year of attending salary without any guarantee that you would gain an MD acceptance(and shutting down any chance at the DOs you applied to). KCUMB is an amazing established school and it's in a more DO friendly region(midwest) that has plenty of DOs in academic IM residencies. I'd take the acceptance and run with it!

 

[Mad Jack]

....but residency placement depends heavily on your "DO/MD status"
You make it sound so easy but if you look at DO match lists across the board a small minority of folks who go into IM end up at university programs (15-20%) and of those most are low-tier programs.



Your posts are so infuriatingly pedestrian and ill-informed they may as well have been written by a pre-med. Stop embarrassing yourself by posting about residency and come to terms with the fact you know absolutely nothing about it.

Even a lower academic placement will probably get you a spot in cards somewhere if you work hard. Hell, there's even a few community programs in the northeast that send a substantial portion of their graduates into cards (Bridgeport comes to mind immediately, in 2015 they sent half their graduates into cardiology). What it comes down to is that you are going to have a harder time getting into certain programs as a DO, but if you're willing to be geographically flexible and work hard, you can probably get into an IM specialty down the line.

It's going to sound crazy though, but at least a third of my class has wanted to do primary care since day 1, so they're looking for community programs in FM, IM, and peds that are close to home, which is reflected in our match lists. The students that don't make it into decent IM programs that wanted to are usually the sort that didn't have the board scores for it- you're not going to end up academic with a Step 1 of 200, sorry kid. There's not really many "I scored 230ish on Step 1 and couldn't get an academic spot" stories, and the few that exist are usually of the red flag/didn't apply broadly enough variety.

 

[acapnial]

Even a lower academic placement will probably get you a spot in cards somewhere if you work hard. Hell, there's even a few community programs in the northeast that send a substantial portion of their graduates into cards (Bridgeport comes to mind immediately, in 2015 they sent half their graduates into cardiology). What it comes down to is that you are going to have a harder time getting into certain programs as a DO, but if you're willing to be geographically flexible and work hard, you can probably get into an IM specialty down the line.

It's going to sound crazy though, but at least a third of my class has wanted to do primary care since day 1, so they're looking for community programs in FM, IM, and peds that are close to home, which is reflected in our match lists. The students that don't make it into decent IM programs that wanted to are usually the sort that didn't have the board scores for it- you're not going to end up academic with a Step 1 of 200, sorry kid. There's not really many "I scored 230ish on Step 1 and couldn't get an academic spot" stories, and the few that exist are usually of the red flag/didn't apply broadly enough variety.

To be fair, on my interview trail, a PD told me that DO's are still at a disadvantage in the fellowship match to an extent, and that I should match at a more prestigious, more academic residency if I want to do a competitive subspecialty (this was a community program that sends people to cards a little less often than once a year). He wasn't saying it couldn't be done from his program, but obviously there's a big difference in what kind of chance you have and what kind of work you have to do to get a cardiology spot from an academic vs community program.

 

[Noproblem0]

Thanks @MADD!!! and @MeatTornado it's good to see both views on the issue. Although it does confuse me a bit it's good to see

Even a lower academic placement will probably get you a spot in cards somewhere if you work hard. Hell, there's even a few community programs in the northeast that send a substantial portion of their graduates into cards (Bridgeport comes to mind immediately, in 2015 they sent half their graduates into cardiology). What it comes down to is that you are going to have a harder time getting into certain programs as a DO, but if you're willing to be geographically flexible and work hard, you can probably get into an IM specialty down the line.

It's going to sound crazy though, but at least a third of my class has wanted to do primary care since day 1, so they're looking for community programs in FM, IM, and peds that are close to home, which is reflected in our match lists. The students that don't make it into decent IM programs that wanted to are usually the sort that didn't have the board scores for it- you're not going to end up academic with a Step 1 of 200, sorry kid. There's not really many "I scored 230ish on Step 1 and couldn't get an academic spot" stories, and the few that exist are usually of the red flag/didn't apply broadly enough variety.

Thanks! I plan to work my a** off and I don't really care what location I have to do my residency/fellowship at. Like what most members of the thread are saying I think it'll be a better idea to stick with the DO and work harder instead of risking no acceptances trying again for MD.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Thanks! I plan to work my a** off and I don't really care what location I have to do my residency/fellowship at. Like what most members of the thread are saying I think it'll be a better idea to stick with the DO and work harder instead of risking no acceptances trying again for MD.

It's a huge risk that may or may not pay off. If you'd gotten into let's say BCOM or another very new program I'd say go ahead and take the risk, but KCU/PCOM/RVU are all very good programs that will allow you to match well. (Along with the public schools)

 

[Noproblem0]

Another question, I probably already know the answer for this one but just to confirm: is the chances of getting an academic IM residency as a DO higher than an IMG MD from a big 4 caribbean school/ireland/australia/etc?

And would an academic IM residency also be needed to get into less competitive IM sub-specialties such as nephrology?

 

[MADD!!!]

Another question, I probably already know the answer for this one but just to confirm: is the chances of getting an academic IM residency as a DO higher than an IMG MD from a big 4 caribbean school/ireland/australia/etc?

And would an academic IM residency also be needed to get into less competitive IM sub-specialties such as nephrology?

I can definitely answer your second question. Nephro is by far the easiest fellowship on the market. Demand is so low they had about a 53% fill rate AFTER the non-US IMG's. So yea each fellowship is different in terms of competitiveness.

 

[acapnial]

Another question, I probably already know the answer for this one but just to confirm: is the chances of getting an academic IM residency as a DO higher than an IMG MD from a big 4 caribbean school/ireland/australia/etc?

And would an academic IM residency also be needed to get into less competitive IM sub-specialties such as nephrology?

Generally DO's and caribs have more or less the same chance. If a place accepts one there is a strong chance they accept the other. I have never seen a grad from australia or ireland on the trail at all.

Edit: Having said that, I would say that the caribs I met on the trail seemed less sure of their chances of getting a good match on the trail than the other DO's I met so maybe it's a little harder for them. But I did see caribs either interviewing or being residents at almost every place that interviewed me.

 

[Noproblem0]

Generally DO's and caribs have more or less the same chance. If a place accepts one there is a strong chance they accept the other. I have never seen a grad from australia or ireland on the trail at all.

Edit: Having said that, I would say that the caribs I met on the trail seemed less sure of their chances of getting a good match on the trail than the other DO's I met so maybe it's a little harder for them. But I did see caribs either interviewing or being residents at almost every place that interviewed me.

Thanks, was kind of hoping there was a huge difference!

 

[MADD!!!]

Thanks, was kind of hoping there was a huge difference!

There is a difference. Not in terms of locations, But in terms of ratios. Imagine 50% of your class not getting a residency. Period. That happens in the Carrib world but not the D.O. World.

 

[dwgrubbs1s]

....but residency placement depends heavily on your "DO/MD status"
You make it sound so easy but if you look at DO match lists across the board a small minority of folks who go into IM end up at university programs (15-20%) and of those most are low-tier programs.



Your posts are so infuriatingly pedestrian and ill-informed they may as well have been written by a pre-med. Stop embarrassing yourself by posting about residency and come to terms with the fact you know absolutely nothing about it.

So it is high tier residency or bust? The low-mid tier residents get no fellowship spots? Stop.... Sure it is easier if you was in a top tier residency program, but that is a very small percentage of physicians. Obviously someone else besides top tier IM residents are getting into sub specialties. Must be those pesky low-mid tier residents.

 

[AlteredScale]

So it is high tier residency or bust? The low-mid tier residents get no fellowship spots? Stop.... Sure it is easier if you was in a top tier residency program, but that is a very small percentage of physicians. Obviously someone else besides top tier IM residents are getting into sub specialties. Must be those pesky low-mid tier residents.

I don't think MT is saying that at all. What he's getting at is that the majority of DOs match into IM at community hospitals. Of which (and at least in comparison to university programs) there is a large hill to climb to pursue fellowship. I don't need to list the reasons why.

In addition, I've looked at multiple fellowship match lists and have found that a larger percentage of DOs end up going into hospitalist work. Whether that means they actually chose to pursue hospital medicine or whether they did not match into the fellowship they wanted to go into isn't known. When you come from an MD school that has the resources, research, and mentorship to build ones academic career, they are able to be as successful as possible in getting into a strong residency with an already superb CV, hone it in even further, and match into fellowship with much more ease than a DO who lacked all those things and has not really built their foundation in spearheading their academic career. Again, these are trends that I've seen and I am constantly looking at where DO residents go and how their CVs compare to their MD counterparts.

Again, not trying to defame or look down on DOs but these are observations of the collective whole and not just the n=1 "DO matched to Johns Hopkins so anything is possible". Anyone applying to DO schools deserves to know the uphill battle and what that battle actually means as supposed to some ambiguous, PC explanation.

Many MD's at academic IM residencies end up not specializing either.

Stats? I can assure you that unless they choose to go into a primary care focused IM track. Many many many enter fellowship after. Especially coming from university programs.

 

[Noproblem0]

Say I didn't get into an academic IM residency and still want to be a cardiologist, and after applying for the fellowship I don't get in...would working as a hospitalist for a couple years or so increase my chances? I have no problem with doing that for a few years; its a good job and good money. But from my volunteering, research, and shadowing they've all been targeted towards cardiology so it's something I am the most interested in and really want to be.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Say I didn't get into an academic IM residency and still want to be a cardiologist, and after applying for the fellowship I don't get in...would working as a hospitalist for a couple years or so increase my chances? I have no problem with doing that for a few years; its a good job and good money. But from my volunteering, research, and shadowing they've all been targeted towards cardiology so it's something I am the most interested in and really want to be.

Unfortunately, no. Medicine is one of those fields where the long you haven't been in training the less likely they will take for fellowship. So your best shot will be to get into the best academic residency possible and then apply. Or get into a community program with an in-house cardiology fellowship that favors its own residents.

 

[235009]

I don't think MT is saying that at all. What he's getting at is that the majority of DOs match into IM at community hospitals. Of which (and at least in comparison to university programs) there is a large hill to climb to pursue fellowship. I don't need to list the reasons why.

In addition, I've looked at multiple fellowship match lists and have found that a larger percentage of DOs end up choosing to go into hospitalist work. Whether that means they actually chose that or whether they did not match isn't know. When you come from an MD school that has the resources, research, and mentorship to build someone's academic career, they are able to be as successful as possible in getting into a strong residency with an already superb CV, hone it in even further, and match into fellowship with much more ease than the DO who lacked all those things and has no really built their foundation in spearheading their academic career. Again, these are trends that I've seen and I am constantly looking at where DO residents go and how their CVs compare to their MD counterparts.

Again, not trying to defame DOs but these are observations of everything and not just the n=1 "DO matched here so anything is possible". But anyone applying to DO schools deserves to know the uphill battle and what that battle actually means as supposed to some ambiguous explanation.

Stats? I can assure you that unless they choose to go into a primary care focused IM track. Many many many enter fellowship after. Especially coming from university programs.

I'm glad someone on this forum can read my posts without instantly becoming triggered. Thanks for explaining it. And for being sane.

Say I didn't get into an academic IM residency and still want to be a cardiologist, and after applying for the fellowship I don't get in...would working as a hospitalist for a couple years or so increase my chances? I have no problem with doing that for a few years; its a good job and good money. But from my volunteering, research, and shadowing they've all been targeted towards cardiology so it's something I am the most interested in and really want to be.

probably not. being a hospitalist typically doesn't boost your app.

You entered Pulm/CC and stated how you thought it would've been nearly impossible to get that if you went the DO route. Looking at it now, it's not that hard to get into (not saying it's easy), but it's not as hard as you make it sound. Ppl get places, and yea less DO's even want to sub-specialize. Many MD's at academic IM residencies end up not specializing either.

1/3 of Cards fellows are non-US img's, don't feel like looking up the stats for others. Anyways, sorry to break it to ya but DO's are going places. And when you're in Goro's shoes to see how much the DO profession has progressed over the years and how the glass ceiling is shattering finally, you'd react the same way he would too.

The reason I say it would've been impossible to get to where I am as a DO is because I matched at two places that don't even interview DOs.
You're right I will never "be in Goro's shoes" ....because he's not a physician, just some PhD basic science professor who knows nothing about the match, residency, fellowship, or being a physician. He has a vested financial interest in promoting the company's brand (the DO degree) regardless of the facts otherwise he'd be out of a job. SDN is basically his full time job. No successful academic has that much free time. Something doesn't add up.

 

[AlteredScale]

I'm glad someone on this forum can read my posts without instantly becoming triggered. Thanks for explaining it. And for being sane.

We are in very sensitive times here where hurt feelings are made because one disagrees.

Say I didn't get into an academic IM residency and still want to be a cardiologist, and after applying for the fellowship I don't get in...would working as a hospitalist for a couple years or so increase my chances? I have no problem with doing that for a few years; its a good job and good money. But from my volunteering, research, and shadowing they've all been targeted towards cardiology so it's something I am the most interested in and really want to be.

If you spend time reading the threads in the Internal Medicine forum you will see that the longer you spend between finishing residency and applying for residency, the more difficult it is to match into fellowship. As a hospitalist, you do not have protected research time and you essentially become a cog in the perpetual wheel of admits, consults, and frustrating management/administrative duties. Even more so if you are at a community hospital not affiliated with any university system. Just as a reminder, you CAN get into cards coming from a community hospital. But your best chances arise going to an academic IM residency.

I wanted to address this as well: I can understand that your entire undergrad life has been geared to cardiology, but you may 100% change your mind. Whether it's because you can't stand IM or swallow the fact that you have to spend 6 more years after medical school to pursue it, you will change your mind and consider other areas. In fact, you may take cardiovascular physiology in medical school and absolutely despise it and you'll be off looking elsewhere and guess what, that is OKAY. Too many times I see MS-0's stating they already know what subspecialty they want to do. I am an MS-2 and have realized just how foolish it is for me to say "I only want to do X" when I haven't even had a taste of the day to day life of these specialties in clinical rotations.

 

[Noproblem0]

We are in very sensitive times here where hurt feelings are made because one disagrees.



If you spend time reading the threads in the Internal Medicine forum you will see that the longer you spend between finishing residency and applying for residency, the more difficult it is to match into fellowship. As a hospitalist, you do not have protected research time and you essentially become a cog in the perpetual wheel of admits, consults, and frustrating management/administrative duties. Even more so if you are at a community hospital not affiliated with any university system. Just as a reminder, you CAN get into cards coming from a community hospital. But your best chances arise going to an academic IM residency.

I wanted to address this as well: I can understand that your entire undergrad life has been geared to cardiology, but you may 100% change your mind. Whether it's because you can't stand IM or swallow the fact that you have to spend 6 more years after medical school to pursue it, you will change your mind and consider other areas. In fact, you may take cardiovascular physiology in medical school and absolutely despise it and you'll be off looking elsewhere and guess what, that is OKAY. Too many times I see MS-0's stating they already know what subspecialty they want to do. I am an MS-2 and have realized just how foolish it is for me to say "I only want to do X" when I haven't even had a taste of the day to day life of these specialties in clinical rotations.

LOL thanks you're right anything can happen with regards to what kind of doc I want to be.

I'll take a look at the internal medicine forum to see if I can clarify any other questions I have. Thanks for the advice!

 

[Stagg737]

Hey guys,

I am debating on attending KCU next year and am aspiring to become a cardiologist. I understand that although DOs can specialize in anything I was wondering if there are any biases in regards to ACGME fellowships after doing a ACGME internal medicine residency. I chose to go the DO route instead of MD because I didn't really care about the initials at the end of my name and a lot of DOs get into primary care residencies, plus OMM seemed cool. I also underestimated the mcat and studied it for just 2 weeks and messed up...

Will becoming a DO hinder my chances at a internal med sub specialty? My option if there is a strong bias will be to repeat the MCAT and wait another year (stats: 3.95 gpa, mcat: 506) and try for MD. However, I am really happy with KCU and would love to be a DO..but I'm worried about my long term goals.

Please let me know! Thanks

To add with KCU, we have very good relations with KU overall (a lot of our attendings are KU grads or did residency there and some of our faculty are on staff there). Additionally we have a solid number of rotation positions in Joplin, MO which has the 4th largest cardiac catheterization lab in the country by volume of procedures.

Another question, I probably already know the answer for this one but just to confirm: is the chances of getting an academic IM residency as a DO higher than an IMG MD from a big 4 caribbean school/ireland/australia/etc?

And would an academic IM residency also be needed to get into less competitive IM sub-specialties such as nephrology?

Generally speaking US MD > DO >>>>> FMG (especially Carib). Sure, Carib grads will have an advantage at some places where the schools pay exorbitant amounts of money so their students can do clinical rotations there or programs that flat out say "no DOs" (which 95% of Carib students will be too weak to interview at anyway). However, generally speaking academic IM specialties will shut out most FMGs as quickly as DOs because there are US MDs lining up around the block to get in.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

However, generally speaking academic IM specialties will shut out most FMGs as quickly as DOs because there are US MDs lining up around the block to get in.

Yeah I don't think people understand just how competitive IM is at the top tier. At that level it can hold its own with any specialty, those IM residents at those top places could have been whatever kind of doctor they dang well pleased.