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Do DOs Have A Harder Time Getting Residencies?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by IWant2BeADoctor, Mar 28, 2007.

  1. IWant2BeADoctor

    IWant2BeADoctor License to Matriculate 2+ Year Member

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    What percentage of DOs get Residencies after graduation? I'm considering going applying to both DO and MD schools but I've heard that getting into residency could be harder for a DO than a MD...is this true?
     
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  3. Packamylase

    Packamylase MSIV 5+ Year Member

    Yeah, the D.O. degree is nice and all, because we get to learn OMM and stuff, but we NEVER get to actually treat any patients EVER because we can't do a residency. It's NOT fair!!!

    ;)
     
  4. spicedmanna

    spicedmanna Moderator Emeritus 7+ Year Member

    Uh... I don't know what to say, except your notion is completely false.
     
  5. Hernandez

    Hernandez Paranoid and Crotchety... Physician 10+ Year Member

    I don't think I've ever heard of anyone not getting a residency. I know only 1 MD student who didn't get a residency on their first try after a failed scramble attempt, I can't say the same about any DOs
     
  6. NickRiviera

    NickRiviera MS-Never 2+ Year Member

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    Careful there...the scramble affects more students than you might think. Although some students get stuck because they only want a certain specialty (e.g. Dermatology), a few at any school can get stuck because they didn't cut-it.

    There are less residency options for D.O. students who are looking at matching into an osteo residency. However, you can apply to match into allo as well, which gives you many more options. As many have said before, if you do well you can match where you want regardless of M.D. or D.O. degree.
     
  7. sunnyjohn

    sunnyjohn Got Mustard? 5+ Year Member

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    It will be even tougher to get a residency if you don't get in (and graduate) from any medical school, DO or MD.

    Do a search here. Apply to both.
     
  8. JasonUD

    JasonUD PGY-I 5+ Year Member

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    :thumbup: :thumbup:

    A DO can complete a DO or an MD residency while an MD can only do an MD residency. Therefore there are more opportunities for a DO searching out a residency than an MD.
     
  9. NickRiviera

    NickRiviera MS-Never 2+ Year Member

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    If someone knows this for sure, please chime in. I believe there are some MD residencies that are tougher to get into for D.O.s or won't even take D.O.s. Also, the osteo match is before the allo match and I believe there are some rules such as applying to both then bailing on the osteo match.

    Just do well and you won't have any problems.
     
  10. This man is well informed and just earned my respect for 2 days, so welcome to the starship Enterprise :D

    I've heard the same thing from several sources, so that's not good.
     
  11. DeLaughterDO

    DeLaughterDO Ghost in the Machine 10+ Year Member

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    I do know for sure:

    There are MD programs that are difficult to get into - say, derm, ortho, ENT, urology, etc. It is not JUST for DOs, it is for MDs as well. DOs have their own programs, which may make it a bit easier for DOs to get into the field, but it is still extremely difficult to get into some fields, regardless of your degree, board scores, LORs, and grades.

    I have heard that there are MD residency programs that absolutely will not accept any DOs into their programs, and that is their prerogative, since it is basically good-will that they allow us to participate in their programs in the first place. Under no circumstance do ACGME accredited programs HAVE to accept any DO graduate. Keep that in mind and pick up the phone and ask the programs you wish to apply to about it.

    Now, about the matches, I'm sure this has been covered 1000000000 times, so I'll just touch on it briefly:
    - the DO match is in February every year - about 1 month before the MD match. All DO residencies require a separate internship as your PGY1 year. There are many programs (IM, FP, Pedi, OB/GYN, others) that incorporate the internship as their first year - these are called "fast-track" programs. The programs that do not have "fast-track" internships will require an extra year over their MD counterparts.
    - the MD match is in March.
    - Now for the answer for your question - if you match in a DO PGY1 program (whether a separate internship or a "fast-track" program) you are automatically dropped from the NRMP (MD match) for that cycle. This does not happen if you only match for an advanced position (PGY2 or above).
    - About bailing on the DO match: The MD and DO matches used to be on the same day in mid-march. This exact problem would frequently occur - people would match in programs, and would take whichever one they liked best. This is a match violation and unfortunately, the violations happened more frequently on the DO side, with people keeping their MD program match. That is why the DO match is now a month earlier, to help prevent this. If you do match in the DO match in February, not only are you automatically removed from the NRMP match, if you later break your match agreement with the DO program to which you matched, you will be "black-balled" from the match in the future - both the AOA match and the NRMP.

    hope this long ramble helps,

    jd
     
    O-Block Uchiha likes this.
  12. I thought all A.O.A. residencies have the internship year built-in to them, except if you are in the 5 notorious states which require the extra internship year. :confused::confused:

    If not, here's what I can gather:

    A state like Utah may have A.O.A. residencies which have the internship year built-in and some residencies which don't have internship year built-in. You can choose to do either and you will be fine, except that you have to do one year extra with the latter option and you can't practice in one of the 5 notorious states with the former option.

    A state like one of the 5 notorious ones will only have A.O.A. residencies that require an extra internship year. Or do these states also offer "fast-track" residencies? If so and you do that fast-track residency, then one can't practice in his own state?? Pretty freaky if true.
     
  13. Hernandez

    Hernandez Paranoid and Crotchety... Physician 10+ Year Member

    You rarely have separate intern years (meaning you don't have to apply to the intern year and residency separately), however, many specialties still have a dedicated intern year. For instance, EM, most MD EM programs are 3 years, all AOA programs are 4 years due to the distinct intern year.
     
  14. DNA Helicase

    DNA Helicase Let's do this! 2+ Year Member

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    I really wish there was a forum called "stupid MD/DO questions."
     
  15. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned Banned 10+ Year Member

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    Maybe they would make me moderator
     
  16. Jack Daniel

    Jack Daniel In Memory of Riley Jane Moderator Emeritus 5+ Year Member

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    But, I think it's accurate to say that they can't discriminate against a better qualified DO candidate--since residency funding is federal.
     
  17. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned Banned 10+ Year Member

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    Doesnt matter

    Youre applying for a job. They can take your application, read it and then wipe their ass with it. They dont have to interview you or even ask for a deposit. Simply send you a rejection letter right off the bat.

    Government wont stand up for you against a competitive allopathic residency program. The AOA sure wont and your school wont "officially" stand up for you either.
     
  18. Jack Daniel

    Jack Daniel In Memory of Riley Jane Moderator Emeritus 5+ Year Member

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    Sigh :oops:
    At least it makes sense. The chances are high that the competitive MD residencies can easily fill their spots with super-competitive MD students.

    Their loss...
     
  19. Jack Daniel

    Jack Daniel In Memory of Riley Jane Moderator Emeritus 5+ Year Member

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    Also, I feel I must add...
    I really like "former moderator JP" much, much better than "moderator JP".
     
  20. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned Banned 10+ Year Member

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    Agreed. Now, not to say that a competitive DO should be afraid to apply to allopathic programs...by all means apply.

    But just keep in mind that some people apply to 100 plus programs for 5 interviews and still have to scramble.

    There ARE good osteopathic programs out there and there ARE good MD programs that are DO friendly
     
  21. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned Banned 10+ Year Member

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    Me too :thumbup:
     
  22. Arch Guillotti

    Arch Guillotti Senior Member Administrator Physician Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    LOL. This naive viewpoint is unrealistic at best.
     
  23. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned Banned 10+ Year Member

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    Agreed. But its funny to watch the kids dream.
     
  24. DeLaughterDO

    DeLaughterDO Ghost in the Machine 10+ Year Member

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    Actually;

    All AOA accredited residencies (a.k.a. DO residencies) will either have the internship built into it (i.e. "fast-track" - which does not require an extra year), will match both the internship and the advanced (PGY2+) years together ("linked" residencies), or will not have a linked internship, but will require that you match on your own to a separate internship. All of these options satisfy the AOA requirement for the "Traditional Osteopathic Rotating Internship," so your scenario of someone in one of the 5 states who completes a "fast-track" residency not being able to practice in that state is incorrect.

    I'll see if I can find the memo sent out by the AOA about the change they have made to post-graduate training and post it here. It may clear up some of the confusion - plus, it has what specialties do what kind of program...

    jd
     
  25. DeLaughterDO

    DeLaughterDO Ghost in the Machine 10+ Year Member

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    I agree with JPHazelton.

    Even though the funding for residency positions comes from the federal government, residency programs have total discretion with regards to accepting applications, interviews, and their final rank list. They do not have to accept applications from DO students (although I don't see how they would stop someone from applying, given it is all computerized and only requires a couple clicks of a mouse), nor invite DO students to interview, nor even place DO students on their rank list. Hell, they can choose what MD students to interview or put on their rank list.

    There really does not seem to be any sort of recourse in this - especially since program ROLs are known only to the program and NRMP. I can guarantee the NRMP doesn't care who is on a ROL, so long as they get their $$$$.

    In the end, if a program director for any residency out there - be it ortho-spino-rectal surgery or even Family medicine - does not want DOs in his/her program, there will be no DOs in the program. Is it fair? Sure it is. There are no guarantees anyone will match anywhere, and if the PD does not want to work with DOs, their loss.

    What can we do about it? Probably nothing, really, but wait until the old guard changes over and hope the next generation will be more willing to work with others.

    We could also hope against hope that the AOA finally gets its head out of its @ss and starts dually accrediting more ACGME programs. That way it would not matter where one completes one's residency and the question of DO/MD residencies would be moot. This would also allow for a single match to be run - how wonderful that would be!

    ahhh.. dreams...

    jd
     
  26. DeLaughterDO

    DeLaughterDO Ghost in the Machine 10+ Year Member

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    from https://www.do-online.org/index.cfm?PageID=sir_matchprotocol

    The AOA accredits three kinds of internships:

    Traditional Rotating: Institutions have flexibility in designing the composition of a traditional rotating internship. When interviewing for positions, students should discuss and negotiate directly with the institution about the specialty curricula included in a rotating internship.

    Special Emphasis: The focus of the internship is within a particular specialty, but the internship DOES NOT reduce the total number of years of postdoctoral training required for specialty training. Special emphasis internships can be offered in anesthesiology, emergency medicine, family medicine, general surgery, psychiatry and diagnostic radiology.

    Specialty Track: The internship may reduce the total number of years of postdoctoral training. Specialty track internships can be offered in internal medicine, internal medicine/pediatrics, obstetrics/gynecology, otolaryngology/facial plastic surgery, pediatrics, and urological surgery. Such programs can only be offered by institutions with existing AOA-approved osteopathic residencies in these specialties.

    In addition to specialty training within an internship, many positions are offered in the Match as combined internship/residency programs, as described in the next section. These programs link the internship program directly with a residency program for subsequent training in a particular specialty.

    During discussions with students, institutions should indicate the various options for specialty training and program types offered by the institution, and indicate how they expect applicants to designate preferences for each of the specialty curricula on their Rank Order Lists. As discussed above, for a match between a student and an institution to occur, both must indicate the same internship program on their Lists. It is the responsibility of the institution and the students to ensure the correct Code Number for each program is used when submitting Rank Order Lists. In previous years, a few expected matches did not occur because the student ranked a particular program in the institution while the institution ranked the student on a Rank Order List for a different program.


    Program Types Offered in the Match

    All programs offered in the Match are internship programs with positions beginning in 2007. However, the programs offered in the Match can be classified into two types:

    Internship-only programs: These programs involve a one-year commitment between the applicant and the institution for an OGME-1 internship position only, commencing in July 2007. For example, traditional rotating or special emphasis internship positions that are not linked to residency positions would be offered to applicants as an internship-only program in the Match.

    Combined internship/residency programs: These programs combine both an OGME-1 internship position commencing in July 2007 followed by an OGME-2 residency position in a particular specialty commencing in July 2008. Any type of internship program (traditional rotating, special emphasis, specialty track) may be linked with a residency program to form a combined internship/residency program.

    Applicants who match to a combined internship/residency program will start training in the internship program in 2007; however, assuming acceptable performance during the internship year, both the applicant and the residency program are also committed to each other for OGME-2 training beginning in 2008.

    For a combined internship/residency program, the OGME-1 internship and the OGME-2 residency will be offered together, as a single program in the Match. While in most cases the internship and residency programs will be in the same institution, this will not necessarily always be the case. A combined internship/residency program could consist of an internship at one institution, followed by a residency at a different institution. However, the link between the internship and residency will be established prior to listing the program for the Match. Each combined internship/residency program will be represented by a single, unique Code Number in the Match, and will be ranked by the students as a single program in the Match.
     
  27. Jack Daniel

    Jack Daniel In Memory of Riley Jane Moderator Emeritus 5+ Year Member

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    DeLaughter...appreciate your posts--good info. Thanks.
     
  28. JasonUD

    JasonUD PGY-I 5+ Year Member

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    I don't see how this is unrealistic...yeah there are some allopathic program directors out there that just won't accept a DO but there are more programs for a DO to apply for than an MD can apply for. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just don't see how that's not the case (maybe its just my naivity!!). I believe you're locked into an Osteopathic Residency Program once accepted but regardless, there are more programs for DO's to try for since we can apply both osteopathic and allopathic while our MD friends can only do allopathic.
     
  29. But the real key is that M.D.s will get preference in fields outside of anesthesiology, E.M., family practice or pediatrics. Just because D.O.s have access to allopathic programs doesn't mean they get equal pickings. This nepotism will lessen in the next 4 or 5 years as even more allopathic programs accept D.O.s, but it is there.

    It's clear that U.S. M.D.s have the best option because they have A LOT MORE RESIDENCIES, BECAUSE OF EQUAL FOOTING, to choose from in the first place. I also bet that there are lot more M.D. specialty residencies to choose from than A.O.A. programs, even when the ratio of grads. to spots is accounted for.
     
  30. Ah ha, that helps a lot! :) Does anyone know how many "fast-track" residencies are available?

    I know M.D. residencies don't have an "extra" internship year because all first-year M.D. residencies are also considered internships. But will it be a problem to the get the first-year of an M.D. residency approved in one of the 5 notorious states?
     
  31. StringerBell

    StringerBell It's the final countdown! 5+ Year Member

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    Wow, this is actually really good information (the kind of stuff that makes SDN such a valuable resource.) I am interpreting this to mean that participating in both Match processes means that you must accept the DO match, should you happen to match in an osteopathic residency...and thus, if you really want an allopathic residency, that you can't use the DO Match as a backup, and should really only participate in the allopathic match. Am I inferring correctly from your information?
     
  32. IDBasco

    IDBasco Atypical agent 7+ Year Member

    Would someone mind listing what those 5 states are? And what exactly is different about them? Just that they require a year of internship?
     
  33. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned Banned 10+ Year Member

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    :confused:

    1. MDs will always have preference at MD programs, no matter the specialty
    2. Nothing will change in "4 or 5 years". Dont know where you got that from
    3. MD residencies are plentiful, but so are the numberr of graduating MDs every year
    4. I think you will be suprised by the number of AOA programs available in many specialties

    If youre going to post something, have credible information to back it up. People want to use SDN as a resource, not a rumor mill.
     
  34. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned Banned 10+ Year Member

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    The difference is that the osteopathic association in these states mandates an AOA approved internship as requirement for gaining licensure.
     
  35. O......k. No offense but I'm glad you're not a moderator. Try to be a bit more polite please, thank you.
     
  36. Taus

    Taus . Moderator 10+ Year Member

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    actually he couldn't be more dead-on.....I wouldn't have felt the need to post so much over the past few years if people didn't insist on spreading mis-information all day on here....
     
  37. I think the new D.O. schools will help, which is what I said originally.
     
  38. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned Banned 10+ Year Member

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    Oh give me a break. Should I have sat down next to you and put my arm around your first?

    Did I yell too loudly through the screen?

    Come on. If you want to spew nonsense then be prepared to get hit with the backwash.
     
  39. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned Banned 10+ Year Member

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    Wrong. New DO schools will HURT. The osteopathic profession is already in a crisis with its post graduate training. Now adding more schools and more residencies will water that down even more. And then take these DO students who want to go to allopathic programs and have them explain to the PDs "I go to one of those new DO schools that opened in the last 5 years...no, not that one...nope, not that one...nope, not that one either...yeah...thats it...the 8th one on your list."

    Hell. The MD world is rolling it eyes already and we're just dancing around in silly hats making it worse for ourselves
     
  40. Who said anything about dead-on or number of posts?
     
  41. Hmmm, interesting. I disagree. Anyway, just opinions I guess.
     
  42. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned Banned 10+ Year Member

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    Opinion from a premed vs opinion from JPHazelton

    I win.
     
  43. Yup. You win. :thumbup:

    I have a question JP.......The osteopathic match is before the allopathic match, so if you match into an osteopathic spot, what would happen if you later matched into an allopathic program you would rather be at? Can you tell the osteopathic program that you changed your mind? Is there any sort of repercussions for doing this?
     
  44. Dr.Inviz

    Dr.Inviz Banned Banned

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    Actually, I must also agree with JP. The quality (and actual number of) AOA residency programs has not increased to accomodate the increase in DO med schools (and thus enrollment). Many of these AOA PC programs do go unmatched as many attempt to specialize and some also wish to pursue the MD programs for residency. MD resid. programs will most likely go for those that have the stats, the MD, and good connections; however, most apparently consider DOs with statistically better stats, good reputation/connection, etc. With newer schools being built w/o the rep. and connections, it certainly makes it tough going into that interview suggesting to them that you went to an actual med school and not some degree mill program ... esp. if it's DO (yes, i'm purposely being a prick in the last comment). Anyways, with the weak infrastructure of AOA resid. programs, this certainly doesn't make it any better.

    Damn, this new JP is actually cool ...
     
  45. Dr.Inviz

    Dr.Inviz Banned Banned

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    Probably get blacklisted from both :laugh:

    Best thing is to go strictly osteo or strictly allo match and hope for the best ... or do some sign-on ...
     
  46. Dr.Inviz

    Dr.Inviz Banned Banned

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    repeat.
     
  47. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned Banned 10+ Year Member

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    Agreed

    True

    You can't. Once you match through the Osteopathic match then the online database removes your name from the match system.

    No. See above

    A match is basically a contract. You still need to sign the official contract, but you better have a damn good reason for doing so. Not "I found something better." I dont personally know of any court cases, but it is something that can be handled legally.

    I DO know of a case where someone tried to do this (decline their osteo spot after matching) and the osteopathic program threatened to sue. The allopathic program found out and THEY were upset because they dont want to steal residents and they certainly dont want that type of person in their program.

    This doc is currently moonlighting as a living. Never got into a residency spot.
     
  48. Dr.Inviz

    Dr.Inviz Banned Banned

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    So, it is safe to assume a permanent black-listing from both matches? Or is it possible to try again at some point?
     
  49. I see.....thanks for the info. BTW, I'm glad to see you're back and posting again.
     
  50. Assuming the new D.O. schools aren't horrible and the entering classes have been carefully enough chosen, the board grades should be okay. In fact, being new may have made the directors especially careful in making certain to have good faculty and students. Being from a 'new' school would be superseded in this case. Anyway, like I said.....just opinions.
     

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