DO from America or MD from Caribbean, which one?

[OSUdoc08]

Nice! No opinions allowed. Particularly ones that even suggest this site goes out of its way to promote osteopathy. You'll fit in fine here.

Are you a Caribbean medical student, who is bitter they didn't apply to DO schools?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[AngryBaby]

I assume that this is a new account from an old user who has been banned?

agreed

 

[notdeadyet]

You'll find better and less moderated discussions on "Rebel SDN" (www.studentdoctors.net

Oh, I've been there. Sites like those are the reason I support moderated discussion forums. I don't need to flip through pages of cock jokes, $hit jokes, and loads of others using forums for sexual jollies.

Moderation keeps the content about the subject. Which is why I'm here.

But if I want to start an anal post thread (there are many on that site), I'll be sure to head over. Enjoy!

 

[Orthodoc40]

How many superbowls, playoff games, and regular season games were won by the foot of Mr. Vinatieri?

That would be 3.
How many were won because Brady got them close enough for #4 to hit it through those uprights?
That would be 3.
How many did Mr. Manning get his team close enough for his kicker to win?
Uhhh - that would still be - ZERO.

 

[AngryBaby]

That would be 3.
How many were won because Brady got them close enough for #4 to hit it through those uprights?
That would be 3.
How many did Mr. Manning get his team close enough for his kicker to win?
Uhhh - that would still be - ZERO.

techincally Peyton DID do enough last yr. Yes it took a huge break (Bettis fumble at the GOALLINE?!?!?) but I think 46 yds in a dome (homefield, no less) should have been plenty for Vanderjagt's arrogant/annoying a$$. Vanderjagt is (rightfully) the goat in that one. Jerk. I would love to see him and TO get into it in Dallas. Can you imagine a kicker and TO jawing at each other?? That'd be great...then Bledsoe would come in and knock them both out---and the Cowgirls lose!!

 

[R.P. McMurphy]

That would be 3.
How many were won because Brady got them close enough for #4 to hit it through those uprights?
That would be 3.
How many did Mr. Manning get his team close enough for his kicker to win?
Uhhh - that would still be - ZERO.

kickers are overrated

 

[anon-y-mouse]

In addition, the top DO schools are better than a large portion os U.S. M.D. schools.

lawl!!

 

[Orthodoc40]

techincally Peyton DID do enough last yr. Yes it took a huge break (Bettis fumble at the GOALLINE?!?!?) but I think 46 yds in a dome (homefield, no less) should have been plenty for Vanderjagt's arrogant/annoying a$$. Vanderjagt is (rightfully) the goat in that one. Jerk. I would love to see him and TO get into it in Dallas. Can you imagine a kicker and TO jawing at each other?? That'd be great...then Bledsoe would come in and knock them both out---and the Cowgirls lose!!

Actually that would still be ZERO. Peyton still hasn't even gotten them through the door of a SuperBowl game yet, so the "shoulda, coulda, woulda's" don't count as technically anything - sorry to say.
Brady also isn't a jerk enough to throw his teammates under the bus when they lose (blaming his o-line for not enough protection??!!).
Once the Pats were out I was rooting for #18 to finally do what everyone thinks he should be able to do - but he proved that he is still only 2nd best.

I forgot that TO & Vanderjerk are going to be teammates - that should provide some entertainment this season for sure!!

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Very few DO residencies are worth consideration, and will indeed severely limit your employment options.

Can you substantiate this? I'm guessing no.

 

[CoolCucumber3]

Once you are in medical school you are going to hate it anyway so just go for the MD. If you get into St. George's, then totally go for that because that's a caribbean school with an actually good reputation. I personally want the MD after my name but I am superficial that way so don't flame me. Plus I don't really like the whole OMM thing. But that's just me. Why don't you buff up your qualifications and apply to us allopathic med schools again and work for another year? If you want the DO then go the osteopathic route. You're going to hate not earning money and having a life and going out drinking whenever you want once you're in med school anyway. Why the rush to get into any med school that accepts you now if an M.D. from a us school is what you secretly want anyway?

 

[laurenem]

I think what matters for residency is how you do on the USMLE. Kick some buns on the USMLE. That's all.

The caribbean md schools get all the leftover residencies (after american and canadian schools match). So, even if you score very well, you still have very slim chances of getting a good residency.

For DO's, you have the option of having a DO residency (first round), or you can do an MD residency (and still have a DO degree). If you choose this option, you are thrown into the same round as the carribbean MD programs...

 

[laurenem]

How is putting Dr. XXX on your coat unethical and misleading. Isn't a DO a doctor? Don't they have all the rights and privileges of a physician? It would be unethical for a PA or NP to put Dr. XXX on there coat. You can make the argument that it is cowardly not to put Dr. XXX, D.O. I have seen plently of allopathic doctors put Dr. XXX on their coats, are they being misleading and unethical?

what about Dr. Ross Gellar? there are lots of dr's out there who don't treat patients!

 

[Mr. McDuck]

Ross doesn't walk around hospitals talking to patients in a lab coat with "Dr. Gellar" on it. If he was an MD/DO, this wouldn't be a problem, but I don't think paleantologists get adequate medical training.

 

[laurenem]

sorry, I came in late on this thread and am catching up. but I just wanted to point out that there are plenty of patients out there who actually seek out DO's (I can say from my shadowing experiences about half the patients seeked out the pediatrician I was shadowing because he was a DO and the other half just wasn't aware of the difference). There are plenty of people who think that their manipulations and preventative care is so beneficial that they prefer DO's over MD's... just keep that in mind.

 

[Taus]

The caribbean md schools get all the leftover residencies (after american and canadian schools match). So, even if you score very well, you still have very slim chances of getting a good residency.

For DO's, you have the option of having a DO residency (first round), or you can do an MD residency (and still have a DO degree). If you choose this option, you are thrown into the same round as the carribbean MD programs...

fyi...there are no "rounds" in the match...best man/women gets the spot if you're a US MD/DO...unless you're in one of the few remaining regions or specialties that prefers the MD. Your other point is very valid. For every rare person that prefers not to see a DO, there are plenty of more people who prefer and seek out DO's. Quite frankly the majority of people don't give a $hit either way as long as you treat them nicely and can give them their meds. In my mind the only reason to go for the carib MD is if the superficial reason of wanting the MD next to your name is extremely important. For most people, receiving quality medical education and being a good doc is the most important thing....but for some having the "letters" is extremely important and a valid reason in their minds. There is nothing really wrong with that....I personally don't agree w/ it it...but for some people it matters.

 

[Law2Doc]

For every rare person that prefers not to see a DO, there are plenty of more people who prefer and seek out DO's.

How many people unrelated to someone in the medical profession actually know what a DO is? As a percentage, DO's constitute a very tiny portion of the physicians out there. It may seem like a lot in a few select parts of the country, but it isn't.
It's a rare person that asks about a doctor's credentials at all, but a rarer group still that has heard of other than the MD.
Otherwise I agree with your post.

 

[BobaGreenTea]

Quote:

In addition, the top DO schools are better than a large portion os U.S. M.D. schools.

lawl!!

OSUdoc08 is a DO medical student, who is bitter he didn't enter or accept to a MD schools ...

 

[bgtati]

In the end I realized that DO=MD.

I don't necessarily agree with this. If it were the case than why would there be two seperate disciplines?

 

[Taus]

I don't necessarily agree with this. If it were the case than why would there be two seperate disciplines?

to answer that question you need to look into the history and politics of the DO degree

 

[rob14599]

Quote:




OSUdoc08 is a DO medical student, who is bitter he didn't enter or accept to a MD schools ...

I believe OSUdoc was referring to the US News Medical School rankings for primary care. Michigan State Univeristy College of Osteopathic Medicine is ranked FOURTH, that puts it ahead of Duke, Brown, Dartmouth, even Harvard Medical School in terms of primary care. West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine is ranked 49th, that puts it in the upper half of all medical schools (both allopathic and osteopathic) in terms of primary care, and ahead of most allopathic medical schools.

Of course, when you look at the rankings for Research schools, it isn't even close. DO schools get blown out of the water by the MD schools in terms of research opportunities. But looking strictly at the practice of medicine, OSUdoc is quite correct that there are a handful of DO schools that are highly ranked and very highly regarded when compared to their allopathic counterparts. On the reverse side, there are a handful of osteopathic schools who round out the bottom of the list in terms of rankings, so it's sort of a double-edged sword when comparing DO schools to MD schools.

 

[arrowsmith2]

Can you substantiate this? I'm guessing no.

Glad you asked. You're clearly not going to take my word for it. Nor should you, necessarily. So, here's what you do: Call a couple of local recruiters. Tell them you're an entering M4 osteopathic student considering residency apps. Now I'm particularly familiar with EM programs, (and I see from your sig & oversized red font you're a little too proud of your OU admit - we can discuss this problem separately later), so as an example, tell them you're trying to decide between OU's OKC allopathic residency and OSU's Tulsa Regional Medical Center program (which, by the way, has a volume that doesn't even meet minimum ACGME standards and is widely regarded as one of the worst emergency medicine programs in the nation). Then ask them what your job prospects will be upon graduation and whether they think they'll have a better chance placing you if you graduated from one program vs. the other. Then, after his laughter has subsided, thank him for his time and come on back here and apologize to me.

It absolutely amazes me what goes through premeds' minds. Do you guys really not realize why you will soon be competing for the best residencies? Examples -- look at the complete incompetence in this thread alone. Multiple "rounds" of matching? Supercool red-eyed osteopathic students suggesting others are "bitter" for not attending the lowest ranked medical schools (not just nationally, but on an international level)? Seriously, does it get any worse than this?

Again, focus on results. Look at match lists. Completely discard osteopathic matches. This is your future, folks. It's too important to not understand what you're getting into.

 

[NewNick]

You're debating whether DO or Carib MD is better. Can someone helps me to interprete this data from Internal Med forum ? IMG takes more spots than DO. Does IMG include doctors graduated in China, India, UK, etc.? I know some DO's, and they're all doing fine. Even the MD that I shadowed suggested me to go to DO school rather than Carib school. His sister graduated from Carib school (of course, passing all boards) and didn't get residency.

How many people are in IM residencies and fellowships, and who are they?**

In the year 2002:

US RESIDENCIES (all specialties):
No. of programs: 8,064
Total no. of residents: 98,258
40.0%(39,279) female
67.8% (66,646) USMG
26.2% (25,783) IMG
0.4% (418) Canadian
5.4% (5,327) DO

For the year 2003/2004*:

Internal Medicine
No. of programs: 390
Total no. of residents: 23,749
42% female
54% USMG
41% IMG
5% DO

Combined IM Programs, 2002**:

IM/Emergency Medicine:
No. of programs: 9
Total no. of residents: 81
21.0% female
91.4% USMG
4.9% IMG
3.7% DO

IM/Family practice:
No. of programs: 5
Total no. of residents: 9
66.7% female
66.7% USMG
22.2% IMG
11.1% DO

IM/Neurology:
No. of programs: 11
Total no. of residents: 25
28.0% female
64.0% USMG
32.0% IMG
4.0% DO

IM/Pediatrics:
No. of programs: 107
Total no. of residents: 1,507
49.3% female
85.1% USMG
10.4% IMG
4.3% DO

IM/Physical medicine and rehabilitation
No. of programs: 8
Total no. of residents: 10
20.0% female
60.0% USMG
40% IMG
0% DO

IM/Preventive medicine:
No. of programs: 8
Total no. of residents: 29
51.7% female
27.6% USMG
65.5% IMG
6.9% DO

IM/Psychiatry:
No. of programs: 20
Total no. of residents: 111
49% female
68.5% USMG
28.8% IMG
2.7% DO

 

[notdeadyet]

As a percentage, DO's constitute a very tiny portion of the physicians out there. It may seem like a lot in a few select parts of the country, but it isn't.

I think more people people are treated by DOs than you might think. The average experience that most people have with a physician is with their primary care provider. About 9% of all primary care nationwide is provided by DOs. This number is 15% in rural areas.

I completely agree with how many people know what a DO is,though. Most folks treated by DOs probably have no idea what an osteopath is or that they're being treated by one.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think more people people are treated by DOs than you might think. The average experience that most people have with a physician is with their primary care provider. About 9% of all primary care nationwide is provided by DOs. This number is 15% in rural areas.

I completely agree with how many people know what a DO is,though. Most folks treated by DOs probably have no idea what an osteopath is or that they're being treated by one.

Those numbers seem too high. There are 5 times as many allo schools in the US as DO, and the allo places have been at it for hundreds of years longer. And If you look at the sheer numbers of MDs churned out by allo and from foreign sources (a huge chunk of the primary care physicians in this country too), it dwarfs the number of DO. But at any rate, if better than 5 out of 6 doctors you come across even in a rural primary care setting is an MD, you are going to think they all are.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think more people people are treated by DOs than you might think. The average experience that most people have with a physician is with their primary care provider. About 9% of all primary care nationwide is provided by DOs. This number is 15% in rural areas.

I completely agree with how many people know what a DO is,though. Most folks treated by DOs probably have no idea what an osteopath is or that they're being treated by one.

Those numbers seem too high. There are 5 times as many allo schools in the US as DO, and the allo places have been at it for hundreds of years longer. And If you look at the sheer numbers of MDs churned out by allo and from foreign sources (a huge chunk of the primary care physicians in this country too), it dwarfs the number of DO. But at any rate, if better than 5 out of 6 doctors you come across even in a rural primary care setting is an MD, you are going to think they all are.

 

[notdeadyet]

Those numbers seem too high.

60% of DOs going into primary care can't hurt. Point taken about the 5 out of 6 thing.

 

[Taus]

You're debating whether DO or Carib MD is better. Can someone helps me to interprete this data from Internal Med forum ? IMG takes more spots than DO. Does IMG include doctors graduated in China, India, UK, etc.? I know some DO's, and they're all doing fine. Even the MD that I shadowed suggested me to go to DO school rather than Carib school. His sister graduated from Carib school (of course, passing all boards) and didn't get residency.

How many people are in IM residencies and fellowships, and who are they?**

In the year 2002:

US RESIDENCIES (all specialties):
No. of programs: 8,064
Total no. of residents: 98,258
40.0%(39,279) female
67.8% (66,646) USMG
26.2% (25,783) IMG
0.4% (418) Canadian
5.4% (5,327) DO

For the year 2003/2004*:

Internal Medicine
No. of programs: 390
Total no. of residents: 23,749
42% female
54% USMG
41% IMG
5% DO

Combined IM Programs, 2002**:

IM/Emergency Medicine:
No. of programs: 9
Total no. of residents: 81
21.0% female
91.4% USMG
4.9% IMG
3.7% DO

IM/Family practice:
No. of programs: 5
Total no. of residents: 9
66.7% female
66.7% USMG
22.2% IMG
11.1% DO

IM/Neurology:
No. of programs: 11
Total no. of residents: 25
28.0% female
64.0% USMG
32.0% IMG
4.0% DO

IM/Pediatrics:
No. of programs: 107
Total no. of residents: 1,507
49.3% female
85.1% USMG
10.4% IMG
4.3% DO

IM/Physical medicine and rehabilitation
No. of programs: 8
Total no. of residents: 10
20.0% female
60.0% USMG
40% IMG
0% DO

IM/Preventive medicine:
No. of programs: 8
Total no. of residents: 29
51.7% female
27.6% USMG
65.5% IMG
6.9% DO

IM/Psychiatry:
No. of programs: 20
Total no. of residents: 111
49% female
68.5% USMG
28.8% IMG
2.7% DO

DO's only make up around 5% of all US Doctors.....if there are 5% DO's in a given specialty/fellowship all that is showing is that they are on EVEN footing with an MD (without specifiying USMD/IMG). If you ever see DO's at more then 5% in a given setting, that is actually an over-representation (such as you see in primary care and PM&R). I know I'm just re-hashing the same info...but if you only see 5 DO's out of 100 Docs in a hospital...that is on equal footing to MD's. When you see only 1-2% DO's in a given setting...that is the only time you can say that they are not well represented.

 

[gujuDoc]

I'm not giving in yet, Tucker...

Webster's dictionary is also free and available online at http://www.webster.com

That's your best bet.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Quote:




OSUdoc08 is a DO medical student, who is bitter he didn't enter or accept to a MD schools ...

That could be a possible explanation, however this is not based on a personal opinion, but instead factual information.

It is a common misconception of the uninformed that DO schools, by definition, are inferior to MD schools. This, of course, isn't reality.

You will find that the publicly funded state DO schools are often excellent institutions, and have better board scores, match lists, and patient/staff satisfaction with their graduates.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Glad you asked. You're clearly not going to take my word for it. Nor should you, necessarily. So, here's what you do: Call a couple of local recruiters. Tell them you're an entering M4 osteopathic student considering residency apps. Now I'm particularly familiar with EM programs, (and I see from your sig & oversized red font you're a little too proud of your OU admit - we can discuss this problem separately later), so as an example, tell them you're trying to decide between OU's OKC allopathic residency and OSU's Tulsa Regional Medical Center program (which, by the way, has a volume that doesn't even meet minimum ACGME standards and is widely regarded as one of the worst emergency medicine programs in the nation). Then ask them what your job prospects will be upon graduation and whether they think they'll have a better chance placing you if you graduated from one program vs. the other. Then, after his laughter has subsided, thank him for his time and come on back here and apologize to me.

It absolutely amazes me what goes through premeds' minds. Do you guys really not realize why you will soon be competing for the best residencies? Examples -- look at the complete incompetence in this thread alone. Multiple "rounds" of matching? Supercool red-eyed osteopathic students suggesting others are "bitter" for not attending the lowest ranked medical schools (not just nationally, but on an international level)? Seriously, does it get any worse than this?

Again, focus on results. Look at match lists. Completely discard osteopathic matches. This is your future, folks. It's too important to not understand what you're getting into.

Umm, okay. Of course, your post is hurt by the fact that OU doesn't have an emergency med program anymore. If you're going to be critical about other posters not knowing facts, you should check yours. Again, though, you didn't substantiate. The only way to really prove your assertion is to show that DOs who did osteopathic residencies make less money or have a higher rate of unemployment in the same specialty. Telling some story about talking to some fictitious recruiter doesn't exactly cut it.

Also, the fact that you're probably a troll doesn't help either. Editing to add that I think I've figured out who you are -- or at least your past two troll personas.

 

[Haemulon]

Why can't we just say that either MD or DO training can be better for different individuals, with different goals, abilities, and circumstances. For any one person, it is perfectly legitimate to have the opinion that DO is better or MD is better, either for that person's own training or for their preference of what type of doctor to be treated by. I personally think MD is better for me, for a number of reasons. And I would prefer to be seen by MD physicians. Heck, if for no other reason than that is what I have always known and is what I am comfortable with. PLus I have some philosophical differences of opinion with some aspects of the DO approach. Doesn't mean its wrong or inferior, just my difference of opinion or skepticism of things like OMM. Let me add the caveat though that good medical care is good medical care, no matter what type of doctor provides it. I certainly would not turn down treatment by a DO just because of some silly letters. I recognise that DO's can be excellent physicians and surgeons the same as MD's. Its all very individual, irregardless of which doctorate a physician has. Both have good and bad practitioners.

 

[Law2Doc]

Why can't we just say that either MD or DO training can be better for different individuals, with different goals, abilities, and circumstances.

Because ambitious people can never be on the top without perceiving someone else at the bottom. At any rate, someday all this distinction will likely get merged away, and we can find another branch of healthcare to gang up on -- PAs perhaps?

 

[Haemulon]

Because ambitious people can never be on the top without perceiving someone else at the bottom. At any rate, someday all this distinction will likely get merged away, and we can find another branch of healthcare to gang up on -- PAs perhaps?

Right on.

 

[breakitdown753]

So you're saying that ANY DO that we shadow will represent DOs as a whole? No, I'm sorry, they're just as variable in quality as MDs.

No that's not what I am saying at all. I'm saying if you shadow a D.O. you will see that once in VERY VERY blue moon a patient will ask "What is a D.O." You will see that nobody really gives a damn, they just know the D.O. is there to take care of them. You will also see they see the same number of patients as an M.D. and earn the same amount of money. You will see this at any D.O. you go to. That's what I meant when I said "legitamacy". Have you ever shadowed a D.O.?

 

[Orthodoc40]

Because ambitious people can never be on the top without perceiving someone else at the bottom. QUOTE]

That says it all! Perfect.

 

[arrowsmith2]

Umm, okay. Of course, your post is hurt by the fact that OU doesn't have an emergency med program anymore. If you're going to be critical about other posters not knowing facts, you should check yours. Again, though, you didn't substantiate. The only way to really prove your assertion is to show that DOs who did osteopathic residencies make less money or have a higher rate of unemployment in the same specialty. Telling some story about talking to some fictitious recruiter doesn't exactly cut it.

OMG, I can see that I'm not dealing with the sharpest folks here. Feel free to substitute absolutely any allopathic ACGME program. Even the very worst one that exists, which is why I mentioned OU.

My "assertion" is that finishing an osteopathic residency will severely limit your employment options. This in no way requires "that DOs who did osteopathic residencies make less money or have a higher rate of unemployment in the same specialty." All it requires is less options. Many groups will not take those from osteopathic residencies. Many academic centers will not take those from osteopathic residencies. This in no way requires (or even suggests) that they make less money. And there's always some podunk ED in need of warm bodies with a license, negating the need for higher unemployment rates.

I've outlined how you personally and independently can verify this. Recruiters aren't "fictitious." If you choose to create new definitions for my assertion instead, then that's your decision, but it doesn't help your case. I've laid it out for you to play it out.

Also, the fact that you're probably a troll doesn't help either.

Ahh, I see we've moved onto the song of the wrong. Quite a compelling argument, counselor. If your definition of a "troll" is someone who has just handed you your a.ss, then you may be onto something.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

OMG, I can see that I'm not dealing with the sharpest folks here. Feel free to substitute absolutely any allopathic ACGME program. Even the very worst one that exists, which is why I mentioned OU.

My "assertion" is that finishing an osteopathic residency will severely limit your employment options. This in no way requires "that DOs who did osteopathic residencies make less money or have a higher rate of unemployment in the same specialty." All it requires is less options. Many groups will not take those from osteopathic residencies. Many academic centers will not take those from osteopathic residencies. This in no way requires (or even suggests) that they make less money. And there's always some podunk ED in need of warm bodies with a license, negating the need for higher unemployment rates.

I've outlined how you personally and independently can verify this. Recruiters aren't "fictitious." If you choose to create new definitions for my assertion instead, then that's your decision, but it doesn't help your case. I've laid it out for you to play it out.


Ahh, I see we've moved onto the song of the wrong. Quite a compelling argument, counselor. If your definition of a "troll" is someone who has just handed you your a.ss, then you may be onto something.

Right, by again not proving your point. I don't define that as handing me my ass.

 

[arrowsmith2]

Just to clarify, because we've gotten slightly off topic here:

1. Graduating from an osteopathic medical school will indeed limit your employment options, which is what the original poster was questioning. Again, US allo > SGU, Saba, AUC, Ross > osteopathic schools > the remaining caribs.

2. Completing an osteopathic residency program adds another layer of hurt (which is what my post above is referring to, and which lies just outside exlawgirls' grasp). Now your options will be severely limited.

Good luck!

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Just to clarify, because we've gotten slightly off topic here:

1. Graduating from an osteopathic medical school will indeed limit your employment options, which is what the original poster was questioning. Again, US allo > SGU, Saba, AUC, Ross > osteopathic schools > the remaining caribs.

2. Completing an osteopathic residency program adds another layer of hurt (which is what my post above is referring to, and which lies just outside exlawgirls' grasp). Now your options will be severely limited.

Good luck!

Thanks again for your unsubstantiated post. I grasp that you're saying stuff, and I also grasp that you can't back up your assertions. It's not hard.

 

[TauPathology]

Wait a year, work on your application, reapply and get into a place that you will actually be happy. Medical School is 4 years of your life. I don't think its worth trading 4 years of your life being unhappy, to getting into a 6 year residency of your choice. Wait a year, get into a med school and residency of your choice. The caribbean will all be looked down upon. DO's are given a bad name by the people who go there solely because they can't get into an MD program, and not because they believe in the philosophy.

 

[Orthodoc40]

Just to clarify, because we've gotten slightly off topic here:

1. Graduating from an osteopathic medical school will indeed limit your employment options, which is what the original poster was questioning. Again, US allo > SGU, Saba, AUC, Ross > osteopathic schools > the remaining caribs.

2. Completing an osteopathic residency program adds another layer of hurt (which is what my post above is referring to, and which lies just outside exlawgirls' grasp). Now your options will be severely limited.

Good luck!

Y'know, as a person who is actually wondering which is the better route to go and why, I'm finding that your posts really just create anxiety without giving any reasoning to back it up - which isn't that helpful.

So far, I've talked with 3-4 admission committee chairpeople (at US Allopathic schools), and about 7-8 MD's from the US (2 that went to SGU) and 1 DO. Every adcom told me residency options are always better if you chose DO schools over SGU or any other non-US school. 5-6 of the MD's and the 1 DO tell me the same. (One of those MD's is responsible for ranking applicants for 2 different residency programs.) The 2 that went to SGU enjoyed it and didn't have trouble getting good residencies here, either. Only 2 MD's have told me to do anything to avoid going the DO route and so far they've been in the minority, so I'd really like to figure out what substantiates it. You're not helping much, yet so if you can give some facts, let's have 'em.

 

[mvenus929]

I got a somewhat related question. I probably won't go to a DO school, just because it requires a separate application and I won't apply to more than two, so it's not really cost effective.

However, I know that some people who go to DO schools take the USMLE in addition to the COMPLEX so that they can get a better residency. So, my question is (and please pardon my ignorance): does the type of doctor you become (MD or DO) depend on the school you go to, or which exam you pass?

 

[OSUdoc08]

I got a somewhat related question. I probably won't go to a DO school, just because it requires a separate application and I won't apply to more than two, so it's not really cost effective.

However, I know that some people who go to DO schools take the USMLE in addition to the COMPLEX so that they can get a better residency. So, my question is (and please pardon my ignorance): does the type of doctor you become (MD or DO) depend on the school you go to, or which exam you pass?

School. You earn the degree prior to taking step III of the boards.

It's COMLEX, not COMPLEX.

P.S. All of the Texas schools have a seperate application as well, so I assume you won't be applying to them?

 

[Law2Doc]

It's COMLEX, not COMPLEX.

they might as well just change the word. No one gets it right anyway. It's like "MCATS"

 

[allendo]

Just to clarify, because we've gotten slightly off topic here:

1. Graduating from an osteopathic medical school will indeed limit your employment options, which is what the original poster was questioning. Again, US allo > SGU, Saba, AUC, Ross > osteopathic schools > the remaining caribs.

2. Completing an osteopathic residency program adds another layer of hurt (which is what my post above is referring to, and which lies just outside exlawgirls' grasp). Now your options will be severely limited.

Good luck!

What are your sources? There are some very good D.O. residencies.
I know plenty of D.O. ER residencies that see trauma and over 60k pt visits, does this not meet your criteria? I've talked to recruiters they could care less where you train. I agree the Tulsa program is not good, but the OKC program is good and is a D.O. program not acgme.

 

[mvenus929]

School. You earn the degree prior to taking step III of the boards.

It's COMLEX, not COMPLEX.

P.S. All of the Texas schools have a seperate application as well, so I assume you won't be applying to them?

Thanks, and sorry for the typo. No, I won't be applying to the Texas schools either. I got Colorado and a bunch of East Coast schools thus far.

 

[arrowsmith2]

Y'know, as a person who is actually wondering which is the better route to go and why, I'm finding that your posts really just create anxiety without giving any reasoning to back it up - which isn't that helpful.

So far, I've talked with 3-4 admission committee chairpeople (at US Allopathic schools), and about 7-8 MD's from the US (2 that went to SGU) and 1 DO. Every adcom told me residency options are always better if you chose DO schools over SGU or any other non-US school. 5-6 of the MD's and the 1 DO tell me the same. (One of those MD's is responsible for ranking applicants for 2 different residency programs.) The 2 that went to SGU enjoyed it and didn't have trouble getting good residencies here, either. Only 2 MD's have told me to do anything to avoid going the DO route and so far they've been in the minority, so I'd really like to figure out what substantiates it. You're not helping much, yet so if you can give some facts, let's have 'em.

Good question. It's probably gotten a little confusing for everyone because of the strange twists this thread has taken. People get frustrated that the system is how it is, so they go for the personal attack route -- "idiot" or "troll" or "couldn't get into this or that." Do I like how the system is? Nope. Does it matter what I think? Nope. I simply lay it out as it is.

OK, with that in mind, to fully understand how you should approach this, you have to follow my posts from the beginning.
1. I've given you a very simple formula to use:
US allo > SGU, Saba, AUC, Ross > osteopathic schools > the remaining caribbean schools

2. Why, you might ask, is this the formula? What is it based on?
Answer: Residency Placements. This is the only thing that can be used to accurately gauge a school's worth.

3. Well, why can't I just use anecdotal evidence? 'Cause my aunt works in the ER and she told me that Timmy, her husband's younger brother got 2 residencies at the same time after he graduated from OSU-COM, but that Harvard sometimes has people that don't even pass Step 1, and then there's Billy...
Answer: Because most of these stories are bull****, and they typically are dependent on so many factors that are not revealed. And you can find just as many that swing the direction you want them to swing.
Example: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3828122&postcount=28
Does this post support my assertions? Of course. Do I point to it as evidence that I'm right? Nope.

4. Well what about all those "extra" DO residencies that I've been hearing so much about? These are probably the cream of the crop, right?
Answer: Nope. These are programs that typically have major problems, and they are almost invariably programs that don't even meet *minimum* ACGME requirements. Almost all of these can be excluded when you do your comparisons of the schools.

5. But I'd be board certified as a [insert specialty here], even if I completed one of these programs, right?
Answer: Sort of. But by the wrong board. Many hospitals won't grant privileges and many groups won't hire you because they are well aware of the inferior training and often times very low volume of these programs. DO students take USMLE Step 1 to avoid these programs. Problem is that only ~70% of DO students pass this test. SGU and Saba have pass rates > the 90th percentile. There are many more issues here that could be discussed, such as how there are some ACGME programs that accept COMLEX, etc., but the point is the same. Avoid these programs like the plague.

6. Well, I don't want to believe you, and I don't want to pick up the phone to independently verify that you are correct like you've outlined I can do. I just want to complain that that's not how the system *should* be. What can I do?
Answer: Stick to name calling and personal attacks.

7. Well, isn't there a JAMA article that has a table that lists all possible combinations of schools and residencies and job prospects?
Answer: Think about if for just a couple of seconds, folks. Why do you think all med students work very hard to try to obtain the best residencies?

And there you have it. A roadmap that you'll one day thank me profusely for.

Enjoy!

 

[Law2Doc]

Problem is that only ~70% of DO students pass this test. SGU and Saba have pass rates > the 90th percentile.

This may be a skewed portrayal. (I don't know, am playing devil's advocate here). What are the attrition rates at those schools? And what percentage of the entering class takes Step 1 two years after matriculation?
The "dirty secret" about carribean school stats is that thanks to very high attrition, there is not a good match between those entering the school in year one and those who actually come out in year 4. It's very survival of the fittest, I think.
In allo, the pass rate is about 90% and the attrition rate is only a couple of percent -- effectively nil. I suspect, from what I've read on SDN, that a lot more people drop out or get "held back" at the carribean schools, even the few you've mentioned. So if 500 people enroll in carribean school X, and only 100 actually sit for Step 1 in two years and 90 of them pass, is that actually good? That's really just a 20% rate looking from the matriculant perspective. (Again, I'm making up these numbers as food for thought).
And is that better than if DO has a fairly low attrition rate but only 70% who choose to take Step 1 (rather than stick with just the DO residencies) pass?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Good question. It's probably gotten a little confusing for everyone because of the strange twists this thread has taken. People get frustrated that the system is how it is, so they go for the personal attack route -- "idiot" or "troll" or "couldn't get into this or that." Do I like how the system is? Nope. Does it matter what I think? Nope. I simply lay it out as it is.

OK, with that in mind, to fully understand how you should approach this, you have to follow my posts from the beginning.
1. I've given you a very simple formula to use:
US allo > SGU, Saba, AUC, Ross > osteopathic schools > the remaining caribbean schools

2. Why, you might ask, is this the formula? What is it based on?
Answer: Residency Placements. This is the only thing that can be used to accurately gauge a school's worth.

3. Well, why can't I just use anecdotal evidence? 'Cause my aunt works in the ER and she told me that Timmy, her husband's younger brother got 2 residencies at the same time after he graduated from OSU-COM, but that Harvard sometimes has people that don't even pass Step 1, and then there's Billy...
Answer: Because most of these stories are bull****, and they typically are dependent on so many factors that are not revealed. And you can find just as many that swing the direction you want them to swing.
Example: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3828122&postcount=28
Does this post support my assertions? Of course. Do I point to it as evidence that I'm right? Nope.

4. Well what about all those "extra" DO residencies that I've been hearing so much about? These are probably the cream of the crop, right?
Answer: Nope. These are programs that typically have major problems, and they are almost invariably programs that don't even meet *minimum* ACGME requirements. Almost all of these can be excluded when you do your comparisons of the schools.

5. But I'd be board certified as a [insert specialty here], even if I completed one of these programs, right?
Answer: Sort of. But by the wrong board. Many hospitals won't grant privileges and many groups won't hire you because they are well aware of the inferior training and often times very low volume of these programs. DO students take USMLE Step 1 to avoid these programs. Problem is that only ~70% of DO students pass this test. SGU and Saba have pass rates > the 90th percentile. There are many more issues here that could be discussed, such as how there are some ACGME programs that accept COMLEX, etc., but the point is the same. Avoid these programs like the plague.

6. Well, I don't want to believe you, and I don't want to pick up the phone to independently verify that you are correct like you've outlined I can do. I just want to complain that that's not how the system *should* be. What can I do?
Answer: Stick to name calling and personal attacks.

7. Well, isn't there a JAMA article that has a table that lists all possible combinations of schools and residencies and job prospects?
Answer: Think about if for just a couple of seconds, folks. Why do you think all med students work very hard to try to obtain the best residencies?

And there you have it. A roadmap that you'll one day thank me profusely for.

Enjoy!

Doubt it. Again, you've posted line after line of essentially nothing. Maybe you should go back to your rogue site where you can engage in gay-bashing, talk about fat people and harp relentlessly on the moderation of SDN. From what I've seen, there's nothing of value there regarding the DO/MD discussion.

As to the 70% pass rate, Law2Doc is right -- lots of students fail out of Ross, AUC, SGU, etc. before making it to the boards. I've heard of students leaving Ross just because Ross won't let them sit for the boards. Osteopathic students do not have to pass the USMLE to graduate or be licensed and presumably lots of them take it less seriously than they should. Now, you seem to like to knock OSUCOM, but apparently 100% of their students who take the USMLE pass it.

 

[Orthodoc40]

2. Why, you might ask, is this the formula? What is it based on?
Answer: Residency Placements. This is the only thing that can be used to accurately gauge a school's worth.

5. But I'd be board certified as a [insert specialty here], even if I completed one of these programs, right?
Answer: Sort of. But by the wrong board. Many hospitals won't grant privileges and many groups won't hire you because they are well aware of the inferior training and often times very low volume of these programs. DO students take USMLE Step 1 to avoid these programs. Problem is that only ~70% of DO students pass this test. SGU and Saba have pass rates > the 90th percentile. There are many more issues here that could be discussed, such as how there are some ACGME programs that accept COMLEX, etc., but the point is the same. Avoid these programs like the plague.

I am more interested in residency matches than in simply passing the USMLE. A really useful stat would be the % of applicants from each (SGU, DO schools) that matched into the allopathic residency they wanted, especially into certain specialties.
Aren't you also implying there are lesser certifying boards? If a DO matches into an allo residency, what board is certifying them? If it's the same board that would certify them if they attended an osteo residency, why bother trying to match allo?