DO from America or MD from Caribbean, which one?

[Doctor Bagel]

I am more interested in residency matches than in simply passing the USMLE. A really useful stat would be the % of applicants from each (SGU, DO schools) that matched into the allopathic residency they wanted, especially into certain specialties.
Aren't you also implying there are lesser certifying boards? If a DO matches into an allo residency, what board is certifying them? If it's the same board that would certify them if they attended an osteo residency, why bother trying to match allo?

If you match into an allopathic residency, you will be board-certified by the allopathic board. If you match into an osteopathic residency, you'll be board-certified by the osteopathic board. Our troll buddy is trying to claim that the latter is inferior and will cause negative career repercussions. His point might be true, but he hasn't produced anything to support it. Perhaps you should call a recruiter.

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[arrowsmith2]

This may be a skewed portrayal. (I don't know, am playing devil's advocate here). What are the attrition rates at those schools? And what percentage of the entering class takes Step 1 two years after matriculation?
The "dirty secret" about carribean school stats is that thanks to very high attrition, there is not a good match between those entering the school in year one and those who actually come out in year 4. It's very survival of the fittest, I think.
In allo, the pass rate is about 90% and the attrition rate is only a couple of percent -- effectively nil. I suspect, from what I've read on SDN, that a lot more people drop out or get "held back" at the carribean schools, even the few you've mentioned. So if 500 people enroll in carribean school X, and only 100 actually sit for Step 1 in two years and 90 of them pass, is that actually good? That's really just a 20% rate looking from the matriculant perspective. (Again, I'm making up these numbers as food for thought).
And is that better than if DO has a fairly low attrition rate but only 70% who choose to take Step 1 (rather than stick with just the DO residencies) pass?

Good point. That's why I picked on SGU & Saba. They both have very low attrition, although SGU does have a fair number of decels. Ross, on the otherhand, will make you work hard for the chance to stay. So, this actually brings up another point that should probably be discussed: Your individual test-taking ability.

There are really 2 big groups:
Group 1. My formula above is really geared more toward the confident student who may have been unfocused during the early years of college, but that who got her **** together and starting rocking coursework, performed well on the MCAT, but who still didn't make the US allo cut because of those early years. This person will have no problem passing the USMLE, and will likely do better than the US avg on the exam.

Group 2. These are the people who have wanted to be doctors as long as they can remember, and in spite of the best efforts during college their grades and/or MCAT just sucked. They test poorly or they're just not very intelligent. Students whose parents are pushing them to go to med school also fall into this group.

Group 1 has very little to worry about, and should apply the formula I gave.

Group 2 has plenty to worry about and should probably go to a DO school if given the opportunity. Here's why: As noted above, only ~70% of those taking Step 1 at a DO school will pass. The school will blame it on a wide variety of things. The truth is that the failing 30% are mostly comprised of Group 2 students. So, the osteopaths created their own licensing "test" (in quotes because I'm not really sure it's much of a test when it's designed to let low achievers practice medicine, but that's a debate for another time). The COMLEX allows these 30% to practice medicine in the US. If you even think you might fall into Group 2, then you will probably be better off going the DO route. You won't have many doors open to you, but you'll find a practice somewhere that will take you. Otherwise, you will likely never practice medicing in the United States.

Good luck to all of us!

 

[Orthodoc40]

If you match into an allopathic residency, you will be board-certified by the allopathic board. If you match into an osteopathic residency, you'll be board-certified by the osteopathic board. Our troll buddy is trying to claim that the latter is inferior and will cause negative career repercussions. His point might be true, but he hasn't produced anything to support it. Perhaps you should call a recruiter.

Thanks for the informative post, AND the laugh!!

 

[Kuba]

Good point. That's why I picked on SGU & Saba. They both have very low attrition, although SGU does have a fair number of decels. Ross, on the otherhand, will make you work hard for the chance to stay. So, this actually brings up another point that should probably be discussed: Your individual test-taking ability.

There are really 2 big groups:
Group 1. My formula above is really geared more toward the confident student who may have been unfocused during the early years of college, but that who got her **** together and starting rocking coursework, performed well on the MCAT, but who still didn't make the US allo cut because of those early years. This person will have no problem passing the USMLE, and will likely do better than the US avg on the exam.

Group 2. These are the people who have wanted to be doctors as long as they can remember, and in spite of the best efforts during college their grades and/or MCAT just sucked. They test poorly or they're just not very intelligent. Students whose parents are pushing them to go to med school also fall into this group.

Group 1 has very little to worry about, and should apply the formula I gave.

Group 2 has plenty to worry about and should probably go to a DO school if given the opportunity. Here's why: As noted above, only ~70% of those taking Step 1 at a DO school will pass. The school will blame it on a wide variety of things. The truth is that the failing 30% are mostly comprised of Group 2 students. So, the osteopaths created their own licensing "test" (in quotes because I'm not really sure it's much of a test when it's designed to let low achievers practice medicine, but that's a debate for another time). The COMLEX allows these 30% to practice medicine in the US. If you even think you might fall into Group 2, then you will probably be better off going to DO route. Otherwise, you will likely never practice medicing in the United States. You won't have many doors open to you, but you'll find a practice somewhere that will take you.

I got a 32 on the MCAT and am heavily interested in Osteo. I know a few people who have 32+ on the MCAT along with stellar grades that are thinking of going osteo over US allo. I would not consider Carib allo unless I didn't get into US allo or osteo. However, if you don't believe in the osteo philosophy or you would feel badly about not having an MD after you're name, then def go Carib if you can't get US allo.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Good question. It's probably gotten a little confusing for everyone because of the strange twists this thread has taken. People get frustrated that the system is how it is, so they go for the personal attack route -- "idiot" or "troll" or "couldn't get into this or that." Do I like how the system is? Nope. Does it matter what I think? Nope. I simply lay it out as it is.

OK, with that in mind, to fully understand how you should approach this, you have to follow my posts from the beginning.
1. I've given you a very simple formula to use:
US allo > SGU, Saba, AUC, Ross > osteopathic schools > the remaining caribbean schools

2. Why, you might ask, is this the formula? What is it based on?
Answer: Residency Placements. This is the only thing that can be used to accurately gauge a school's worth.

3. Well, why can't I just use anecdotal evidence? 'Cause my aunt works in the ER and she told me that Timmy, her husband's younger brother got 2 residencies at the same time after he graduated from OSU-COM, but that Harvard sometimes has people that don't even pass Step 1, and then there's Billy...
Answer: Because most of these stories are bull****, and they typically are dependent on so many factors that are not revealed. And you can find just as many that swing the direction you want them to swing.
Example: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3828122&postcount=28
Does this post support my assertions? Of course. Do I point to it as evidence that I'm right? Nope.

4. Well what about all those "extra" DO residencies that I've been hearing so much about? These are probably the cream of the crop, right?
Answer: Nope. These are programs that typically have major problems, and they are almost invariably programs that don't even meet *minimum* ACGME requirements. Almost all of these can be excluded when you do your comparisons of the schools.

5. But I'd be board certified as a [insert specialty here], even if I completed one of these programs, right?
Answer: Sort of. But by the wrong board. Many hospitals won't grant privileges and many groups won't hire you because they are well aware of the inferior training and often times very low volume of these programs. DO students take USMLE Step 1 to avoid these programs. Problem is that only ~70% of DO students pass this test. SGU and Saba have pass rates > the 90th percentile. There are many more issues here that could be discussed, such as how there are some ACGME programs that accept COMLEX, etc., but the point is the same. Avoid these programs like the plague.

6. Well, I don't want to believe you, and I don't want to pick up the phone to independently verify that you are correct like you've outlined I can do. I just want to complain that that's not how the system *should* be. What can I do?
Answer: Stick to name calling and personal attacks.

7. Well, isn't there a JAMA article that has a table that lists all possible combinations of schools and residencies and job prospects?
Answer: Think about if for just a couple of seconds, folks. Why do you think all med students work very hard to try to obtain the best residencies?

And there you have it. A roadmap that you'll one day thank me profusely for.

Enjoy!

If you're going to single out Caribbean medical schools, you will also have to single out DO medical schools.

OSU-COM, TCOM, MSU-COM, et. al. are decidely better than even Ross and SGU.

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

So, the osteopaths created their own licensing "test" (in quotes because I'm not really sure it's much of a test when it's designed to let low achievers practice medicine, but that's a debate for another time). The COMLEX allows these 30% to practice medicine in the US.

Someone who vouches for Carribean medical schools probably knows a thing or two about low achievers being given the opportunity to practice medicine.

SGU's website states that while their school has had a 90% pass rate, there is a 64% average pass rate of all non-US schools during the same period. That's 6% less than osteopathic students according to your figure of 70%.

 

[docmd2010]

Good point. That's why I picked on SGU & Saba. They both have very low attrition, although SGU does have a fair number of decels. Ross, on the otherhand, will make you work hard for the chance to stay. So, this actually brings up another point that should probably be discussed: Your individual test-taking ability.

There are really 2 big groups:
Group 1. My formula above is really geared more toward the confident student who may have been unfocused during the early years of college, but that who got her **** together and starting rocking coursework, performed well on the MCAT, but who still didn't make the US allo cut because of those early years. This person will have no problem passing the USMLE, and will likely do better than the US avg on the exam.

Group 2. These are the people who have wanted to be doctors as long as they can remember, and in spite of the best efforts during college their grades and/or MCAT just sucked. They test poorly or they're just not very intelligent. Students whose parents are pushing them to go to med school also fall into this group.

Group 1 has very little to worry about, and should apply the formula I gave.

Group 2 has plenty to worry about and should probably go to a DO school if given the opportunity. Here's why: As noted above, only ~70% of those taking Step 1 at a DO school will pass. The school will blame it on a wide variety of things. The truth is that the failing 30% are mostly comprised of Group 2 students. So, the osteopaths created their own licensing "test" (in quotes because I'm not really sure it's much of a test when it's designed to let low achievers practice medicine, but that's a debate for another time). The COMLEX allows these 30% to practice medicine in the US. If you even think you might fall into Group 2, then you will probably be better off going the DO route. You won't have many doors open to you, but you'll find a practice somewhere that will take you. Otherwise, you will likely never practice medicing in the United States.

Good luck to all of us!

as much as I hate to admit it and as much as I dislike the semi-arrogant attitude, your statements are quite true. As a D.O. student (to be-in 2 weeks) I strongly agree with you that the students who did well on the MCAT shouldn't have problems with the USMLE with one caveat being that they study hard in m1 and m2. Furthermore, on average, the students that had a tapered performance in undergrad, will score lower on the boards. However, many students who didn't perform as well scored very well on the USMLE. Just go to the USMLE and COMLEX 1 forums and read the Step 1 results thread, quite a few students have posted their lower-end mcat scores and also their extrmelly high-end USMLE scores.

I respectfully disagree in your general opinion of the COMLEX, most students who take both boards tend to score the exact same on both exams. It's like taking the ACT and the SAT, one that will score a 27 will most likely score in the mid 1200's. So, going by this, you can not conclude that it is merely a "test" for the lower 30% who didn't pass the USMLE so they can practice. Of course this all my mathematical speculation, I'll let you know how I do on both exams in 2 years.

 

[arrowsmith2]

I got a 32 on the MCAT and am heavily interested in Osteo. I know a few people who have 32+ on the MCAT along with stellar grades that are thinking of going osteo over US allo. I would not consider Carib allo unless I didn't get into US allo or osteo. However, if you don't believe in the osteo philosophy or you would feel badly about not having an MD after you're name, then def go Carib if you can't get US allo.

Of course you're heavily interested in osteo. Your GPA is in the gutter. No shame in that, but I really don't want to hear any other purported excuses for applying. Your only chance at an acceptance is using the osteo repeat-a-course method of GPA inflation. (This, BTW, is also how the DO schools even come close to approaching US allo stats.) You'll find it far easier to be accepted to any of the DO schools with your marks than to the Carib schools I mentioned above. In your case, DO school is by far your best bet.

Folks, spare me the drama. Please. I don't want to hear about how your particular DO school is far above the rest, or how your friends are suddenly enchanted by the "philosophy" and are choosing it, or how it's suddenly on the upswing, or any other such nonsense. This crap has been around for >120 years; it's like a bad habit society can't seem to drop. Save it for your admissions interviews.

Oh, and by the way, one other category of people that should be included in Group 2 above -- Mama's boys. (This isn't in reference to you kuba, I guess it's just coincidence that I happened to suddenly remember this that's so wrong to say... but so, so funny.) If you don't adapt well, or you haven't traveled outside of the US, you'll find your 16-20 months on the island too much to handle. Stay in the US, and go the DO route.

 

[arrowsmith2]

as much as I hate to admit it and as much as I dislike the semi-arrogant attitude, your statements are quite true.

Oh, you sweet-talker, you. Made me blush a little bit

 

[Taus]

Arrow: You are obviously a very opinionated person and are entitled to think what you want, but to say that a majority of program directors prefer graduates from the big 3 carib schools over DO schools is a false statement. It may be true in a select few parts of the country in a few hospitals, but overall most program directors prefer DO graduates. It is rare to find a program w/ several IMG's w/o having several DO graduates....however the opposite is not true. There are many programs that tend to have several DO's, but not IMG's. I've heard this from many docs in the philly and ny area and I'm at Northwestern this summer (where I don't think anyone will say this isn't a big-time place)...DO's far outnumber IMG's here. Another point about job selection... big-time Academic/research positions are usually the only ones where DO's may not fair so well as those spots are highly based on prestige and pedigree (ie good old boys/ivy type junk). The graduates of my school seem to be doing more then just fine for themselves from what I've seen in my alumni newsletters (even the ones who did an osteo residency....).


Either way, I'm sure you're gonna have fun refuting this...enjoy..this pissing contest may now resume....

 

[Law2Doc]

Arrow: You are obviously a very opinionated person and are entitled to think what you want, but to say that a majority of program directors prefer graduates from the big 3 carib schools over DO schools is a false statement.

He actually is expanding it to big 4.

 

[AngryBaby]

He actually is expanding it to big 4.

I never understood why people are willing to argue/debate their point with people like Arrow. There's alot of info he/she is obviously missing, but I've seen some names on this thread from people who know what they're talking about, are intelligent, and have done their research regarding this topic specifically. May I ask...and you know who you are...why you debate with people like this?

 

[notdeadyet]

If a DO matches into an allo residency, what board is certifying them? If it's the same board that would certify them if they attended an osteo residency, why bother trying to match allo?

Board certification is dependent on the residency, not the degree. A DO with an allopathic residency is board certified by the same group as an MD with an allopathic residency.

 

[notdeadyet]

arrowsmith2- The idea of the carrib schools being preferred to osteopathic schools runs counter to about 95% of what I've seen mentioned on these boards here (I'm talking allo and pre-allo boards; not including obviously biased pre-osteo/osteo or IMG boards). Most physicians I've talked to, some graduates of the better carribs, strongly recommended going osteo. Maybe they're all wrong and you're right, though. I'm open to that.

But I have to ask, since have such strong opinions on this issue: where is all this coming from? I noticed you only joined SDN this month, have only posted on four forums, and have made a total of 17 posts. That's fine, but it helps having a little background before taking someones opinon at face value.

Are you a physician/med student/undergrad/HSer? Just curious. I find that the folks who have the strongest opinions about this tend to be docs who were forced into a certain path (known as sweet lemons/sour grapes, I believe).

If you're uncomfortable, don't sweat it, but whenever someone comes out as so authoritative on a board, 100% sure they're right, it begs the question: Is he an unbiased allo-MD who has seen DOs struggling for residencies, or is he just a pre-med who was beaten by a DO as a child? Background helps.

 

[gtleeee]

Who are you trying to kid....yourself? Arrowsmith, your assertations, blatantly untrue (and silly), and coming as they are from a guy attending a Carribean school, lie in a realm between fantastic and delusional.

 

[DrFeelgoodMD]

i dont know if it is necessarily bad if someone goes to a caribbean med school, if they are looking to get into a Peds, IM, or FP residency I don't think it would be that bad of a decision...but they can kiss the more competitive residency positions goodbye.

At any rate, a US school (DO or MD) should be your first choice.

J

 

[Instatewaiter]

I do not really have an opinion on which is better a DO or MD from the carribean. I feel most people view these as secondary options to a US MD school.

A few interesting thoughts and questions:
Going to the web sites, it is very difficult to find the percentage of people who pass USMLE from DO schools and many times it is not there. If it were an asset, it would be published. Most MD schools, the carribean included, readily post the data. Around ninety percent of people pass the COMLEX boards at DOs. If the same were true of DOs who took USMLE would you not see the data?

If comlex and USMLE were the same or equivalent, why are there 2 tests?

If MD and DO were really equal, you would not see DOs making their 'own' residencies. Plus, you would see a lot of MDs that decided to go to DO residencies. Whether you agree or not, there is a perceived inferiority.

For primary cary and some other specialties, functionally MD=DO.

Once you go on to Graduate medical training, where you got your degree (MD/DO) makes little difference. Whether you went to Howard or Harvard, Ponce or Philly (Osteo) makes no difference if you are all doing a surgery residency at UVA. Here DO and MD make no difference. Getting there is a different story.

Debating over whether MD from the carribean is better than a DO is like debating which is better: an 79 Yugo or an 81 Pinto. If you had the option of something better, you wouldn't choose either.

 

[sfnix]

As a person with no "expertise" (as it seems the majority of the people in this thread have) on this subject, with no stake in who is right, and with little care who is right-

arrowsmith- your arguements seems to be the basic formula used over the past few decades by people espousing creation science. step 1- create a stir (check). step 2- over simplify the situation usually by making the question at hand have only two viable answers (check). step 3- argue vehemently against the other position (check). step 4- ignore the fact that your own position is in disagreement with a great deal of evidence and others who are in fact experts on the subject, i.e.- DOs themselves (check). step 5- tie up any loose ends i.e.- attack the character of those whom you are arguing against. (check)

so at least in this way, you've alligned yourself with 40+ years of pseudoscience. I am not claiming your argument is incorrect, however 4 years of social science training has taught me how to assess an argument even when i know nothing about the field.

your name is witty as a plus, however a play on a better band would have been more called for. Pearl Jam for example.

 

[CatsandCradles]

You know, this thread is pretty interesting.

My dad, an MD gas doc, asked me if I wanted to shadow with an Otolayrngologist friend of his.

So I did in a heart beat. Had no clue she was a DO. I shadowed a DO without even knowing it

That was several years ago. And I am much better informed now. But it just comes to show how ignorant I was ~ and also how DOs need a better PR.

It's like the Newsweek article about the military doctors in Iraq. The guy was a DO and Newsweek had the huge frontcover saying "Hero MD." The guys over in the DO forum were angry - now as for me I just couldn't help but laugh

 

[arrowsmith2]

Quiet now, tiny little dancers... I realize many of you don't want to hear this. Some of you have too much at stake. Already started DO school, family members DO's, etc. But it's for your own good. Really, I promise.

OK, I don't have time to do everyone's homework for them, and I realize from some of the replies that many of you are probably not even able to understand most of what I've posted. So, I'll do the first one for you. This is the only one I'm gonna do, though, OK? I just don't have time to hold your hands through this. It's actually very easy to do, so I encourage you to try it on your own with the other schools & post the numbers. This will be much more productive than whining about how you want the system to be.

Someone mentioned that they thought OSU-COM was the best DO school, so I've started with that one. (And BTW, believe me when I say that it was just about all I could stomach to look at some of those mugs on OSU-COM's site. If someone here could beg them to just post the results without the pics for next year's class I would truly appreciate it. But I digress....). I really have no idea which DO school is the best, and I doubt there's much difference, but we should all be able to figure it out by following my roadmap that I've outlined above. So, if you think your school (or the one that your brother Billy goes to, or whatever) is better, then by all means find the match list and do the calculations.

So, here we go. Follow along closely.
1. Find the match lists of the schools you want to compare;
2. Throw out all osteopathic residency program matches for the reasons stated above (BTW, if you want to include these bottom-of-the-barrel programs, please feel free to do so, but do it with caution. Severely limited employment options, lack of hospital privileges, etc. I've also included this with my calculations below. It's just that these are so, so undesirable, but we've already discussed that above so I won't go through that again); and
3. Calculate the percentage of each class going into the allopathic residency specialty of your choice.

Oh, and I should also mention that when I was dividing OSU's list into osteopathic matches vs. allopathic matches, I always gave OSU the benefit of the doubt if I was unsure of whether the program was DO or MD, and lumped it in with allo. Some of those community hospitals were just out there in the boonies and I really had no idea. So, if someone wants to go through that list more carefully & look some of those up, please let us know if you find any changes. Of course, that will only bring OSU's numbers down, so I doubt I'll have too many takers.

One more thing. I went ahead and totaled the primary care & the osteo matches as being undesirable. I realize some will argue with that because some people really do want that stuff for whatever reason. IM to go into cards, hem/onc, etc. But, for the most part, these became people's first choice due to lack of an alternative, failing Step1 (if DO), etc.

And so, without further adieu,...
2006 Matches
-----
OSU-COM (http://centernet.okstate.edu/commencement2006/graduates-fgh.cfm)

Osteopathic Programs 54.3%
Internal Medicine 6.5%
Family Medicine 7.6%
Peds 6.5%
Total Undesirable(Primary Care/ Osteopathic) 74.9%
(And as promised, if you *don't* throw out osteo programs, then the total primary care = 58%, fyi).

surgery 2.2%
em 5.4%
Anes 6.5%
ob/gyn 2.2%
psychiatry 4.3%
pm&r 2.2%
neurology 0
path 1.1%
rads 0
ophtho 0
derm 0

-----
SGU (http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/home/2006PostgraduateResidencyAppointments.htm)
IM 33.8
FM 11.4
peds 11.2
Total Undesirable 56.4

surgery 10.2
em 8.4
anes 4.6
ob/gyn 6.3
psych 4.3
pm&r 2.8
neurology 2.3
path 0.5
rads 1.3
ophtho 0.5
derm 0.3

-----
SABA (http://www.saba.edu/residency_match.php)
im 32.6
fm 29.3
peds 3.3
Total Undes 65.2

surgery 7.6
em 5.4
anes 7.6
ob/gyn 1.1
psych 8.7
pm&r 1.1
neurology 0
path 1.1
rads 1.1
ophtho 0
derm 0

As you can see, OSU took a beating where it mattered most -- allopathic residency matches. These are just the facts, folks. Don't shoot the messenger.

So again, we have (went ahead and added an extra > sign because of the results above. i think you'll agree):
US allo > SGU, Saba, Ross, AUC >> osteopathic > remaining Caribbean schools.

Enjoy!

 

[Kuba]

I bet arrow has a killer tan going by now

 

[Orthodoc40]

So, here we go. Follow along closely.

3. Calculate the percentage of each class going into the allopathic residency specialty of your choice.

And so, without further adieu,...
2006 Matches
-----
OSU-COM

surgery 2.2%
em 5.4%
Anes 6.5%


-----
SGU

surgery 10.2
em 8.4
anes 4.6


-----
SABA

surgery 7.6
em 5.4
anes 7.6

As you can see, OSU took a beating where it mattered most -- allopathic residency matches. These are just the facts, folks. Don't shoot the messenger.

So again, we have (went ahead and added an extra > sign because of the results above. i think you'll agree):
US allo > SGU, Saba, Ross, AUC >> osteopathic > remaining Caribbean schools.

Enjoy!

But there's a problem with using this kind of data. No one here can look at 2.2% in surgery from OSU-COM and say that's 2.2% of the people that WANTED to match in an allopathic residency, for example. It's just saying that out of a graduating class of - what, like, 65 people, 2.2% chose and matched into an allopathic residency. Nothing says that 95% attempted but only 2.2% matched.

For that matter, no one can say that 10.2% of people that WANTED to match into surgery from SGU got matched somewhere. We don't know how many tried, in either case. And these programs are often not at very prestigious locations either. Some might be - but most...probably not. There are also a very large number of these surgical matches from these schools that are only matching into a preliminary program anyway (DO & Carrib.) So whether they're allopathic residencies doesn't necessarily make them desireable in and of themselves. Thanks for trying, though.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Quiet now, tiny little dancers... I realize many of you don't want to hear this. Some of you have too much at stake. Already started DO school, family members DO's, etc. But it's for your own good. Really, I promise.

OK, I don't have time to do everyone's homework for them, and I realize from some of the replies that many of you are probably not even able to understand most of what I've posted. So, I'll do the first one for you. This is the only one I'm gonna do, though, OK? I just don't have time to hold your hands through this. It's actually very easy to do, so I encourage you to try it on your own with the other schools & post the numbers. This will be much more productive than whining about how you want the system to be.

Someone mentioned that they thought OSU-COM was the best DO school, so I've started with that one. (And BTW, believe me when I say that it was just about all I stomach to look at some of those mugs on OSU-COM's site. If someone here could beg them to just post the results without the pics for next year's class I would truly appreciate it. But I digress....). I really have no idea which DO school is the best, and I doubt there's much difference, but we should all be able to figure it out by following my roadmap that outlined above. So, if you think your school (or the one that your brother Billy goes to, or whatever) is better, then by all means find the match list and do the calculations.

So, here we go. Follow along closely.
1. Find the match lists of the schools you want to compare;
2. Throw out all osteopathic residency program matches for the reasons stated above (BTW, if you want to include these bottom-of-the-barrel programs, please feel free to do so, but do it with caution. Severely limited employment options, lack of hospital privileges, etc. I've also included this with my calculations below. It's just that these are so, so undesirable, but we've already discussed that above so I won't go through that again); and
3. Calculate the percentage of each class going into the allopathic residency specialty of your choice.

Oh, and I should also mention that when I was dividing OSU's list into osteopathic matches vs. allopathic matches, I always gave OSU the benefit of the doubt if I was unsure of whether the program was DO or MD, and lumped it in with allo. Some of those community hospitals were just out there in the boonies and I really had no idea. So, if someone wants to go through that list more carefully & look some of those up, please let us know if you find any changes. Of course, that will only bring OSU's numbers down, so I doubt I'll have too many takers.

One more thing. I went ahead and totaled the primary care & the osteo matches as being undesirable. I realize some will argue with that because some people really do want that stuff for whatever reason. IM to go into cards, hem/onc, etc. But, for the most part, these became people's first choice due to lack of an alternative, failing Step1 (if DO), etc.

And so, without further adieu,...
2006 Matches
-----
OSU-COM (http://centernet.okstate.edu/commencement2006/graduates-fgh.cfm)

Osteopathic Programs 54.3%
Internal Medicine 6.5%
Family Medicine 7.6%
Peds 6.5%
Total Undesirable(Primary Care/ Osteopathic) 74.9%
(And as promised, if you *don't* throw out osteo programs, then the total primary care = 58%, fyi).

surgery 2.2%
em 5.4%
Anes 6.5%
ob/gyn 2.2%
psychiatry 4.3%
pm&r 2.2%
neurology 0
path 1.1%
rads 0
ophtho 0
derm 0

-----
SGU (http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/home/2006PostgraduateResidencyAppointments.htm)
IM 33.8
FM 11.4
peds 11.2
Total Undesirable 56.4

surgery 10.2
em 8.4
anes 4.6
ob/gyn 6.3
psych 4.3
pm&r 2.8
neurology 2.3
path 0.5
rads 1.3
ophtho 0.5
derm 0.3

-----
SABA (http://www.saba.edu/residency_match.php)
im 32.6
fm 29.3
peds 3.3
Total Undes 65.2

surgery 7.6
em 5.4
anes 7.6
ob/gyn 1.1
psych 8.7
pm&r 1.1
neurology 0
path 1.1
rads 1.1
ophtho 0
derm 0

As you can see, OSU took a beating where it mattered most -- allopathic residency matches. These are just the facts, folks. Don't shoot the messenger.

So again, we have (went ahead and added an extra > sign because of the results above. i think you'll agree):
US allo > SGU, Saba, Ross, AUC >> osteopathic > remaining Caribbean schools.

Enjoy!

Dear Mr. Pre-Med Arrowsmith,

You are clearly confused about what makes a good medical school. You are also completely uninformed about residencies. Fortunately, you aren't even in medical school yet, so decisions that you make right now about yourself won't be seriously damaging.

Good luck to you, as you throw yourself to the wolves with your attitude.

 

[docmd2010]

arrowhead is a f*cking troll guys

maybe some of these mods should ban this f*cker

 

[notdeadyet]

Are you a physician/med student/undergrad/HSer? Just curious. I find that the folks who have the strongest opinions about this tend to be docs who were forced into a certain path (known as sweet lemons/sour grapes, I believe).

If you're uncomfortable, don't sweat it, but whenever someone comes out as so authoritative on a board, 100% sure they're right, it begs the question: Is he an unbiased allo-MD who has seen DOs struggling for residencies, or is he just a pre-med who was beaten by a DO as a child? Background helps.

Any word, arrowsmith2? Would love to know who's coming up with all this stuff...

 

[OSUdoc08]

Any word, arrowsmith2? Would love to know who's coming up with all this stuff...

He hasn't even started medical school yet.

 

[Nas23]

I'll likely be a reapplicant. But, I may consider the Carrbean down the road. I know Carribean students may match into more competitive specialties, buts realistically, what type of specialities do most match into outside of IM, Family Practice, and Ped? What are the chances and difficulty of getting a specialty outside of this?

 

[socal78]

it seems kinda sketchy to leave the US to become a doctor.

 

[strawberryfield]

I want to know who this arrow guy is, and making up all these statistics, wtf???? this thread is ridiculous!

 

[HoodyHoo]

I never understood why people are willing to argue/debate their point with people like Arrow. There's alot of info he/she is obviously missing, but I've seen some names on this thread from people who know what they're talking about, are intelligent, and have done their research regarding this topic specifically. May I ask...and you know who you are...why you debate with people like this?

I also think it's worthless to join a pissing war with this F*ck face. Any DO or educated MD would agree that the osteopathic profession has come a very long way. I'll use Wash U as an example(a highly allopathic school, obviously). Their Cheif Resident of a Child Psych last year was a DO. Yeah I may be biased because it was my older brother but he alone has opened the doors for future DO applicants at WashU(at least in the psych program).

so arrow, f@#$ off and go back to your little cave under the tree.

 

[p9142]

I don't understand why all the DO students on this board feel so insecure that they constantly feed the trolls. Stop feeding, and they will go somewhere else.

As an aside, I asked all three MD's that I shadowed this same question. They all stated that they would stay in the US to get a DO.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

An MD vs. DO thread that went to crap with nonsensical posts. How shocking.

A reminder for everyone:

As long as there have been DOs, there has been an ongoing MD vs. DO debate. If you are a premed or medical student, you need to know this:
* As a physician you and your colleagues will be too busy to care about where you went to medical school.
* Most physicians judge each-other by the quality of their work and physician and patient feedback.
* Most patients come to you based on patient recommendations and physician referrals.
* Your residency and fellowship training are more important than where you went to medical school.
* If you're smart and work hard, you will be a good physician. If you're lazy and don't make an effort, you'll be doing a disservice to your patients. I've seen plenty of MDs and DOs that are excellent docs and plenty who are downright scary.

Whatever you feel about MDs or DOs, bashing each other is not going to solve any issues. I am embarrassed to see the vitriol that spouts from some DO students when someone questions their degree. If you feel that you must attack anyone who questions the DO degree, then I recommend you re-evaluate your reasons for obtaining it.

MD vs. DO flame-wars will no longer be tolerated at SDN. It is OK to discuss the differences and benefits of each degree. However, personal attacks and "trolling" are not appropriate.