Do Minorites have admission advantages?

[visualwealth]

In the end URMs do get into medical school with lower stats which is basically saying that they are not as capable as ORMs and whites. Statistically speaking, URMs tend to get in with lower MCATs/GPAs and because of it they score worse on their boards and tend to have a higher failure rate as well as a higher rate of deferring their Step 1s. It's been proven that using both MCAT scores and GPAs allow schools to make good predictions of how well a student will do on their initial board exam.

You can see this study done that better explains these trends (http://www.ceousa.org/pdfs/multimed.pdf)

How exactly is this helping URMs? It's basically placing URMs in a situation where they are going to fail. How does this even begin to help people in disadvantaged areas where URMs are supposedly more likely to practice? Sending them to inferior doctors just worsens the situation and creates more mistrust of the medical profession.

And I'm sure there are going to be a couple of people complaining on how test scores don't define a good physician. Guess what, this isn't some stupid undergrad midterm or final. It's a licensing exam and I can guarantee you that if a person was given the choice between a doctor who passed his boards the first time with decent scores versus a doctor who failed them at least once, they will choose the first doctor every time.

You can cry to complain and say "Well, the URM may have had some great experiences and they really added to the diversity of the class!" Well sorry to break it to you, that may be well and all, but when it comes to being able to practice medicine the general public could care less.

Preferntial treatment to URMs only harms them and creates the aura of inferiority because they will always be thought to have gotten into their school because of their skin color. It's sad but true.

No body deserves to get more consideration because of some past racial disparities. Getting into an undergraduate institution is enough of a level playing field. And if your udnergrad is crappy, the MCATs is the ultimate equalizer that is knowledge based. Also with the numerous scholarships and grants at the undergrad level, regardless of how poor you may be, you can get a good education. This added special treatment is absurd.

For someone who has received acceptances to all the top schools you possess the wit of an infant...

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[1Path]

Sending them to inferior doctors just worsens the situation and creates more mistrust of the medical profession.

How can a patient be seen by an inferior doctor when by DEFINITION a practicing doctor HAD to pass the boards?

Once again, black doctor = inferior doctor.

 

[PanaRama]

Quoted by Hot Hot Heat -How exactly is this helping URMs? It's basically placing URMs in a situation where they are going to fail. How does this even begin to help people in disadvantaged areas where URMs are supposedly more likely to practice? Sending them to inferior doctors just worsens the situation and creates more mistrust of the medical profession.

And I'm sure there are going to be a couple of people complaining on how test scores don't define a good physician. Guess what, this isn't some stupid undergrad midterm or final. It's a licensing exam and I can guarantee you that if a person was given the choice between a doctor who passed his boards the first time with decent scores versus a doctor who failed them at least once, they will choose the first doctor every time.

You can cry to complain and say "Well, the URM may have had some great experiences and they really added to the diversity of the class!" Well sorry to break it to you, that may be well and all, but when it comes to being able to practice medicine the general public could care less.

Preferntial treatment to URMs only harms them and creates the aura of inferiority because they will always be thought to have gotten into their school because of their skin color. It's sad but true.

No body deserves to get more consideration because of some past racial disparities. Getting into an undergraduate institution is enough of a level playing field. And if your udnergrad is crappy, the MCATs is the ultimate equalizer that is knowledge based. Also with the numerous scholarships and grants at the undergrad level, regardless of how poor you may be, you can get a good education. This added special treatment is absurd.[/QUOTE]

Hot Hot Heat i agree w/ your post wholeheartedly which is why i posted this question several pages back...... If you dont mind giving me an honest answer


........I have a real concern that i don't think there is an easy answer to. If you are a current Medical Student plz answer the following question..... How do you honestly view the URM's in your class? Do you wonder what was the reason for thier acceptance or does it not really make a diffrence to you? I personally want to gain acceptance based on my academia not my race. I can't help if an adcom see's me and says "well she is mediocore BUT she is 1/2 black and that is all we need to label her as an URM for addmission- oh AND we can boost that we have a diverse student body which is oh so PC. " Boy would i feel pimped Anyways i would like to know if URM's are coddled in Med school ie. given extra help etc.?


PS. I read the sticky on Medical School Admin. and was frankly embarassed that URM's can knock 5-7 points from thier qualifying score and STILL be on better footing than a non-URM when applying to say HARVARD How do any URM's reading this post feel about this injustice?




I gave an example of how unfair it is that a mediocre URM can be admit. over others who have stellar scores and how we all want to be on the same playing field- it is only fair right?! Well i don't believe AA creates that 'fair playing field' I was using a hypothetical question. I believe that every student regardless of race should strive for a 4.0 GPA, but not everyone will get those kinds of grades URM or NON-URM alike. So should a URM be given the benefit of the doubt because of thier skin color? That is LUDICROUS


I originally began this Thread not to argue AA b/c honestly feelings will be hurt and the policy will remain unchanged. I think we should be discussing the implications on the addmission process and how this weighs on the opinions of URM's fellow Medical Students and Professors.

 

[erin682]

I originally began this Thread not to argue AA b/c honestly feelings will be hurt and the policy will remain unchanged. I think we should be discussing the implications on the addmission process and how this weighs on the opinions of URM's fellow Medical Students and Professors

I agree with you so much here. I haven't posted in this conversation until b/c there is no easy answer to AA and diversity in schools and quite frankly internet forums are probably not the place that this problem is going to be solved.

Your question is a much more applicable one though. I can tell you that during the school year at my school URM's don't revieve any extra help. I've never heard of anyone discussing the qualifications of any minorities that have been accepted. We do have a pre-matriculant program that is geared toward URM's and non-trad students. Its open to anyone but only advertised to them. My roommate took it b/f her 1st year and I think the biggest thing she got out of it was knowing all the black people b/f classes started plus a couple of handouts that were more extensive than what were given out during the school year. Its actually kinda funny b/c most people don't even realize the program exists and can't figure out why all the black poeple seem to already know each other when school starts.

Anyway don't worry too much perceptions of race in school. Just do your best and you will be respected for that. Anyone who doesn't respect you for that would probably not respect you no matter what you did.

 

[PanaRama]

I agree with you so much here. I haven't posted in this conversation until b/c there is no easy answer to AA and diversity in schools and quite frankly internet forums are probably not the place that this problem is going to be solved.

Your question is a much more applicable one though. I can tell you that during the school year at my school URM's don't revieve any extra help. I've never heard of anyone discussing the qualifications of any minorities that have been accepted. We do have a pre-matriculant program that is geared toward URM's and non-trad students. Its open to anyone but only advertised to them. My roommate took it b/f her 1st year and I think the biggest thing she got out of it was knowing all the black people b/f classes started plus a couple of handouts that were more extensive than what were given out during the school year. Its actually kinda funny b/c most people don't even realize the program exists and can't figure out why all the black poeple seem to already know each other when school starts.

Anyway don't worry too much perceptions of race in school. Just do your best and you will be respected for that. Anyone who doesn't respect you for that would probably not respect you no matter what you did.

Your answer put my mind at ease - at least a little

 

[OzDDS]

I think I see where the confusion is now. Neither I, nor many other successful minorites I know, give a rat's a$$ about earning respect from anyone outside of our friends, familes and others (of ANY race) who would support us while we navigate a system biased against us.

Like many, I don't agree with how AA is practiced in some places, but in the absence of something better, it's the best we have for now.

Fair enough.. But again I reiterate.. If your going to support AA or any other similar policy you automatically lose your right to bitch or complain about any other policy that equally grants admission based on "un-earned" merit.. ie. Legacy etc.

Peace

 

[wiryMD]

Does the fact that she is growing up in a priviledged house make her immue to experiencing injustices due to her race??? Because she is a black woman (showing a propensity for science and engineering ), she will likely earn less money than a white man doing the same job. Now is THIS "right"?

Furthermore, aren't you already assuming that she won't be "qualified" since you seem to think she'll have to take "advantages" from poor students? On what basis would you be basing her need to have to take advantage of anything versus her being OVER qualified other than her race?

Those of you that think that eliminating AA will some how make things "right" for everyone are sadly mistaken as much as those who believe AA will make things "right". This country would have to cease to exist as it does to truly make things "right" with all the groups of people who have been "wronged".

I entirely agree with you that living a privileged life does not imply being immune from racial injustices. What I am arguing is that at on some level a large number of ethnic, social, religious groups, experience prejudice. I find it idealistic to say that these policies won't/shouldn't stop until their is no racial injustice, because there will always be people with those beliefs. So where does the advantage stop?

And let us assume that your daughther is overqualified, and an outstanding candidate, which I do not doubt she will be. Doesn't it make sense to differentiate between herself and others in her position, and those who faced far greater adversity, and truly lack the ability to compete, through no fault of their own, with other applicants? I would like to see these type of policies opened up more than the blanket term of URM and aide those individuals who were not given a fair shake. At the same time I would like to see them closed off to persons, regardless of ethnic status who did not face a significant disadvantage.

 

[impetigo]

even if he did, that wouldn't explain why white people with 24 MCAT scores don't even get LOOKED AT).

It's simple. 24 is a very low score and there are a ton of non-URMS with better stats.

 

[smkoepke]

Please note that I spoke of black AND people of color. Furthermore the reaosn it shouldn't be about just economic status is because racism is alive and well in this country.

And I think it's always so interesting to hear of people speak of improvement in early childhood educatioon but as an educated parent of an elementary age children, allow me to share with you why this idea won't work due to racism in this country.

The president of the Maryland Teachers Association (a white woman) recently stated that the biggest factor in why minority children in Maryland don't perform as well in school as white childen is because the TEACHES HAVE LOWER EXPECTATIONS OF MINORITY CHILDREN. NOT SES, NOT being raised in a single parent home, but lower standards being set for minority children based purely on thier race. Let me give it to you another way, my daugher has 2 parents with master's degrees (1 scientist/1 engineer). She is naturally shy and was declared gifted when she was about 4 years old . Yet despite this and because she's was VERY shy, her kindergardten teacher wanted to put in the class with mentally disabled students. And she made this assesment after the first week of school and it was NOT based on ANY testing. Now because I'm educated, I could prevent that label from being wrongly placed on her that would have essentially followed her to high school and pretty much guarenteed that college was no where in her future. But what about the child of color this happens to that has parents who can't take time off from work to meet with the principle, or that doen't speak english very well, ect.ect??

Here's how it usually breaks down when you're a child of color dealing with the early childhood educational system in the US. If your child is quiet, then he/she must be mentally ******ed. If he/she is talkative, he/she must have ADD and need ritalin. This is what I along with the parents of color have concluded after dealing with the "system" for the past 4 years. Improving the early childhood education of minority children needs to begin with the teachers having an open mind abouth the talent of thier students. And trust me as a former teacher in an inner city school, when you make your kids feel good about themselves , they'll meet you half-way by doing their very best.



If I'm hungry, I'm going to do whatever I can short of stealing to eat. What you don't seem to get is that if I "eat" the 50cent apple, I'll have the "nourshment" needed to provide for my family and in doing so, I'm also providing the foundation that may allow my children to grow their own dam apple trees!!!

i am the one who was bringin up early childhood education. I also grew up with the same bad experiences as a black child in the school system that a few of you have posted about. This is why CHANGING the system is needed. Providing incentives for top notch teachers to WANT to teach in certain districts, providing the adaquate supplies and resources, support persons to improve the quality of the education would help. By recruiting a multicultural staff ( i say this because children need to learn to get along with people of different races at an early age inmho), top notch educators and equipping them with the ability to succeed things could change for the better. I think in the long run this would provide a better way of improving the community then AA in its current form.

 

[smkoepke]

you cannot make a race of people less intelligent by making them slaves

perhaps not, but then how are we measuring "intelligence"? If we are using a system where reading comprehension, english language skills, math, and standardized testing denotes "intelligence", then yes i think a nation of people who were not allowed to develop their skills in these subjects might have a disadvantage. Particularly when a lot of learning is in the home where, grandma, grandpa and parents may have very poor skills in these areas due to the politics of their times. I am not saying this is an excuse for students today not to put forth their best efforts, however it is unreasonable to think that children living in communities where a large percentage of the elders are basically illiterate, and parents aren't much better off, aren't going to be at a disadvantage.

 

[OzDDS]

perhaps not, but then how are we measuring "intelligence"? If we are using a system where reading comprehension, english language skills, math, and standardized testing denotes "intelligence", then yes i think a nation of people who were not allowed to develop their skills in these subjects might have a disadvantage. Particularly when a lot of learning is in the home where, grandma, grandpa and parents may have very poor skills in these areas due to the politics of their times. I am not saying this is an excuse for students today not to put forth their best efforts, however it is unreasonable to think that children living in communities where a large percentage of the elders are basically illiterate, and parents aren't much better off, aren't going to be at a disadvantage.

Again, how is this any different than children of asian immigrants who's parent's or grandparent's may have never even finished a high school education and don't even speak english properly.. who ALSO may experience racial discrimination.

 

[chak_de_phatee]

Again, how is this any different than children of asian immigrants who's parent's or grandparent's may have never even finished a high school education and don't even speak english properly.. who ALSO may experience racial discrimination.

Amen sistaaaaaaa or hommie.........I can understand our soul food brothers getting a boost they need some justice done after 400 years of pain. But why is it if your parents eat tacos you get easier admission and not if they eat chow mein or tandoori chicken. All had to run from the border guards to get in. Speaking of tacos and chowmein Iam getting hungry..........

 

[MD'05]

Amen sistaaaaaaa or hommie.........I can understand our soul food brothers getting a boost they need some justice done after 400 years of pain. But why is it if your parents eat tacos you get easier admission and not if they eat chow mein or tandoori chicken. All had to run from the border guards to get in. Speaking of tacos and chowmein Iam getting hungry..........

Because the southwestern United States (with the exception of Tejas) was stolen from Mexican rancho owners. Dat's why my tandoori eating bratha ...

 

[hot hot heat]

For someone who has received acceptances to all the top schools you possess the wit of an infant...

Thanks for the well thought out response. Did you even bother to read the study instead of attacking me? Basically if you have to attack me personally, you probably aren't afraid to own up to the fact that URMs gain an unfair advantage in the medical admissions process.

How can a patient be seen by an inferior doctor when by DEFINITION a practicing doctor HAD to pass the boards?

Once again, black doctor = inferior doctor.

Hmm, it really seems you like putting words into my mouth. Nowhere have I said that black doctors are inferior. To me, an inferior doctor is someone who can't pass their licensing exams the first time or has to defer them a year to study more while 90% of their counterparts are able to take and pass the test. It doesn't matter who you are but I want a doctor who knows his/her stuff and can pass licensing exams which test competency in their subject. It's a fact. Test scores matter and they show how well you know the information.

People who fail their classes in undergrad are inferior students. They may end up graduating in 6 years but they are still inferior acadmeically to the student who graduated in 4 years. Sorry to break it to you.

........I have a real concern that i don't think there is an easy answer to. If you are a current Medical Student plz answer the following question..... How do you honestly view the URM's in your class? Do you wonder what was the reason for thier acceptance or does it not really make a diffrence to you? I personally want to gain acceptance based on my academia not my race. I can't help if an adcom see's me and says "well she is mediocore BUT she is 1/2 black and that is all we need to label her as an URM for addmission- oh AND we can boost that we have a diverse student body which is oh so PC. " Boy would i feel pimped Anyways i would like to know if URM's are coddled in Med school ie. given extra help etc.?

I'm not in medical school yet but if you do a search on these forums you will find the posts of certain medical students who say that URMs are give more help. I'll try to do a search and find out.

But unfortunately, the admissions system is messed up and needs to be reformed in some way so that it is color blind. Until then, if you are an URM, all you can do is work hard, get good grades/MCATs, and prove yourself when you get into medical school. But sadly because of AA in the admissions process I feel that all URMs will be questioned as to how much of an advantage being the "right" skin color gave them. I'm sure others do not share this point of view but I am just voicing the unpopular one.

 

[chak_de_phatee]

Because the southwestern United States (with the exception of Tejas) was stolen from Mexican rancho owners. Dat's why my tandoori eating bratha ...

It all clear now how that sorrow would decrease your MCAT scores and GPA compared to other IMMIGRANTS........................

 

[1Path]

Hmm, it really seems you like putting words into my mouth. Nowhere have I said that black doctors are inferior. To me, an inferior doctor is someone who can't pass their licensing exams the first time or has to defer them a year to study more while 90% of their counterparts are able to take and pass the test.

Does this same ridiculous logic apply to the MCAT and if it doesn't why not? Take the MCAT more than once and you're an idiot? They're are plenty of reasons why a person would need to retake the boards like being ill the day of the exam. Does this same "fuzzy logic" apply to white graduates of foreign med schools, where ALL the graduates often have to take the boards more than once.

Gee, I see why the world is in such dire straits. Your generation appears to be the most judgemental in human history. God bless your future patients.

 

[hot hot heat]

Does this same ridiculous logic apply to the MCAT and if it doesn't why not? Take the MCAT more than once and you're an idiot? They're are plenty of reasons why a person would need to retake the boards like being ill the day of the exam. Does this same "fuzzy logic" apply to white graduates of foreign med schools, where ALL the graduates often have to take the boards more than once.

Gee, I see why the world is in such dire straits. Your generation appears to be the most judgemental in human history. God bless your future patients.

Yes, if a person has to take the MCATs multiple times it suggests two things. Either they were sick/nervous/had some tragedy occur or that they not prepared for the test. I can forgive the first option but if you aren't prepared for the MCAT then you can be considered an academically inferior student compared to someone else who took the test and did well.

What exactly is so hard to comprehend about that?

And conerning the boards, why is it that blacks and hispanics, the two main groups of considered URMs, who also matriculate into medical school with lower MCATs/GPAs (on average) tend to fail or defer their step 1s when compared to asians or whites?

I really really find it hard to believe that blacks/hispanics seemingly are the only races that come down with strange illnesses during testing times. Hmm, maybe you can do some research on this strange illness.

Face it, allowing URMs with lower scores into medical school only makes them less prepared and causes them to have a harder time in medical school. It creates a shadow of suspicion over their accomplishments and demeans the entire admissions process.

And conerning foreign grads, if Im not mistaken residency programs that have a lot of IMG are often considered poor and are avoided by competitive medical students. Take what you will from that.

 

[1Path]

I really really find it hard to believe that blacks/hispanics seemingly are the only races that come down with strange illnesses during testing times. Hmm, maybe you can do some research on this strange illness.

Dude, you've got some SERIOUS issues. Just please do me a favor and DON'T matriculate at Hopkins. You're NOT going to fit in too well with those judgemental, racists opinions.

 

[visualwealth]

Yes, if a person has to take the MCATs multiple times it suggests two things. Either they were sick/nervous/had some tragedy occur or that they not prepared for the test. I can forgive the first option but if you aren't prepared for the MCAT then you can be considered an academically inferior student compared to someone else who took the test and did well.

What exactly is so hard to comprehend about that?

And conerning the boards, why is it that blacks and hispanics, the two main groups of considered URMs, who also matriculate into medical school with lower MCATs/GPAs (on average) tend to fail or defer their step 1s when compared to asians or whites?

I really really find it hard to believe that blacks/hispanics seemingly are the only races that come down with strange illnesses during testing times. Hmm, maybe you can do some research on this strange illness.

Face it, allowing URMs with lower scores into medical school only makes them less prepared and causes them to have a harder time in medical school. It creates a shadow of suspicion over their accomplishments and demeans the entire admissions process.

And conerning foreign grads, if Im not mistaken residency programs that have a lot of IMG are often considered poor and are avoided by competitive medical students. Take what you will from that.

I feel that URM's don't have to prove anything to anyone. Obviously, it does not matter how long it takes someone to graduate from med school or, complete their residency. As long as you complete the material, you have the mental faculties to be a doctor(That is, if you pass the test, you pass the test). Finally, you should know that being a doctor is a team sport and, it is a hands on activity. Thus, a perfect score on a exam DOES NOT manifest itself in good clinical skills. I mean think back to college was the kid that was receiving 100's on the test the best in lab... HELL NAW In my school there were kids that would bomb the test but still be very good in the lab setting... Quit being so cocky!! Next year when you get dominated and embarrassed in med school by smarter people(including URM’s) you will realize that your sophomoric attitude was absolutely egregious and uncalled for…

 

[1Path]

Quit being so cocky!! Next year when you get dominated and embarrassed in med school by smarter people(including URM’s) you will realize that your sophomoric attitude was absolutely egregious and uncalled for…

Now that I think about it, I hope he does end up at Hopkins. He'll quickly see that there's NO WAY to guess who's going to be at the top of the class.

 

[8744]

Trust me when I say that minorites especially Black people sufer a lot in courses where the grading is subjective. This manifests itself in term papers and Lab reports... Don't be fooled, we live in a racist society and, it is 1000X harder for a Black person to make it that any race... Look around the world buddy! In every country in the world the people that are treated the worst are the people with the darkest skin... Thus, black people face opression from all the different races... It is in most races mind that they are superior to black people ( the darker people) in this society... IF YOU CAN REMOVE THAT FROM PEOPLES MIND AND GIVE EVERY MINORITY A FAIR SHOT THEN AA WONT BE NECESSARY FOR THE FEW MINORITES THAT CANNOT OVERCOME THIS OPRESSION( I say this because I feel the minority of average intelligence is not on a even playing field with the non minority to average intelligence...) That is, their hard work is not recognized and they are essencially weeded out by idiots who feel that black people are inferior and dumb...

Easy now. Untwist the pointy end of yer' tinfoil hat. It is obviously too tight.

There. How's that? I bet you feel better. Repeat to yourself, "It is probably only 1.2 times harder for a dark skinned person to succeed in America than a white person, not 1000 times." This is not 1832. It is not 1925. Hell, it's not even 1964. There has been a lot of progress towards racial equality since I was born. There is no sin in acknowledging this. The people who think that black people are inferior or dumb are getting fewer and fewer and most of them live in single-wide trailers and have impossibly obese wives and daughters. You will certainly not find many of them on the admissions committees of medical schools.

 

[8744]

I bet the black students in my class had higher MCAT scores than I did. I am absolutely sure they had better Step 1 and Step 2 scores.

I suggest that you all just don't worry about Afirmative Action. It's impact on us unreconstructed white boys is probably exagerated. If you don't get into medical school its probably because you, yourself, are unqualified in some way. The fact that somebody with less qualificaitons got in does not mean that they "took your spot." By that reasoning, I somehow cheated everybody who was rejected by my medical school who's GPA was higher than 2.9 and who got higher than a 29 on the MCAT.

You'll drive yourself crazy thinking about it.

 

[erin682]

Your answer put my mind at ease - at least a little

Funny how you've only managed to get me and one other person answer the question that was the original intent of this thread. Everybody else keeps arguing in circles.

 

[delchrys]

think of it this way: if admissions were skewed to give the same "few" advantages to white applicants and not URMs, would it be something that we shouldn't worry about? would it be "not a big deal" and should we just advise URMs who would be "bitching" about unfair admissions practices to just shut up and deal with it and tell them that they will get in if their scores are good enough?

no way. it would be decried as the most vile form of racism in the modern world and it would become a political "hot topic." but, when the table is turned, as it is, all of a sudden it becomes not that big of a deal, and something that white people should just shut up about, and to complain about it is tantamount to putting on a white hood and burning a cross.

if race is used as a factor in determining eligibility for admissions to any program for any career or educational system, that is racist. it is racist by definition; it is not a matter of opinion. what AA proponents have been doing on this thread is arguing to justify racism.

 

[1Path]

Funny how you've only managed to get me and one other person answer the question that was the original intent of this thread. Everybody else keeps arguing in circles.

Using data form the AAMC website, I posted these stats on page 3 of this thread:

Black acceptance rate = 0.41%
White = 0.52
Native American = 0.28
Asian = 0.48

What's amazing is how many of you chose to ignore these facts.

 

[delchrys]

Using data form the AAMC website, I posted these stats on page 3 of this thread:

Black acceptance rate = 0.41%
White = 0.52
Native American = 0.28
Asian = 0.48

What's amazing is how many of you chose to ignore these facts.

no, it is you who continues to ignore the fact that black applicants, on average, have lower stats than their white counterparts. the black acceptance rate would be much lower for black applicants if admissions were done on a race-blind basis. you continue to ignore the fact that black applicants have, on average, MCATs and GPAs that are significantly lower than white applicants. why do you persist in arguing that even MORE less-qualified black applicants should be admitted in favor of their higher-scoring white counterparts? oh yeah, because you're racist and feel that white kids who bust their butts to do well should be screwed in favor of black kids who do worse than the screwed white kids simply because they're black.

i would never, and have never, argued for special treatment for white people, yet i am called racist. meanwhile, you and others with your mindset argue proudly for special treatment for black people and funny enough it is the folks from your side of the argument that most often are the ones calling me racist.

if hypocrisy were cows, you'd own the largest dairy farm in the northern hemisphere.

 

[ice_23]

Using data form the AAMC website, I posted these stats on page 3 of this thread:

Black acceptance rate = 0.41%
White = 0.52
Native American = 0.28
Asian = 0.48

What's amazing is how many of you chose to ignore these facts.

These facts omit the average statistics of those particular groups listed.

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

Funny how you've only managed to get me and one other person answer the question that was the original intent of this thread. Everybody else keeps arguing in circles.

This thread is entitled "Do Minorities have admissions advantages?" The simple answer is "Yes." However, many people feel (as they should) that that is a qualified "yes." Their reasons for that qualification are in dispute. We are not simply dogs chasing our tails here; it's an important policy question facing America.

-Ice

 

[erin682]

This thread is entitled "Do Minorities have admissions advantages?" The simple answer is "Yes." However, many people feel (as they should) that that is a qualified "yes." Their reasons for that qualification are in dispute. We are not simply dogs chasing our tails here; it's an important policy question facing America.

-Ice

Sorry I should have been more clear. I meant how the OP later came in and said what they originally wanted to find out by the thread ie will he/she face discrimination as a URM simple b/c some URM's have an easier time getting in. I fully recognize the importance of the issue and know that their is no simple answer to AA which is why I stated earlier that it won't be solved on an internet forum. What we can answer is our individual experiences of whether or not URM's are looked upon in our schools as getting an easy ride.

 

[Mutterkuchen]

think of it this way: if admissions were skewed to give the same "few" advantages to white applicants and not URMs, would it be something that we shouldn't worry about? would it be "not a big deal" and should we just advise URMs who would be "bitching" about unfair admissions practices to just shut up and deal with it and tell them that they will get in if their scores are good enough?

no way. it would be decried as the most vile form of racism in the modern world and it would become a political "hot topic." but, when the table is turned, as it is, all of a sudden it becomes not that big of a deal, and something that white people should just shut up about, and to complain about it is tantamount to putting on a white hood and burning a cross.

It happens all of the time. It's called the legacy system.

 

[1Path]

These facts omit the average statistics of those particular groups listed.
-Ice

What's "statistics" would you be referring to:
MCAT's??
GPA??
Ec's??
LOR's??
Who's parents were rich??
Whos' parents were poor??
Whos' ancestors have dealt with 450 years of opprssion?
Who had to work 3 jobs to pay for college?
Who's the relative of a US president or other elected official???
Whatever helps people feel superior" to other people???

Which "statistics" plays the biggest role in who was accepted to med school and who was not?

I meant how the OP later came in and said what they originally wanted to find out by the thread ie will he/she face discrimination as a URM simple b/c some URM's have an easier time getting in.

URM's have ALWAYS faced discrimination in this country, so why would being in medical school change ANYTHING?? Perhaps what the OP, as well as more than a few of the repondents of this thread needs, is a TRUE/HONEST/REAL US history lesson, which includes Black history!

 

[1Path]

It happens all of the time. It's called the legacy system.

What I'd like to know is why the legacies of SDN, and we KNOW they exist, haven't talked about THEIR advantage in admissions because Mom/Dad/Grand Ma/Grand Pa are doctors??

 

[delchrys]

It happens all of the time. It's called the legacy system.

yeah, except the legacy system is not based on the race of applicants.

this doesn't make it right. i don't think a single person in this thread has said they think legacy admissions are okay. so i guess i'm curious what the point of your post is, other than to demonstrate that you have not read any of the posts in this thread.

 

[delchrys]

What I'd like to know is why the legacies of SDN, and we KNOW they exist, haven't talked about THEIR advantage in admissions because Mom/Dad/Grand Ma/Grand Pa are doctors??

probably because they're embarrassed about it, and rightly so. unlike you, who wears your shameful 'racial admissions bonus' like a mark of pride.

 

[ice_23]

What's "statistics" would you be referring to:
MCAT's??
GPA??
Ec's??
LOR's??

These. They are what are used by American medical schools to objectively rate incoming students.

Who's parents were rich??
Whos' parents were poor??

You're not a fan of economic AA, so I wonder how this is relevant here. Your implication with these questions is that only URM's face this sort of problem. Other minorities and whites face these problems as well.

Whos' ancestors have dealt with 450 years of opprssion?

Is AA supposed to pay reparations for past wrongs? If so, other minorities may also have a claim.

Who had to work 3 jobs to pay for college?

In NYC and Chicago (the only two cities I can speak about) there are many people of different races (including white) that could answer "yes" to this question.

Who's the relative of a US president or other elected official???

Honestly, do you even read my posts? Contrary to popular belief, I am actually trying to answer the questions you pose. I have stated numerous times that admissions based on legacy are BS. So far, I have not seen one post that is in favor of legacy admissions but against AA. You keep slipping this topic into your posts like I'm going to accidentally support it.

Whatever helps people feel superior" to other people???

I'm not sure what you meant by this question, unless it was completely rhetorical.

Which "statistics" plays the biggest role in who was accepted to med school and who was not?

The questions you have posed apply to many different types of people, not just URM's.

I meant how the OP later came in and said what they originally wanted to find out by the thread ie will he/she face discrimination as a URM simple b/c some URM's have an easier time getting in.

URM's have ALWAYS faced discrimination in this country, so why would being in medical school change ANYTHING?? Perhaps what the OP, as well as more than a few of the repondents of this thread needs, is a TRUE/HONEST/REAL US history lesson, which includes Black history!

Sure the OP will face some discrimination, and that is a sad ill of America (although I believe it's less than it's been before). I'm not arguing that racism is not alive (and I do support teaching more black history in schools). Yet discrimination affects many different people, not just African-Americans.

I hope you also support ending ALL discrimination, and not just for African-Americans.

The real question is where do we fix the problem? I'd argue somewhere before post-undergraduate/undergraduate study. Eliminating discrimination will happen when we start earlier in people's lives, not later. Keeping AA might actually *cause* feelings of anger by groups not benefited by the program (especially other minorities who don't benefit).

-Ice

 

[Docta]

The point of the whole thing is not to right past wrongs, it is to address a health care crisis in minority communities. This began during the times in which minorities were opporessed by law, and continues to this day.

It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that that is what adcoms are addressing when they let a few less qualified URM applicants slip through. I am sorry to break it to you, but adcoms do not give a damn about you as an individual, especially if you have average stats for your group, and do not stand out. The bottom line is that adcoms belive that URMs, though many practice outside underserved areas, are far more likely to practice in underserved areas, thus addressing a problem that began centuries ago, and exists now. Look at the statistics of disease and life expectancy in URM communities.

Why not prove the adcoms wrong, and live and practice primary care in the ghetto, instead of complaining that "we should all be treated the same"? You say life isn't fair? No ****...ask any URM, they have lived with that lesson far longer than some med school applicant who is thinks he is discrminated against simply because he cannot stand out from his peer group.

 

[Docta]

no, i don't assert anything remotely like what you accuse me of saying. i ask a question--why is it immediately discarded as baseless and racist when anyone asks whether intelligence is a trait that varies according to race? why is there no serious inquiry into this matter, and instead we have a label ("racist") applied to the people who suggest that it is worth investigating?

you cannot make a race of people less intelligent by making them slaves--Lamarckian "genetics" is a fallacy and it seems you'd like to perpetuate that same myth here. what might 400 years of racial oppression do, though? it might create a culture in which getting an education and working hard for that education is "bad" since it is an act of complicity with the white society that oppressed one's ancestors. of course, that cultural phenomenon would be the result of individual choices to show disdain for education, and would implicate personal responsibility, which is, of course, a major no-no for anyone seeking to externalize the scapegoat and blame the cultural ills on another. well, here's some news--the people who practiced slavery are all dead, pal, and so are all those who were slaves. any attempt to obtain compensation from those who are alive is an attempt at theft--someone trying to "get theirs" for past slavery and racial injustice, if they try to get it from me, will for damned sure face opposition from me, as i have NOTHING to do with any perceived injustice their ancestors suffered, or that they currently suffer. taking from me to right wrongs perpetrated by someone else is nothing more than an act of theft and an extension of those wrongs to yet another social circle. of course, don't take it my opinion as valid--i'm a racist person, as you have clearly demonstrated. john mcwhorter, who is black, also shares my views, but of course, he must be racist as well? in fact, if you label everyone who disagrees with you "racist," well, then, you will have the perfect argument that no one can refute.

You cannot make a whole race less intelligent by making them slaves? Yes you can. HOW ABOUT DENYING THEM EQUAL EDUCATION FOR CENTURIES AND GENERATIONS? Will that do it, or at least have a negative impact on academic performance, which I do not equate with intelligence, but you do.


You are quite willing to ignore the effects of oppression on academic achievement, which is racist. Sorry you don't recognize it but it is what it is. You don't have to be actively oppressing people, or say "I hate all of this race", to have racist ideas. You take your own biases and are unwilling to acknowledge a mountain of evidence that has accumulated over centuries.

Do you really think that actively denying an entire race of people access to higher education, and denying them the freedom to associate with people who have had higher education, for generations and generations, would not have an effect on the performance of the children and grandchildren of these people, when you take an average of the enitre population? When you lock a person in a dark room for years, and let them out in the sunlight, do you belive had always been confused and disoriented when they have trouble functioning after being released?

Sorry, but it takes time for a community to bring their "test performance" up to the par after being denied education as a whole for centuries. Did your parents teach you anything? Did their parents teach them? And their parents? Anyone in the community? When you average an entire community that was not allowed to read or have equal education for generations, the average performance might be slightly lower for a bit of time...that is a lot more logical than making the assumotion that they were always inferior...it's called a racist assumption.

 

[OzDDS]

What I'd like to know is why the legacies of SDN, and we KNOW they exist, haven't talked about THEIR advantage in admissions because Mom/Dad/Grand Ma/Grand Pa are doctors??

There are black legacy admits too! ..and not only at Howard and Meharry mind you.

 

[MD'05]

It all clear now how that sorrow would decrease your MCAT scores and GPA compared to other IMMIGRANTS........................

Oh stop it with that crap. Immigrants from SouthEast Asia, India, etc. are eligible for federal monies to get started in the US. Mexican's get a kick in the ass.

 

[1Path]

....it is to address a health care crisis in minority communities. .... Look at the statistics of disease and life expectancy in URM communities..

Well said!!! My Master's project involved sickle cell disease, which primarily affects minorities. And my cancer research career will continue to focus on addressing health disparities in morbidity/mortality from cancer!

Why not prove the adcoms wrong, and live and practice primary care in the ghetto, instead of complaining that "we should all be treated the same"? .

You know it suddenly got so quiet in this thread that I can hear a rat pissing on cotton!

 

[ice_23]

Oh stop it with that crap. Immigrants from SouthEast Asia, India, etc. are eligible for federal monies to get started in the US. Mexican's get a kick in the ass.

URM's aren't eligible for federal monies?

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

Well said!!! My Master's project involved sickle cell disease, which primarily affects minorities. And my cancer research career will continue to focus on addressing health disparities in morbidity/mortality from cancer!

How is that any different from white people researching cystic fibrosis or Asians researching Hepatitis B/Cardiovascular Disease?

You know it suddenly got so quiet in this thread that I can hear a rat pissing on cotton!

I've known friends who weren't URM's who grew up in poor urban areas and are going back to work there. Please don't generalize.

-Ice

 

[ice_23]

Sorry, but it takes time for a community to bring their "test performance" up to the par after being denied education as a whole for centuries. Did your parents teach you anything? Did their parents teach them? And their parents? Anyone in the community? When you average an entire community that was not allowed to read or have equal education for generations, the average performance might be slightly lower for a bit of time...that is a lot more logical than making the assumotion that they were always inferior...it's called a racist assumption.

Why should ORM's have to compete on the same level as white people then, using your logic? It's not as if discrimination is solely limited to URM's.

I know of quite a few asian immigrant children who didn't have parents who could speak english nor do math. Yet they've still gotta compete on par?

-Ice

P.S. The arguments that many people posit here work for ORM's as well. I'm not advocating AA for both ORM's AND URM's, but for those who are supporting AA, they should be supporting it for ALL minorities in order for their argument to be somewhat more consistent.

 

[Perrin]

Do you really think that actively denying an entire race of people access to higher education, and denying them the freedom to associate with people who have had higher education, for generations and generations, would not have an effect on the performance of the children and grandchildren of these people, when you take an average of the enitre population? When you lock a person in a dark room for years, and let them out in the sunlight, do you belive had always been confused and disoriented when they have trouble functioning after being released?

Ok, I have heard about how white people have a 400~450 year advantage in education or whatever. Let's take a look at the educational system over that period of time, shall we. Most people (whites included) didn't start graduating from high school until around the 1950's. Hell, most people recieved only an elementary education for the past 200 years. My grandmother never graduated from 8th grade. Very few "whites" went to college or received any kind of advanced formal training. Now, the G.I. bill let many of the servicemen returning from WWII go to college. That was in the 1940's. That was when an explosion occured in college attendance. All my school did was train "better" farmers until then. Most medical education was rudamentary at best until the early 20th century. So, here is the score:

1600's
whites = dumb and uneducated
blacks = slaves

1700's
whites = dumb and uneducated
blacks = slaves

1800's
whites = dumb and uneducated
blacks = slaves

1900's
whites = dumb and uneducated
blacks = dumb and uneducated

So, there has only been an increase in education in the "white" population within the past 60 years. The "black" population is not so far behind. I don't know where everyone gets this "all the whites back in 1743 were chemical engineers and pondering the mysteries of the universe" crap. Most whites were little more intelligent than the blacks. What were we holding you back from....that wonderful grammer school education that most kids left to go work on the farm or in a factory.

Get a grip, get motivated, and get into med school

 

[1Path]

My grandmother never graduated from 8th grade.

Mine didn't either but your's could have if she had CHOOSEN to. Mine didn't have a CHOICE because she was black!

1600's
whites = dumb and uneducated
blacks = slaves

1700's
whites = dumb and uneducated
blacks = slaves

1800's
whites = dumb and uneducated
blacks = slaves

1900's
whites = dumb and uneducated
blacks = dumb and uneducated

And the number of whites who were lynched fighting for this country/using the GI bill to go to college is??????

The number of whites who were spat on after integrating public schools is?????

The number of whites that had to pass an amercian history exam to vote is???????

The number of whites with no high school diploma that can receive a job that a black peron must have a college degree for?? Infinite!!!

Looks as though instead of requiring the MCAT, maybe a course in american history should be reqired.

 

[MoosePilot]

Mine didn't either but your's could have if she had CHOOSEN to. Mine didn't have a CHOICE because she was black!



And the number of whites who were lynched fighting for this country/using the GI bill to go to college is??????

The number of whites who were spat on after integrating public schools is?????

The number of whites that had to pass an amercian history exam to vote is???????

The number of whites with no high school diploma that can receive a job that a black peron must have a college degree for?? Infinite!!!

And by the way genius, blacks were NOT slaves in this country until the late 17th century. Looks as though instead of requiring the MCAT, maybe a course in american history should be reqired.

The number of current med school applicants that have had any of those things happen is....?

 

[Perrin]

1600's = 17th century.......genius

 

[smkoepke]

Again, how is this any different than children of asian immigrants who's parent's or grandparent's may have never even finished a high school education and don't even speak english properly.. who ALSO may experience racial discrimination.

Again I am not for AA, just chiming in on certain posts that i can't agree with. Also this is again why i assert that early childhood education is the key for all of these under priviledged children. The quote i responded to was in reference to blacks, so that is how i focused my answer.

 

[1Path]

1600's = 17th century.......genius

Opps!!

Now about the rest of that post, GENIUS???

 

[Perrin]

Now, I am not advocating the policies of the US during those periods. In fact, I condemn them. However, your premise that a huge disparity existed between black and white education over the majority of 500 years, is laughable. The only advantage whites had was that MOST of them could read and write at about a 6th grade level.

I have an idea, let's go back in time and bring back an average white and an average black person from 1827. Then, we'll sit them down to take the MCAT, have them write a personal statement, and submit an AMCAS app. Since neither of them knows much about organic chemistry, physics, general chemistry, biology, or has the mental accumen to critically analyze and respond to an essay; they would both recieve around a 4 J. Now, we send this into a medical school that says, "Well Mr. Whitey Mctrustfund, it looks like we have two excellent candidates for our august institution. To whom shall we extend an acceptance? Our class is lacking in diversity so I would suggest we admit the black gentleman to round out the class."

So, we sample history, apply it to today's standards and result in a strange situation.

*Caution, the above scenario is based on anecdotal evidence, absurdity, and my own sense of humor*