Do people here still hate California Northstate?

[Goro]

WASC's criteria, as described to me by friends on the West Coast, are VERY different from those of LCME (or COCA) for that matter. Do not htink for a minute that CNU has dodged any bullets.

Actually, our WASC accreditation report just came out as well and I believe you're quite mistaken. By accreditation standards I think you could call their review glowing.
California Northstate University as an institution was renewed for the full 8 year accreditation term and it specifically states that CNU is a financially healthy institution with enough cash and equivalents to retire 96% of its long-term debt and that the COM is projected to have a positive net income by the 2018 calendar year. This review is consistent with my observation that the faculty in charge of hiring have been on a jubilant and extravagant hiring spree since the start of my M2 year. I have been highly impressed by the caliber and experience of our new hires. ( @aim-agm , @leela13 in case you want some light reading during your clerkships)

"
Commendations

The Commission commends California Northstate University in particular for the following:

1. A strong sense of institutional identity and a clearly articulated mission shared by faculty, staff, and students;
   
   
2. Dedication to and engagement with the community outside of the university;
   
   
3. A student-centered approach to learning and a commitment to the implementation of innovative educational practices;
   
   
4. A thoughtful and realistic approach to expanding the current infrastructure to provide increased support for students;
   
   
5. The positive engagement of the Board of Trustees with evidence-based decision-making and accreditation processes.

Recommendations

The Commission identifies the following issues for further development:

1. CNU graduate culture, with special attention and focus on supporting faculty as they conduct research, publish in peer reviewed journals, present at national and regional conferences, and seek grant funding (CFR 2.8, 2.9, 3.4, 3.5);
   
   
2. Recruitment and retention of faculty, staff, and administrators (CFR 3.1, 3.3, 4.6);
   
   
3. Critically examine organizational structures including roles, responsibilities, reporting structures, and communication expectations, to ensure that CNU continues to achieve its mission. (CFR 3.7);
   
   
4. Efforts to provide evidence of student learning, the effective use of program reviews as a basis for decisions regarding increasing educational effectiveness, and clear strategies for communicating student achievement in terms of both graduation rates and levels of student learning (CFR 2.7).

"

Points I appreciated that were stated outside the main accreditation letter:

- CNU’s Institutional Report was well written and informative. The Team appreciates how forthcoming CNU was in acknowledging both strengths and weaknesses identified during their self-study process.
- The site team experienced a culture of assessment and improvement that was evident in all interactions with staff and faculty.
- CNU has institutional research capacity that seems appropriate for its size.


LCME actions might be private, but the WASC report seems to indicate that we are not far off base in most areas and were justified in being granted an extension without probation by LCME. I know Northstate has your undying cynicism, but they are in fact making earnest effort and investment as I have stated many times.

Oh, and instead of being cryptic, for once, I'll just tell you that for #4 (among several other things) is referring to the fact that: // EDIT: Never-mind. It's better as a surprise. // And that (among other things), for #2, CNU's Deans of Student Affairs & Admissions are already involved in making a pipeline program to recruit local students of social and economic minorities. (And it happened before this thread threw a fit about it! Scandal alert!!)




Well that narrows it down. Send my warm regards. lol (I've been wondering when this rumor would hit the public.)
To answer your question: That statement is not true, but not entirely false. Kaiser would be the prospective buyer. My understanding is that the rest is untrue. It's a very complicated food chain with lots of things in play. Suffice to say that with the kind of money Kaiser has, IMO it's kind of irrelevant whether or not CNU's admins say Yes or No, the board of Trustees/investors or w/e it's called can override. Both parties have more to gain than you realize though. I think they'll play nice if everything comes into alignment.




hahaha. Right?! I've been wondering for months why nobody else has pointed this out!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[GnomeBeGone]

Indeed they are. But it provides some unbiased outside data at the very least.

At the same time, you can't immediately dismiss all their observations as irrelevant just because they focus on different areas than the programatic accreditors. Many of their observations were quite general.

CNU actually sincere about its mission to serve the local community. CNU actually still investing in improvements for students. CNU board of trustees do not appear flippant in how they are approaching accreditation standards. CNU is not about to go belly up due to unsustainable financial burdens.

 

[Nevergup]

CNU is a conservative pet project. Sorry.

Did you make an account jus to defend CNU? Why the fierce defense, anyway?


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile

because obviously this person has some kind of financial stake in the school. IMO.

 

[GnomeBeGone]

CNU is a conservative pet project.

I hear the ghost of Ayn Rand watches over it at night. Whispering her secrets.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

Look, obviously some people have to go to the school, and if you're applying this year or next year, you are rolling the dice by attending a school not fully accredited. That being said, for anyone who may be starting undergrad at this time, you should pay attention to the school, particularly:
- Do they become non-profit to allow for federal loans.
- do they receive full accreditation
- what is their pass rate on Step exams.
- what is their match rate?
- where do their students match?

Once you have that data, you can make a more informed decision. Until then, there are red flags that applicants will have to understand going in.

PS - also realize that unlike Fed loans, not all private loans are discharged if the borrower passes away. So if you have a spouse or dependents, realize your for-profit education may cost them should something happen to you.

 

[cactusman]

Look, obviously some people have to go to the school, and if you're applying this year or next year, you are rolling the dice by attending a school not fully accredited. That being said, for anyone who may be starting undergrad at this time, you should pay attention to the school, particularly:
- Do they become non-profit to allow for federal loans.
- do they receive full accreditation
- what is their pass rate on Step exams.
- what is their match rate?
- where do their students match?

Once you have that data, you can make a more informed decision. Until then, there are red flags that applicants will have to understand going in.

PS - also realize that unlike Fed loans, not all private loans are discharged if the borrower passes away. So if you have a spouse or dependents, realize your for-profit education may cost them should something happen to you.

They are eligible for federal loans even as a for-profit (as are Ponce, RVU, etc.) whose pharmacy school has already graduated its first class. They have apparently chosen not to allow their students the option of federal loans.

 

[WinnDi]

CNU seems Caribbean like in their ability to gouge their students.

 

[GnomeBeGone]

CNU seems Caribbean like in their ability to gouge their students.

And clearly you have also taken the time to scrutinize the cash flow at other schools and hold them to the same standards before coming to this conclusion. Have you compared the tuition at each DO/MD school to their total class/enrollement and then calculated total revenue for each school? Then on top of that considered tax breaks as well as direct financial support in considering what is a reasonable price? You're telling me with those giant (~200+ on average?) entering classes that DO schools aren't raking in the cash? Squirreling that money away into endowment funds beneath a giant tax umbrella? No?--passing along the savings to students are they?? Right. What do you imagine Med Ed was thinking about when he compared CNU's tuition dependent structure to existing financial models in the U.S. medical education field?

 

[Nevergup]

I suppose until we see step 1 and match data we should give benefit of the doubt.

 

[gyngyn]

I suppose until we see step 1 and match data we should give benefit of the doubt.

This has little to do with the deficits of the administration (investors).
I wish the students well. I know some of them and interviewed a few. That is why the acts of harm committed by the investors need to remain on the front burner.
Even if shame is insufficient to move them, applicants should be well-informed.

 

[Med Ed]

Yes, they've gotten rather creative on that front. ( @Goro , this is the lengthy part I mentioned I'd get to later in another thread.)

The timelines below are ~approximate~ since this is largely derived from me chatting up one of their investors as an M1.

So as some of you may know, CNU hired all the same key people who started Texas Tech's El Paso med school to start theirs (and many of those same faculty have gone on to boot other medical schools that SDN hasn't batted an eyelash at. Go figure....). CNU invested in buildings and manpower and those people did the same things that that did at Texas Tech to prepare for opening a new MD school. LCME comes back and says "hmm, looks risky. Probably doomed to fail; we'll let you open if you raise 50 million in operating overhead."

The underlying assumption being that the Pharmacy school wouldn't be able to cobble together that kind of $$$$$ in time. They did. CNU Comes back and then LCME sits on the application for a year bleeding them dry (the building, staff, etc. were all hired and ready). CNU gets testy and then they finally come back and say, "Make it 75 million and then you can open." CNU spends the next 6 months doing a final push to raise the money. Breathless and with a heavy piggy bank, CNU runs back to LCME and says it's ready. LCME continues stalling.

After waiting long enough to not appear unreasonable, CNU comes back and says, "Look, we've done everything you've asked, if you don't rule on our application we're going to take you to court over this." - Anyone with half a brain could figure out that if you go to a court and say, "Hey judge, check it out--- we hired all the same people to start a med school that opened another one successfully, but when they did the exact same thing here, it wasn't good enough." That's a reprimand form the court and economic+punitive damages waiting to happen. - So, shortly thereafter, CNU gets its preliminary accreditation.

Interesting story. You left out that your founding dean was actually fired from Texas Tech, and subsequently resigned from CNU to head CalMed because he is (and I quote) "addicted to starting new medical schools." Next time you see Dr. Silva you should give him a hug. He's the reason you're there.

At any rate, requiring $75 million in opening funds for a new medical school, especially in an area with a high cost of living, is not unreasonable. Commonwealth started in nowhere PA with a little over $30 million plus a promise of state funds. When that evaporated they went broke, went on probation, went through about four deans in about five years, and ultimately got acquired by the nearest wealthy health system. I know of another school that started with just over $100 million and still had problems when the bills for clinical eduction came due. Suffice to say that I would be curious to hear the side of the co-secretariats.

The next part of this story is not news to SDN: CNU, not wanting to wait any longer (and not wanting to wait for LCME to find a way to change its mind), did a lightning round with 2019's applications and matriculated 60 from a pool of ~680 applications. You can quibble about how neat or not the demographics came out from that, but when you're draining investor dollars to the tune of what ... ? ... ~8 mil per year (my guesstimate) if there are no classes enrolled?

So, if I have this straight, on the one hand CNU had millions of extraneous dollars lying around, on the other they decided to aggravate the LCME even more to get their hands on 60 x 55,000 = $3.3 million in tuition and fees. From an outsider's perspective this merely adds to the mystery that is the CNU School of Medicine.

At a certain point I think you're living in a (tax-payer funded) fantasy world if you think the perfect distribution of skin tones and genitals is more important than matriculating a class that you know can take a beating and sail the choppy waters of inaugurating a program.

The problem isn't "skin tones and genitals," although I'm sure your colleagues would love to hear themselves described in those terms. No, the problem is that by seating a class so quickly, and despite 680 applications having it end up so stilted in terms of gender and race/ethnicity, CNU erected a blinking neon sign that reads "WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE DOING WITH ADMISSIONS." Perhaps you don't appreciate this, but admission processes have become one of the most commonly cited elements in LCME accreditation visits, and thus one of the central reasons why school cross the line into probation.

And then, to make matters even better, in the subsequent year the class ends up being 50/40 male to female and 88% white/ORM. Anyone with any sense would have done whatever it took to mitigate admissions concerns prior to the next site visit. But I reckon no longer being the worst will have to do.

 

[Med Ed]

Actually, our WASC accreditation report just came out as well and I believe you're quite mistaken. By accreditation standards I think you could call their review glowing.

As mentioned above, don't confuse your parent institution's region accreditor with the LCME. WASC accredits a wide variety of higher education organizations, ranging from the UC's to the Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising (which also got a rather glowing report), Trident University (whose major purpose appears to be transferring money from the military to itself via distance "learning"), and Simpson University, an institution that has been on probation, warning, or notice of concern for 18 of the 29 years from 1981 to 2010.

Regional accreditors generally take a 15,000 feet view, and as long as you aren't hemorrhaging students and faculty they won't lift a finger. If I were you I'd treat that report with all the reverence it deserves and hang it on the refrigerator.

 

[GnomeBeGone]

Interesting story. You left out that your founding dean was actually fired from Texas Tech, and subsequently resigned from CNU to head CalMed because he is (and I quote) "addicted to starting new medical schools." Next time you see Dr. Silva you should give him a hug. He's the reason you're there.

Dean Silva's great - I might just do that. I'm perfectly aware that he didn't need to come out of retirement to start another medical school in Sacramento. I always got a kick out of the times he spontaneously decides he wants to be your OSCE instructor that day if he gets a few spare minutes, or the selection of articles he finds salient enough to forward to the class listserv. That being said, while the Deans are high-profile that's not actually who I was alluding to in this case; there are several people. I'm sure you know there are different levels and areas where you need to be an absolutely policy wonk for the mountains of LCME paperwork that must each be met in a literal sense but with the creativity to not mirror other programs. They can make the big bucks on short contracts; I'm sure Suskind realized that too. Or perhaps he just likes experimentation in education. Who knows, maybe I'll meet him one day.

At any rate, requiring $75 million in opening funds for a new medical school, especially in an area with a high cost of living, is not unreasonable. Commonwealth started in nowhere PA with a little over $30 million plus a promise of state funds. When that evaporated they went broke, went on probation, went through about four deans in about five years, and ultimately got acquired by the nearest wealthy health system. I know of another school that started with just over $100 million and still had problems when the bills for clinical eduction came due. Suffice to say that I would be curious to hear the side of the co-secretariats.


So, if I have this straight, on the one hand CNU had millions of extraneous dollars lying around, on the other they decided to aggravate the LCME even more to get their hands on 60 x 55,000 = $3.3 million in tuition and fees. From an outsider's perspective this merely adds to the mystery that is the CNU School of Medicine.

Certainly an interesting counter example. I suspect CNU functions because COP operates on large margins and COM will operate on very thin margins. I think that part of the trajectory for the COM to become self-sustaining relies on how desirable the MD degree is such that it can help boot feeder programs, etc. You're right, the 3.3M is a pittance in the grand scheme of things, but investor dollars can also have attached strings and in this case it was time limits.

The problem isn't "skin tones and genitals," although I'm sure your colleagues would love to hear themselves described in those terms. No, the problem is that by seating a class so quickly, and despite 680 applications having it end up so stilted in terms of gender and race/ethnicity, CNU erected a blinking neon sign that reads "WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE DOING WITH ADMISSIONS." Perhaps you don't appreciate this, but admission processes have become one of the most commonly cited elements in LCME accreditation visits, and thus one of the central reasons why school cross the line into probation. And then, to make matters even better, in the subsequent year the class ends up being 50/40 male to female and 88% white/ORM. Anyone with any sense would have done whatever it took to mitigate admissions concerns prior to the next site visit. But I reckon no longer being the worst will have to do.

The ones I showed that quip to certainly got a laugh out of it. And by the way, that's soon to be "skin tones, genitals, and Step scores" according to the WAMC threads on SDN. I think my class has a huge breadth of experiences, backgrounds, and personalities that can't be reduced to aggregate admissions data. In fact I'd bet money that CNU was the only place that read many of my classmates essays. If there is anything in the admissions process that I am cynical of it's that there's a magic combination of reportable statistics that magically creates a harmonious canvas of humanity and physician altruism.

As for the LCME bit, the school did take notice well in advance of our site visit. They appointed a chief diversity officer and recruited student members for the steering committee. "88% white/ORM" is fishing for a reaction and a touch disingenuous--that total ORM divided by 90 you used to get 88% on MSAR adds up to 118% if used across all categories (I'm assuming you averaged the discrepancy between the school website data and MSAR overlap data). Meaning we have biracial students or students counted in multiple categories. The majority in 2020 being Asian (legitimately curious: has that actually happened anywhere else?). If you've been to CA then you know just many cultural backgrounds that umbrella entails.

On the flip side, if you're referring to African American or Mexican American candidates, as a student interviewer I can tell you it's certainly not for lack of interviewing them! I can't tell you how many times I've interviewed someone and thought: this person is amazing--too bad we're probably going to get out-recruited by an established school. I think admissions is slowly realizing that keeping these highly sought after candidates is harder than they realized too. Hence exploration of pipeline programs I mentioned earlier. Although to level with you, No, prior to you saying that, admissions data would not have been one of my top guesses of pitfalls to avoid in the programatic accreditation to grant an MD.

Regional accreditors generally take a 15,000 feet view, and as long as you aren't hemorrhaging students and faculty they won't lift a finger. If I were you I'd treat that report with all the reverence it deserves and hang it on the refrigerator.

Done!! lol ... And I'm perfectly aware that WASC was the easy one---a cakewalk compared to some of the pointed, rapid-fire questioning of the LCME team---but when it so directly contradicts the arm chair swivel chair speculation on SDN I don't think you can hand wave all their assessment away either. Especially on CNU's financials and the more subjective elements. LCME and WASC do interface and share.

 

[GnomeBeGone]

@Med Ed .... So I'm probably going to regret asking a question here where the answer requires outside speculation, but would you indulge me with a more detailed policy/standards-oriented answer on this: I assume the lack of probation action means that CNU hasn't totally dropped the ball and isn't going anywhere for now--and I also assume we're not the first school to be delayed in the accreditation pipeline. I have a limited set of post-decision confirmations on top of what I already knew/inferred, but not the full data set.

So I suppose what I'm asking for is: What is the LCME epidemiology of schools early in the accreditation pipeline? I've not been particularly satisfied with the LCME reported data I've found since there are so few schools that have started since they really started cracking the whip after the 2002 LCME standards reformatting. The data on established schools receiving severe accreditation decisions (a whopping 31% !! - most of which were not publicly levied actions), while illuminating, does not address the unique challenges and use of adverse accreditation actions in developing programs.

In your mind, what standards/elements (besides admissions, that horse is a pile of glue already) strike you as most likely to trip up new programs (any new program) in a way that would slow them down but not be serious enough to result in probation?

 

[CyrilFiggis]

And clearly you have also taken the time to scrutinize the cash flow at other schools and hold them to the same standards before coming to this conclusion. Have you compared the tuition at each DO/MD school to their total class/enrollement and then calculated total revenue for each school? Then on top of that considered tax breaks as well as direct financial support in considering what is a reasonable price? You're telling me with those giant (~200+ on average?) entering classes that DO schools aren't raking in the cash? Squirreling that money away into endowment funds beneath a giant tax umbrella? No?--passing along the savings to students are they??

Well here's the problem with your argument there. And I say this as someone at a 200+ MD program. Without getting into too much of the weeds of medical school economics, on average, tuition only accounts for roughly 10-15% of the cost of running a medical school. Two of the largest factors contributing to medical school operating costs are clinical practice plans and hospital programs. They are typically between 45-55% of the operating revenue of a medical school.

So with those two you still have 30% of a medical school's operating costs unaccounted for. Another 10% comes from federal/state grants, fudning, etc. This is where you see a difference between DO and MD, because typically DO schools aren't as invested in research and receive less grant money. They also don't operate academic medical centers like allopathic schools so that is lower as well.

Finally, many of the top programs in the country are also bolstered by gifts to their endowment. When a program continuously creates high earning physicians, they are more likely to donate to their alma mater. This allows them to hold tuition costs down and more importantly provide more tuition discounts. PCOM has a total endowment of around $165 Million. UPenn, only 7 miles south, had a single donation 4 years ago of $225 Million from the Perelman family. So knowing a little more know about medical school financial structure, I hope you reconsider your previous comment.

 

[Goro]

@Med Ed .... So I'm probably going to regret asking a question here where the answer requires outside speculation, but would you indulge me with a more detailed policy/standards-oriented answer on this: I assume the lack of probation action means that CNU hasn't totally dropped the ball and isn't going anywhere for now--and I also assume we're not the first school to be delayed in the accreditation pipeline. I have a limited set of post-decision confirmations on top of what I already knew/inferred, but not the full data set.

So I suppose what I'm asking for is: What is the LCME epidemiology of schools early in the accreditation pipeline? I've not been particularly satisfied with the LCME reported data I've found since there are so few schools that have started since they really started cracking the whip after the 2002 LCME standards reformatting. The data on established schools receiving severe accreditation decisions (a whopping 31% !! - most of which were not publicly levied actions), while illuminating, does not address the unique challenges and use of adverse accreditation actions in developing programs.

In your mind, what standards/elements (besides admissions, that horse is a pile of glue already) strike you as most likely to trip up new programs (any new program) in a way that would slow them down but not be serious enough to result in probation?

Lack of probation simply means that at this point, CNU lawyers are better than LCMEs. This won't last for long. I appreciate that you want to be true to your school, but CMU is on the radar, and NOT in a good way.

 

[GnomeBeGone]

Lack of probation simply means that at this point, CNU lawyers are better than LCMEs. This won't last for long. I appreciate that you want to be true to your school, but CNU is on the radar, and NOT in a good way.

I'm not just being true to my school. I could have just stayed home and studied from First Aid, but instead I got my a** involved. So did many others. While everyone else was out not taking it seriously, CNU was getting its act together, expanding its footprint, and making partnerships. This is my and my classmates' hard work too and I will stand by that until this place goes up in flames.

And a point of clarification: Not lawyers, Lawyer. Singular. And during the site visit, the only meeting in which CNU's one super-lawyer was involved in was giving the overview of the finalized versions of our uniform clinical affiliation agreement documents.

What made him formidable is that he has an honest face and caught them red handed in a legal standard of wrong doing. His only sway is if he can demonstrate LCME deviated from its rules of procedure (or changed those rules to arbitrarily target us) or held us to a different standard than other schools. And by the way, at that particular time, he was involved in such nefarious activities as getting stalled building permits moving for renovations on CNU property.

The way I see it, there are three options: the lack of probation was A) a mature gesture by LCME to forget the past and move forward in a cooperative work environment without having all their inquiries proxied though super-lawyer. B) They still have it out for us but they knew they didn't have us by the nads. C) the randomization process works and bias was not a significant factor in this decision. I'm actually inclined to say C. The site team was tough but fair (at least, in my interactions with them). How much politics matter once their report is completed is a different story that I'm not fully sure about.

LCME standards are extremely dense but it doesn't take a mastermind (hell, I'm pretty sure I could attain compliance for provisional if I could just see the damn full citation list). I've already charted out which standards we were likely to have been cited on + cross referenced against their typical severe accreditation decisions at established schools. The nice thing about LCME's reformatted standards is that for as much as its implementation has resulted in probation/headache for existing schools, to me those reformatted standards represent a systematic strategy to CYA. Maybe I should make a career out of this? The data I wasn't able to mine is their decision making process for the phase-in at new schools.

So once again, I'm asking Med Ed for the hypothetical of what standards tend to trip up new programs in general but that might be considered lower severity. This may prove illuminating for all of us.

 

[Goro]

Interesting how a medical student knows so much deep info about the logistics and operations of a med school. Just sayin'.

I'm not just being true to my school. I could have just stayed home and studied from First Aid, but instead I got my a** involved. So did many others. While everyone else was out not taking it seriously, CNU was getting its act together, expanding its footprint, and making partnerships. This is my and my classmates' hard work too and I will stand by that until this place goes up in flames.

And a point of clarification: Not lawyers, Lawyer. Singular. And during the site visit, the only meeting in which CNU's one super-lawyer was involved in was giving the overview of the finalized versions of our uniform clinical affiliation agreement documents.

What made him formidable is that he has an honest face and caught them red handed in a legal standard of wrong doing. His only sway is if he can demonstrate LCME deviated from its rules of procedure (or changed those rules to arbitrarily target us) or held us to a different standard than other schools. And by the way, at that particular time, he was involved in such nefarious activities as getting stalled building permits moving for renovations on CNU property.

The way I see it, there are three options: the lack of probation was A) a mature gesture by LCME to forget the past and move forward in a cooperative work environment without having all their inquiries proxied though super-lawyer. B) They still have it out for us but they knew they didn't have us by the nads. C) the randomization process works and bias was not a significant factor in this decision. I'm actually inclined to say C. The site team was tough but fair (at least, in my interactions with them). How much politics matter once their report is completed is a different story that I'm not fully sure about.

LCME standards are extremely dense but it doesn't take a mastermind (hell, I'm pretty sure I could attain compliance for provisional if I could just see the damn full citation list). I've already charted out which standards we were likely to have been cited on + cross referenced against their typical severe accreditation decisions at established schools. The nice thing about LCME's reformatted standards is that for as much as its implementation has resulted in probation/headache for existing schools, to me those reformatted standards represent a systematic strategy to CYA. Maybe I should make a career out of this? The data I wasn't able to mine is their decision making process for the phase-in at new schools.

So once again, I'm asking Med Ed for the hypothetical of what standards tend to trip up new programs in general but that might be considered lower severity. This may prove illuminating for all of us.

 

[GnomeBeGone]

Interesting how a medical student knows so much deep info about the logistics and operations of a med school. Just sayin'.

I'll take that as the nicest compliment since you liked one of my jokes last year! lol

Taking something and running with it is a point of personal pride! As much as I wanted an MD from a state school, I probably learned so much more here.
Students sit on all major committees at CNU. Dean Silva felt it was very important to have stakeholders involved. Other than their finances they are usually pretty transparent internally IMO.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Interesting how a medical student knows so much deep info about the logistics and operations of a med school. Just sayin'.

I was thinking the same thing, but I didn't want to say anything since I haven't started med school yet.

 

[Med Ed]

So once again, I'm asking Med Ed

Jesus, I do have a job.

for the hypothetical of what standards tend to trip up new programs in general but that might be considered lower severity. This may prove illuminating for all of us.

Just ask your own FAL. Or you can read SLU's probation letter as a roadmap of what not to do. Or you can download WSU's DCI and play spot the red flags.

These Northstate threads all sort of take on the same character, with current students and/or other assorted apologists arriving on the scene to humanize the school and counter every criticism. While this makes for enlivening and entertaining banter, ultimately it misses the forest. Or rather, the two forests that explain why people hate on CNU.

The first relates to CNU being for-profit. I know people want to wave this off as nothing more than a tax structure, or northsplain how inconvenient it is to achieve non-profit status, but on some level you have to appreciate how troubling it is to see for-profit entities encroaching on medical education. We've already had to deal with the sterilization and commoditization of health care delivery, and we've all watched as the DeVrys and Corinthians and U of Phoenixes have further watered down and commoditized what it means to have an education. Forgive us for a moment if we saw the arrival of for-profit in allopathic education as the Visigoths appearing at our gates. I know, I know, plenty of people remain steadfast in claiming that the LCME is our bulwark against a decline in medical school quality. Perhaps this will turn out to be true, but, considering some of the sentiments expressed previously in this thread about the LCME, I hope you could appreciate the irony in that outcome.

The second forest may sound a bit personal, but I assure you it is not. Simply put, the California Northstate University School of Medicine seems to have no real reason to exist. It is not openly attempting to fill any specific medical need in California or elsewhere. It does not appear bent on advancing medical science in any meaningful way. There is no talk of disrupting health systems in general. Nope, it's just going to generate revenue by cranking out MD's, who will ultimately translate into fewer FMGs/IMGs getting residency positions. If a meteor vaporized the place tomorrow night the world would simply shrug and move on, sort of like when a homeless man dies behind a bus stop. It doesn't make you bad people, and you aren't alone, but that's how many folks see it.

 

[GnomeBeGone]

Jesus, I do have a job.

Oh thank god.
I about died laughing when I read the first line---because I'm not sure I have many more of these left in me either. Some final thoughts as well then.

There is no talk of disrupting health systems in general.

LOL, were the established MD schools about to strike on that front? I'll wait.

Northstate might not have made any power moves yet, but I wouldn't rule out any of its students! This place is full of characters.
As completely comical (perhaps fanciful. okay, downright lunatic.) as this sounds, this experiment took a heap of California-feel-the-Bern liberals, sprinkled in a few die hard libertarians, the business imagination of Alvin Cheung, gave them physician business owners/leaders as mentors (with a lot of practical advice!), set them loose in a fast paced start-up environment, and then is funneling us into the well-oiled Kaiser behemoth. Maybe it will all fall apart. But if it doesn't, and I had to make a bet about where someone having some imagination about disrupting healthcare would come from, I think this place could make the list.

I'm certainly considering much more varied career trajectories now.

Anyway, I thank you for the response though. Playing DCI-hunt is one idea that didn't occur to me. The whole tree-forest analogy I get and I've read your response to that effect in previous threads, so I appreciate where you're coming from and why some faculty feel so strongly against it. (Although, man, that homeless thing was dark....)

.......butttttttttt maybe, just maybe, some of you reading this will privately reflect on how, no matter where we are, there are those of us who really got into this game for the right reasons. Even at CNU. Keep an open mind if you meet any of us.


Thanks for reading folks, it's been a fun thread.

 

[Med Ed]

LOL, were the established MD schools about to strike on that front? I'll wait.

Let's compare some missions statements of new schools.

UT Austin Dell Medical School - Disruption
Revolutionize how people get and stay healthy by: -Educating leaders who transform health care; -Evolving new models of person-centered, multidisciplinary care that reward value; -Advancing innovation from discovery to outcomes; -Improving health in our community as a model for the nation; and -Redesigning the academic health environment to better serve society.

UNLV School of Medicine - Medical Need
UNLV School of Medicine will be a full-scale, four-year allopathic medical school that is an integral part of a vibrant, research-intensive public university. The medical school's mission is to improve access to high-quality health care in Southern Nevada by increasing the number of physicians and trained specialists who are committed to serving the region. One of the primary goals of UNLV School of Medicine is to provide diverse and medically underserved populations access to timely high quality health care. The accompanying academic health center will serve as the core infrastructure for the entire medical community and generate top-quality research that spans the basic and clinical sciences.

Virginia Tech Carilion - Research
To develop physician thought leaders through inquiry, research and discovery, using an innovative curriculum based upon adult learning methods in a patient-centered context. Our graduates are physicians with outstanding clinical skills and significantly enhanced research capabilities who will remain life-long learners. They have an understanding of the importance of interprofessionalism to enable them to more effectively function as part of a modern healthcare team.

California Northstate University - ?
To Advance the Art and Science of Medicine through Education, Service, Scholarship, and Social Accountability

Northstate might not have made any power moves yet, but I wouldn't rule out any of its students! This place is full of characters.
As completely comical (perhaps fanciful. okay, downright lunatic.) as this sounds, this experiment took a heap of California-feel-the-Bern liberals, sprinkled in a few die hard libertarians, the business imagination of Alvin Cheung, gave them physician business owners/leaders as mentors (with a lot of practical advice!), set them loose in a fast paced start-up environment, and then is funneling us into the well-oiled Kaiser behemoth. Maybe it will all fall apart. But if it doesn't, and I had to make a bet about where someone having some imagination about disrupting healthcare would come from, I think this place could make the list.

You're right, this is comical.

Thanks for reading folks, it's been a fun thread.

We look forward to greeting your successor.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

For-profit universities account for 40% of student loan default in the US. Hopefully CNU doesn't add to that.

Also, it'll be interesting to see what happens once Kaiser opens its med school in 2019. They did try and buy you so I could see them pushing out CNU clerkships to give space to their students.

 

[Goro]

"northsplain"






California Northstate University - ?
To Advance the Art and Science of Medicine through Education, Service, Scholarship, and Social Accountability


That's it?? At my school I had to sit through hours of meetings to come up with a mission statement. I frankly hate the term mission statement..it's so 1990s "let's make everything we do relevant". But my school actually has some meat in ours, at least. CNUs' looks like someone took 15 minutes to google search and cherry pick key words from other school's statements. Jeeze.

EDIT: as a reminder, we are criticizing CNU's administration and motives, NOT its students!

 

[Med Ed]

EDIT: as a reminder, we are criticizing CNU's administration and motives, NOT its students!

True, students remain in the basket of adorables.

 

[Goro]

True, students remain in the basket of adorables.

I love this guy!

 

[WingedOx]

I'll take that as the nicest compliment since you liked one of my jokes last year! lol

Taking something and running with it is a point of personal pride! As much as I wanted an MD from a state school, I probably learned so much more here.
Students sit on all major committees at CNU. Dean Silva felt it was very important to have stakeholders involved. Other than their finances they are usually pretty transparent internally IMO.

This is amazing... and not in a good way.

 

[Youcantellme]

My son is considering to apply for Pre-Med/MD combined program. He is a rising Senior at highschool. I tried to get more detail information about this school and Premed/MD program but it was not enough and still unclear about this school. My Son`s SAT(New 1520/Old 2250/GPA(W 4.7/5) is Top 3% at his high school so he will also apply for top IVY collegs as well but his prioriety is PreMed/MD program. Strictly, would anybody can give a advice or more detail information about this school and this program who already enrolled or anybody who know enrolled and studied at this school?

Is this program deserve to apply for instead of waiving Top 20 Colleges at this school?
Due to some rumors and unstable accreditation status, we are not sure to see if this school is ok for investing his future or not..

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

My son is considering to apply for Pre-Med/MD combined program. He is a rising Senior at highschool. I tried to get more detail information about this school and Premed/MD program but it was not enough and still unclear about this school. My Son`s SAT(New 1520/Old 2250/GPA(W 4.7/5) is Top 3% at his high school so he will also apply for top IVY collegs as well but his prioriety is PreMed/MD program. Strictly, would anybody can give a advice or more detail information about this school and this program who already enrolled or anybody who know enrolled and studied at this school?

Is this program deserve to apply for instead of waiving Top 20 Colleges at this school?
Due to some rumors and unstable accreditation status, we are not sure to see if this school is ok for investing his future or not..

For the love of God, do not have him apply to CNU. I'd also recommend not applying for a combined program. College is the time to explore. He might fall in love with something other than medicine.

 

[Med Ed]

My son is considering to apply for Pre-Med/MD combined program. He is a rising Senior at highschool. I tried to get more detail information about this school and Premed/MD program but it was not enough and still unclear about this school. My Son`s SAT(New 1520/Old 2250/GPA(W 4.7/5) is Top 3% at his high school so he will also apply for top IVY collegs as well but his prioriety is PreMed/MD program. Strictly, would anybody can give a advice or more detail information about this school and this program who already enrolled or anybody who know enrolled and studied at this school?

Is this program deserve to apply for instead of waiving Top 20 Colleges at this school?
Due to some rumors and unstable accreditation status, we are not sure to see if this school is ok for investing his future or not..

Combined BS/MD programs are mainly populated by individuals whose parents want them to be physicians. My anecdotal experience is that they have higher rates of depression, burnout, and academic failure than those who go through the "normal" admissions process. This is directly related to the fact that many of them are force-marched into a very difficult and consuming career path. Frankly, I always find it concerning when parents post in this forum, and this is no exception.

All that said, your son sounds like a smart guy, and if you care about his long-term health and well being you will send him to a reputable 4-year college/university where he feels that he fits in and is challenged academically. Then step back and give him whatever space, support, and encouragement he needs to manage his own interests and ambitions. His only true happiness will come from within.

Sincerely,

Someone who has been in academic medicine for over two decades

 

[mwsapphire]

My son is considering to apply for Pre-Med/MD combined program. He is a rising Senior at highschool. I tried to get more detail information about this school and Premed/MD program but it was not enough and still unclear about this school. My Son`s SAT(New 1520/Old 2250/GPA(W 4.7/5) is Top 3% at his high school so he will also apply for top IVY collegs as well but his prioriety is PreMed/MD program. Strictly, would anybody can give a advice or more detail information about this school and this program who already enrolled or anybody who know enrolled and studied at this school?

Is this program deserve to apply for instead of waiving Top 20 Colleges at this school?
Due to some rumors and unstable accreditation status, we are not sure to see if this school is ok for investing his future or not..

He can do way,way better than CNU. He's better off at whatever top college he can get into then applying to med school the traditional way. If you really wanna try a BS/MD, look at some of the better programs that have one (Mnt Sinai/Northwestern to name a couple). The MSAR will tell you what med schools have BS/MD programs.
Good luck to your son


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[gyngyn]

My son is considering to apply for Pre-Med/MD combined program. He is a rising Senior at highschool. I tried to get more detail information about this school and Premed/MD program but it was not enough and still unclear about this school. My Son`s SAT(New 1520/Old 2250/GPA(W 4.7/5) is Top 3% at his high school so he will also apply for top IVY collegs as well but his prioriety is PreMed/MD program. Strictly, would anybody can give a advice or more detail information about this school and this program who already enrolled or anybody who know enrolled and studied at this school?

Is this program deserve to apply for instead of waiving Top 20 Colleges at this school?
Due to some rumors and unstable accreditation status, we are not sure to see if this school is ok for investing his future or not..

If you read this thread in its entirety, I am sure you will come to the right decision.

 

[anonimoose]

Always interesting to go back and read some older threads.

Here is a sample of the (SDN forum) opposition faced by Rocky Vista University (RVU) College of Osteopathic Medicine, the first for-profit medical school in the United States (California Northstate University [CNU] College of Medicine is the second).

"Help Save The Profession" (2007 June)

"Opposition to Rocky Vista" (2007 July)

"Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"!" (2007 July)

"The problem with Rocky Vista (and other for-profits)" (2007 July)

"Opposition to Rocky Vista For-Profit Osteopathic School" (2007 August)

"How on God's green earth do we stop Rocky Vista??" (2007 August)

"Do Not Apply To Rocky Vista" (2007 August)

""for-profit" school?? The AOA won't do anything, can the AMA help??" (August 2007)

And here is Rocky Vista's latest match list from Spring 2017:

Anesthesiology (10)
Riverside University Health System, Riverside, CA
San Antonio Military Medical Center, San Antonio, TX
University of California San Francisco, San Francisco, CA
University of Illinois College of Medicine, Chicago, IL
University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics, Iowa City, IA
University of Kansas School of Medicine, Wichita, KS
University of Kentucky Medical Center, Lexington, KY
University of Texas Health Science Center, San Antonio, TX
University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX
University of Wisconsin Madison School of Medicine and Public Health, Madison, WI
Critical Care (1)
University of New Mexico School of Medicine, Albuquerque, NM
Diagnostic Radiology (4)
Aurora St. Luke’s Medical Center, Milwaukee, WI
Baylor Scott & White, Temple, TX
Beaumont Hospital, Dearborn, MI
Creighton University Affiliated Hospitals, Omaha, NE
Emergency Medicine (13)
Akron General Medical Center | Cleveland Clinic, Akron, OH
Beaumont Hospital, Farmington Hills, MI (2)
Comanche County Memorial Hospital, Lawton, OK
Desert Regional Medical Center, Palm Springs, CA
Drexel University College of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA
Saint Vincent Hospital, Erie, PA
Stony Brook Teaching Hospitals, Stony Brook, NY
University of Connecticut School of Medicine, Farmington, CT
University of Rochester/Strong Memorial, Rochester, NY
University of Texas at Austin Dell Medical School, Austin, TX
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, OH (2)
Family Medicine (30)
Advocate BroMenn Medical Center, Normal, IL
Canyon Vista Medical Center, Sierra Vista, AZ
Community Memorial Health System, Ventura, CA
Eastern Maine Medical Center, Bangor, ME
Eisenhower Army Medical Center, Ft. Gordon, Augusta, GA
Fort Collins Family Medicine, Fort Collins, CO (2)
Indiana University Health Ball Memorial Hospital, Muncie, IN
McAlester Regional Health Center, McAlester, OK
McLaren Bay Region, Bay City, MI
Mercy Health St. Joseph Warren Hospital, Warren, OH
Mercy Medical Center North Iowa, Mason City, IA
Montana Family Medicine, Billings, MT
North Colorado Medical Center, Greeley, CO
Providence St. Peter Hospital, Olympia, WA (2)
Rapid City Regional Hospital, Rapid City, SD
Sky Ridge Medical Center, Lone Tree, CO (3)
South Nassau Communities Hospital, Oceanside, NY
St. Mary-Corwin Medical Center, Pueblo, CO
St. Vincent’s Medical Center Riverside, Jacksonville, FL
Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center, Amarillo, TX
Trios Health, Kennewick, WA
University of Kansas School of Medicine, Wichita, KS (2)
University of Montana, Missoula, MT
University of Nevada Reno School of Medicine, Reno, NV
Ventura County Medical Center, Ventura, CA
General Surgery (13)
Beaumont Hospital, Farmington Hills, MI
Eisenhower Army Medical Center, Augusta, GA
Genesys Regional Medical Center, Grand Blanc, MI
MediSys Health Network, Flushing, NY
Naval Medical Center, Portsmouth, VA
Saint Joseph Hospital | SCL Health, Denver, CO (2)
Sky Ridge Medical Center, Lone Tree, CO
St. Anthony Hospital, Lakewood, CO
St. Joseph Mercy Oakland, Pontiac, MI
University of Colorado School of Medicine, Denver, CO
University of North Dakota School of Medicine, Grand Forks, ND
University of Texas Medical Center, Houston, TX
Internal Medicine (33)
Baylor Scott & White, Temple, TX
Geisinger Health System, Danville, PA
Hennepin County Medical Center, Minneapolis, MN (3)
Idaho Physicians Clinic | Bingham Memorial Hospital, Blackfoot, ID
Kennedy University Hospital | Our Lady of Lourdes, Stratford, NJ
Maine Medical Center, Portland, ME
Medical College of Wisconsin Affiliated Hospitals, Milwaukee, WI
Mercy Medical Center, Des Moines, IA
Mount Caramel Health System, Columbus, OH
Orange Regional Medical Center, Middletown, NY
Parkview Medical Center, Pueblo, CO (2)
Redmond Regional Medical Center, Rome, GA
Regional Medical Center Bayonet Point, Hudson, FL (2)
Saint Joseph Hospital | SCL Health, Denver, CO (2)
San Antonio Military Medical Center, San Antonio, TX (2)
Scripps Clinic/Green Hospital, La Jolla, CA
Skagit Regional Health, Mount Vernon, WA
Sky Ridge Medical Center, Lone Tree, CO
St. Bernards Medical Center, Jonesboro, AR
St. John Macomb-Oakland Hospital, Michigan
University of Arizona Osteopathic College of Medicine, Tucson, AZ
University of Colorado School of Medicine, Aurora, CO
University of Cincinnati Medical Center, Cincinnati, OH
University of Connecticut School of Medicine, Farmington, CT
University of Florida School of Medicine, Jacksonville, FL
William Beaumont Army Medical Center, El Paso, TX (2)
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics (1)
Louisiana State University School of Medicine, New Orleans, LA
Neurology (2)
University of Florida College of Medicine, Jacksonville, FL
Medical University of South Carolina, Charleston, SC
Interventional Radiology (1)
University of Illinois College of Medicine, Chicago, IL
Obstetrics/Gynecology (7)
Grand Rapids Medical Education Partners, Grand Rapids, MI
Kern Medical Center, Bakersfield, CA
Oklahoma State University Medical Center, Tulsa, OK
Providence Park Hospital, Novi, MI
Sinai Hospital of Baltimore, Baltimore, MD
St. Vincent Indianapolis Hospital, Indianapolis, IN
University of Connecticut School of Medicine, Farmington, CT
Orthopedic Surgery (3)
OhioHealth Doctors Hospital, Columbus, OH
Jersey City Medical Center, Jersey City, NJ
San Antonio Military Medical Center, San Antonio, TX
Pediatrics (10)
Blank Children’s Hospital, Des Moines, IA
Geisinger Health System, Danville, PA
Good Samaritian Hospital and Medical Center, West Islip, NY
Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA
Nationwide Children’s Hospital, Columbus, OH
Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center, Amarillo, TX
University of Nebraska Medical Center, Omaha, NE (2)
University of New Mexico School of Medicine, Albuquerque, NM
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, OH
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation (4)
Louisiana State University School of Medicine, New Orleans, LA
Medical College of Wisconsin Affiliated Hospitals, Milwaukee, WI
St. Mary Mercy Hospitals, MI
Walter Reed National Military Medical Center, Bethesda, MD
Preliminary Surgery (4)
Baystate Medical Center, Springfield, MA
Rush University Medical Center, Chicago, IL
University of Missouri Hospital, Columbia, MO
University of Washington, Seattle, WA
Psychiatry (8)
Baylor Scott & White, Temple, TX
Centerstone of Flordia, Bradenton, FL
Creighton University School of Medicine, Omaha, NE
Sky Ridge Medical Center, Lone Tree, CO
State University of New York Health Sciences Center, Brooklyn, NY
University of Missouri Hospital, Columbia, MO
University of Michigan Hospital and Health System, Ann Arbor, MI
University of Nevada Reno School of Medicine, Reno, NV
Research Fellowship (1)
Valley Consortium for Medical Education, Modesto, CA
Traditional Rotating Internship (5)
Cape Fear Valley Health, Fayetteville, NC
Hemet Valley Medical Center, Hemet, CA
Lewis-Gale Regional Health System, Blacksburg, VA
Nassau University Medical Center, East Meadow, NY
Sky Ridge Medical Center, Lone Tree, CO
Transitional Year(4)
Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA (2)
Naval Medical Center, San Diego, CA
San Antonio Military Medical Center, San Antonio, TX
http://www.rvu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Residency_MatchList_2017.pdf

No one -- no one -- can predict the future. It is possible that all of the critics will be proven right and that CNU will collapse spectacularly in a few years. However, it is also possible that ten years from now, CNU graduates will enjoy the same sort of professional success as that enjoyed by RVU graduates. A decade later, those hyperbolic calls to action -- e.g. "Help save the profession!" ultimately proved to be just that -- hyperbole.

For prospective applicants to RVU, CNU, and Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine in New Mexico (now the third for-profit medical school in the country): caveat emptor and all that; there is wisdom in the warnings.

But for what it's worth -- ten years after all the hate and discontent thrown RVU's way -- there's a RVU graduate going into anesthesiology at UCSF. I don't think any of RVU's critics could've predicted/imagined/conceded that outcome a decade ago.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

I hear students there take an arrow to the knee during MS 1.

 

[cactusman]

Always interesting to go back and read some older threads.

Here is a sample of the (SDN forum) opposition faced by Rocky Vista University (RVU) College of Osteopathic Medicine, the first for-profit medical school in the United States (California Northstate University [CNU] College of Medicine is the second).

"Help Save The Profession" (2007 June)

"Opposition to Rocky Vista" (2007 July)

"Stop the Accreditation of "Rocky-Vista"!" (2007 July)

"The problem with Rocky Vista (and other for-profits)" (2007 July)

"Opposition to Rocky Vista For-Profit Osteopathic School" (2007 August)

"How on God's green earth do we stop Rocky Vista??" (2007 August)

"Do Not Apply To Rocky Vista" (2007 August)

""for-profit" school?? The AOA won't do anything, can the AMA help??" (August 2007)

And here is Rocky Vista's latest match list from Spring 2017:

Anesthesiology (10)
Riverside University Health System, Riverside, CA
San Antonio Military Medical Center, San Antonio, TX
University of California San Francisco, San Francisco, CA
University of Illinois College of Medicine, Chicago, IL
University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics, Iowa City, IA
University of Kansas School of Medicine, Wichita, KS
University of Kentucky Medical Center, Lexington, KY
University of Texas Health Science Center, San Antonio, TX
University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX
University of Wisconsin Madison School of Medicine and Public Health, Madison, WI
Critical Care (1)
University of New Mexico School of Medicine, Albuquerque, NM
Diagnostic Radiology (4)
Aurora St. Luke’s Medical Center, Milwaukee, WI
Baylor Scott & White, Temple, TX
Beaumont Hospital, Dearborn, MI
Creighton University Affiliated Hospitals, Omaha, NE
Emergency Medicine (13)
Akron General Medical Center | Cleveland Clinic, Akron, OH
Beaumont Hospital, Farmington Hills, MI (2)
Comanche County Memorial Hospital, Lawton, OK
Desert Regional Medical Center, Palm Springs, CA
Drexel University College of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA
Saint Vincent Hospital, Erie, PA
Stony Brook Teaching Hospitals, Stony Brook, NY
University of Connecticut School of Medicine, Farmington, CT
University of Rochester/Strong Memorial, Rochester, NY
University of Texas at Austin Dell Medical School, Austin, TX
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, OH (2)
Family Medicine (30)
Advocate BroMenn Medical Center, Normal, IL
Canyon Vista Medical Center, Sierra Vista, AZ
Community Memorial Health System, Ventura, CA
Eastern Maine Medical Center, Bangor, ME
Eisenhower Army Medical Center, Ft. Gordon, Augusta, GA
Fort Collins Family Medicine, Fort Collins, CO (2)
Indiana University Health Ball Memorial Hospital, Muncie, IN
McAlester Regional Health Center, McAlester, OK
McLaren Bay Region, Bay City, MI
Mercy Health St. Joseph Warren Hospital, Warren, OH
Mercy Medical Center North Iowa, Mason City, IA
Montana Family Medicine, Billings, MT
North Colorado Medical Center, Greeley, CO
Providence St. Peter Hospital, Olympia, WA (2)
Rapid City Regional Hospital, Rapid City, SD
Sky Ridge Medical Center, Lone Tree, CO (3)
South Nassau Communities Hospital, Oceanside, NY
St. Mary-Corwin Medical Center, Pueblo, CO
St. Vincent’s Medical Center Riverside, Jacksonville, FL
Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center, Amarillo, TX
Trios Health, Kennewick, WA
University of Kansas School of Medicine, Wichita, KS (2)
University of Montana, Missoula, MT
University of Nevada Reno School of Medicine, Reno, NV
Ventura County Medical Center, Ventura, CA
General Surgery (13)
Beaumont Hospital, Farmington Hills, MI
Eisenhower Army Medical Center, Augusta, GA
Genesys Regional Medical Center, Grand Blanc, MI
MediSys Health Network, Flushing, NY
Naval Medical Center, Portsmouth, VA
Saint Joseph Hospital | SCL Health, Denver, CO (2)
Sky Ridge Medical Center, Lone Tree, CO
St. Anthony Hospital, Lakewood, CO
St. Joseph Mercy Oakland, Pontiac, MI
University of Colorado School of Medicine, Denver, CO
University of North Dakota School of Medicine, Grand Forks, ND
University of Texas Medical Center, Houston, TX
Internal Medicine (33)
Baylor Scott & White, Temple, TX
Geisinger Health System, Danville, PA
Hennepin County Medical Center, Minneapolis, MN (3)
Idaho Physicians Clinic | Bingham Memorial Hospital, Blackfoot, ID
Kennedy University Hospital | Our Lady of Lourdes, Stratford, NJ
Maine Medical Center, Portland, ME
Medical College of Wisconsin Affiliated Hospitals, Milwaukee, WI
Mercy Medical Center, Des Moines, IA
Mount Caramel Health System, Columbus, OH
Orange Regional Medical Center, Middletown, NY
Parkview Medical Center, Pueblo, CO (2)
Redmond Regional Medical Center, Rome, GA
Regional Medical Center Bayonet Point, Hudson, FL (2)
Saint Joseph Hospital | SCL Health, Denver, CO (2)
San Antonio Military Medical Center, San Antonio, TX (2)
Scripps Clinic/Green Hospital, La Jolla, CA
Skagit Regional Health, Mount Vernon, WA
Sky Ridge Medical Center, Lone Tree, CO
St. Bernards Medical Center, Jonesboro, AR
St. John Macomb-Oakland Hospital, Michigan
University of Arizona Osteopathic College of Medicine, Tucson, AZ
University of Colorado School of Medicine, Aurora, CO
University of Cincinnati Medical Center, Cincinnati, OH
University of Connecticut School of Medicine, Farmington, CT
University of Florida School of Medicine, Jacksonville, FL
William Beaumont Army Medical Center, El Paso, TX (2)
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics (1)
Louisiana State University School of Medicine, New Orleans, LA
Neurology (2)
University of Florida College of Medicine, Jacksonville, FL
Medical University of South Carolina, Charleston, SC
Interventional Radiology (1)
University of Illinois College of Medicine, Chicago, IL
Obstetrics/Gynecology (7)
Grand Rapids Medical Education Partners, Grand Rapids, MI
Kern Medical Center, Bakersfield, CA
Oklahoma State University Medical Center, Tulsa, OK
Providence Park Hospital, Novi, MI
Sinai Hospital of Baltimore, Baltimore, MD
St. Vincent Indianapolis Hospital, Indianapolis, IN
University of Connecticut School of Medicine, Farmington, CT
Orthopedic Surgery (3)
OhioHealth Doctors Hospital, Columbus, OH
Jersey City Medical Center, Jersey City, NJ
San Antonio Military Medical Center, San Antonio, TX
Pediatrics (10)
Blank Children’s Hospital, Des Moines, IA
Geisinger Health System, Danville, PA
Good Samaritian Hospital and Medical Center, West Islip, NY
Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA
Nationwide Children’s Hospital, Columbus, OH
Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center, Amarillo, TX
University of Nebraska Medical Center, Omaha, NE (2)
University of New Mexico School of Medicine, Albuquerque, NM
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, OH
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation (4)
Louisiana State University School of Medicine, New Orleans, LA
Medical College of Wisconsin Affiliated Hospitals, Milwaukee, WI
St. Mary Mercy Hospitals, MI
Walter Reed National Military Medical Center, Bethesda, MD
Preliminary Surgery (4)
Baystate Medical Center, Springfield, MA
Rush University Medical Center, Chicago, IL
University of Missouri Hospital, Columbia, MO
University of Washington, Seattle, WA
Psychiatry (8)
Baylor Scott & White, Temple, TX
Centerstone of Flordia, Bradenton, FL
Creighton University School of Medicine, Omaha, NE
Sky Ridge Medical Center, Lone Tree, CO
State University of New York Health Sciences Center, Brooklyn, NY
University of Missouri Hospital, Columbia, MO
University of Michigan Hospital and Health System, Ann Arbor, MI
University of Nevada Reno School of Medicine, Reno, NV
Research Fellowship (1)
Valley Consortium for Medical Education, Modesto, CA
Traditional Rotating Internship (5)
Cape Fear Valley Health, Fayetteville, NC
Hemet Valley Medical Center, Hemet, CA
Lewis-Gale Regional Health System, Blacksburg, VA
Nassau University Medical Center, East Meadow, NY
Sky Ridge Medical Center, Lone Tree, CO
Transitional Year(4)
Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA (2)
Naval Medical Center, San Diego, CA
San Antonio Military Medical Center, San Antonio, TX
http://www.rvu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Residency_MatchList_2017.pdf

No one -- no one -- can predict the future. It is possible that all of the critics will be proven right and that CNU will collapse spectacularly in a few years. However, it is also possible that ten years from now, CNU graduates will enjoy the same sort of professional success as that enjoyed by RVU graduates. A decade later, those hyperbolic calls to action -- e.g. "Help save the profession!" ultimately proved to be just that -- hyperbole.

For prospective applicants to RVU, CNU, and Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine in New Mexico (now the third for-profit medical school in the country): caveat emptor and all that; there is wisdom in the warnings.

But for what it's worth -- ten years after all the hate and discontent thrown RVU's way -- there's a RVU graduate going into anesthesiology at UCSF.

Fun fact: Puerto Rico is located in the United States, so the 1977 establishment of the for-profit Ponce Health Sciences University should change the numbering (first for profit, etc.), as someone mentioned earlier.

 

[Med Ed]

But for what it's worth -- ten years after all the hate and discontent thrown RVU's way -- there's a RVU graduate going into anesthesiology at UCSF.

You should write their PR: "Rocky Vista University: Ten Years of Debt and Derision, One Solid Match."

There have been some recent articles on this phenomenon that may be of interest, including this AP story and this piece in JAMA. They underscore that the perceived threat from for-profit schools does not emanate from individual institutions. Rather, folks are worried about longer-term shifts in the medical education landscape that will ultimately leave a lot of students marginally educated, saddled with debt and diminished residency prospects, and in the process harm traditional not-for-profit medical schools. RVU, CNU, and BCOM are just the canaries in the proverbial coal mine.

 

[Med Ed]

Fun fact: Puerto Rico is located in the United States, so the 1977 establishment of the for-profit Ponce Health Sciences University should change the numbering (first for profit, etc.), as someone mentioned earlier.

Ponce was not-for-profit until it was acquired by for-profit Arist in 2014.

 

[cactusman]

Ponce was not-for-profit until it was acquired by for-profit Arist in 2014.

Interesting! Graduation rate, etc. are pretty low for an MD school, I wonder if they were any higher while it was not for profit. I doubt it since they tend to take lower stats students and PR has plenty of its own problems, but I'm too lazy to look up the historical stats right now.

 

[leela13]

Alright I had sworn off SDN but I'm back just to say: I'm currently an M3 at CNU and have not regretted coming to this school for a second. I've been on rotations for about 10 weeks now and the preceptors seem really excited to have us. I'm learning so much and I think the school prepared us well for rotations. And I felt more than prepared for Step 1. I understand people's concerns about coming to a new school. I expressed those same concerns on SDN 2 years ago when I was deciding to come here. All I have to say is: take what you read on SDN with a grain of salt. If you get an II, go to it. Talk to current students. Feel out the school. Decide for yourself.

 

[watermelon master]

Alright I had sworn off SDN but I'm back just to say: I'm currently an M3 at CNU and have not regretted coming to this school for a second. I've been on rotations for about 10 weeks now and the preceptors seem really excited to have us. I'm learning so much and I think the school prepared us well for rotations. And I felt more than prepared for Step 1. I understand people's concerns about coming to a new school. I expressed those same concerns on SDN 2 years ago when I was deciding to come here. All I have to say is: take what you read on SDN with a grain of salt. If you get an II, go to it. Talk to current students. Feel out the school. Decide for yourself.

When do you take Step 1?

 

[leela13]

When do you take Step 1?

June

Edit: Sorry, my brain read that as "when DID you take Step 1". In general medical students take Step 1 after their second year. For some schools that's as early as March, and for some schools it's as late as July or August. It just depends on the school and on the student. I know some med schools nowadays are having students take Step 1 after a year of rotations. I don't know if that means those students start clinical rotations during M2 or if they just take their test after M3.

 

[watermelon master]

June

Do all M3s take step 1 at the end of their 3rd year? So if I am correct, nobody has taken the step yet at your school?

 

[leela13]

Do all M3s take step 1 at the end of their 3rd year? So if I am correct, nobody has taken the step yet at your school?

Students usually take Step 1 after their M2 year. I think almost all (if not all) of my classmates have taken Step 1.

 

[watermelon master]

Students usually take Step 1 after their M2 year. I think almost all (if not all) of my classmates have taken Step 1.

Got it. Is there an important reason for why you are taking it at the end of M3? Is this good information for prospective applicants to know about?

 

[WingedOx]

Alright I had sworn off SDN but I'm back just to say: I'm currently an M3 at CNU and have not regretted coming to this school for a second. I've been on rotations for about 10 weeks now and the preceptors seem really excited to have us. I'm learning so much and I think the school prepared us well for rotations. And I felt more than prepared for Step 1. I understand people's concerns about coming to a new school. I expressed those same concerns on SDN 2 years ago when I was deciding to come here. All I have to say is: take what you read on SDN with a grain of salt. If you get an II, go to it. Talk to current students. Feel out the school. Decide for yourself.

┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻| _
┻┳| •.•) Students are poor judges of
┳┻|⊂ﾉ the quality of their own schools.
┻┳|

 

[leela13]

┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻| _
┻┳| •.•) Students are poor judges of
┳┻|⊂ﾉ the quality of their own schools.
┻┳|

Perhaps, but I still think I'm more qualified than someone who knows literally nothing about my school. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I am open to sharing my perspective.

 

[leela13]

Got it. Is there an important reason for why you are taking it at the end of M3? Is this good information for prospective applicants to know about?

I took step 1 at the end of M2. I just started M3. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Smelt]

┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻| _
┻┳| •.•) Students are poor judges of
┳┻|⊂ﾉ the quality of their own schools.
┻┳|

You're right. That's why I don't talk to current students during interview days. Much better to rely on the advice of those trusty SDNers!

 

[Dox4lyfe]

┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻|
┻┳|
┳┻| _
┻┳| •.•) Students are poor judges of
┳┻|⊂ﾉ the quality of their own schools.
┻┳|

This is a psychological phenomenon known as post-decisional dissonance. Occurs when a person makes an important and potentially irrevocable decision. Because the decision of attending this school has already been made by its students, the only thing they can do is to change their view and beliefs about the school in order to see it in the most positive light possible.