DO school Tuition and Debt!

[SpartanWolverine]

Obviously there are differences between DO schools, some are more well connected and have more research opportunities... But cost of tuition doesn't necessarily correlate with a good school right?

That's what I don't understand LECOM (I'll use them as the example because their tuition is so cheap) is much cheaper a year than most schools and they still seem to have a good match every year.

I'll bet if you narrowed the DO schools down to only the ones you think are well connected and have more opportunities and then looked at their tuition you would still have a massive range. I don't understand why these astronomical tuitions even exist...

I'm sure someone has a better answer, but the only think I can say is... the astronomical tuition exists because it can. Our government basically throws unlimited money at medical schools for our "benefit" but opens up the possibility that tuition can continue to rise at a ridiculous rate since every student has the capability to pay for it (this is the Bennett hypothesis).

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[Rekt]

It's solely because every school still gets ridiculous amounts of applicants despite how high they raise their tuition. Even if the tuition rises to 100k/year, there will be plenty of applicants to do/pay anything to become a physician.

 

[mathnerd88]

Obviously there are differences between DO schools, some are more well connected and have more research opportunities... But cost of tuition doesn't necessarily correlate with a good school right?

That's what I don't understand LECOM (I'll use them as the example because their tuition is so cheap) is much cheaper a year than most schools and they still seem to have a good match every year.

I'll bet if you narrowed the DO schools down to only the ones you think are well connected and have more opportunities and then looked at their tuition you would still have a massive range. I don't understand why these astronomical tuitions even exist...

LECOM, considering that it has over 450 applicants, does not produce as good of a match list as PCOM, or RowanSOM comparatively. Obviously there are a few exceptions, and some LECOM students get in to good residency programs, but overall, it isn't nearly as good as PCOM's match list. The percentage of students from PCOM who get into more competitive programs are higher than that of LECOM's.

However, LECOM would be a very compelling choice against other schools that aren't the big state/big name schools, since tuition is cheap. LECOM also skimps a little bit on its curriculum. You get already prosected cadavers, and the rotations are kind of iffy compared to other schools. Also, research is almost nonexistent there.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

I'm sure someone has a better answer, but the only think I can say is... the astronomical tuition exists because it can. Our government basically throws unlimited money at medical schools for our "benefit" but opens up the possibility that tuition can continue to rise at a ridiculous rate since every student has the capability to pay for it (this is the Bennett hypothesis).

Unfortunately this is probably true... And I think it's going to hurt family practice more than anything else.

It's sickening all that money is going to the feds in interest and med school administrators pockets (I'm assuming that's where it's going). That money could be used for far better things IMO.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

LECOM, considering that it has over 450 applicants, does not produce as good of a match list as PCOM, or RowanSOM comparatively. Obviously there are a few exceptions, and some LECOM students get in to good residency programs, but overall, it isn't nearly as good as PCOM's match list. The percentage of students from PCOM who get into more competitive programs are higher than that of LECOM's.

However, LECOM would be a very compelling choice against other schools that aren't the big state/big name schools, since tuition is cheap. LECOM also skimps a little bit on its curriculum. You get already prosected cadavers, and the rotations are kind of iffy compared to other schools. Also, research is almost nonexistent there.

So is it worth an extra $15,000 a year ($45,000+ interest total) to go to a school that has a little better match list and more connections?

I can't decide... I guess a lot depends on what specialty you want to pursue. $50,000 less in debt at the end is compelling though.

 

[mathnerd88]

So is it worth an extra $15,000 a year ($45,000+ interest total) to go to a school that has a little better match list and more connections?

I can't decide... I guess a lot depends on what specialty you want to pursue. $50,000 less in debt at the end is compelling though.

That is entirely up to you. I mean, college students go through the same thing. Is a private school worth $15-20k a year more than going to an in-state university? Some people really care where they're going to live, and will pay extra just to be near a large city such as Chicago, NY, Philly, Boston, etc.

At least in my opinion, going to any of the top 20 colleges is worth the tuition, but after that, going to an in-state school would be more cost effective.

 

[DrMikeP]

I have no problem discussing one DO school being better than another, but if you want to debate the point then it should be over measurable things that impact one's future success like scores, pass rates, residency placement, etc. Then if someone wants to compare those to tuition fine. But saying a school is better based on subjective factors holds limited weight in a measure of quality.

When determining what school you attend then subjective factors should definitely play into personal decisions of cost/value!! Example: Do you want mandatory attendance or do you want online classes. Nova according to US News is one of the most expensive medical degrees out there, but it is located in South Florida and someone might be happy to pay $30K/yr more for the sun and heat. That doesn't make Nova a better school overall just because of the location, as some may not want to live in a place overdue for a hurricane.

Ultimately, less than half of all med school applicants get accepted so the best school for most is which ever one they get admitted to.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

I don't think that contributes to this thread, but I have been accepted to all the schools I interviewed at, and declined an interview invite. I will tell you though, that PCOM has a graduate who is a surgical resident at one of the top Boston area hospitals. I believe the name does carry, because traditionally DO's are not accepted in Boston area hospitals for residency, and there are no DO schools nearby, and the nearest DO school UNECOM is two states over.

I'm a firm believer that PCOM has connections that are spread far and wide, and looking at their match list is extremely impressive. I also come from a family of physicians, one of them being an attending at the top hospital in the US. (The hospital alternates with JHU as #1 in the US.) There is a clear bias there against DO's.

Even the DO I shadowed only recommended that I either go to an established school with good rotations like PCOM, CCOM, NYCOM or a state school like UNECOM, MSUCOM, RowanSOM, KCUMB, etc. I told her that LECOM was super cheap, and she told me don't go there because a lot of students hated going there because of the strict rules. She also mentioned that CCOM was not worth the tuition, and to go to a cheap established school. When I mentioned CUSOM, she gave me a blank stare and asked what was that? I loved CUSOM's school and resources and they even offered me a scholarship which would make tuition $30k. However, knowing that it may be an uphill battle if I wanted to go to residency back in the Northeast, I decided to go elsewhere to a more expensive in state school.

Believe it or not, there is not necessarily a "ranking" system for DO's, but the established name does take you far. Many residency programs have been touched by a graduate from an established school, and they're more willing to take that graduate over another from a new name school they've never heard of. That's why where you go to medical school has an impact, however small or big, on where you will go for residency. Obviously board scores are extremely important, but connections are also just as important. I can give anecdotal evidence where I know people with subpar stats get into top medical schools because of someone they knew personally. These connections are stronger at more established schools. This goes back to my main point, is that it is somewhat important to go to a school in an area where you're happy also doing residency at, because the medical school will have connections within the surrounding area with those residency program directors.

my gosh, I have heard it all now folks. Do you read what I post or do you have a predisposition set in your mind already while you skim through my posts? You are the person who single handedly derailed this forum by bringing up BCOM And you can't answer a simple question about the schools you were accepted to? Calm down, gunner, no one is trying to dethrone you. There is an old saying that still floats around today, "it's not about the grades you make, it's the hands you shake." Many schools offer research, the boards test all medical students the same, and letters of recommendation still hold weight...if you want to get into a specific program then you are ultimately going to have to do what you have to do to make that happen. Your advice is heavily biased, you way or the highway.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I don't understand this. I know so many family medicine trained docs that easily break 200k/year. You guys really can't live for a few years on less than six figures? I'm raising a family on 50k/year!




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[mathnerd88]

my gosh, I have heard it all now folks. Do you read what I post or do you have a predisposition set in your mind already while you skim through my posts? You are the person who single handedly derailed this forum by bringing up BCOM And you can't answer a simple question about the schools you were accepted to? Calm down, gunner, no one is trying to dethrone you. There is an old saying that still floats around today, "it's not about the grades you make, it's the hands you shake." Many schools offer research, the boards test all medical students the same, and letters of recommendation still hold weight...if you want to get into a specific program then you are ultimately going to have to do what you have to do to make that happen. Your advice is heavily biased, you way or the highway.

Well, I see a totally different side, as you've asked me which medical school I was going to in another thread that has nothing to do with its topic either.

I see you as someone who is trying to make others look bad when it's convenient. When someone hints at all a potential problem of a school, especially one that you like, you start to become belligerent. None of us are actually insulting one school or another. I was just pointing out some hypocrisies in the statements you have made in the past.

I don't think anyone is actually trying to "dethrone me," so I don't understand what you're trying to say there. Everyone has his/her own opinions about what school is best for them. I just think it is important for everyone to be well informed to be able to make that decision.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

Well, I see a totally different side, as you've asked me where I was going to school in a forum that has nothing to do with its topic either.

Yet you still avoid the question while still wasting a post to reply a senseless comment. Cheers.

 

[mathnerd88]

Yet you still avoid the question while still wasting a post to reply a senseless comment. Cheers.

If you really must know, I interviewed at LECOM-E, LECOM-B, CUSOM, CCOM, and RowanSOM. I declined an interview at ATSU-KCOM. I'm waiting on PCOM and Nova for a response. I don't have any ties to PA nor FL, so I'm not expecting much. These are the only schools I've been complete at.

I apologize if you're taking things the wrong way. I don't want any animosity here. I just felt a little uncomfortable that you're asking me personal questions on a public forum that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

If you really must know, I interviewed at LECOM-E, LECOM-B, CUSOM, CCOM, and RowanSOM. I declined an interview at ATSU-KCOM. I'm waiting on PCOM and Nova for a response. I don't have any ties to PA nor FL, so I'm not expecting much. These are the only schools I've been complete at.

I apologize if you're taking things the wrong way. I don't want any animosity here.

Thank-you. I am assuming since Rowan is your top choice you are pretty much set on that school then. I plan on doing research in medical school, well, I have no choice even if I didn't want to because it is required. I wish you the best of luck and good times while you study to excel in your field. To be on topic, the debt is only temporary.

 

[mathnerd88]

Thank-you. I am assuming since Rowan is your top choice you are pretty much set on that school then. I plan on doing research in medical school, well, I have no choice even if I didn't want to because it is required. I wish you the best of luck and good times while you study to excel in your field. To be on topic, the debt is only temporary.

Yes, I was actually really afraid of CCOM's tuition, and even upon asking students there about tuition, they give me an answer saying that they try not to think about it, and will deal with it when the time comes.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

I don't understand this. I know so many family medicine trained docs that easily break 200k/year. You guys really can't live for a few years on less than six figures? I'm raising a family on 50k/year!




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The problem is I'll finish residency when I'm nearly forty years old, I don't want to be spending my forties and fifties living off 50k a year because of all my debt. I don't mind living dirt poor for another 10 years, but eventually I'd like to put away money for retirement and buy a house, that may not be possible with half a million bucks of student loans, even with 200k a year salary.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

The problem is I'll finish residency when I'm nearly forty years old, I don't want to be spending my forties and fifties living off 50k a year because of all my debt. I don't mind living dirt poor for another 10 years, but eventually I'd like to put away money for retirement and buy a house, that may not be possible with half a million bucks of student loans, even with 200k a year salary.

I'm in the same boat as you. I'll be a bit younger but still would have grossed nearly $1M with little debt if I went BSN/MSN or BBA/MBA and made ~$80-125k/yr. So it's the difference between having a house and ~$200k+ in retirement savings vs. no money, no real assets, $200k+ in debt but a solid salary when I'm 35-40. It'll probably work out in my favor financially, but who knows. Thankfully I'm not doing it for the money.

 

[tennerd]

I'm in the same boat as you. I'll be a bit younger but still would have grossed nearly $1M with little debt if I went BSN/MSN or BBA/MBA and made ~$80-125k/yr. So it's the difference between having a house and ~$200k+ in retirement savings vs. no money, no real assets, $200k+ in debt but a solid salary when I'm 35-40. It'll probably work out in my favor financially, but who knows. Thankfully I'm not doing it for the money.

i think it's overly optimistic to expect nurses to get 80-125k pa unless they are very senior or in a management position that blows ass to work with. A LOT of nurses get stuck at like 60k and never progress further, but we don't see it because for some reason we keepnoticing the nurses that manage to move up. with a MD/DO, it is widely expected to basically start at very high 100k low 200k and even higher for certain specialties/locations.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

i think it's overly optimistic to expect nurses to get 80-125k pa unless they are very senior or in a management position that blows ass to work with. A LOT of nurses get stuck at like 60k and never progress further, but we don't see it because for some reason we keepnoticing the nurses that manage to move up. with a MD/DO, it is widely expected to basically start at very high 100k low 200k and even higher for certain specialties/locations.

A RN/BSN will usually not, but that's why I said MSN. Most APRNs are between $80-125k as far as I know.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

I'm in the same boat as you. I'll be a bit younger but still would have grossed nearly $1M with little debt if I went BSN/MSN or BBA/MBA and made ~$80-125k/yr. So it's the difference between having a house and ~$200k+ in retirement savings vs. no money, no real assets, $200k+ in debt but a solid salary when I'm 35-40. It'll probably work out in my favor financially, but who knows. Thankfully I'm not doing it for the money.

Exactly! If I were looking for money, I definitely wouldn't go into medicine. I have buddies that are 25 years old pulling in six figure salaries doing sales. They already have retirement and savings, I won't starting on that till I'm at least 36. I that puts me over ten years behind them. Luckily we will get pretty solid job security!

 

[Ho0v-man]

The problem is I'll finish residency when I'm nearly forty years old, I don't want to be spending my forties and fifties living off 50k a year because of all my debt. I don't mind living dirt poor for another 10 years, but eventually I'd like to put away money for retirement and buy a house, that may not be possible with half a million bucks of student loans, even with 200k a year salary.

Sounds like I'm even older than you. Plenty of folks just live off of what most of the people here consider chump change their whole lives and live pretty comfortably when they retire. We will all do a lot better than that so I think we can all just relax


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[deleted719840]

NSU IS tuition is 47k and OOS tuition is 53k now

 

[allantois]

NSU IS tuition is 47k and OOS tuition is 53k now

I think schools like NSU learned from their respective dental schools that they can get away with charging anything they want.

 

[68PGunner]

I just want to say something. The public loan forgiveness system will be there for all professions. However, the proposed cap at $55k will be applied to prevent the doctor loophole.

 

[68PGunner]

It's solely because every school still gets ridiculous amounts of applicants despite how high they raise their tuition. Even if the tuition rises to 100k/year, there will be plenty of applicants to do/pay anything to become a physician.

You're wrong.

 

[medhopeful82]

I keep seeing "the big 5" DO schools in this thread... Which 5 schools does that pertain to?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I keep seeing "the big 5" DO schools in this thread... Which 5 schools does that pertain to?

Depends on who you ask. I think people are referring to PCOM, DMU, CCOM KCU and LUCOM... (Just want to see if anyone would catch that ..)In reality I know people hate this and won't ever admit it but a DO is a DO when it comes to the ACGME match. The "big 5" only really get you a somewhat regional name recognition. For examples residencies in the northeast will know the name PCOM. KCU has had strong surgical (Gsurg and NSG) matches at Kansas U because of this most likely. But if you are trying to match out of the region of that school no one cares. The med school in my state doesn't give a flying rats butt if your a graduate from PCOM or LECOM or ATSU-SOMA. To them you are a DO. Admittedly they are notoriously DO hostile. They're a little pompous about it too, although that is completely unrelated to this topic

 

[Rekt]

You're wrong.

What an entirely compelling response, thank you.

 

[Mad Jack]

SCHOOL Resident Tuition Non-Resident Tuition Average graduate indebtedness (Graduating Class)
UNTHSC/TCOM $13,078 $28,766 $139,337 (2014)
LECOM-PA $31,030 $31,030 $158,153 (2014)
LECOM-Brad. $29,480 $31,610 $163,080 (2014)
WCU-COM $39,800 $39,800 N/A
LUCOM $40,000 $40,000 N/A
UP-KYCOM $40,120 $40,120 $162,300 (2014)
CUSOM $40,600 $40,600 N/A
KCU-COM $42,450 $42,450 $254,000 (2013)
VCOM-Auburn $42,500 $42,500 N/A
VCOM-CC $42,500 $42,500 N/A
VCOM-VC $42,500 $42,500 $173,644 (2014)
ACOM $42,580 $42,580 N/A
OU-HCOM $30,530 $43,540 $186,857 (2014)
DMU-COM $44,042 $44,042 $218,227 (2014)
LMU-DCOM $44,140 $44,140 $234,974 (2014)
OSU-COM $22,835 $44,966 $185,484 (2014)
PCOM $45,036 $45,036 $181,968 (2014)
GA-PCOM $45,036 $45,036 $174,198 (2014)
TouroCOM-NY $45,850 $45,850 $209,529 (2014)
MU-COM $46,305 $46,305 N/A
BCOM $46,650 $46,650 N/A
ATSU-KCOM $48,124 $48,124 $268,800 (2013)
ATSU-SOMA $48,136 $48,136 $300,099 (2013)
RVUCOM $48,378 $48,378 $222,974 (2014)
TUCOM-CA $48,510 $48,510 N/A
PNWU-COM $49,000 $49,000 $253,963 (2014)
NSU-COM $44,945 $49,235 $224,685 (2014)
WVSOM $20,450 $50,200 $242,742 (2013)
TUNCOM $50,450 $50,450 $266,000 (2013)
UNECOM $51,660 $51,660 $233,000 (2014)
WesternU/COMP $52,215 $52,215 $258,919 (2014)
NYIT-COM $52,430 $52,430 $180,000 (2013)
AZCOM/MWU $58,030 $58,030 $288,190 (2014)
RowanSOM $36,360 $58,340 $173,281 (2014)
CCOM/MWU $59,826 $59,826 $270,816 (2014)
MSUCOM $41,724 $83,718 $202,022 (2013)

This is the tuition, and average graduate indebtedness of every DO school listed in the CIB. I sorted them by out of state tuition cost. I am just amazed! Going to LECOM could save you $80,000 compared to going to other schools like AZCOM! Is the education between these schools really that different? Is it really worth an extra $80,000.

Why is there such a disparity in tuition prices? Are some of these schools just getting über rich of medical students? I don't understand how there can be such a great discrepancy.

Another point I noticed was the outrageous debt of graduates in 2013 and 2014. Those numbers are not even representative of what medical students who are starting med school now will have. As tuition rises the debt will rise as well.

I'm not going into medicine for money so this isn't turning me away from continuing down this path, but it is definitely making me rethink if family practice is a reasonable option... you could be tied down to your debt the rest of your life. A specialist who makes $100,000 more a year just sounds more practical with that much debt.

You should keep in mind that average student debt is a poor indicator of aid available, as many students attend with their costs completely covered by their parents, and some schools have strong relationships with undergraduate institutions that led to their students having high levels of undergraduate debt added onto their total debt at graduation. I'd pay attention to their total CoA and multiply it by four to keep things simple, as, if you do not have help paying for your education, you will be very unlikely to receive any. DO schools tend to have fairly poor grant and scholarship programs overall (as do many MD medical schools, for that matter).

 

[Mad Jack]

What an entirely compelling response, thank you.

While they would still receive plenty of apps at 100k a year, guaranteed, the biggest problem is that the federal government does not place a cap on PLUS loans, thus allowing students to infinitely increase their borrowing.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

You should keep in mind that average student debt is a poor indicator of aid available, as many students attend with their costs completely covered by their parents, and some schools have strong relationships with undergraduate institutions that led to their students having high levels of undergraduate debt added onto their total debt at graduation. I'd pay attention to their total CoA and multiply it by four to keep things simple, as, if you do not have help paying for your education, you will be very unlikely to receive any. DO schools tend to have fairly poor grant and scholarship programs overall (as do many MD medical schools, for that matter).

This must explain why ATSU-SOMA has a $300,000 average indebtedness with $48,000 a year tuition, whereas NYIT-COM has $52,000 a year tuition, but only $180,000 average indebtedness. Do you think this is really due to parents paying for their kids education? Or do you think schools like NYIT-COM offer more scholarship and aid than a school like ATSU-SOMA?

 

[Mad Jack]

This must explain why ATSU-SOMA has a $300,000 average indebtedness with $48,000 a year tuition, whereas NYIT-COM has $52,000 a year tuition, but only $180,000 average indebtedness. Do you think this is really due to parents paying for their kids education? Or do you think schools like NYIT-COM offer more scholarship and aid than a school like ATSU-SOMA?

It's mostly parental money or government scholarships at every school I know of. I'll elaborate more later.

 

[Mad Jack]

Alright, to further elaborate- those who go to more expensive schools are much more likely to do so if they know they can on someone else's dime. We've got a few people in my school that have chosen to pursue scholarships that they otherwise would not have (military, primary care) and that admit they absolutely would not have attended if their parents were not paying their tuition. On the other hand, there's a lot of people that choose schools like LECOM precisely because they know they'll be attending on loans and can't afford a more expensive school. Ultimately, you end up with more self paying students at lower cost schools for this reason, elevating their average debt burden.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

Alright, to further elaborate- those who go to more expensive schools are much more likely to do so if they know they can on someone else's dime. We've got a few people in my school that have chosen to pursue scholarships that they otherwise would not have (military, primary care) and that admit they absolutely would not have attended if their parents were not paying their tuition. On the other hand, there's a lot of people that choose schools like LECOM precisely because they know they'll be attending on loans and can't afford a more expensive school. Ultimately, you end up with more self paying students at lower cost schools for this reason, elevating their average debt burden.

What are governmental scholarships? Can I plan on any aid as a med student, even $5,000? Or do the pell grants and other scholarships end when med school starts?

 

[Mad Jack]

What are governmental scholarships? Can I plan on any aid as a med student, even $5,000? Or do the pell grants and other scholarships end when med school starts?

I got zero dollars of aid, aside from loans. Pell grants are not available to graduate students. As far as the government scholarships, there are the following (I only included one HPSP branch, as each one is the same):
https://nhsc.hrsa.gov/scholarships/
https://services.aamc.org/fed_loan_...1&CFTOKEN=1E95991B-9490-1AC2-3D5FC1A4090C5B0B
http://www.goarmy.com/amedd/education/hpsp.html

 

[68PGunner]

What an entirely compelling response, thank you.

Your scenario might be plausible 15-20 years from now, assuming the annual rate of inflation being 1.5-2.0%. However, in today's environment, your comment is ridiculous. I will break down the calculation for you:

Assuming the tuition being 100k, living expense being 20k, and the rate of interest being 6.0%, your debt after medical school graduation is 556K. That means that your interest payment alone is 33K annually during residency. With the wage for residency being 50k, you will probably get back 40K if you manage your taxes and deductions well. That means that you only have 7K annually for living expense in order to maintain your debt at the current level. The reality is that it's not going to happen. Therefore, we can safely assume that your debt will balloon to 700-800K by the time you're done with your residency.

After residency, let's say that you manage to get a 190K gig. With taxes and deduction, your net would be 145K. With interest and principal payment, you're left with about 73-80K. You're delaying your income earning time by 8 years just so you can earn 73-80K for 30 years. In today's environment, there are many ways to get 73-80K jobs with less debt and less time commitment. In your scenario, the number of applications to medical schools would decline substantially.

The reason why medical school applications continue to go up despite the rising tuition is that there are many government subsidy programs allowing students to shave off debt by 300-500K. It's not my problem is that you're ignorant in these government subsidies. Once PSLF is capped at 55-60K, applications to medical school will more sensitive to rising tuition. 500K-1.0 mil in debt isn't an issue if you're going to have that amount forgiven after 2-3 years of working for the government. How is that possible? It's going to go like this: 5 years of general surgery, 3 years of fellowship, and 2 years of VA hospital.

With loan forgiveness being capped at 55-60K, your scenario is unrealistic and aptly deserve my original answer.

 

[68PGunner]

I will also say that the magic debt amount right now is 300-350K. Any average over 500K will affect the number of medical school applications. How do I get that number? It goes like this:

240K forgiven if you join the Army Reserve for a 6 year commitment
50K forgiven if you work at a VA hospital for a few years
50K forgiven that's offered in your VA benefits

When you look at in the grand scheme of things, 250-300K debt is nothing if you're not a prima donna in term of locations and are willing to work for the government for a few years.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

I will also say that the magic debt amount right now is 300-350K. Any average over 500K will affect the number of medical school applications. How do I get that number? It goes like this:

240K forgiven if you join the Army Reserve for a 6 year commitment
50K forgiven if you work at a VA hospital for a few years
50K forgiven that's offered in your VA benefits

When you look at in the grand scheme of things, 250-300K debt is nothing if you're not a prima donna in term of locations and are willing to work for the government for a few years.

These options are relatively unknown to pre-meds like me. I haven't heard of them, and whose to say they will still be available in 8-10 years when I finish residency? I just feel sketched out relying on some program to pay off my debts....

 

[68PGunner]

These options are relatively unknown to pre-meds like me. I haven't heard of them, and whose to say they will still be available in 8-10 years when I finish residency? I just feel sketched out relying on some program to pay off my debts....

The Army Reserve option will always be available. PSLF at 55K cap will be available for a while. People won't whine about doctors getting 300-600K forgiven when the cap is set at 55K. I personally believe that doctors should be allowed for the same benefit if they take government jobs that are originally hard to fill. Some form of debt forgiveness will always be available for prestigious jobs. About ten years ago, people who majored in BSN have their entire undergrad tuition paid for. Personally, I graduate from a very good private school with a free ride. The projected debt amount doesn't matter if there are subsidy programs . Right now, with a combined number of subsidy programs, you can have up to 350K forgiven.

 

[allantois]

The Army Reserve option will always be available. PSLF at 55K cap will be available for a while. People won't whine about doctors getting 300-600K forgiven when the cap is set at 55K. I personally believe that doctors should be allowed for the same benefit if they take government jobs that are originally hard to fill. Some form of debt forgiveness will always be available for prestigious jobs. About ten years ago, people who majored in BSN have their entire undergrad tuition paid for. Personally, I graduate from a very good private school with a free ride. The projected debt amount doesn't matter if there are subsidy programs . Right now, with a combined number of subsidy programs, you can have up to 350K forgiven.

The army reserve option will not always be available if the government cuts the military industrial complex. Also, taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for anyone who decides to take on so much debt, and truthfully at the end of the day that person will still be better off than most people in the country.

You also think that people are applying to medicine for rational financial purposes, while in fact many do so because they glorify the profession. You only need to look at dental schools, many of which have long exceeded 400k CoA mark, to realize that there is no lack of applicants to those schools. And don't think that those schools really care about how you will go about paying off your debt.

So while 100k tuition may not happen soon, many med schools are well on their way to 100k total yearly costs, and will surely get there in a few years. Keeping loan forgiveness options in place will only accelerate the trend.

 

[FBurnaby]

Lets be real, most students can't (nor necessarily should) get big tickets like military and NHSC, and won't have parents pay it either. (Most) Practicing doctors haven't dealt with this level of debt of undergrad+med+unsubsidized interest so it's hard to say what will happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if 400k is the new average.

 

[QueenJames]

How does ATSU have the highest amount of debt after 4 years when it doesn't have the most expensive tuition? I believe that number depends on the CHC system right? IF you choose somewhere expensive to live like NY, Chicago, and/or Seattle.. sure I can see that rent and cost of living could play a huge role. But If you choose a place near Arizona or the rural location in Cali they offer or those 2-3 years, I am sure that your experience in terms of money due will vary. Any thoughts?

I mean we are talking more than ATLEAST $1500 bucks/month difference in terms of rent when you compare say, Visalia, to the Bronx.

 

[allantois]

How does ATSU have the highest amount of debt after 4 years when it doesn't have the most expensive tuition? I believe that number depends on the CHC system right? IF you choose somewhere expensive to live like NY, Chicago, and/or Seattle.. sure I can see that rent and cost of living could play a huge role. But If you choose a place near Arizona or the rural location in Cali they offer or those 2-3 years, I am sure that your experience in terms of money due will vary. Any thoughts?

I mean we are talking more than ATLEAST $1500 bucks/month difference in terms of rent when you compare say, Visalia, to the Bronx.

Average indebtedness is a very poor metric to look at as it doesn't tell you anything about what your costs are going to be. Students who are not receiving any financial support (from parents or otherwise) may self select to go to a cheaper school and rely purely on loans to pay for it, while students who do receive that support may not care as much about the cost of their school.

 

[Buck Winters]

Fact is it is all an opinion. So let's move on. What is it with America and always wanting to RANK things.

i blame buzzfeed

 

[68PGunner]

The army reserve option will not always be available if the government cuts the military industrial complex. Also, taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for anyone who decides to take on so much debt, and truthfully at the end of the day that person will still be better off than most people in the country.

You also think that people are applying to medicine for rational financial purposes, while in fact many do so because they glorify the profession. You only need to look at dental schools, many of which have long exceeded 400k CoA mark, to realize that there is no lack of applicants to those schools. And don't think that those schools really care about how you will go about paying off your debt.

So while 100k tuition may not happen soon, many med schools are well on their way to 100k total yearly costs, and will surely get there in a few years. Keeping loan forgiveness options in place will only accelerate the trend.

1st Question: Are you a military member or connected to the military in any way? If not, you have no credibility when it comes to military spending.
2nd Question: How do you know that medical applicants apply to medical schools because they glorify the profession? Dental schools are exceeding the 400k CoA mark because there are still loan forgiveness programs out there.
3rd Question: How are you so sure that med school tuition and feeds will soon exceed 100k on an annual basis?

Finally, it doesn't matter what you think about the finance and deficits on this country. As far as I am concern, it's just paper money that's being counted for political reasons. I won't try to get into this debate with you over this matter because it's pointless to preach radical concepts to medical schools in bubbles without any work experience in other fields.

 

[allantois]

1st Question: Are you a military member or connected to the military in any way? If not, you have no credibility when it comes to military spending.
2nd Question: How do you know that medical applicants apply to medical schools because they glorify the profession? Dental schools are exceeding the 400k CoA mark because there are still loan forgiveness programs out there.
3rd Question: How are you so sure that med school tuition and feeds will soon exceed 100k on an annual basis?

Finally, it doesn't matter what you think about the finance and deficits on this country. As far as I am concern, it's just paper money that's being counted for political reasons. I won't try to get into this debate with you over this matter because it's pointless to preach radical concepts to medical schools in bubbles without any work experience in other fields.

Loan forgiveness programs do not and have never applied to dentists.
Western U CoA is already 80k (90 for 3rd year) while NSU increased their tuition by 7% this year.

 

[68PGunner]

loan forgiveness programs do not and have never applied to dentists.
Anyway, keep living in your imaginary world

http://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Educ...s/dental-student-loan-repayment-resource.ashx

You're welcome.

 

[Rekt]

Your scenario might be plausible 15-20 years from now, assuming the annual rate of inflation being 1.5-2.0%. However, in today's environment, your comment is ridiculous. I will break down the calculation for you:

Assuming the tuition being 100k, living expense being 20k, and the rate of interest being 6.0%, your debt after medical school graduation is 556K. That means that your interest payment alone is 33K annually during residency. With the wage for residency being 50k, you will probably get back 40K if you manage your taxes and deductions well. That means that you only have 7K annually for living expense in order to maintain your debt at the current level. The reality is that it's not going to happen. Therefore, we can safely assume that your debt will balloon to 700-800K by the time you're done with your residency.

After residency, let's say that you manage to get a 190K gig. With taxes and deduction, your net would be 145K. With interest and principal payment, you're left with about 73-80K. You're delaying your income earning time by 8 years just so you can earn 73-80K for 30 years. In today's environment, there are many ways to get 73-80K jobs with less debt and less time commitment. In your scenario, the number of applications to medical schools would decline substantially.

The reason why medical school applications continue to go up despite the rising tuition is that there are many government subsidy programs allowing students to shave off debt by 300-500K. It's not my problem is that you're ignorant in these government subsidies. Once PSLF is capped at 55-60K, applications to medical school will more sensitive to rising tuition. 500K-1.0 mil in debt isn't an issue if you're going to have that amount forgiven after 2-3 years of working for the government. How is that possible? It's going to go like this: 5 years of general surgery, 3 years of fellowship, and 2 years of VA hospital.

With loan forgiveness being capped at 55-60K, your scenario is unrealistic and aptly deserve my original answer.

Trust me, I know the calculations. I said nothing about the students actually paying the loans off or "living it up". I would still guarantee that every seat would be filled at every school if tuition was 100k. And if any physician takes a job at <190K pre-tax, you're doing our entire profession a disservice.

 

[NBLogical]

@68PGunner Can you explain this "cap"? My understanding of it is that once you apply for PSLF after the 120 qualified payments, your forgiveness amount is only $57.5k. Thus with a debt of 300k even after making 120 payments, the debt would now be 300-57.5k = 242.5k. This amount is now added to your yearly income as taxable income, hence known as the "tax bomb". That taxable amount is then required upfront.
I'm confused as to how one can get 350k forgiven with the cap unless you are talking about the tax bomb as well.
Insight please!

 

[68PGunner]

@68PGunner Can you explain this "cap"? My understanding of it is that once you apply for PSLF after the 120 qualified payments, your forgiveness amount is only $57.5k. Thus with a debt of 300k even after making 120 payments, the debt would now be 300-57.5k = 242.5k. This amount is now added to your yearly income as taxable income, hence known as the "tax bomb". That taxable amount is then required upfront.
I'm confused as to how one can get 350k forgiven with the cap unless you are talking about the tax bomb as well.
Insight please!

See my post about using a combination of options through the VA, Army Reserve, and your state programs.

 

[allantois]

@68PGunner Can you explain this "cap"? My understanding of it is that once you apply for PSLF after the 120 qualified payments, your forgiveness amount is only $57.5k. Thus with a debt of 300k even after making 120 payments, the debt would now be 300-57.5k = 242.5k. This amount is now added to your yearly income as taxable income, hence known as the "tax bomb". That taxable amount is then required upfront.
I'm confused as to how one can get 350k forgiven with the cap unless you are talking about the tax bomb as well.
Insight please!

PSLF has not been capped ...yet (and neither has anyone's loans been forgiven yet). But you get tax bombed with IBR after 25 years of making payments, not PSLF.