DO Schools and Low MCAT Scores

[medcraziness]

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[DrBowtie]

The applicant pool isn't deep enough for every school to have all 30+ scores. Plain and simple.

 

[BMW19]

I doubt residencies are looking at MCAT scores. That is like saying med schools look at SAT scores which they do not. Residencies care about two scores Step I and Step II.

BMW-

I've been reading about some of the students' low MCAT scores that get accepted to osteopathic medical schools. Now this post isn't intended to offend any that got a low score around a 24 or below, but come on. Every answer you need for the MCAT is in the Kaplan books.

But my question is this: Why do osteopathic schools accept people that can't get higher MCAT scores? Why don't osteopathic schools raise the bar and prove that we're as academically geared and ready as any allopathic school? It only hurts the osteopathic profession and its credibility to continue accepting low scores. Now granted, the MCAT score is not a way to truly determine how great a physician you'll be, but I would dare say it influences the residency programs that look at students from particular schools.

 

[Animus]

It is also funny it affects the Osteopathic profession. I wonder how often doctors ask eachother what their MCAT score was....then proceed to judge eachother....

 

[Buckeye4life]

Many osteopathic matriculants are older, non-traditional students, often choosing medicine as a second career. Many of them have not taken the science prerequisites for many years and either study on their own or take a quick review course. It's a huge advantage to have taken the actual classes, taken a review course, or studied with the material fresh with very few outside distractions like a full time job and/or family before taking the test. While some non trad students do manage to do very well, the statistics show that the younger you are, the better people tend to do on the MCAT.

 

[JustPlainBill]

Yeah, the MCAT is a great predictor of performance.....

Some people w/30s don't make it and others with 23s are
2nd in their class and do competitive residencies like ortho
or whatever. Others who are barred from entering med school
get into a post-bacc program, smoke it, get top honors in
anatomy, graduate and go into pathology residencies....

People from private universities in pre-med programs take
the MCAT, score 21s and get admitted anyway --- go figure....

I know of someone who took the MCAT and scored around a
27 and didn't even get a call from a local power med school.
Then took a Kaplan course, and scored a 31 and immediately got
a call for an interview. I guess their intelligence and ability
increased enough during the six weeks of Kaplan to score
an interview, que no?

 

[Punchap]

Yeah, the MCAT is a great predictor of performance.....

Some people w/30s don't make it and others with 23s are
2nd in their class and do competitive residencies like ortho
or whatever. Others who are barred from entering med school
get into a post-bacc program, smoke it, get top honors in
anatomy, graduate and go into pathology residencies....

People from private universities in pre-med programs take
the MCAT, score 21s and get admitted anyway --- go figure....

I know of someone who took the MCAT and scored around a
27 and didn't even get a call from a local power med school.
Then took a Kaplan course, and scored a 31 and immediately got
a call for an interview. I guess their intelligence and ability
increased enough during the six weeks of Kaplan to score
an interview, que no?

Agreed. I like the way you think.

 

[DaveinDallas]

Remember that the MCAT is one predictor. I know of people
who scored in the mid-30s and only got 1 interview and
eventually gave up.

I was working nights while studying for the MCAT, working
2 (sometimes 3) jobs while taking prereqs, plus being daddy
and husband. I did well enough to get an interview at
my first choice of school. I'm making it - not at the top
of the class, for sure - but making it.

When I took the MCAT, I hadn't had the second year
of bio prereqs. After taking them, I was throwing out some
of my old Kaplan practice tests. I looked at the questions
I missed, answered them off the top of my head, compared
against the scoring chart they give out and increased my
scores by 2 to 3 overall points. So what? My objective
was to get into a specific osteopathic school and I
achieved that (by the grace of God).....

I had a lower MCAT score - does that make me a dummy?
Not hardly - I was in that generation of engineers that
developed the hardware and software that eventually
became the medium on which we are corresponding
(in spite of what Al Gore says).

Don't be too hard on people who score low - you just might
find a friend who's determined to succeed. Often in life
it's the Mark 1, Mod 0 non-quitter grunts who make it
through, rather than the gazelles who breeze through,
who will help you when you desperately need it......

 

[medcraziness]

I appreciate all of the insight you guys have written. I was hoping to hear some things that I hadn't heard before, especially from non-traditional med students and older guys who are now in med school. I worked with an ER doc who had to have been in his early 40's and was still bragging about his MCAT score. He was a real idiot and extremely condescending...go figure. He really lacked self-esteem.

It doesn't matter what you score on the dumb MCAT. I only scored a 26 and I'm in the top 10% of my class now.

 

[Kappy1]

Osteopathic schools goal is to get its students to pass the COMLEX I and COMLEX II. A study done at NYCOM concluded that the most accurate predictor of the COMLEX score was undergraduate GPA. Therefore they can accept students with high GPA's and lower MCAT scores. The USMLE on the other hand has the MCAT as the major predicter of the score and that is why MD schools hold it as the gold standard.

 

[Lamont]

i scored really low on my mcat, and i got into medical school. thats the only and last time the mcat will ever matter in my life. doctors dont really care what each other scored, mostly pre-meds and med students (if even that, boards are slightly more important). if you scored a 43 and are incompetent...you are incompetent. if you scored a 21 and are a fantastic doc, well you are a fantastic doc. simple as that, moving on.

 

[SomeDoc]

I worked with an ER doc who had to have been in his early 40's and was still bragging about his MCAT score. He was a real idiot and extremely condescending...go figure. He really lacked self-esteem.

Wow...

 

[MavsFan08]

I've been reading about some of the students' low MCAT scores that get accepted to osteopathic medical schools. Now this post isn't intended to offend any that got a low score around a 24 or below, but come on. Every answer you need for the MCAT is in the Kaplan books.

But my question is this: Why do osteopathic schools accept people that can't get higher MCAT scores? Why don't osteopathic schools raise the bar and prove that we're as academically geared and ready as any allopathic school? It only hurts the osteopathic profession and its credibility to continue accepting low scores. Now granted, the MCAT score is not a way to truly determine how great a physician you'll be, but I would dare say it influences the residency programs that look at students from particular schools.

1. MCAT scores are actually not proven to correlate with performance in medical school. This is true because there is just about ZERO organic chemistry, inorganic chemistry, and physics in medical school.

2. You could memorize the Kaplan review books and do well with biological sciences. If you aren't great at math however, you are screwed with the physical sciences section. Fortunately, you will do just about ZERO math in medical school.

 

[MavsFan08]

The applicant pool isn't deep enough for every school to have all 30+ scores. Plain and simple.

"People with those scores typically sacrifice interpersonal skills for book smarts..."

(this is what I've heard from people......as an excuse maybe)

it's not something I made up though

 

[medcraziness]

3. Residency programs don't care about MCAT scores, board scores, or what school you went to. All they care about is what kind of personality you have, how you get along with the residents, and what your interest is in their program and that specialty.[/quote]

Getting good board scores is at least a prerequisite to having your file opened by top residencies. No doubt about it.

 

[DaveinDallas]

I appreciate all of the insight you guys have written. I was hoping to hear some things that I hadn't heard before, especially from non-traditional med students and older guys who are now in med school. It doesn't matter what you score on the dumb MCAT. I only scored a 26 and I'm in the top 10% of my class now.

So what do you want to know?

 

[werd]

3. Residency programs don't care about MCAT scores, board scores, or what school you went to. All they care about is what kind of personality you have, how you get along with the residents, and what your interest is in their program and that specialty.

Getting good board scores is at least a prerequisite to having your file opened by top residencies. No doubt about it.[/QUOTE]

tangential to the original post, but this article comments on misconceptions that med students have about what's important to residency directors... http://www.med-ed-online.org/pdf/res00138.pdf. moreover, i once saw an article which said that mcat scores correlate positively with usmle scores, but the correlation is less than for gpa.

i think the function of the mcat is to measure one's ability to learn and then reason from a large volume of information (not necessarily medical information); different schools may value that or accept the mcat's validity in different ways. i'm not going to make any sort of judgement, but i think the OP is at least correct in noting that mcat averages are a source of slack for DO schools.

 

[MavsFan08]

3. Residency programs don't care about MCAT scores, board scores, or what school you went to. All they care about is what kind of personality you have, how you get along with the residents, and what your interest is in their program and that specialty.

Getting good board scores is at least a prerequisite to having your file opened by top residencies. No doubt about it.[/quote]

It depends on the specialty and is less likely for DO residencies.

 

[KeyLime]

People with those scores typically sacrifice interpersonal skills for book smarts...These people often lack teachability.

Interpersonal skills and books smarts are not mutually exclusive.

 

[MavsFan08]

Interpersonal skills and books smarts are not mutually exclusive.

Maybe not, but they are inversely proportional in the extremes....

 

[Vizsla]

Maybe not, but they are inversely proportional in the extremes....

we would all like to think that..but again, its not always the case. ive met several braniacs who are also social butterflies..you just have to give it to them that theyre gifted

 

[Noeljan]

People with those scores typically sacrifice interpersonal skills for book smarts...These people often lack teachability.

What are you talking about? That is not true, and just made up to make people without high scores feel like they have something over people with high scores. I am not putting down anyone with low scores, why should people with low scores be allowed to say such things?

 

[JasonUD]

I've been reading about some of the students' low MCAT scores that get accepted to osteopathic medical schools. Now this post isn't intended to offend any that got a low score around a 24 or below, but come on. Every answer you need for the MCAT is in the Kaplan books.

But my question is this: Why do osteopathic schools accept people that can't get higher MCAT scores? Why don't osteopathic schools raise the bar and prove that we're as academically geared and ready as any allopathic school? It only hurts the osteopathic profession and its credibility to continue accepting low scores. Now granted, the MCAT score is not a way to truly determine how great a physician you'll be, but I would dare say it influences the residency programs that look at students from particular schools.

I got a 1250 on my SAT and did well enough in college to graduate a year early and get into medical school. One of my friends got a 1580 on his SATs and he dropped out of college after a year. The MCAT is one exam, some people don't take it as seriously as they should and score poorly on it, but still have everything else going for them. Once you prove yourself as a good physician it doesn't matter if you have an MD or a DO, just like it won't matter what you got on your MCAT, similarly as it doesn't matter now what I got on my SAT in high school. If someone doesn't belong in medical school they wont make it through, we lost 10% of our first year class at NYCOM already.

 

[Noeljan]

I got a 1250 on my SAT and did well enough in college to graduate a year early and get into medical school. One of my friends got a 1580 on his SATs and he dropped out of college after a year. The MCAT is one exam, some people don't take it as seriously as they should and score poorly on it, but still have everything else going for them. Once you prove yourself as a good physician it doesn't matter if you have an MD or a DO, just like it won't matter what you got on your MCAT, similarly as it doesn't matter now what I got on my SAT in high school. If someone doesn't belong in medical school they wont make it through, we lost 10% of our first year class at NYCOM already.

Hey did you guys start already?
oops nevermind, I viewed your class (2010) after signing in When do NYCOM 1st years start?

 

[JasonUD]

Hey did you guys start already?
oops nevermind, I viewed your class (2010) after signing in When do NYCOM 1st years start?

First years have Orientation on August 20th and Class on August 21st. Seconds years start August 13th.

 

[gilbertjgreen]

I just began to write a huge response to the original reply, but then I realized that the best answer was simply. . . don't worry about it.

 

[gilbertjgreen]

Here's an even better response. . .
to quote Mr. Mark Twain, "I've never let my schooling get in the way of my education."

 

[pguin]

The applicant pool isn't deep enough for every school to have all 30+ scores. Plain and simple.

This is actually the only response out of all of these that correctly answers the question. I'm not sure why everyone else had long convoluted answers about the lack of importance of the MCAT. The MCAT is a very important deciding factor for all schools but theres only x amount of applicant. Like it or not, the higher GPA/MCAT students usually don't even apply to any osteopathic schools. The rest of the students will apply to both but those who get accepted to both more often pick the allopathic school. This leaves the lowest scoring applicants in the osteopathic schools more often.

This in no way means that the education is less in the osteopathic schools or that the students won't make great doctors, but this is the only true reason for the difference.

 

[jbone]

I've been reading about some of the students' low MCAT scores that get accepted to osteopathic medical schools. Now this post isn't intended to offend any that got a low score around a 24 or below, but come on. Every answer you need for the MCAT is in the Kaplan books.

But my question is this: Why do osteopathic schools accept people that can't get higher MCAT scores? Why don't osteopathic schools raise the bar and prove that we're as academically geared and ready as any allopathic school? It only hurts the osteopathic profession and its credibility to continue accepting low scores. Now granted, the MCAT score is not a way to truly determine how great a physician you'll be, but I would dare say it influences the residency programs that look at students from particular schools.

Blanket statement. Not all Osteopathic schools accept students with a low MCAT score. There are many DO schools whose average MCAT was around the 26-28 range. Pretty similar to the upper-middle to lower tier MD schools. DMU's class of 2011 average was around 27. Not the best score but a pretty damn good average for a class of 215 non-the-less. Having participated in many of the student interviews for this incoming class, I can also state that the MCAT is a very small portion in our decision making process.

 

[UIC Killa]

Blanket statement. Not all Osteopathic schools accept students with a low MCAT score. There are many DO schools whose average MCAT was around the 26-28 range. Pretty similar to the upper-middle to lower tier MD schools. DMU's class of 2011 average was around 27. Not the best score but a pretty damn good average for a class of 215 non-the-less. Having participated in many of the student interviews for this incoming class, I can also state that the MCAT is a very small portion in our decision making process.

Straight from the source...does this not answer the original question, if you pass the first screen and then secondaries, mcats becoming almost of no value...anyway...i am pretty excited about DMU...hopefully our class can live up to your high expectations J-bone..

 

[pguin]

Straight from the source...does this not answer the original question, if you pass the first screen and then secondaries, mcats becoming almost of no value...anyway...i am pretty excited about DMU...hopefully our class can live up to your high expectations J-bone..

I will say that I got have a high MCAT with a low GPA (33/3.47) and got accepted to all the osteopathic schools I applied to except DMU. It seems probable that they put less emphasis on the MCAT than most other schools. Also my verbal sparring match with my interviewer probably didnt help matters very much!

 

[AmyO]

I appreciate all of the insight you guys have written. I was hoping to hear some things that I hadn't heard before, especially from non-traditional med students and older guys who are now in med school. I worked with an ER doc who had to have been in his early 40's and was still bragging about his MCAT score. He was a real idiot and extremely condescending...go figure. He really lacked self-esteem.

It doesn't matter what you score on the dumb MCAT. I only scored a 26 and I'm in the top 10% of my class now.

I don't understand why you would post such a thread when the osteopathic education is giving you the opportunity to become a physician. According to your own post about asking why osteopathic schools "lower their standards" in regards to accepting lower MCAT scores, you should not have been accepted on the basis of your MCAT score. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. You're in the top 10% of your class, so obviously your MCAT score has not affected your studies, so I don't know why you even asked the question in the first place. In addition, one glance at the Step I boards scores forum will show you a good amount of individuals with excellent board scores (230+) and subpar MCAT scores.

 

[MaximusD]

People with those scores typically sacrifice interpersonal skills for book smarts...These people often lack teachability.

at you.

 

[medcraziness]

I don't understand why you would post such a thread when the osteopathic education is giving you the opportunity to become a physician. According to your own post about asking why osteopathic schools "lower their standards" in regards to accepting lower MCAT scores, you should not have been accepted on the basis of your MCAT score. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. You're in the top 10% of your class, so obviously your MCAT score has not affected your studies, so I don't know why you even asked the question in the first place. In addition, one glance at the Step I boards scores forum will show you a good amount of individuals with excellent board scores (230+) and subpar MCAT scores.

Why would I ask this question? To see what other DO's thought about whether or not that score affects the schools' reputations. Apparently it does not. There are many great responses that I've learned a lot from. I'm happy to be at an osteopathic school.

I guess even when you try not to offend someone, it seems that certain someone will get immediately defensive.

 

[pguin]

People with those scores typically sacrifice interpersonal skills for book smarts...These people often lack teachability.

2. You could memorize the Kaplan review books and do well with biological sciences. If you aren't great at math however, you are screwed with the physical sciences section. Fortunately, you will do just about ZERO math in medical school.

The top statement is probably one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard. Is it your proposal that people with good MCAT scores are actually less qualified to get through medical school?


With the second quote - if you can memorize all of the biological sciences section of the Kaplan than you can probably do the same for the physical sciences also. Also, realistically how much math is there even in the physical sciences section? All I remember is some very basic algebraic equations for physics problems. If you cant solve these basic equation than you definitely should not be in medical school - you just may struggle to figure out how many cc's are in a ml (yes i know its a trick question kinda)

 

[GreenShirt]

Here's a better question: How did the OP apply to DO school, get accepted, attend for a year and not know the answer to his question? That fascinates me.

 

[AmyO]

Why would I ask this question? To see what other DO's thought about whether or not that score affects the schools' reputations. Apparently it does not. There are many great responses that I've learned a lot from. I'm happy to be at an osteopathic school.

I guess even when you try not to offend someone, it seems that certain someone will get immediately defensive.

I'm not offended and I don't feel that I am getting defensive either, I am just challenging your logic...plus I just don't get your point. First, you ask why DO schools "lower their standards" and accept low MCAT scores and then you follow-up with a response that basically states that MCAT scores don't matter anyways b/c you have a semi-low MCAT score and you are in the top 10% of your class and that you were hoping to hear something different than what you have heard before. Your posts just seem pointless and contradictory that's all Usually people who get accepted to DO schools with ok MCAT scores don't complain about how DO schools are lowering their standards by accepting people with subpar MCAT scores....that just doesn't make sense

 

[AmyO]

Here's a better question: How did the OP apply to DO school, get accepted, attend for a year and not know the answer to his question? That fascinates me.

Agreed

 

[arsenewenger]

This thread is pointless.

 

[Founder]

Hm, I don't know why my reply didn't show... whatever.

I do know people who have gotten in with lower than a 24 MCAT but they had a good GPA, strong extracurriculars, good LORs, etc.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

So does anybody else think MavsFan's been here before with a different name?

 

[MavsFan08]

Hey, didn't mean to start an argument or anything. I was just offering what I've heard from some people.

 

[Dr JPH]

1. MCAT scores are actually not proven to correlate with performance in medical school. This is true because there is just about ZERO organic chemistry, inorganic chemistry, and physics in medical school.

Partially true.

2. You could memorize the Kaplan review books and do well with biological sciences. If you aren't great at math however, you are screwed with the physical sciences section. Fortunately, you will do just about ZERO math in medical school.

Not really true.

3. Residency programs don't care about MCAT scores, board scores, or what school you went to. All they care about is what kind of personality you have, how you get along with the residents, and what your interest is in their program and that specialty.

Not true at all.

 

[scpod]

So does anybody else think MavsFan's been here before with a different name?

You are only stating the obvious. I wondered how long he would stay away before returning in disguise.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

You are only stating the obvious. I wondered how long he would stay away before returning in disguise.

Yeah, I guess 5000+ posters don't disappear forever once banned. Aren't you mod people supposed to do something about that?

 

[Dr JPH]

Aren't you mod people supposed to do something about that?

Mods support wacky causes like the DO_for_Change movement. You think they are going to take a stand against trolls?

 

[medhacker]

messed up!

 

[MaximusD]

Mods support wacky causes like the DO_for_Change movement. You think they are going to take a stand against trolls?

Just what we need... more people focused on the wrong things.

Don't we already have a government that is hell-bent on that?

 

[RockfordWF]

I doubt residencies are looking at MCAT scores. That is like saying med schools look at SAT scores which they do not. Residencies care about two scores Step I and Step II.

BMW-

I agree with you about MCAT, but not Step.

Look in First Aid for Step II. It lists the percentages of the different aspects of a residency application. Step I is pretty high on the list, but Step II is way down there.

I expect this is true because you can be accepted into residency without Step II and so they cannot fairly compare applicants.