Doctors with felonies

[NeuroMap]

I've been a frequent visitor here at SDN and have read over many inspiring as well as downright negative responses to threads where the individual has a criminal history. So I am curious to see what the community would think my chances are of getting into medical school. Even more so, what are my chances of getting into a hospital for rotations and then residency?

My background is a troubled family with mother taking siblings away, father turning to alcohol, and me trying to figure this all out and then turning to drugs. I have 2 cases settled each with 2 felonies. The first case at 18-years-old was possession of stolen property and vehicle. The second case was taking a vehicle without consent and evading. This second one was at 20 years old.

I decided to make a change finally. Got help and went to school. I majored in Bio with a neuroscience concentration. It took me 7 years to graduate because I had to work and pay for it. I graduated with a 3.92 from the Honors College at my university with Highest Honors for research in neuroscience and magna cum laude. I was part of 2 honor societies while in college. To pay for school I started off working 2 jobs as a server and cook. I moved on to become a certified nurse assistant at a hospice. I was then promoted to manage a team of CNAs and then to an operational manager after where I opened a new home hospice location. My final promotion, and current position, was to a corporate IT position as a systems administrator. So basically I have worked in healthcare in direct and non direct patients care for nearly 8 years.

My mcat is solid (in the 80s%), GPA is good, research background, healthcare paid experience, and some local volunteer experience. It has been 10 years since my conviction. I was in state prison for 7 months.

Do you think I would be suitable as a doctor? Why? Why not? Do you think I could be accepted? Do you think I SHOULD be accepted? Why? Why not?

Just gauging your thoughts. Regardless of the answers the outcome is already determined.

Thanks all.

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[Heyyy1234]

I'm not to sure. My Dad is a Gynecologist (OBGYN) and I'm currently in school to chase my dreams, of being a surgeon myself. I got in trouble with the the law, about a year ago for felony theft, but so far have never done any time. I turned my life completely around and I would also like to know the answer to this question as well. I do know that Hospitals run back ground checks and stuff like that, before hiring you on as an attendaning. But all in all good question.

 

[NeuroMap]

Hey there,

I wanted to send you a note and let you know some of the things I've learned from medical school admission reps. I've been fortunate enough to have had conversation with a dean and a director of admission at two different schools. Both gave me hope when I told them about my predicament. The upside here is you have a non-violent and non-sexual charge. What I was told was that they would apply a "whole person concept" in reviewing my application. With regard to criminal history they would look at the nature of the charges were, was it an isolated incident, the circumstances of life at that time, how long it has been since then, and what you have done with your life since then.

You may also want to look up a doctor named Michael Maddaus. There was a PBS review done on resiliency and he was one of the subjects of that report. He had a difficult life early on and was a frequent flyer in the judicial system. Now he is a surgeon and professor. I actually reached out to him a couple years ago and, although it took about a month and a half to get a response, he had some very wise and motivating words that he shared with me.

I don't know what state you live in or how old you were when this happened. Some state medical boards let you run pre-eligibility. I know TX does. As with any med school numbers will play a role so your academic performance and MCAT score will play a big role.

That's my two cents anyway.


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[fhockey13]

I just read your OP again and missed a bunch of the details the first time I posted it so I'll edit what I wrote and make it brief. Get an employment lawyer consultation or someone who deals with professional licensing (bc state license obtainment is probably the most stringent regarding this stuff and it would suck to do med school/residency and then not be able to get a license and work). See if you can get it expunged and if you can't try to get it sealed. I have no idea about sealing but I'm pretty sure if something is expunged it doesn't show on background checks and you're not legally required to answer yes on applications when they ask of any prior convictions (I have no idea about if ethically you're required to or something). Also the friend of mine who was in this situation had a one time DUI that never required any jail time so everything above may not apply. If you've already been cleared for jobs in healthcare requiring direct patient contact I'd say thats a somewhat reassuring sign but thats just my opinion so again talk to a lawyer. In regards to legalities no one on SDN is going to have anything more meaningful to contribute than an actual lawyer who knows the details of your situation.

 

[Goro]

I've been a frequent visitor here at SDN and have read over many inspiring as well as downright negative responses to threads where the individual has a criminal history. So I am curious to see what the community would think my chances are of getting into medical school. Even more so, what are my chances of getting into a hospital for rotations and then residency?

My background is a troubled family with mother taking siblings away, father turning to alcohol, and me trying to figure this all out and then turning to drugs. I have 2 cases settled each with 2 felonies. The first case at 18-years-old was possession of stolen property and vehicle. The second case was taking a vehicle without consent and evading. This second one was at 20 years old.

I decided to make a change finally. Got help and went to school. I majored in Bio with a neuroscience concentration. It took me 7 years to graduate because I had to work and pay for it. I graduated with a 3.92 from the Honors College at my university with Highest Honors for research in neuroscience and magna cum laude. I was part of 2 honor societies while in college. To pay for school I started off working 2 jobs as a server and cook. I moved on to become a certified nurse assistant at a hospice. I was then promoted to manage a team of CNAs and then to an operational manager after where I opened a new home hospice location. My final promotion, and current position, was to a corporate IT position as a systems administrator. So basically I have worked in healthcare in direct and non direct patients care for nearly 8 years.

My mcat is solid (in the 80s%), GPA is good, research background, healthcare paid experience, and some local volunteer experience. It has been 10 years since my conviction. I was in state prison for 7 months.

Do you think I would be suitable as a doctor? Why? Why not? Do you think I could be accepted? Do you think I SHOULD be accepted? Why? Why not?

Just gauging your thoughts. Regardless of the answers the outcome is already determined.

Thanks all.

There are people on Adcoms who believe in redemption. Should you be accepted??? That's 100% on you. All we can do is estimate the likelihood of your getting IIs. One of the walls you will hit is the mindset of "We have so many qualified applicants who never did stuff like this! Why take a risk on this guy?"

It seems like you have led an exemplary life since your transgressions, and you own them........so far so good. The rest is up to your packet.

IF you don't apply, your rejection rate will be 100%.

 

[NeuroMap]

Sealing and expungement is not an option in my case because I went to prison. But I do have a plan in case I get declined. My only option is a governor's pardon, which is pretty difficult to get. The charges were from California and they offer a certificate of rehabilitation. This cert is basically an official declaration that any criminal intent/behavior I may have had is no longer a part of who I am. To get this cert one must live in the state for 5 years. It also automatically puts in an application for a governor's pardon. I have an attorney in California right now working on petitioning 2 of my felonies to be reduced to misdemeanors. Assuming I don't get in anywhere this year it is most likely cause of my history. I plan to move back to California, go back to school to keep myself busy and continue learning. My current position at my company has me working at home so it would not be difficult to transfer states. I plan to live in Cali for the 5 years necessary to get the certificate and apply for a governor's pardon. In that time I know I can finish a master's and am doing some research to see if I can complete a PhD. I plan to reapply after that time as I'll have accomplished more and would have some formal remediation for my transgressions.


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[NeuroMap]

So far so good...I just got my first interview invite!


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[bears1992]

I'm in a similar case to yours. I had a felony from when I was a juvenile. What I've found from talking to two different attorneys is that your big hurdle is going to be getting into the VA hospital for rotations and getting licensed. I called the VA to see if I would get denied clearance and the HR guy I talked to said all they do is look at the charges and look at the time elapsed. He said the majority of charges are fine if it's been at least 3 years since. Mine was a weapons charge 7 years ago and he said it would be fine. I have not called my states licensing office yet but both of my attorneys said it's not a big deal. Most states just have laws against drug crimes, fraud, crimes against seniors, crimes against children and sex crimes. Any other crimes are up to the discretion of the licensing board and if they have no problem with my weapons charge from 7 years ago, I doubt they would have a problem with theft from 10 years ago. The only difference is mine was a single incident and you had two separate incidences.

There was a bill that was introduced last year that would make a felon ineligible to work at the VA but I'm not sure what happened with it. If a school knows about your criminal history and you are still getting interviews, it means those schools feel you have a low chance to get denied clearance to their rotation sites AND you won't have an issue getting licensed.

Good luck!

 

[bulbosity]

I've been a frequent visitor here at SDN and have read over many inspiring as well as downright negative responses to threads where the individual has a criminal history. So I am curious to see what the community would think my chances are of getting into medical school. Even more so, what are my chances of getting into a hospital for rotations and then residency?

My background is a troubled family with mother taking siblings away, father turning to alcohol, and me trying to figure this all out and then turning to drugs. I have 2 cases settled each with 2 felonies. The first case at 18-years-old was possession of stolen property and vehicle. The second case was taking a vehicle without consent and evading. This second one was at 20 years old.

I decided to make a change finally. Got help and went to school. I majored in Bio with a neuroscience concentration. It took me 7 years to graduate because I had to work and pay for it. I graduated with a 3.92 from the Honors College at my university with Highest Honors for research in neuroscience and magna cum laude. I was part of 2 honor societies while in college. To pay for school I started off working 2 jobs as a server and cook. I moved on to become a certified nurse assistant at a hospice. I was then promoted to manage a team of CNAs and then to an operational manager after where I opened a new home hospice location. My final promotion, and current position, was to a corporate IT position as a systems administrator. So basically I have worked in healthcare in direct and non direct patients care for nearly 8 years.

My mcat is solid (in the 80s%), GPA is good, research background, healthcare paid experience, and some local volunteer experience. It has been 10 years since my conviction. I was in state prison for 7 months.

Do you think I would be suitable as a doctor? Why? Why not? Do you think I could be accepted? Do you think I SHOULD be accepted? Why? Why not?

Just gauging your thoughts. Regardless of the answers the outcome is already determined.

Thanks all.

I think you have a very reasonable chance of getting in somewhere, because those criminal events occurred a while ago and in a formative period. If you're serious about applying, you should be upfront about your past, just as you are here. Life is all about redemption, and it's likely admissions people recognize that.

 

[Another Second Opinion]

I think it's definitely reasonable to give it a shot, just understand that at every step along the way; applying to residency, applying for jobs, obtaining credentials at the hospital after getting a job, applying for a state license, applying for a DEA number; these offenses will probably be scrutinized and if just one of these barriers are not crossed, it could be detrimental.

 

[steve-o-matic]

I think you've made a great case for reformation but I can't speak for medical school admission. From a practical aspect, I've seen providers maintain their license even with adverse action against them; usually rare and complex cases but I think it speaks to the willingness of the healthcare community to accept and move on. One good practice I've seen is to have a general letter explaining the circumstances of the convictions and your steps towards change ready. I say that because a conviction follows a doctor everywhere; most states recommend just seven years of criminal history but providers are usually held to a different level of scrutiny. Good luck!

 

[NeuroMap]

Just thought I would update this thread with an article. If you google “Shon Hopwood” there are several stories and even a 60 Minutes special on this guy. He went to prison for 11 years for bank robbery when he was in his early 20s. He got out, went to law school and is now an attorney and professor of law at Georgetown University School of Law. He also has a foundation that assists people who are in or have been to jail with criminal records obtain professional licensing. He recently argued for someone who was prevented from taking the bar exam and subsequently won the case. Just thought I’d throw this out there cause it gave me some optimism. Just an update on my app cycle for class entering in 2018, I’ve been rejected at most places BUT the only two schools that gave me interviews have put me on the waitlist. More to come, keep charging ahead all.


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[Walter Raleigh]

Well, if you can get them reduced to misdemeanors that might give you a chance; it would look still better if you could secure a governor's pardon.

 

[LiveNThePresent]

Just thought I would update this thread with an article. If you google “Shon Hopwood” there are several stories and even a 60 Minutes special on this guy. He went to prison for 11 years for bank robbery when he was in his early 20s. He got out, went to law school and is now an attorney and professor of law at Georgetown University School of Law. He also has a foundation that assists people who are in or have been to jail with criminal records obtain professional licensing. He recently argued for someone who was prevented from taking the bar exam and subsequently won the case. Just thought I’d throw this out there cause it gave me some optimism. Just an update on my app cycle for class entering in 2018, I’ve been rejected at most places BUT the only two schools that gave me interviews have put me on the waitlist. More to come, keep charging ahead all.



I’m so glad to know I’m not the only one fighting this battle! It is so stressful, so I sympathize with u 100%! I’m currently waiting on my MCAT scores to come back so I can start applying. What schools have u applied to so far ?

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Well, if those schools are interviewing and waitlisting you, they're at least not seeing your criminal history and rejecting you out of hand. Best of luck! I'd say that unless you can get your record expunged or secure a governor's pardon, the rest of your application has to be stellar.

 

[siliso]

I think in an ideal world you should have a shot if there is a long period of time and change between you now and the you who did those felonies. In the current world, you could have trouble getting licensed depending on the state board and its propensity to be forgiving. In my state the statute says felony “with bearing on suitability to practice” can be disqualifying, which has plenty of room for interpretation. Wish you the best in any case.

 

[NeuroMap]

Hey everyone, I just wanted to spread the good news and give hope for others in my same situation. I got a call this afternoon and have been offered a seat at a UT medical school. I just got the email with paperwork and it looks like I am going on a 4 year adventure soon.


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[DubbiDoctor]

Hey everyone, I just wanted to spread the good news and give hope for others in my same situation. I got a call this afternoon and have been offered a seat at a UT medical school. I just got the email with paperwork and it looks like I am going on a 4 year adventure soon.


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Did you get your felony expunged before applying? If not, did it come up in your interviews? How did you discuss it?

 

[NeuroMap]

I am not eligible for expungement because I went to state prison. In California that limits your options. I disclosed it and always brought it up interviews first. If my interviewer didn’t bring it up right out of the gate I sort of worked it in from the get go just to be able to get it out the way. For me it really was a learning experience and I believe it made me a better person for going through it. I discussed how it changed my outlook on life and to appreciate every opportunity and blessing I received. I was always asked if I knew how it would affect my ability to become a doctor and my response was always it depends on the state but majority of the states I looked into did not bar me from becoming licensed strictly from the kind of history I had. If I had a violent or drug related offense it might have been different because of the liability in caring for someone and having to prescribe medications. Having to discuss my history was definitely the worst part of the interview which is why I always brought it up at the beginning.


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[SpartanWolverine]

Hey everyone, I just wanted to spread the good news and give hope for others in my same situation. I got a call this afternoon and have been offered a seat at a UT medical school. I just got the email with paperwork and it looks like I am going on a 4 year adventure soon.


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Many congratulations. Thanks for the update. Good luck with school!

 

[NeuroMap]

Well, in an unfortunate turn of events the school has rescinded my acceptance today due to my criminal history. I don’t really know why because I disclosed it fully on my application and secondary as well as discussed it with both interviewers I had at the school. I’m trying to figure out my next step as it sounds there are some grave inaccuracies on the history that was described to me so I have requested a copy from the school as is my right in the state. I’ll pick up the pieces and push on forward and let God determine my steps.


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[Walter Raleigh]

Licensing issues, perhaps? You might look into a governor's pardon.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Well, in an unfortunate turn of events the school has rescinded my acceptance today due to my criminal history. I don’t really know why because I disclosed it fully on my application and secondary as well as discussed it with both interviewers I had at the school. I’m trying to figure out my next step as it sounds there are some grave inaccuracies on the history that was described to me so I have requested a copy from the school as is my right in the state. I’ll pick up the pieces and push on forward and let God determine my steps.


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I would speak with an attorney to get their input.

 

[shopsteward]

Your first step is to get full disclosure of the information on which the school based the recission of their offer: it sounds as though you have already requested this, so do follow up on this as necessary. If you are to get the decision reversed time will be of the essence, as the chances of getting it reversed will disappear when the class is filled with other students.

If there are factual errors then you need to be able to produce evidence of what the facts really are. A lawyer would be able to help you with that if you no longer have the original documentation yourself. The question then is: who do you present the true information to? It needs to be someone who has the power to change the decision to take back the offer, so you will probably need to research the organisational structures at the school and university to work out the best route. A lawyer who is familiar with the university institution and its procedures may be best placed to help you with that as well, as they can put a formal request to the right person in the right wording.

Another option might be to contact the person who interviewed you for advice, as they may be in a position to advocate for you. It might backfire, though, as the interviewer may themselves have been held to account for recommending you in the first place.

 

[WIMNFamilyMed]

Any possibility of asking them to defer you a year instead of fully rescinding so it can get settled? I doubt it, but it may be worth asking.

 

[NeuroMap]

Thank you all for the advice. I’ve contacted a few attorneys that deal with licensing in Texas. Most deal with physicians already licensed and have to go before the board for some charge. One, however, deals with medical students and the board and USMLE. I’m waiting on the official background report to be sent to me but from my co versatile with the director at the school it sounds like there is some incorrect information on there. I’ll post an update here when something changes.


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[NeuroMap]

Conversation*, not co versatile.


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[Pathblok]

Any updates? Its been nearly 2 months, Im eager to hear if youve had any breakthrough

 

[NeuroMap]

@Pathblok, sorry for the delayed response. At this time I’ve hired an attorney to represent me in seeking some answers from the school. Meanwhile the state of California has recently passed legislation that allows me to petition the courts to have 2 felonies dismissed/expunged; that is the silver lining. I am also moving back to California in a few weeks because my other charges do not qualify under the new law. If I live in California for 5 years I will be eligible for a Certificate of Rehabilitation, which would enhance my ability to earn a medical license from a state board. It is not a full proof plan, but it is something to work towards so that I can retake the mcat in 5 years and reapply. I’ll be 36 by then and my criminal history will be 17 years old. I plan to get a masters degree in the time waiting in something I am interested in: public health of business in hopes it will better prepare me in owning my own practice or running a hospital one day. With luck, California will expand the law to include my other 2 charges so that I can dismiss both of those as well. I don’t know if I mentioned this in a previous post but the reason why I decided to get an attorney was because I received an anonymous call from an employee at the medical school urging me to fight this and that there was some sort of underhandedness in my acceptance being rescinded to make room for someone else. Of course I don’t know if that is actually true or not at this point but it did give me some motivation to fight.


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[Walter Raleigh]

@Pathblok, sorry for the delayed response. At this time I’ve hired an attorney to represent me in seeking some answers from the school. Meanwhile the state of California has recently passed legislation that allows me to petition the courts to have 2 felonies dismissed/expunged; that is the silver lining. I am also moving back to California in a few weeks because my other charges do not qualify under the new law. If I live in California for 5 years I will be eligible for a Certificate of Rehabilitation, which would enhance my ability to earn a medical license from a state board. It is not a full proof plan, but it is something to work towards so that I can retake the mcat in 5 years and reapply. I’ll be 36 by then and my criminal history will be 17 years old. I plan to get a masters degree in the time waiting in something I am interested in: public health of business in hopes it will better prepare me in owning my own practice or running a hospital one day. With luck, California will expand the law to include my other 2 charges so that I can dismiss both of those as well. I don’t know if I mentioned this in a previous post but the reason why I decided to get an attorney was because I received an anonymous call from an employee at the medical school urging me to fight this and that there was some sort of underhandedness in my acceptance being rescinded to make room for someone else. Of course I don’t know if that is actually true or not at this point but it did give me some motivation to fight.

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Get an attorney; there may indeed be something fishy going on. There might not be - but it's worth a shot. Get those other two felonies expunged and get a certificate of rehabilitation - that is a good plan indeed. A California school might accept you with that certificate of rehabilitation - plus seventeen years out from those felonies, with an exemplary record from then till now. Best of luck.

 

[NeuroMap]

There has been a small breakthrough in my criminal history. I have petitioned the State of California to dismiss 2 of my felony charges under a new law they passed. The judge granted this petition and it should take about 90 days to reflect on my background.

As far as communication with the medical school that rescinded my acceptance there has been no change. My lawyer sent a letter to the school but at last check we have not received a response (this was 2 weeks ago).

In the meantime I’ve been struggling with the thought of “is this still worth it.” Mainly because of my age and how old I’ll be once the 5 years in California are up; I’ll be 36-37 by the time I can feel confident about reapplying with knowing I’ve done all I can to remedy my history. Most of me thinks it is still a worthwhile goal to reach for. It is the one profession I have always gone back to with interest (I tooled with the idea of being President or a priest when I was younger; in college I thought of a career in IT). Being a physician is the only thing that gets me excited and motivated so with respect to that I feel like the struggle is worth the reward.

Just updating everyone on the status of this situation.

 

[WoundupKnight]

Go for it man. There are people graduating med school in their 50s.
I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune, it sounds like you've done an amazing job turning your life around.

Have you looked into DO schools? They may be more lenient especially given your grades and the time that's passed.

 

[DokterMom]

Don't know how I managed to miss this thread the first time through...

First off, congratulations on turning your life around, and also on your recent legal victories. Small steps, taken continuously, can cover a lot of ground.

I'd like to suggest you revive the suggestion to ask that your original acceptance be reconsidered, kind of along the lines of a "deferral". I'd suggest that you reapply, call and write to some of the folks you spoke with who seemed to be in your corner, and update them on your recent legal victories, framing your side of the conversation in terms of understanding how your past legal situation (that has now been improved) may have complicated things, etc. I would definitely not go the route of 'something fishy' about your rescission even though it's certainly possible, because is certain to get contentious. Someone who's behaved unethically won't appreciate being called out on it by someone with a criminal history...

Moving to CA sounds appealing, but do realize that saying you plan to move to CA would significantly diminish your chances of an acceptance in TX, and CA med schools are notoriously difficult to get into.

tldr; Just saying basically that you've persevered so long and come so far. Please give TX one more chance to make it right.

Fingers crossed for you...

 

[NeuroMap]

Thank you all for your encouraging responses. I am considering DO programs as well as Caribbean MD schools. I am leaning on the side that I did not cast a large enough net when I applied last year. Despite that net being smaller I did receive 2 interviews so that let’s me know that some schools are willing to give me a shot. As far as moving to California, we are actually here already. The only piece of criteria I needed to receive a certificate of rehabilitation from the state was the stipulation that I must live in CA for 5 years immediately prior to requesting the certificate. It is sort of an unfortunate bullet point to receive the cert. I’ll keep updating this thread as things progress to not only gain y’alls insight but to also provide information to other potential medical students who are experiencing this same scenario. This process has often felt like a lonely journey at times, one with limited information out there to assist one’s navigation of the system.

Again I just wanted to thank you all for your continued participation on this thread.


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[Walter Raleigh]

Eh...Caribbean MD schools are notoriously dicey; you run the very real risk of being unable to secure a residency. It's a huge risk. American DO schools are a much better bet than Caribbean MD schools, if you actually want to practice medicine.