DOs Residency Merger with ACGME

[Gandyy]

Technically yes; practically not as much

I can already imagine some of the practical problems of doing so, but what are some of the ones you think are pertinent?

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[asdf123g]

Why does everyone detest the comlex (rather than usmle) so much?

 

[jw3600]

Why does everyone detest the comlex (rather than usmle) so much?

Because it has completely made up things like cranial and chapmans points on it.

 

[asdf123g]

Because it has completely made up things like cranial and chapmans points on it.

would you and other people be satisfied if a few of the more "bs" things were removed?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I can already imagine some of the practical problems of doing so, but what are some of the ones you think are pertinent?

There are barriers on all sides.

The further out you are, the less attractive you are to fellowships. Some of them just don't want to do anything "outside the box" and have plenty of good fresh grads who are applying to their programs. Some of them are heavily academic/research focused so someone who has just been out working clinically won't be an attractive applicant. Some others worry about your ability to play nice in the sandbox (i.e. If you've been an independent attending for the past 5-10 years will you adapt well to the role of a trainee again?)

The further out you are, the less attractive fellowships are to you. It means uprooting your life, forgoing your earning potential for several years, and takes you out of your clinical comfort zone.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

would you and other people be satisfied if a few of the more "bs" things were removed?

In a system that standardizes the USMLE as the main board exams and requires Osteopathic graduates who wish to match into good residencies to take essentially redundant licensing exams at costs to us, it is not unusually to want the entire and complete removal of COMLEX.

That being said COMLEX will not be removed because 1. COCA/AOA make too much money off of it and 2. some amount of DO students who would have graduated would be essentially dismissed ( I can honestly say that at schools where COMLEX First Time Pass rates are at 80-85 almost half the class would likely struggle with the USMLE).​

 

[Seth Joo]

In a system that standardizes the USMLE as the main board exams and requires Osteopathic graduates who wish to match into good residencies to take essentially redundant licensing exams at costs to us, it is not unusually to want the entire and complete removal of COMLEX.

That being said COMLEX will not be removed because 1. COCA/AOA make too much money off of it and 2. some amount of DO students who would have graduated would be essentially dismissed ( I can honestly say that at schools where COMLEX First Time Pass rates are at 80-85 almost half the class would likely struggle with the USMLE).​

I believe that since this merger has taken place and there will be a single application system to all medical schools both MD and DO by 2020, eventually all DO schools will become MD schools in another 10-20 years. DO schools will become MD schools with a focus on community health care.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I believe that since this merger has taken place and there will be a single application system to all medical schools both MD and DO by 2020, eventually all DO schools will become MD schools in another 10-20 years. DO schools will become MD schools with a focus on community health care.

Idk if your timeline is all that accurate, but I think inevitably this will occur.

 

[Seth Joo]

Idk if your timeline is all that accurate, but I think inevitably this will occur.

When the older baby boomer administrators at many schools retire and the Gen X and Y begin to take over I can see this happening.

 

[Gandyy]

I believe that since this merger has taken place and there will be a single application system to all medical schools both MD and DO by 2020, eventually all DO schools will become MD schools in another 10-20 years. DO schools will become MD schools with a focus on community health care.

If this happens and the application service is unified under AMCAS, then it will be just as hard to get into former DO schools as it is MD schools now. At that point, there will be no more DO school "backups" and everyone will need a stellar application with little to no red flags to become a doctor in the United States. At which point there will be so many more schools opened up that medical school may become closer to the state of Law Schools right now if residencys are not expanded through federal funding.

Yikes!

 

[Seth Joo]

If this happens and the application service is unified under AMCAS, then it will be just as hard to get into former DO schools as it is MD schools now. At that point, there will be no more DO school "backups" and everyone will need a stellar application with little to no red flags to become a doctor in the United States. At which point there will be so many more schools opened up that medical school may become closer to the state of Law Schools right now if residencys are not expanded through federal funding.

Yikes!

Well right now its only an "if", it might not happen.

 

[68PGunner]

If this happens and the application service is unified under AMCAS, then it will be just as hard to get into former DO schools as it is MD schools now. At that point, there will be no more DO school "backups" and everyone will need a stellar application with little to no red flags to become a doctor in the United States. At which point there will be so many more schools opened up that medical school may become closer to the state of Law Schools right now if residencys are not expanded through federal funding.

Yikes!

That won't be our problem, as we're already accepted to medical schools.

 

[68PGunner]

I believe that since this merger has taken place and there will be a single application system to all medical schools both MD and DO by 2020, eventually all DO schools will become MD schools in another 10-20 years. DO schools will become MD schools with a focus on community health care.

It's going to be like dentistry soon. DO/MD will be the same as DMD/DDS.

 

[Seth Joo]

It's going to be like dentistry soon. DO/MD will be the same as DMD/DDS.

I disagree, curriculum differences between MD and DO programs are much wider than DDS and DMD, between the latter there is no difference, the only difference is the title of the degree. Some top Dental schools grant their graduates DMD and others grant them DDS. The top medical schools all grant their graduates MD, you will not see the top medical schools grant DO degrees.

Columbia's Dental program grants a DDS degree while Harvard's is a DMD. I do not see Harvard granting an MD while Columbia will grant a DO degree in the future, both will always grant the MD.

Most DO schools list in their charters that they exist to create primary care physicians, they do not get NIH funding, they usually do not produce much research like MD schools.

It was the ACGME that forced the merger upon the AOA, not the AOA pitching a merger idea with the ACGME, that is why so many AOA residency programs are closing down. The more I read about this merger the more I realize that its not benefiting DOs as much as most would believe. The MD people are fine with us serving as community based primary care physicians while their graduates become specialists and researchers. Of course there will still be DO specialists but I think that path will become more difficult, not easier.

 

[Dharma]

Slippery slopes... sliding along...

 

[Dharma]

Idk if your timeline is all that accurate, but I think inevitably this will occur.

Agree. It will happen to some degree eventually. But we'll be reaching the end of our careers at that point and will likely not care, especially if engaging in a career with true intrinsic rewards.

NOT that all of this matters that much. Concern yourselves with becoming solid clinicians who will help people and leave some kind of positive lasting impact on the world that surrounds you.

Tangential thought: Worrying about prestige, titles, and becoming a b!tch to arguments like these where you spend precious (and irreplaceable) time that could be much better spent elsewhere (on both a personal and collective level) mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. Remember that. Don't waste your time (i.e. life) worrying about this bs ... clock's ticking... go DO something.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I disagree, curriculum differences between MD and DO programs are much wider than DDS and DMD, between the latter there is no difference, the only difference is the title of the degree. Some top Dental schools grant their graduates DMD and others grant them DDS. The top medical schools all grant their graduates MD, you will not see the top medical schools grant DO degrees.

Columbia's Dental program grants a DDS degree while Harvard's is a DMD. I do not see Harvard granting an MD while Columbia will grant a DO degree in the future, both will always grant the MD.

Most DO schools list in their charters that they exist to create primary care physicians, they do not get NIH funding, they usually do not produce much research like MD schools.

It was the ACGME that forced the merger upon the AOA, not the AOA pitching a merger idea with the ACGME, that is why so many AOA residency programs are closing down. The more I read about this merger the more I realize that its not benefiting DOs as much as most would believe. The MD people are fine with us serving as community based primary care physicians while their graduates become specialists and researchers. Of course there will still be DO specialists but I think that path will become more difficult, not easier.

Seth, you have to remember that a lot of DO graduates want to be primary care physicians too. I think certainly it won't make things easier for those who want to specialize, but honestly, complaining about the lost prospects of literally 80-100 surgery minded ppl when over 4000 graduates? end up with ACGME credentials in FM, IM, Peds, etc and have relatively decent options for low to medium sub-specializations ( Sure GI & Cardio probably aren't happening, but honestly again most DO grads don't want to spend another 2-3 years doing a fellowship) is a good thing. And again, the pathway to research and academic medicine certainly isn't closed to DOs entirely, but again is a minor interest in the DO graduate body, I feel like in my class of 270, only about 5 ppl really are considering it and very few actually want it as their primary medicine interest exception being say Altercated.

The reality is that on SDN we really blow up this crap about DOs ending up in PC as a void of broken dreams as well as overstate the important of getting into the most top tier program or hell this arbitrary notion of midtier programs ( If a University affiliated hospital or even a community program takes DOs and has the in-house fellowships you desire and takes mostly from their residents then what's the issue?)

All I'm saying is that the sky certainly isn't falling and that the transition of DO schools to community oriented MD programs that mainly produce PC graduates isn't a big deal or problem nor do the schools need to be research powerhouses to accomplish that goal. Sure, we need to build up many programs more and yes research should be added, but we've got a pathway that honestly will appeal to most DO graduates anyway.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Agree. It will happen to some degree eventually. But we'll be reaching the end of our careers at that point and will likely not care, especially if engaging in a career with true intrinsic rewards.

NOT that all of this matters that much. Concern yourselves with becoming solid clinicians who will help people and leave some kind of positive lasting impact on the world that surrounds you.

Tangential thought: Worrying about prestige, titles, and becoming a b!tch to arguments like these where you spend precious (and irreplaceable) time that could be much better spent elsewhere (on both a personal and collective level) mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. Remember that. Don't waste your time (i.e. life) worrying about this bs ... clock's ticking... go DO something.

SDN honestly has a lot of good things and a lot of bad things. Coming here for a realistic sense of what the average graduate of an MD or DO school has in terms of practice and subspecialization and or prestige isn't going to end well. Honestly I spent entirely too much time buying into this notion that primary care is this black hole that a DO never chooses willfully and instead ends up there always as a last choice and that the ideal physician is one that goes to the best hospital they can period after graduation as opposed to in an area they want to live or around family.

 

[Seth Joo]

Seth, you have to remember that a lot of DO graduates want to be primary care physicians too. I think certainly it won't make things easier for those who want to specialize, but honestly, complaining about the lost prospects of literally 80-100 surgery minded ppl when over 4000 graduates? end up with ACGME credentials in FM, IM, Peds, etc and have relatively decent options for low to medium sub-specializations ( Sure GI & Cardio probably aren't happening, but honestly again most DO grads don't want to spend another 2-3 years doing a fellowship) is a good thing. And again, the pathway to research and academic medicine certainly isn't closed to DOs entirely, but again is a minor interest in the DO graduate body, I feel like in my class of 270, only about 5 ppl really are considering it and very few actually want it as their primary medicine interest exception being say Altercated.

The reality is that on SDN we really blow up this crap about DOs ending up in PC as a void of broken dreams as well as overstate the important of getting into the most top tier program or hell this arbitrary notion of midtier programs ( If a University affiliated hospital or even a community program takes DOs and has the in-house fellowships you desire and takes mostly from their residents then what's the issue?)

All I'm saying is that the sky certainly isn't falling and that the transition of DO schools to community oriented MD programs that mainly produce PC graduates isn't a big deal or problem nor do the schools need to be research powerhouses to accomplish that goal. Sure, we need to build up many programs more and yes research should be added, but we've got a pathway that honestly will appeal to most DO graduates anyway.

What I was stating was that MD does not equal DO because of the merger, its not like DDS/DMD at all. The merger happened mostly because the ACGME pressured the AOA into it, not because the AOA skillfully lobbied the AOA into merging with the two, that being said the terms of the merger are not exactly favorable when you have a good number of AOA residency programs closing their doors. Many of these programs gave DOs a chance to become specialists and now that door is closing.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

What I was stating was that MD does not equal DO because of the merger, its not like DDS/DMD at all. The merger happened mostly because the ACGME pressured the AOA into it, not because the AOA skillfully lobbied the AOA into merging with the two, that being said the terms of the merger are not exactly favorable when you have a good number of AOA residency programs closing their doors. Many of these programs gave DOs a chance to become specialists and now that door is closing.

We also have many DO based GME in specialties opening.

And we're honestly talking about a timeline for the eventual merger of everything under a single body tbh.

 

[68PGunner]

I disagree, curriculum differences between MD and DO programs are much wider than DDS and DMD, between the latter there is no difference, the only difference is the title of the degree. Some top Dental schools grant their graduates DMD and others grant them DDS. The top medical schools all grant their graduates MD, you will not see the top medical schools grant DO degrees.

Columbia's Dental program grants a DDS degree while Harvard's is a DMD. I do not see Harvard granting an MD while Columbia will grant a DO degree in the future, both will always grant the MD.

Most DO schools list in their charters that they exist to create primary care physicians, they do not get NIH funding, they usually do not produce much research like MD schools.

It was the ACGME that forced the merger upon the AOA, not the AOA pitching a merger idea with the ACGME, that is why so many AOA residency programs are closing down. The more I read about this merger the more I realize that its not benefiting DOs as much as most would believe. The MD people are fine with us serving as community based primary care physicians while their graduates become specialists and researchers. Of course there will still be DO specialists but I think that path will become more difficult, not easier.

I'm going to disagree here. The merger happens because the amount of quality DO physicians are becoming more numerous. Therefore, ACGME forces the merger in order to maintain and control the quality of care coming from DO schools and AOA residencies. This idea of DOs becoming just PCP and MDs becoming specialists is false. That's like saying that all Ivy League graduates are guaranteed six figure salaries. Considering your background and mine, we both know that it's not true.

What does it mean? In my opinion, the DO education is going to be standardized to an acceptable level with accordance to ACGME standards. Most older DO schools already meet this bar. However, with standardized clinical rotations across all DOs, PDs will be less biased towards DOs, and instead judge the candidates based on merits alone. What does it mean for DOs? It means getting into a solid DO with legitimate third year rotations, and focuses on becoming the best physician for your patients. As long as you're not gunning for ortho or derm, a DO graduate will probably match into one of his/her top three specialties.

 

[68PGunner]

What I was stating was that MD does not equal DO because of the merger, its not like DDS/DMD at all. The merger happened mostly because the ACGME pressured the AOA into it, not because the AOA skillfully lobbied the AOA into merging with the two, that being said the terms of the merger are not exactly favorable when you have a good number of AOA residency programs closing their doors. Many of these programs gave DOs a chance to become specialists and now that door is closing.

Obviously, there is a difference between Harvard MDs and some low tier MDs. However, it's preposterous when people on SDN make all MDs to be Harvards. When I mean the field of medicine to become more like DDS/DMD, I mean that the distinction between average/low tier MDs to be not so black and white relative to DOs.

 

[68PGunner]

What I was stating was that MD does not equal DO because of the merger, its not like DDS/DMD at all. The merger happened mostly because the ACGME pressured the AOA into it, not because the AOA skillfully lobbied the AOA into merging with the two, that being said the terms of the merger are not exactly favorable when you have a good number of AOA residency programs closing their doors. Many of these programs gave DOs a chance to become specialists and now that door is closing.

This is what I mean by ACGME standardizing the quality of care coming from different residencies. It will trickle down to DOs at some point. So, what does it mean? If you're a quality candidate as a DO, your options will obviously expand bc more doors will be opened for you. However, if you can't meet the cut for a surgery residency, it means that you either are poorly prepared by your school in term of clinical education or you're not suitable for the specialty.

 

[235009]

Obviously, there is a difference between Harvard MDs and some low tier MDs. However, it's preposterous when people on SDN make all MDs to be Harvards. When I mean the field of medicine to become more like DDS/DMD, I mean that the distinction between average/low tier MDs to be not so black and white relative to DOs.

I see why you'd like to think that but if you look at outcomes the "average/low tier MD" schools place students in much better residency program across the board compared to even the best DO schools. Hands down. The match list at DO schools is most comparable to SGU. The advantage you get by going DO over SGU is less attrition (though still quite high at some schools) and access to exclusive residency spots. The latter is going away with the "merger" and you might see attrition rates rise as school expansion brings in less qualified applicants and the lack of protected residency spots makes it harder to achieve that 95% placement rate that COCA requires without blocking those students who will not match from graduating.


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[68PGunner]

I see why you'd like to think that but if you look at outcomes the "average/low tier MD" schools place students in much better residency program across the board compared to even the best DO schools. Hands down. The match list at DO schools is most comparable to SGU. The advantage you get by going DO over SGU is less attrition (though still quite high at some schools) and access to exclusive residency spots. The latter is going away with the "merger" and you might see attrition rates rise as school expansion brings in less qualified applicants and the lack of protected residency spots makes it harder to achieve that 95% placement rate that COCA requires without blocking those students who will not match from graduating.


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I guess Caribbean schools disguised as DOs are going to be closed down then. I won't lose any sleep over it. I'm not going to debate this issue further. However, I'm just going to work hard and hope that things will work for the best. At the end of the day, I will still become a physician making at least 200k a year.

 

[asdf123g]

Why dont DO schools receive NIH funding/funding for research?

 

[68PGunner]

I see why you'd like to think that but if you look at outcomes the "average/low tier MD" schools place students in much better residency program across the board compared to even the best DO schools. Hands down. The match list at DO schools is most comparable to SGU. The advantage you get by going DO over SGU is less attrition (though still quite high at some schools) and access to exclusive residency spots. The latter is going away with the "merger" and you might see attrition rates rise as school expansion brings in less qualified applicants and the lack of protected residency spots makes it harder to achieve that 95% placement rate that COCA requires without blocking those students who will not match from graduating.
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I'm just going to say this. But, even at MDs, a good portion of the students go to primary care.

 

[68PGunner]

Why dont DO schools receive NIH funding/funding for research?

Research wasn't a focus before. However, older DOs are catching up to the research landscape.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I'm just going to say this. But, even at MDs, a good portion of the students go to primary care.

He's referring to the quality level of the programs including primary care.

 

[68PGunner]

He's referring to the quality level of the programs including primary care.

So why is everyone acting like the world is ending? 60-70% of every posters on this forum will end up in primary care. Instead of acting like privileged children, you should be fortunate enough to have the opportunity to practice medicine in the US. The opportunity to go into a sub-specialty field isn't closed. That's all you can ask. In most cases, DO students are already handpicked by adcom to more likely be PCPs.

 

[68PGunner]

He's referring to the quality level of the programs including primary care.

BC PCP from Mayo or some other low tier programs is still going to make a PCP salary. Personally, I don't care that much about the different tiers of programs as long as it's not the toilet bowl for rejects.

 

[IslandStyle808]

BC PCP from Mayo or some other low tier programs is still going to make a PCP salary. Personally, I don't care that much about the different tiers of programs as long as it's not the toilet bowl for rejects.

Right, but some want to pursue academic medicine and/or fellowships. It is easier to pursue these opportunities from a university program. DOs are matching into them, but currently there is so much competition that it will only get tougher to match into these places. It will take time for this flux to stop and DOs to start breaking barriers. However, current students will suffer in the mean time.

From another post MeatTornado has made, it seems like university programs have more incentive to train students versus community programs. So I would feel safer trying to match into a university program. The specialty I like is PM&R and it is one of the few that is actually DO friendly (even more so than internal med or pediatrics). However, this choice may change if I do enter medical school. In the end, I want to train in as high quality of a place as possible (it doesn't have to be top tier).

 

[Dr.Smexy]

I'm just going to say this. But, even at MDs, a good portion of the students go to primary care.

Not really. Many MD schools love to say that this X percentage of their grads are going to primary care...the truth is that they are not giving you the whole picture. A large percentage of those guys will going into fellowships afterward and subspecialize into several fields. Don't be defensive about the cold fact of the DO disadvantage. It's certainly nothing to be embarassed about. I actually admire and applaud many DO schools for staying true to their mission which is to produce primary care physicians. They do this much better than most MD schools and actually being honest about their intention unlike many MD schools which for whatever reasons can't say outright that they love to produce specialist and researchers (actually just as important as the goal to produce primary care physicians IMHO) DO grads who enter osteopathic schools with the true intention to becoming primary care physicians have my utmost respect but for those guy who use DO schools as a the backup into medicine thinking they'll become the next big name plastic surgeon or dermatologist at top 10 institutions are the guys that I'm less enthusiastic about...

 

[Mjolner]

The further I get along in this process the more I find myself agreeing with @MeatTornado.

The merger is going to sting some for current DO students (while some PDs stay loyal to their DO roots) and a LOT for the ones graduating in like 2025-2035 (when more MDs start applying for PD jobs held by former DOs).
Hopefully, this process will bring DO clinical training closer to MD clinical training, so those graduating in 2040 will see a more balanced playing field. Assuming the LCME doesn't pull the same move that they ACGME did and then it won't matter.

DO training isn't as far from MD training as MDs think it is, but it sure as heck isn't as close to MD training as DO students like to think.

The best thing this merger brings is confidence that employers will have hiring DO graduates knowing that they all completed ACGME training.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I see why you'd like to think that but if you look at outcomes the "average/low tier MD" schools place students in much better residency program across the board compared to even the best DO schools. Hands down. The match list at DO schools is most comparable to SGU. The advantage you get by going DO over SGU is less attrition (though still quite high at some schools) and access to exclusive residency spots. The latter is going away with the "merger" and you might see attrition rates rise as school expansion brings in less qualified applicants and the lack of protected residency spots makes it harder to achieve that 95% placement rate that COCA requires without blocking those students who will not match from graduating.


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You should honestly follow up your comment with at least the understanding that match lists at DO schools are getting better even beyond the 2-4 matchs in Derm/ Rad Onc/ Plastics that schools obtain. The caliber of residencies and matching to established programs is improving in many schools and there is familiarity with the graduates of DO students at programs in their states/ local.

Likewise it's worth mentioning that newer DO GME programs are still being founded and still keeping the door to specialization for DOs open.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Not really. Many MD schools love to say that this X percentage of their grads are going to primary care...the truth is that they are not giving you the whole picture. A large percentage of those guys will going into fellowships afterward and subspecialize into several fields. Don't be defensive about the cold fact about DO disadvantage. It's certainly nothing to be embarassed about. I actually admire and applaud many DO schools for staying true to their mission which is to produce primary care physicians. They do this much better than most MD schools and actually being honest about their intention unlike many MD schools which for whatever reasons can't say outright that they love to produce specialist and researchers (actually just as important as the goal to produce primary care physicians IMHO) DO grads who enter osteopathic schools with the true intention to becoming primary care physicians have my utmost respect but for those guy who use DO schools as a the backup into medicine thinking they'll become the next big name plastic surgeon or dermatologist at top 10 institutions are the guys that I'm less enthusiastic about...

I still don't understand where people got this idea that the majority or even a sizable minority of IM residents or any resident from MD schools actually go on to do fellowships. Hell, I say I want to do a fellowship but I'm pretty sure once I'm done with my residency I'll be wanting to stay the hell away from anything related to training for a lifetime.

Likewise I don't understand why people think that IM subspecialties outside of Cards or GI are actually competitive. And mind you that I'd gut myself before doing either even if I was given the option.

 

[IslandStyle808]

You should honestly follow up your comment with at least the understanding that match lists at DO schools are getting better even beyond the 2-4 matchs in Derm/ Rad Onc/ Plastics that schools obtain. The caliber of residencies and matching to established programs is improving in many schools and there is familiarity with the graduates of DO students at programs in their states/ local.

Likewise it's worth mentioning that newer DO GME programs are still being founded and still keeping the door to specialization for DOs open.

I feel like schools themselves should be even more pro active about opening residencies, because at least they will be more willing to protect their own. I don't feel the same way about OPTI based from a hospital.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

I still don't understand where people got this idea that the majority or even a sizable minority of IM residents from MD schools actually go on to do fellowships.

Likewise I don't understand why people think that IM subspecialties outside of Cards or GI are actually competitive. And mind you that I'd gut myself before doing either even if I was given the option.

It's easy. Talk to all the kids that match into internal medicine at the majority of MD schools about their plan for the future. You will see why we say that and the fact that the primary care physician shortage across the nation is getting worse should tell you something. If the majority of IM residents actually stay as internists there would only be a shortage in the most underserved areas just like any other specialties.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The further I get along in this process the more I find myself agreeing with @MeatTornado.

The merger is going to sting some for current DO students (while some PDs stay loyal to their DO roots) and a LOT for the ones graduating in like 2025-2035 (when more MDs start applying for PD jobs held by former DOs).
Hopefully, this process will bring DO clinical training closer to MD clinical training, so those graduating in 2040 will see a more balanced playing field. Assuming the LCME doesn't pull the same move that they ACGME did and then it won't matter.

DO training isn't as far from MD training as MDs think it is, but it sure as heck isn't as close to MD training as DO students like to think.

The best thing this merger brings is confidence that employers will have hiring DO graduates knowing that they all completed ACGME training.

Again, plenty of DO GME are opening up just this year and in specialties including Plastics and Derm. These will be lead by DO PDs, the merger will have some negative implications for ppl who want to surgery, but to sacrifice the credentials of the vast majority for the sake of 100 ppl applying to surgery?

 

[68PGunner]

Not really. Many MD schools love to say that this X percentage of their grads are going to primary care...the truth is that they are not giving you the whole picture. A large percentage of those guys will going into fellowships afterward and subspecialize into several fields. Don't be defensive about the cold fact of the DO disadvantage. It's certainly nothing to be embarassed about. I actually admire and applaud many DO schools for staying true to their mission which is to produce primary care physicians. They do this much better than most MD schools and actually being honest about their intention unlike many MD schools which for whatever reasons can't say outright that they love to produce specialist and researchers (actually just as important as the goal to produce primary care physicians IMHO) DO grads who enter osteopathic schools with the true intention to becoming primary care physicians have my utmost respect but for those guy who use DO schools as a the backup into medicine thinking they'll become the next big name plastic surgeon or dermatologist at top 10 institutions are the guys that I'm less enthusiastic about...

LOL so all IM MDs will end up in Cardiology or GI fellowships. IM fellowships outside of Cardiology and GI aren't competitive. I'm not being defensive about the DO disadvantage. I could care less bc I see the future as residency matching for DOs being more based on merits rather than protected AOA residencies or other nonsense. Personally, I welcome that change.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It's easy. Talk to all the kids that match into internal medicine at the majority of MD schools about their plan for the future. You will see why we say that and the fact that the primary care physician shortage across the nation is getting worse should tell you something. If the majority of IM residents actually stay as internists there would only be a shortage in the most underserved areas just like any other specialties.

And lets ask them after they're in their 3rd year what they want to do.... Completely different story.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

LOL so all IM MDs will end up in Cardiology or GI fellowships. IM fellowships outside of Cardiology and GI aren't competitive. I'm not being defensive about the DO disadvantage. I could care less bc I see the future as residency matching for DOs being more based on merits rather than protected AOA residencies or other nonsense. Personally, I welcome that change.

Literally, all the hospitalists are either IMGs or DOs. If you find even one Internist doing Primary care who graduated from a MD school you've beat the odds.

Seriously, 90% of IM grads don't subspecialize.

 

[68PGunner]

It's easy. Talk to all the kids that match into internal medicine at the majority of MD schools about their plan for the future. You will see why we say that and the fact that the primary care physician shortage across the nation is getting worse should tell you something. If the majority of IM residents actually stay as internists there would only be a shortage in the most underserved areas just like any other specialties.

I know of a few buddies back in HS that are MD internists. They're still internists right now. People and their perspectives change. Like I said, earning 200K to practice primary care is a privilege.

 

[68PGunner]

Literally, all the hospitalists are either IMGs or DOs. If you find even one Internist doing Primary care who graduated from a MD school you've beat the odds.

Seriously, 90% of IM grads don't subspecialize.

Personally, if I am set into PCP, I would rather do family medicine instead of internal medicine. If I go the route of internal medicine, it's because I want to do a fellowship down the road. It's that simple for me.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Personally, if I am set into PCP, I would rather do family medicine instead of internal medicine. If I go the route of internal medicine, it's because I want to do a fellowship down the road. It's that simple for me.

Idk, I'm not interested in either frankly. IM is more preferable because Heme/ Oncs is probably the only thing outside of Neuro/Psych or Path that I'm actually interested in.

 

[Mjolner]

Again, plenty of DO GME are opening up just this year and in specialties including Plastics and Derm. These will be lead by DO PDs, the merger will have some negative implications for ppl who want to surgery, but to sacrifice the credentials of the vast majority for the sake of 100 ppl applying to surgery?

I'm not sure I'm understanding that last sentence.

 

[the argus]

Literally, all the hospitalists are either IMGs or DOs. If you find even one Internist doing Primary care who graduated from a MD school you've beat the odds.

Seriously, 90% of IM grads don't subspecialize.

Literally, you have no idea what you're talking about. I can think of 4 hospitalists at the small community hospital my program rotates through alone that are USMD grads. You have a habit of making comments on this forum that are completely ridiculous and do nothing but show how little experience you have.

 

[NurWollen]

I feel like schools themselves should be even more pro active about opening residencies, because at least they will be more willing to protect their own. I don't feel the same way about OPTI based from a hospital.

Isn't the whole point of OPTI's so that you have DO schools helping to organize hospital-based residencies? Does anyone know if the residency in this case belongs to the hospital or to the school?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Literally, you have no idea what you're talking about. I can think of 4 hospitalists at the small community hospital my program rotates through alone that are USMD grads. You have a habit of making comments on this forum that are completely ridiculous and do nothing but show how little experience you have.

Are you sleep deprived or just bad with sarcasm?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm not sure I'm understanding that last sentence.

Ppl like to bring up this notion that the matching abilities of DOs to get into competitive specialties will be damaged. I'm saying that not many DOs want surgery so we're really overblowing this.