encourage the pre-med!

[Febrifuge]

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Hey, EM people. I opened a thread in the RN/NP/PA section, so I won't go into the whole story here (search for it if you like under "EMT Pre-med struggling"). The question for you guys is, does anyone have first-hand knowledge of someone who SUCKED as a pre-med student, eventually worked it out, and is now happily doing the doc thing? (especially in EM?)

Obviously, I can't demonstrate my good qualities (which there are a few of! 😀) unless some med school somewhere is able to overlook the damage done to my application by my negative qualities. I guess I might wind up as "that one guy" that everybody seems to have heard about once, who gets in with a 3.0 GPA and a 42 MCAT, but that's a hell of a thing to count on. Not even I am that optimistic.

I used to joke that I was doing the pre-med thing (even this late in life) because I'd never 'come to my senses' and decided on nursing, the much more sane and sensible way to do emergency care. It's less of a joke all of a sudden.

 

[rpkall]

ahaha! Nice avatar! 👍

I had a 3.2 and a 32 MCAT in college; NO extracurriculars; pushing patients in wheelchairs for my part time hospital job... I was a horrible premed; I refused to compete with anyone, refused to work hard, refused to study my butt off for anything, and generally concentrated on much less important things... Cuz I was a pain in the as$ slacker ***** then. 😉

So I did a year program in nuclear medicine, then worked as a tech for a year, then ultimately wound up in PA school, decided to drop out and apply to med school--LATE, I might add, last Sept/October I submitted AMCAS/AACOMAS--and got in a few places. A couple DO schools and a couple MD schools, two waitlists (one I withdrew off of, the other I'm still waiting on but doesn't look like it's happening). I'm pretty sure I didn't need PA school to get in, either; I just wrote my heart out for the personal statement, and showed up on interview day to speak intelligently about my personal and professional growth since college. So no, I'm not going to Harvard, but it's a US allo school with some great clinical opportunities--and I'm happy. 🙂

Hope that helps some... I don't know about EM, though. I'm more of a psychiatry/family med guy. BTW, if you go DO you can do EM as well as a hundred other things, just like MDs. You should check it out. That's what I did--I was like, "Well, I just want to be a physician... Whatever school gives me the opportunity, that's where I'll go."

p.s. If you really rocked the MCAT and got a 42, I REALLY don't think you have anything to worry about. Just spend time proving that you really want to study medicine--volunteer, take a hospital job, retake a prereq you got a D in, etc--and you should be fine. As long as you write a bang-up personal statement and put together a well rounded, pretty package for them to look at.

p.p.s. It's a fallacy that you can't get in unless you're a "perfect" premed. The classes are populated with their fair share of nontraditional applicants who worked damn hard to make up for old mistakes, and who just want to have the chance to study medicine at that level. Sometimes adcoms prefer these types of applicants some years; sometimes they prefer the ones straight from a perfect undergrad situation. It just depends on which school, what kind of class they had last year (all brains and no pt care skills, or all pt care skills but lower board scores), and other factors they don't tell us about.

Yadda yadda yadda.

Good luck to ya, in any case! 😉

 

[mfrederi]

I had a slightly < 3.0 gpa when applying for med school. Fortunately I scored in the low 30's on the MCAT which opened some doors (just a crack though). My first application year I got several interviews, but rejected nontheless without even being wait listed. I forsaw this outcome and also applied to a post-bacc program, which accepted me (off the wait list). I ended up making a 3.88 in the post bacc program (with my only B coming after I already knew I was accepted) and began school the following year. Although I am certainly not top 10 (but top 25%) I have done well in school and on boards and am in a pretty good situaiton to get the residency I want. In general, I think most people at my school and most people looking at my transcripts would be surprised to find that I was the last person selected to the post bacc program, and therefore just barely made it into med school. However, I will tell you that I worked very hard in the post bacc program, and have to some degree maintained that work ethic in med school. So, it is possible to redeem your sub par undergrad performance, but at some point you have to work hard and prove yourself. If you go the post bacc / grad school route you will learn that the back door is even harder to open than the front door because every grade you make will be scrutinized. Realize though that there will be no easy way in, whether you go straight from undergrad or a non-trad route, you must at some point work hard and prove that you want it.

 

[Febrifuge]

RP and Fred: Thanks! Sadly, I am already IN the postbac, and it's here that i am discovering my "issues" with the more theoretical/ conceptual stuff in Orgo, my two-left-thumbs approach to math, etc. Which is weird, because I like this stuff, I'm studying my ARSE off, and I am as driven to succeed as any of my classmates (all of whom are at least slightly older, just not as much as me).

So it's a conundrum. I would love to be making a 3.7 in postbac, and I know it would make up for the old GPA. ... unfortunately, the picture coming together could look a lot like one where the poor old dude couldn't get it together, even after all that time and cash...

 

[beanbean]

Sorry to hear things are rough in post-bacc. I read your other thread and here are my thoughts:

Your ED experience should help give you a clearer idea of what route (MD, PA, RN, etc.) is best for you. You have spend time everyday with people in these roles. Who do you most identify with and why? Don't pick the doctor route just because it is the top slot in the hierarchy. What role do you wish to fill in patient care? Each career has positives and negatives...only you can decide what is best for you.

Post-Bacc: You need to figure out why you are having such a hard time with tests. It is definitely hard to go back to academics in your thirties. I am now 37 and in my MS3 year. I had a bad undergrad gpa and did a post-bacc like you. Fortunately, I did well in my post-bacc and on the MCAT, but I really wondered when I started if I could really succeed at this academic stuff. It had been 15 yrs since I had seen a periodic table (!) and here I was back in General Chem. My study habits are very different now than they were back in my twenties. It is hard to explain in writing, but I am much more focused and better at assessing my abilities in a subject matter than I was as a young undergrad.

Have you talked to your professors or any counselors in your program? Perhaps if you took a lighter load this semester you would be able to hone you study skills before tackling more of your prereqs. Did you do liberal arts as an under grad? I think the transition to a heavy science and math courseload can be rough. Preparing for orgo and calculus requires lots of practice problems, not just reviewing class notes and reading the book. What methods are you currently using to prepare for an exam? How do you feel during an exam? Do you feel like you studied the wrong things, have too little time, or feel like no matter how much you studied you just won't 'get it'.

Best of luck to you! Don't feel that 35 is the end of the road and you must make a decision now. Post bacc can be stretched out over a few years if necessary. The oldest person in my class is 47!

Deirdre

 

[ISU_Steve]

One of the finest EM's I know maintained such a poor average as an undergrad that he wound up going to medical school in the Phillipines, but came back did his residency and went on to become the Chief of EM at one of the local hospitals. Damn fine doctor and a decent human being. He left recently to go to a different hospital and it was a tremendous loss to the community, now we're stuck with an Indian example of why FMG's are generally looked down upon in his place.

So don't fret, it may be an uphill struggle but it certainly is not an insurmountable grade.

 

[margaritaboy]

Febrifuge,

Although we all probably know some non-traditional applicants that have made it into medical school, I do think that overall they are more the exception than the rule. The ones I know that did poorly in undergrad had stellar grades in graduate school and MCATs above average.

Though your hands on experience in the ER will certainly help you, I would really encourage you to bust ass and get the grades. Most med schools receive hundreds or even thousands of applications, and the fastest way to narrow the field is to have some sort of cut-off for GPA or MCAT score. By clearing this initial hurdle, application reviewers are more likely to read into your application and see your extensive ER experience, extracurriculars, and see that you have a good work ethic, are easy to get along with, and are committed to a career in medicine.

Applying to med school is a challenge, and it is also sort of a game. Play the game. Bust serious ass and get the best possible grades, especially in your science classes. Bust ass and do well on the MCAT. Do this because these are the first parameters that schools will use to see if it is worth reading the rest of your application. If you are anything remotely like your internet identity, you will blow them away once you get to the interviews. The trick is to get far enough with them in the application process so that they offer them to you.

You can do it. Don't give up.

 

[quideam]

Febrifuge,

Don't give up!!! The first step is to figure out what exactly you're having a tough time with. For example, if you did poorly on a chemistry test, do you look back at the test and figure out why? Is it that you didn't know the answers? Or that you knew them but let the question trick you? Or did you forget the correct answer under stress? None of what you're studying is made only for geniuses to understand - any average person can learn this material and do reasonably well (B or higher) in all of the bost-bacc classes. The difference between those who do well and those who don't is, I think, mostly about HOW you study - and everyone has to figure out their own system. Talking with a counselor or even other students about this is DEFINETELY a good way to go.

That being said, you should keep in mind that no matter how much work you do in undergrad, medical school is a thosuand times more. Again, it's not about difficulty - it's about quantity. So, you MUST figure out how to study correctly now, not because knowing how to do differential equations or being able to name the different species of flies is important to being a doctor, but because being able to internalize and regurgitate huge loads of nit-picky material is necessary to survive the first two years of medical school.

Good luck, and keep at it - if you want to. Do keep in mind that ER nurses (and you know this first hand) also do a ton of the patient care and have a very active role in medicine. Just don't forget about that option if all else fails. But, i'm telling you - if being an EM doctor is what you REALLY, REALLY want - then you can do it.

Good luck!!

Quid

 

[stoic]

Yo Febrifuge

hang in there dude. my first couple years of college were far less than stellar... so I ended up applying with like a 3.3gpa. I knew that this gpa certainly wasn't going to get me in, so i studying like CRAZY for the mcat and ended up doing quite well as a result. Coupling that with my med experience and other extracurriculars, i was able to get in early decision at my state school.

just bust your ass man, study study study study. and realize that the mcat will probably make or break you (hate to say it... but i do know the feeling well) and so take a prep class or do whatever else you can to nail that stupid test.

and before you know it you'll be hating physiology lectures as an ms-1, just like me!

but seriously, your a cool dude and we're all pulling for you.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Feb -

Hey, I questioned myself as well. I didn't do well in my biology class this summer. I was stretching myself thin. You have to honestly put the effort in. I know you are starting off up in the north but you have the drive to get things. I doubt myself as well but you need to keep at it. If you really want it you will get in. I also echo the sentiment that you need to know why you aren't doing well. Tutors are great for helping with concepts. 😀

 

[Febrifuge]

Thanks, everybody. Tutors are definitely part of the plan. The issue seems to be, I tend to need a little time to internalize stuff. Mull it over, work with it. Get a 360-degree sense of it. And there's no time. By the time I realized I needed help this summer, the damage had been done. I felt good while taking tests, usually, but the results are just not what I want. The PD says my answers look like those from someone who doesn't really get it, and I can't really formulate a suitable argument for why I'm presenting the info I'm presenting. This is particularly tough criticism because it's at least mostly true. I've never, ever had to think in this particular way. And I'm not sure I like it much.

Bio stuff is fine. Things that are observable and testable are fine. Given the time to study, I can do well describing processes and putting things together. Chem was my downfall, because as cool as sp3 orbitals are and as much as I'm starting to catch on, the pace at which I take up the really abstract, conceptual stuff is too slow for the program. So, maybe it's the wrong program; that's as likely as thinking I'm just built wrong for the material somehow. Dunno.

I do know I want to come back in the fall and do more, just maybe not the whole load my classmates have. I'm talking to the PD Monday. I can't just go home now. On the other hand I need more to my life than going crazy and playing the game, particularly as stubborn as I am. Another option is to go back to my original plan and point at PA school; that's a somewhat different game. We shall see.

Thanks everyone; the encouragement means a lot, seriously.

 

[DrQuinn]

Febby-

I totally support you in your support for medical school, and think you would make a great physician...

Dont' lose sight. We all at some point in our education felt we didnt' have enough to cut it. Shoot. I graduated high school with a 2.8. I took the Kaplan practice MCAT and got a 17. (Ended up getting a 28). Did ok in medical school, then was unsure of myself in my residency application. Six months into my internship I didn't think I could cut it in residency. Lots of times I wanted to quit...

Anyways, if you ever think about DO schools, lemme know, I will seriously write you a LOR.

Q

 

[FoughtFyr]

Ferb -

I'm with you brother! 2.8 undergrad GPA with a 30 MCAT. But I got in. So will you. It is about never quitting more than intelligence. If you get back home, let me know. Drop by Mayo for a shift, and I'll gladly write you a letter!

- H

 

[unk_fxn]

2.79 GPA out of undergrad. Studied 6 days a week, 2-5 hours a day for 5 months and pulled a 32 out on the MCAT, despite not sleeping the night before.

Preclinical stuff was sometimes awesome, often a drag. Clinical stuff was generally a lot of fun. Intern year is a blast so far. Getting in was by far the hardest part.

Think long and hard about if this what you really want. I don't regret it, but I have at times, and know many that do daily. Medicine is incredibly rewarding, but you will make many sacrifices to live the dream.

 

[Febrifuge]

The update: a related issue, and this came out in my Big Serious Meeting with my postbac PD yesterday, was just how willing I am (or am not) to do the remedial math stuff I would need to do, to get to 'fighting weight' with certain of these basic sciences courses. Yeah, I could take a year off and do Pre-calc, Trig, etc., but that would be the MOST BORING YEAR OF MY LIFE. Not to mention, I would like to do some things with my life beyond school and career.

Which is why at the moment, the plan is to think seriously about the PA route. That's a route that rewards my experience and people skills, while simultaneously does not require Physics, Calc, Orgo part II, etc. It seems almost too perfect. And from my big cogitation last year, I know I'd be quite happy as a PA. I said I'd go the MD route because if I didn't give it a shot I'd always wonder. Well... maybe I've had a taste and I will no longer wonder, eh?

So I dunno. But it's a good place for things to be right now. Mostly because my PD does not want to watch me keep banging my head against the wall of these courses I hate hate hate, screwing up my chances in the meantime. I will of course re-think all this on an ongoing basis.

You guys are awesome, seriously. This is why I love EM. The docs are not some uber-race of academic superstars; they're just damn good at being docs. And people.

 

[12R34Y]

I wrote this huge long response and my computer froze.........man that makes me mad.

bottom line...I was in your shoes years ago. Dropped out of college, bad grades, paramedic for years and ER tech as well. Then eventually got sick of "just being a medic" and wanted more.

I thought about the PA route as well. Afterall, it was cheaper, shorter, and I'd essentially be doing the work of a doc. Well, i talked to my medical director about it one day. He used to be a cardiothoracic surgery PA and then went back to medical school/EM residency. His advice.......if you have any part of you that desires to be the doctor then DON'T go the PA route. Those feeling won't change. It is essentially a quick fix.

Only go the PA route if you really love and want to be a PA. Don't do it because it is a little rough now and use it as a back-up to your original plan of being a doc.

Whatever you choose good luck and keep us posted.

later

 

[sunnyjohn]

Febrifuge,

I've been folowing your story since I joined SDN back in Feb. You are one of my SDN heros.

Don't get discouraged. Whatever you decide to do. MD/DO or PA I know you will be great.


Healthcare needs smart caring folks like you.

Agape