Fellowship.

[DogSnoot]

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Post was a question about timeline.

Answer obtained, deleting post.

 

[Homo sapien]

What are you trying to do the fellowship for? Research? Or because you didn't think your residency was enough

 

[air bud]

I know fellowships are a polar topic, some love it others hate it.

Help me plan my life. When is a good month/timeline to visit a fellowship program and when is a good timeline to apply ?

What west coast programs are worth loosing 12 months of pay and provide good training. I’m not interested in Charcot Recon/Wound Care.

Ah yes, because there is such a demand for podiatrists with strong reconstructive surgery skills...

Edit - what's the saying in the military? Embrace the suck? The sooner you as a podiatrist embrace the wounds the better off your life will be the more stability and business you will have. Source: trust me bro. And @Retrograde_Nail

And you don't need a fellowship.

 

[deleted1162946]

just drop out and do medical school and become an orthopedic surgeon

 

[BubbaWub]

just drop out and do medical school and become an orthopedic surgeon

I feel like about 30-40% of the podiatrists I meet should have done this. I even asked a colleague recently, "well, did you ever consider going to medical school?"

He responded, "I did go to medical school."

He is a podiatrist. 🤔

 

[air bud]

If you have to ask these questions on sdn you're probably not at a program that is going to set you up to get a legitimate Fellowship so it's waste of a year. You are welcome.

The sooner you guys realize that most of us here on sdn know what we are talking about and how the real world works the better your career will be

 

[Feli]

just drop out and do medical school and become an orthopedic surgeon

If I had a dollar for every podiatrist I've met who "considered going into orthopedics." 🤣





...for the OP, go to ACFAS list of approved fellowships, and they'll say what their timelines and application windows are (both general and program-specific). The CPME approved fellowships are garbage not worth doing (neither are at least half of the ACFAS ones).

 

[Robin-jay]

for the OP, go to ACFAS list of approved fellowships, and they'll say what their timelines and application windows are (both general and program-specific). The CPME approved fellowships are garbage not worth doing (neither are at least half of the ACFAS ones).

What is the difference between ACFAS approved fellowships and ACFAS non-approved fellowships? Would orthopedic groups/hospitals/etc. even know the difference or care?

 

[Weirdy]

What is the difference between ACFAS approved fellowships and ACFAS non-approved fellowships? Would orthopedic groups/hospitals/etc. even know the difference or care?

They don't. Just like how everyone in medicine has no idea how bad the discrepancies are in podiatry residency training.

Going to go on a limb here and suspect the level of training you get might be higher quality in the ACFAS approved ones.

I've seen non approved fellowships that were nothing more than a private group paying a 75k salary for a "sports medicine" fellowship that involved clinic and going to games occasionally for the local sports team.

Would it have made my resume look shiny? To people who don't know- probably.
I don't think I would've gained anything extra that my residency didn't already teach.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

What is the difference between ACFAS approved fellowships and ACFAS non-approved fellowships? Would orthopedic groups/hospitals/etc. even know the difference or care?

Ortho and hospitals don't know and they don't care....at all. If you think they care then you are wrong. Trust me they do not care at all.

 

[Robin-jay]

Ortho and hospitals don't know and they don't care....at all. If you think they care then you are wrong. Trust me they do not care at all.

I figured as much, but just wanted confirmation.

 

[Hybrocure]

Imagine introducing yourself to the local hospital orthos as a “foot and ankle surgeon” instead of “hey I’m a podiatrist”.

There’s a bit of cringe to be had.

Every top tier podiatry residency attending and podiatrists who are at ortho jobs introduce themselves as “the podiatrist” to their MD and DO colleagues and bosses even though they may lord over you while you’re a student or resident.

Accept it and embrace it. Be what you are. Everyone loves podiatrists. We are literally one of the most chill professions that hospital staff like and MDs and DOs want on staff to consult. Whenever I run into MDs and DOs on my patient care team and introduce myself as the patients podiatrist they light up and talk shop. It’s not a bad thing. You gain just as much respect being a podiatrist than you do being a fellowship trained whatever

 

[Feli]

Imagine introducing yourself to the local hospital orthos as a “foot and ankle surgeon” instead of “hey I’m a podiatrist”.

There’s a bit of cringe to be had.

Every top tier podiatry residency attending and podiatrists who are at ortho jobs introduce themselves as “the podiatrist” to their MD and DO colleagues and bosses even though they may lord over you while you’re a student or resident.

Accept it and embrace it. Be what you are. Everyone loves podiatrists. We are literally one of the most chill professions that hospital staff like and MDs and DOs want on staff to consult. Whenever I run into MDs and DOs on my patient care team and introduce myself as the patients podiatrist they light up and talk shop. It’s not a bad thing. You gain just as much respect being a podiatrist than you do being a fellowship trained whatever

I agree fully.

There is a gap between what DPMs do and say with other docs... versus what they do to public/marketing/recruiters/colleagues.
The fact of the matter is that most of the work out there for DPMs is wounds, nails and calluses, skin issues, and a bit of forefoot surgery.
What most DPMs want is less of that wound/nail stuff... and more injuries, sports med, bone/joint, RRA, ankle stuff.

This is the main reason why fellowship is so superfluous: we are already trained for the core podiatry things there are jobs and demand for (but many grads are hoping to avoid and minimize those things!). There is very, very, VERY little demand for the bigtime recon surgery podiatry jobs (hence the aggressive marketing, branding, doing fellowship to make connections). While ortho and hospitals and MSG jobs don't know or care about our fellowships, they do want people with the requisite skill set (which decent top-half residency gives)... and job decision makers are often still pods who do know our training, certs, etc.

Ah yes, because there is such a demand for podiatrists with strong reconstructive surgery skills...

Yes.

If you have to ask these questions on sdn you're probably not at a program that is going to set you up to get a legitimate Fellowship so it's waste of a year. You are welcome.

The sooner you guys realize that most of us here on sdn know what we are talking about and how the real world works the better your career will be

Double yes. ^^^

The very few podiatry fellowships worth doing, some of the better ACFAS ones, have such good attendings and cases that they will increase skills (although still very hard to find jobs afterward using those skills, likely have to look far and wide). Those fellowships will pick from among top tier residency grads - although they have now watered down and take more free PA/research labor (aka fellows) per year. That makes them easier to obtain, but it weakens their training and connection power (more grads to place). So, even with those top flight fellowships in podiatry, you are learning with docs who basically have the same good training you should have (they just have a job setup with more good cases). It's a gamble to do those; some will work out in terms of connections... but you lose a year. I would've tried for one if I were an immortal vampire. When my practicing career is prob 20-35yrs? No, not worth a year. It's hard to practice overall - esp do surgery and big recons - to a late age.

If anything, for the average or lower end residency podiatry grad (who has no chance at elite fellowship and might need more surgery reps), a fellowship year with one of the truly rocking practices would be semi-viable for the practice management aspect. Sure, that exp will come in any job after residency (and job year pays 2-4x more then fellowship year). However, if one's residency was inadequate and the fellowship group is busy and semi-competent, that billing and coding and seeing a high volume of patients and doing some more surgery with training wheels on is something that'll benefit most DPMs... and you also get a fellowship on CV... as well as possible job option or connections with that group.

The vast majority of DPM fellowships offered are just more cases for things one should've learned in residency... they're done just to hope for job connects or have a CV booster or to pathetically angle for a job with fellowship sponsor group. I always love to ask people what their podiatry fellowship is in (invariable "advanced recon" or "limb salvage" or "Dr. So-and-so"... but it's all just more podiatry... nothing that couldn't or shouldn't have been learned in a good residency, and we know it). That is the norm now, and it's pretty sad.

It is better for 95% of ppl to get out there after DPM and 3yrs residency, start making money and getting exp. We generally don't have the need, the time, or the money to be doing fellowships... but it's an individual call.

 

[Adam Smasher]

There's some great info on fellowships here, we should sticky this thread.

Oh wait...

 

[iridocyclitiss]

I think even the high tier fellowships aren’t what they used to be.

OFAC has 3 fellows
PAMF may be getting 3

Really limiting the options. I was interested in doing fellowship but honestly why would I choose to make 50 k when you could make 150k

 

[wakaflocka88]

I think even the high tier fellowships aren’t what they used to be.

OFAC has 3 fellows
PAMF may be getting 3

Really limiting the options. I was interested in doing fellowship but honestly why would I choose to make 50 k when you could make 150k

Ah yes. More fellows needed to see more post op patients everyday. Have fun getting paid less than a PA/NP

 

[Feli]

I think even the high tier fellowships aren’t what they used to be.

OFAC has 3 fellows
PAMF may be getting 3

Really limiting the options. I was interested in doing fellowship but honestly why would I choose to make 50 k when you could make 150k

Yes, 100%... and the job placements, even for elite podiatry fellowships, are getting worse.

In 2010 or 2015, most all grads from elite fellowships (and most top residencies) did get ortho groups or hospital FTE employed gigs if they wanted those and would be flexible on where. Now, a fair amount of grads from very good fellowships take ordinary podiatry PP or VC/supergroup or MSG jobs that nearly any regular 3yr grad who passed ABFAS BQ could get. I was going to link to a bunch of them, but it's kinda rude to the individuals... either way, not hard to find out. The value of even the few excellent attending/training podiatry fellowships has diminished... partly due to overall saturation of DPM "foot and ankle surgeon", but partly because those same fellowships have 2x or 3x as many fellows to try to place annually.

 

[hematosis]

Ah yes. More fellows needed to see more post op patients everyday. Have fun getting paid less than a PA/NP

This.

To those that want to do a fellowship do yourself a HUGE favor and do the following experiment that takes 2 hours of your time.

Go call a couple of orthopedic foot and ankle or any fellowship trained orthopedic surgeon and ask them about their fellowship experience.
Ask them if they had their own clinic and generated cases for their boards, had their own OR time, etc.

Now do the same with PAMF, OFAC or blah blah podiatry fellowship. You'll realize how poorly structured podiatry fellowships are. You are doing scut work, stuck in a clinic seeing 30 post ops 3 days a week while your attending generates RVU and sees all the new patients. You are then scrubbing in cases and they bill your assistant fee which then generates your fellowship salary. You are pure profit for them. Cheaper than hiring a MA. You waste a board eligibility year doing this. Yet all these incompetent old residency attending promote podiatry fellowships. Podiatry fellowship is not a REAL fellowship.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

You'll realize how poorly structured podiatry fellowships are.

You are doing scut work, stuck in a clinic seeing 30 post ops 3 days a week while your attending generates RVU and sees all the new patients. You are then scrubbing in cases and they bill your assistant fee which then generates your fellowship salary.

Podiatry fellowship is not a REAL fellowship.

Some podiatry fellowships are merely apprenticeships in private practices.

Choose to do a fellowship with a good mentor. That can have an enormous impact on your career trajectory.

Yes, podiatry fellowships are different, but this is largely due to CPME not taking control and standardizing fellowships. Albeit, CPME approved fellowships are more standardized than ACFAS recognized ones and have more protections for the fellow.

Fellowships should have standard curriculum, just like residencies. And they should have standard names. In podiatry you can call a fellowship whatever you want. This is not the same for ACGME fellowships.