For those of you who picked an Ivy League school over your state school, why and do you regret it?

[toothdoctor123]

I'm sorry but please tell me you didn't just spend $125,000 extra on essentially the same education, not to mention cost of living difference.

If you're not afraid of what that number grows to with interest then all I can say is you are a much braver soul than I am.

The numbers @Incis0r posted look accurate, but, no, I'm paying about $70-80k more to go to Columbia due to personal circumstances. In terms of living expenses, my rent is $800/mo and I cook cheap meals in my apartment. It's the biggest apartment I've ever had. Not only do I not need a car; I don't even need a subway pass because every Columbia building is within two blocks of my apartment. Most of my classmates are in similar situations. And Washington Heights is one of the safest neighborhoods in NYC, according to NYPD (although it was one of the most dangerous neighborhoods 20 years ago).

@Incis0r is right--while Columbia and UConn both have medical school curricula (along with Harvard and Stony Brook), the similarities largely end there. UConn is clearly making some big changes...it resembles Harvard moreso than Columbia due to PBL, class size, rigor, etc.

Honestly, if you're in the Class of 2020 at UConn, you're the braver soul for acting as a guinea pig for that curriculum overhaul. My understanding was that the changes were decided by the medical faculty there, and the dental school had little say in the matter. I'm sure you'll still do great--possibly even better than you guys did before--in the long run, but I imagine that you guys will be experiencing a LOT of extra stress that we don't have. For example, D1s at Columbia are given so many course-specific study resources refined by previous classes that no one has to look at outside textbooks anymore.

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[Scumbag_Steve]

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[wengerout]

I was admitted to Harvard for dental school and went to my state school instead (not a "prestigious" state school, either), mainly because my state school was in a more desirable place to me and had a much stronger clinical curriculum. I then ended up matching to Harvard for a residency after dental school. I am very happy I chose my state school for undergrad. Harvard is strong in research and medicine, but their clinical curriculum is, to put it nicely, unsatisfactory. If you plan to specialize or pursue academia/research, then it's great. If you plan to practice general dentistry, one would be much better served at a state school. I liked the curriculum at Columbia when I visited there, but it's super expensive and barely in Manhattan. Penn's clinic looks like a high school gymnasium, and it's extremely expensive; I've never understood why people are enamored with it.

Overall I haven't been very impressed with the HSDM facilities, faculty or curricula. I also haven't been any more impressed by the caliber of student that's come from Harvard, Penn, Columbia, etc versus students from any other dental school, including the schools that get a bad rep on these forums. The adage is certainly true: choose the cheapest school you can get into. Also choose the place you're going to be happiest for four years.

Thank you so much for your advice! Do you mind if I message you with some additional questions?


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[Steins;Gate]

I was admitted to Harvard for dental school and went to my state school instead (not a "prestigious" state school, either), mainly because my state school was in a more desirable place to me and had a much stronger clinical curriculum. I then ended up matching to Harvard for a residency after dental school. I am very happy I chose my state school for undergrad. Harvard is strong in research and medicine, but their clinical curriculum is, to put it nicely, unsatisfactory. If you plan to specialize or pursue academia/research, then it's great. If you plan to practice general dentistry, one would be much better served at a state school. I liked the curriculum at Columbia when I visited there, but it's super expensive and barely in Manhattan. Penn's clinic looks like a high school gymnasium, and it's extremely expensive; I've never understood why people are enamored with it.

Overall I haven't been very impressed with the HSDM facilities, faculty or curricula. I also haven't been any more impressed by the caliber of student that's come from Harvard, Penn, Columbia, etc versus students from any other dental school, including the schools that get a bad rep on these forums. The adage is certainly true: choose the cheapest school you can get into. Also choose the place you're going to be happiest for four years.

Same, do you mind if I PM you with some questions as well?

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[toothdoctor123]

I was admitted to Harvard for dental school and went to my state school instead (not a "prestigious" state school, either), mainly because my state school was in a more desirable place to me and had a much stronger clinical curriculum. I then ended up matching to Harvard for a residency after dental school. I am very happy I chose my state school for undergrad. Harvard is strong in research and medicine, but their clinical curriculum is, to put it nicely, unsatisfactory. If you plan to specialize or pursue academia/research, then it's great. If you plan to practice general dentistry, one would be much better served at a state school. I liked the curriculum at Columbia when I visited there, but it's super expensive and barely in Manhattan. Penn's clinic looks like a high school gymnasium, and it's extremely expensive; I've never understood why people are enamored with it.

Overall I haven't been very impressed with the HSDM facilities, faculty or curricula. I also haven't been any more impressed by the caliber of student that's come from Harvard, Penn, Columbia, etc versus students from any other dental school, including the schools that get a bad rep on these forums. The adage is certainly true: choose the cheapest school you can get into. Also choose the place you're going to be happiest for four years.

Going off @DMD_2016 's discussion here, it is important for the pre-dents who are asking about the Ivy League to realize that Harvard, Columbia, and Penn offer completely different educations. It's really not useful to group them and make generalizations when Harvard is more similar to UConn than to Penn, and Penn is more similar to UMD or Tufts than to Columbia. No one is arguing that Ivy League prestige really exists within dentistry. Also, when you're a dental student at one of these schools, you'll quickly realize that you're second class to the med students, grad students, law students, etc. The umbrella universities tend forget that you even exist because dental schools don't produce the world leaders and billionaires that Harvard Law and Wharton do.

As a Columbia student, let me be the first person here to say that there is no prestige in being a dental student at an Ivy League school. Do NOT choose a school because you think it is prestigious. But let me also say that Harvard, Columbia, and Penn offer unique opportunities no other schools provide, and if those particular things are important to you, then you absolutely can justify paying more for them.

ALL dental schools are ridiculously expensive. At this point, whether you're choosing $350k of debt for a state education or $450k of debt for a private one, you're essentially taking the same risk with your life. Only two things can happen: (1) you're going to make really good money early in your career, pay off your debt, and get rich when you're older, or (2) you're going to spend your whole life paying off loans and live a lower-middle-class existence. In other words, if you can't afford $450k, chances are you can't afford $350k either. You have no choice but to do whatever you can to set yourself up to be a high earner, and that might mean choosing the more expensive school.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[Incis0r]

. Also, when you're a dental student at one of these schools, you'll quickly realize that you're second class to the med students, grad students, law students, etc. The umbrella universities tend forget that you even exist because dental schools don't produce the world leaders and billionaires that Harvard Law and Wharton do.

Wow. Is this how the culture is at Columbia? good to know...
@FeralisExtremum do you feel that you are "second class to the med students" at Columbia?

 

[Steins;Gate]

Going off @DMD_2016 's discussion here, it is important for the pre-dents who are asking about the Ivy League to realize that Harvard, Columbia, and Penn offer completely different educations. It's really not useful to group them and make generalizations when Harvard is more similar to UConn than to Penn, and Penn is more similar to UMD or Tufts than to Columbia. No one is arguing that Ivy League prestige really exists within dentistry. Also, when you're a dental student at one of these schools, you'll quickly realize that you're second class to the med students, grad students, law students, etc. The umbrella universities tend forget that you even exist because dental schools don't produce the world leaders and billionaires that Harvard Law and Wharton do.

As a Columbia student, let me be the first person here to say that there is no prestige in being a dental student at an Ivy League school. Do NOT choose a school because you think it is prestigious. But let me also say that Harvard, Columbia, and Penn offer unique opportunities no other schools provide, and if those particular things are important to you, then you absolutely can justify paying more for them.

ALL dental schools are ridiculously expensive. At this point, whether you're choosing $350k of debt for a state education or $450k of debt for a private one, you're essentially taking the same risk with your life. Only two things can happen: (1) you're going to make really good money early in your career, pay off your debt, and get rich when you're older, or (2) you're going to spend your whole life paying off loans and live a lower-middle-class existence. In other words, if you can't afford $450k, chances are you can't afford $350k either. You have no choice but to do whatever you can to set yourself up to be a high earner, and that might mean choosing the more expensive school.

What are the "unique" opportunities at Ivies?

 

[CanaDMD]

Going off @DMD_2016 's discussion here, it is important for the pre-dents who are asking about the Ivy League to realize that Harvard, Columbia, and Penn offer completely different educations. It's really not useful to group them and make generalizations when Harvard is more similar to UConn than to Penn, and Penn is more similar to UMD or Tufts than to Columbia. No one is arguing that Ivy League prestige really exists within dentistry. Also, when you're a dental student at one of these schools, you'll quickly realize that you're second class to the med students, grad students, law students, etc. The umbrella universities tend forget that you even exist because dental schools don't produce the world leaders and billionaires that Harvard Law and Wharton do.

As a Columbia student, let me be the first person here to say that there is no prestige in being a dental student at an Ivy League school. Do NOT choose a school because you think it is prestigious. But let me also say that Harvard, Columbia, and Penn offer unique opportunities no other schools provide, and if those particular things are important to you, then you absolutely can justify paying more for them.

ALL dental schools are ridiculously expensive. At this point, whether you're choosing $350k of debt for a state education or $450k of debt for a private one, you're essentially taking the same risk with your life. Only two things can happen: (1) you're going to make really good money early in your career, pay off your debt, and get rich when you're older, or (2) you're going to spend your whole life paying off loans and live a lower-middle-class existence. In other words, if you can't afford $450k, chances are you can't afford $350k either. You have no choice but to do whatever you can to set yourself up to be a high earner, and that might mean choosing the more expensive school.

Out of sheer curiosity, what unique opportunities do these schools provide?

 

[personalstatementsbyeric]

This is definitely not the culture at many schools and fyi, investment banking, law, public health... does NOT guarantee you to become a billionaire coming out of Harvard lol. Look up average salaries of Wharton grads/HBS grads/Harvard law grads. These statements are uneducated and ill informed

 

[personalstatementsbyeric]

Out of sheer curiosity, what unique opportunities do these schools provide?

FYI, PENN being compared to UDM or Tufts is laughable. All three of these corriculums and postgraduate goals are vastly different.

 

[wengerout]

Out of sheer curiosity, what unique opportunities do these schools provide?

The one I recall from the interview day is their DDS/MBA program. Obviously other schools have an MBA program, but other schools don't have a top 5 business school. They had grads who went to work on Wall Street "for fun" before opening a practice, it was crazy (in a good way).


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[CanaDMD]

The one I recall from the interview day is their DDS/MBA program. Obviously other schools have an MBA program, but other schools don't have a top 5 business school. They had grads who went to work on Wall Street "for fun" before opening a practice, it was crazy (in a good way).


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I don't think this can be considered a unique opportunity this school is offering you during dental school. Let's focus more on those (though what you mentioned is definitely insane!)

 

[personalstatementsbyeric]

BTW every single individual you was given an acceptance to Harvard last year took it and matriculated per the ADEA handbook.

 

[wengerout]

BTW every single individual you was given an acceptance to Harvard last year took it and matriculated per the ADEA handbook.

Really? Very interesting.


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[Incis0r]

BTW every single individual you was given an acceptance to Harvard last year took it and matriculated per the ADEA handbook.

How do you have this information? I thought ADEA didn't release a new guide this cycle?

According to the ADEA website, the information in the latest guide is from the 2014 entering class, not from the 2015-2016 cycle: http://www.adea.org/officialguide/

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[toothdoctor123]

Wow. Is this how the culture is at Columbia? good to know...

Everyone is very friendly, but surely this isn't the first time you've heard that some people think physicians are smarter than dentists. It's all changing very quickly though, as the competitiveness of dental applicants increases and that of med students decreases. And honestly it's good that we keep a low profile within the university because we can avoid the oppressive policies and political culture characteristic of the modern Ivy League institution.

What are the "unique" opportunities at Ivies?

Depends on the school. Every dental school is unique; I didn't mean to suggest that only Ivies have unique opportunities. My mistake.

This is definitely not the culture at many schools and fyi, investment banking, law, public health... does NOT guarantee you to become a billionaire coming out of Harvard lol. Look up average salaries of Wharton grads/HBS grads/Harvard law grads. These statements are uneducated and ill informed

That's not what I was saying. I was saying that dental schools do not produce billionaires and U.S. presidents (rather, they produce dentists), but indeed Wharton & Harvard Law do.

BTW every single individual you was given an acceptance to Harvard last year took it and matriculated per the ADEA handbook.

For the Class of 2019? That's not true. One of my friends turned down Harvard for Columbia. The ADEA handbook is a good guide, but they've misreported stats before. Sometimes they're just typos.

 

[GoldenDomer11]

@The Flossopher what year are you?

Wow. Is this how the culture is at Columbia? good to know...

As a first year only a few months in, I would have to say that I don't feel like a "second class" citizen at all, despite sharing classes with the med students. For the first year and a half, we're actually working way harder than them, since they only have pass/fail grading and we have to work our tails off if we want to get honors. This might just be my biased perception, since on the first set of exams the dental student averages were basically identical to the medical students' averages. The med school faculty that I've interacted have gone above and beyond to accommodate us, (e.g. in anatomy lab we are treated exactly like the med students, and even given our own separate time outside of lab to review with the professors).

 

[wengerout]

@The Flossopher what year are you?



As a first year only a few months in, I would have to say that I don't feel like a "second class" citizen at all, despite sharing classes with the med students. For the first year and a half, we're actually working way harder than them, since they only have pass/fail grading and we have to work our tails off if we want to get honors. This might just be my biased perception, since on the first set of exams the dental student averages were basically identical to the medical students' averages. The med school faculty that I've interacted have gone above and beyond to accommodate us, (e.g. in anatomy lab we are treated exactly like the med students, and even given our own separate time outside of lab to review with the professors).

The more I see people getting corrected on SDN, the more I realize I should take everything on here with a grain of salt, lol


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[personalstatementsbyeric]

pg 35 2015-2016 handbook. Looks like all their other stats are about right. Plenty turned down Columbia, but no one declined Harvard. These are the reasons why I fact check what people often say on here, because numbers don't lie, people often do.

 

[toothdoctor123]

@The Flossopher what year are you?



As a first year only a few months in, I would have to say that I don't feel like a "second class" citizen at all, despite sharing classes with the med students. For the first year and a half, we're actually working way harder than them, since they only have pass/fail grading and we have to work our tails off if we want to get honors. This might just be my biased perception, since on the first set of exams the dental student averages were basically identical to the medical students' averages. The med school faculty that I've interacted have gone above and beyond to accommodate us, (e.g. in anatomy lab we are treated exactly like the med students, and even given our own separate time outside of lab to review with the professors).

I'd prefer not to give away my identity on the public forums...send me a PM if you want to know. Or come meet me in Hammer...lol.

I was saying something cynical as part of a larger point about the lack of prestige within dentistry to discourage any pre-dents from thinking they will feel special or superior walking around an Ivy League campus just because they are a dental student there. (Of course, we both know the reality is that we're just as smart as the med students.) I was thinking more along the lines of how the professors make a big deal in lecture about how the dental students scored as high as the med students, which then elicits gasps from the med students. All of the surprise and the extra congratulations just comes off as a little patronizing to me. It's a very minor--microscopic, even--complaint, but I said it because it illustrates the fact that people don't expect us to be as smart as the med students. The expectation is what is indicative of a perception of our (lesser) prestige, and our actual experience here, which is great, is indicative of the meaninglessness of prestige. I'm sorry I didn't make my point clear before...I wrote that rather quickly.

pg 35 2015-2016 handbook. Looks like all their other stats are about right. Plenty turned down Columbia, but no one declined Harvard. These are the reasons why I fact check what people often say on here, because numbers don't lie, people often do

Numbers lie if they're wrong (in reference to Harvard). There isn't really much quality control for the figures the ADEA receive from schools. Like I said, could even be a typo.

Of course people turn down Columbia. It's not for everybody. Ask @Scumbag_Steve or Big Time Hoosier about that.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[Henry Killinger]

pg 35 2015-2016 handbook. Looks like all their other stats are about right. Plenty turned down Columbia, but no one declined Harvard. These are the reasons why I fact check what people often say on here, because numbers don't lie, people often do.

Huh, I didn't even know they had that page where it tells you offers vs acceptances and such. I always just flipped straight to school pages. Thanks!

 

[Henry Killinger]

I just noticed Bentley ads popping up on this thread after Hoss started talking about Lambos

 

[FeralisExtremum]

BTW every single individual you was given an acceptance to Harvard last year took it and matriculated per the ADEA handbook.

Not true, I personally know of at least one person at Columbia (from this most recent cycle) who turned down Harvard. Some schools only report their accepted number of students, so that number appears twice for offers/acceptances.

 

[Incis0r]

I personally know of at least one person at Columbia (from this most recent cycle) who turned down Harvard.

Can confirm. I know who you're speaking of, and that guy is epic.

 

[Pedodel]

Where you go to dental school has almost zero meaning on how your career unfolds.
There may be more gunners at an Ivy League school, but Most Ivy League school give their studens less clinical experience. A state school that gives you more clinical experience is way more valuable to a program director ( if specializing) than if you went to an Ivy league school. Standing around watching procedures is not very helpfull in learning dentistry.

The only way going to an Ivy league may be beneficial is if you want to go into research.

Anyone with half a brain will go to the liest expensive school with a really good supply of clinical patients.

 

[FeralisExtremum]

@FeralisExtremum do you feel that you are "second class to the med students" at Columbia?

Only in a few very specific ways, but it doesn't really bother me.

 

[osseointegration]

Literally made a new account to answer this so it stays anonymous so my apologies if that makes the answer less legitimate somehow. Another perspective: I turned down HSDM/Penn/UConn to attend my state school (will not be mentioning name, sorry). Didn't apply to Columbia or go to any other interviews. Ivy interview = straight up told me that people come there for an ivy diploma/transcript/connections, or to become dental school administration someday. UConn was damn proud to be a pseudo-Ivy and pump out specialties despite being a state school. I knew I wanted to specialize, went to my state school anyway, am now accepted into orthodontics residency in a non-match program (and, to boot, was accepted over other Ivy kids I interviewed with).

long story short: if you want to specialize, go wherever just get good grades/ECs/letters and network. If you want to be fancy, go to the Ivy. I obviously thought about it and my parents loved telling people their child got into ivy schools.

also some food for thought: half of my patients don't even realize you need a college education + 4 years dental school to be a dentist. Trust me, 95% of them won't know or be impressed that you went to an ivy school. Real quotes from real people I have really heard: "how long is the dental school program, 9 months? A year?" and "So, is this a certificate program?" "I had no idea you had to go to school to be a dentist I always thought it was like being a car salesman" "after a few years as an assistant i'll be able to work as a dentist"

 

[wengerout]

Where you go to dental school has almost zero meaning on how your career unfolds.
There may be more gunners at an Ivy League school, but Most Ivy League school give their studens less clinical experience. A state school that gives you more clinical experience is way more valuable to a program director ( if specializing) than if you went to an Ivy league school. Standing around watching procedures is not very helpfull in learning dentistry.

The only way going to an Ivy league may be beneficial is if you want to go into research.

Anyone with half a brain will go to the liest expensive school with a really good supply of clinical patients.

Yet plenty of people with "more than half a brain" choose to go to the Ivy schools.

As I said in another thread the whole idea that "state schools give more clinical" seems pretty subjective judging by how every interview I have been on said they give their students good clinical experience.

If I'm lucky enough to get into the schools I applied to I'll talk to my family and figure out what the best decision is for me.


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[wengerout]

Literally made a new account to answer this so it stays anonymous so my apologies if that makes the answer less legitimate somehow. Another perspective: I turned down HSDM/Penn/UConn to attend my state school (will not be mentioning name, sorry). Didn't apply to Columbia or go to any other interviews. Ivy interview = straight up told me that people come there for an ivy diploma/transcript/connections, or to become dental school administration someday. UConn was damn proud to be a pseudo-Ivy and pump out specialties despite being a state school. I knew I wanted to specialize, went to my state school anyway, am now accepted into orthodontics residency in a non-match program (and, to boot, was accepted over other Ivy kids I interviewed with).

long story short: if you want to specialize, go wherever just get good grades/ECs/letters and network. If you want to be fancy, go to the Ivy. I obviously thought about it and my parents loved telling people their child got into ivy schools.

also some food for thought: half of my patients don't even realize you need a college education + 4 years dental school to be a dentist. Trust me, 95% of them won't know or be impressed that you went to an ivy school. Real quotes from real people I have really heard: "how long is the dental school program, 9 months? A year?" and "So, is this a certificate program?" "I had no idea you had to go to school to be a dentist I always thought it was like being a car salesman" "after a few years as an assistant i'll be able to work as a dentist"

I appreciate your response and congrats on the residency! Since it's non-match do you have to pay tuition? How many match programs are there?


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[toothdoctor123]

Literally made a new account to answer this so it stays anonymous so my apologies if that makes the answer less legitimate somehow. Another perspective: I turned down HSDM/Penn/UConn to attend my state school (will not be mentioning name, sorry). Didn't apply to Columbia or go to any other interviews. Ivy interview = straight up told me that people come there for an ivy diploma/transcript/connections, or to become dental school administration someday. UConn was damn proud to be a pseudo-Ivy and pump out specialties despite being a state school. I knew I wanted to specialize, went to my state school anyway, am now accepted into orthodontics residency in a non-match program (and, to boot, was accepted over other Ivy kids I interviewed with).

long story short: if you want to specialize, go wherever just get good grades/ECs/letters and network. If you want to be fancy, go to the Ivy. I obviously thought about it and my parents loved telling people their child got into ivy schools.

also some food for thought: half of my patients don't even realize you need a college education + 4 years dental school to be a dentist. Trust me, 95% of them won't know or be impressed that you went to an ivy school. Real quotes from real people I have really heard: "how long is the dental school program, 9 months? A year?" and "So, is this a certificate program?" "I had no idea you had to go to school to be a dentist I always thought it was like being a car salesman" "after a few years as an assistant i'll be able to work as a dentist"

Even as an Ivy Leaguer (so to speak), I appreciate your balanced perspective. We're both here to help prospective dental students make the right choice, which will not always be an Ivy League school.

But again, it's a bit misleading to chalk up your experience at one Ivy League school to all three, since they are so different. (I'm 90% sure you're talking about your Harvard interview.) Columbia is most proud of its specialization rates and Harvard is most narrowly focused on academia/research, whereas Penn has a wholly different philosophy and brags about its superior clinical education. You are totally right about UConn administrators comparing the school to Ivies, which I found off-putting when I interviewed there because I think it can march to the beat of its own drum as a legitimate leading institution in its own right. However, you must grant that, despite the match-rate data, UConn officially claims to be committed to producing general dentists first and specialists second.

I do think it's worth mentioning that at Columbia and Harvard, you could effectively be toward the bottom of your class and still match into your preferred OMFS program, which would not be possible at other schools. This is a demonstrable fact. The deans and professors will support your post-grad goals with appropriate recommendation letters regardless of relative academic performance if you pass every course and score highly on the CBSE (or now, the ADAT). It is commonly presumed that if you are accepted to an Ivy, you would be at the top of the class of any other dental school; however, we all know that the smartest or most talented students don't always get the best grades. Sometimes life gets in the way of the best of us, or perhaps the professors do not grade us fairly. It's nice to have the insurance of a diploma that is in itself respected by residency directors. You don't have to prove yourself with grades at an unranked Ivy League school.

And yes, your last point corroborates what I've been saying, which is that there is little traditional prestige in dentistry. Ivy League prestige means nothing to patients who don't even think you're a "real doctor." You're not going to be happy in this profession if that's what you're looking for.

A state school that gives you more clinical experience is way more valuable to a program director ( if specializing) than if you went to an Ivy league school.

That's not true, nor does that make sense. Orthodontics has nothing to do with filling cavities or root canal therapy...those programs care more about your performance in didactic courses. Same goes for OMFS...your preclinical medical knowledge will help you more than your prosthodontic skills.

Anyone with half a brain will go to the liest expensive school with a really good supply of clinical patients

The decision is more complicated than that. And I hate to be an a-hole, but it looks like you're missing the half of your brain that knows how to spell "least." You need both halves to go to a top dental school.

 

[personalstatementsbyeric]

Even as an Ivy Leaguer (so to speak), I appreciate your balanced perspective. We're both here to help prospective dental students make the right choice, which will not always be an Ivy League school.

But again, it's a bit misleading to chalk up your experience at one Ivy League school to all three, since they are so different. (I'm 90% sure you're talking about your Harvard interview.) Columbia is most proud of its specialization rates and Harvard is most narrowly focused on academia/research, whereas Penn has a wholly different philosophy and brags about its superior clinical education. You are totally right about UConn administrators comparing the school to Ivies, which I found off-putting when I interviewed there because I think it can march to the beat of its own drum as a legitimate leading institution in its own right. However, you must grant that, despite the match-rate data, UConn officially claims to be committed to producing general dentists first and specialists second.

I do think it's worth mentioning that at Columbia and Harvard, you could effectively be toward the bottom of your class and still match into your preferred OMFS program, which would not be possible at other schools. This is a demonstrable fact. The deans and professors will support your post-grad goals with appropriate recommendation letters regardless of relative academic performance if you pass every course and score highly on the CBSE (or now, the ADAT). It is commonly presumed that if you are accepted to an Ivy, you would be at the top of the class of any other dental school; however, we all know that the smartest or most talented students don't always get the best grades. Sometimes life gets in the way of the best of us, or perhaps the professors do not grade us fairly. It's nice to have the insurance of a diploma that is in itself respected by residency directors. You don't have to prove yourself with grades at an unranked Ivy League school.

And yes, your last point corroborates what I've been saying, which is that there is little traditional prestige in dentistry. Ivy League prestige means nothing to patients who don't even think you're a "real doctor." You're not going to be happy in this profession if that's what you're looking for.


That's not true, nor does that make sense. Orthodontics has nothing to do with filling cavities or root canal therapy...those programs care more about your performance in didactic courses. Same goes for OMFS...your preclinical medical knowledge will help you more than your prosthodontic skills.


The decision is more complicated than that. And I hate to be an a-hole, but it looks like you're missing the half of your brain that knows how to spell "least." You need both halves to go to a top dental school.

Wow, this is spot on

 

[The OMFS]

Even as an Ivy Leaguer ( so to speak), I appreciate your balanced perspective. We're both here to help prospective dental students make the right choice, which will not always be an Ivy League school.

But again, it's a bit misleading to chalk up your experience at one Ivy League school to all three, since they are so different. (I'm 90% sure you're talking about your Harvard interview.) Columbia is most proud of its specialization rates and Harvard is most narrowly focused on academia/research, whereas Penn has a wholly different philosophy and brags about its superior clinical education. You are totally right about UConn administrators comparing the school to Ivies, which I found off-putting when I interviewed there because I think it can march to the beat of its own drum as a legitimate leading institution in its own right. However, you must grant that, despite the match-rate data, UConn officially claims to be committed to producing general dentists first and specialists second.

I do think it's worth mentioning that at Columbia and Harvard, you could effectively be toward the bottom of your class and still match into your preferred OMFS program, which would not be possible at other schools. This is a demonstrable fact. The deans and professors will support your post-grad goals with appropriate recommendation letters regardless of relative academic performance if you pass every course and score highly on the CBSE (or now, the ADAT). It is commonly presumed that if you are accepted to an Ivy, you would be at the top of the class of any other dental school; however, we all know that the smartest or most talented students don't always get the best grades. Sometimes life gets in the way of the best of us, or perhaps the professors do not grade us fairly. It's nice to have the insurance of a diploma that is in itself respected by residency directors. You don't have to prove yourself with grades at an unranked Ivy League school.

And yes, your last point corroborates what I've been saying, which is that there is little traditional prestige in dentistry. Ivy League prestige means nothing to patients who don't even think you're a "real doctor." You're not going to be happy in this profession if that's what you're looking for.


That's not true, nor does that make sense. Orthodontics has nothing to do with filling cavities or root canal therapy...those programs care more about your performance in didactic courses. Same goes for OMFS...your preclinical medical knowledge will help you more than your prosthodontic skills.


The decision is more complicated than that. And I hate to be an a-hole, but it looks like you're missing the half of your brain that knows how to spell "least." You need both halves to go to a top dental school.

Here we go again with another know-it-all dental student. That's all great about Columbia, but please don't be that dingus who acts like a member of CODA and think that you know everything about all the other dental schools. Your comment on Penn is absolutely wrong, so just stop there. The bottom line is that Ivy leagues produce more specialists because they don't teach adequate clinical dentistry. For instance, externs from Ivies start off having worse dentoalveolar skills. Non-Ivies don't get enough medicine in their curriculum and that's a known fact as well. Didactics and high CBSE/ADAT scores are important for matching, but until you are out in the real world, you are completely sheltered and blinded by what's happening in real practice. Clinical skills and understanding general dentistry, even as a specialist, matter a great deal whether that is being able to understand a complex treatment plan or communicate with other specialists.

As far as an ideal OMFS candidate goes, it truly takes a balanced applicant from both spheres to match to top programs and do well in residency. And believe it or not, there has been a significant increase in the number of non-Ivies scoring in the 80s and 90s on CBSE. So again, it's not the end of the world if you decide you want to specialize coming from a non-Ivy dental school.

 

[GoldenDomer11]

ANY other dental school? Give me a break. I got into Harvard; graduated top-5 from my state school while still maintaining a balanced social life. Classmate was accepted to Penn; didn't even graduate top-20 from our state school, despite being a gunner and having little social life. I pursued general dentistry, that student is in a specialty program.

I then completed a Harvard GPR where I had to supervise HSDM students, and many of the other resident dentists came from Penn, Columbia, UCSF, plus a bunch of internationals.

Listen. Ivy League students are no more superior than any other dental student. In my experience, they're far less capable clinically, while perhaps better trained didactically. They seem to be far more immature/sheltered, and lack personality, which, honestly, is essential to being a successful dentist. What they have in common is this ****:


No social graces, a silver spoon up their ass, and an insular, myopic pretense that is often insufferable. I'd take the docs from my state school any day over this lot. And so would my patients.

Implying every single Ivy League student acts or talks like that. This whole thread is plagued by people talking in absolutes. There are going to be poor + rude students at both ivy and state schools. It's the individual that matters, not the institution.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wengerout]

ANY other dental school? Give me a break. I got into Harvard; graduated top-5 from my state school while still maintaining a balanced social life. Classmate was accepted to Penn; didn't even graduate top-20 from our state school, despite being a gunner and having little social life. I pursued general dentistry, that student is in a specialty program.

I then completed a Harvard GPR where I had to supervise HSDM students, and many of the other resident dentists came from Penn, Columbia, UCSF, plus a bunch of internationals.

Listen. Ivy League students are no more superior than any other dental student. In my experience, they're far less capable clinically, while perhaps better trained didactically. They seem to be far more immature/sheltered, and lack personality, which, honestly, is essential to being a successful dentist. What they have in common is this ****:


No social graces, a silver spoon up their ass, and an insular, myopic pretense that is often insufferable. I'd take the docs from my state school any day over this lot. And so would my patients.

So you take issue at him firing back at the original insult, but not the original insult? Seems like some obvious bias to me.

Asides from some very helpful dialog I think all this thread has shown me is that SDN is not the place to find the answer to this question. Thanks to all of you who helped contribute though!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[ncide]

also some food for thought: half of my patients don't even realize you need a college education + 4 years dental school to be a dentist. Trust me, 95% of them won't know or be impressed that you went to an ivy school. Real quotes from real people I have really heard: "how long is the dental school program, 9 months? A year?" and "So, is this a certificate program?" "I had no idea you had to go to school to be a dentist I always thought it was like being a car salesman" "after a few years as an assistant i'll be able to work as a dentist"

This is largely dependent on the education and socioeconomic level of our patients.

Hardly anyone asks where you got your degree.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

This is a great thread. I think everyone in here currently attending school has brought up amazing points I have never considered or thought about, and I think it is very valuable for any pre-dent to see

 

[toothdoctor123]

Here we go again with another know-it-all dental student. That's all great about Columbia, but please don't be that dingus who acts like a member of CODA and think that you know everything about all the other dental schools. Your comment on Penn is absolutely wrong, so just stop there. The bottom line is that Ivy leagues produce more specialists because they don't teach adequate clinical dentistry. For instance, externs from Ivies start off having worse dentoalveolar skills. Non-Ivies don't get enough medicine in their curriculum and that's a known fact as well. Didactics and high CBSE/ADAT scores are important for matching, but until you are out in the real world, you are completely sheltered and blinded by what's happening in real practice. Clinical skills and understanding general dentistry, even as a specialist, matter a great deal whether that is being able to understand a complex treatment plan or communicate with other specialists

As a matter of fact, I've had a number of in-depth conversations with a member of CODA on these topics, and I am trying my best to relay the knowledge I gained to other SDNers. This was a dean from a state school who has little vested interest in the reputations of DDS programs in the Northeast. Regarding Penn, I was just echoing what the dean of admissions told me when I interviewed there and what my friends say who are current Penn students. You may disagree with me, but I am not on these forums to blow hot air.

ANY other dental school? Give me a break. I got into Harvard; graduated top-5 from my state school while still maintaining a balanced social life. Classmate was accepted to Penn; didn't even graduate top-20 from our state school, despite being a gunner and having little social life.

You took that quote out of context and did not read the rest of the paragraph. I am saying the same thing. Some people may not think this system is fair, but if everything else turned out the same way, it obviously would have been in your classmate's best interest to choose a school with a good reputation that does not publish student rankings (say if this were Harvard or Columbia instead of Penn).

No social graces, a silver spoon up their ass, and an insular, myopic pretense that is often insufferable. I'd take the docs from my state school any day over this lot. And so would my patients.

I'm sorry to @Pedodel for making that impulsive remark. I should not have directed my frustration with other opinions on this thread towards him/her. However, I hope that other people who are reading this thread can understand why I've lost my patience as a punching bag for every person with a chip on their shoulder who is disgruntled with the Ivy League. I've even received hate messages from some SDNers (who have since been banned). I am taking time away from my studies to contribute to these forums simply because I enjoy helping pre-dents get through the stressful process of applying to dental school.

If you knew the challenges I overcame to go to dental school, you would be ashamed by that comment. Even if it were true that all Harvard, Columbia, and Penn dentists had the same rude, pretentious personality (in which case, we would have 0 patients), at least no one representing an Ivy League perspective in this thread felt the need to slander other schools. Look through my posts on SDN, and you will see that I treat my colleagues with an equal amount of respect regardless of the institution they attend(ed). I've iterated over and over again that for many dental school applicants, it is perfectly reasonable to decline an Ivy acceptance to choose another school that is a better fit. I feel that I have done my part to promote a balanced discussion about the pros and cons of attending an Ivy League school for the benefit of pre-dental students who are currently weighing their options. It is YOU and a number of other people here who appear to believe that you must walk all over fellow dental professionals through prejudicial attacks in order to somehow prove the legitimacy of your own alma mater (which, by the way, is not the topic of this thread). That is incredibly disturbing and should be a red flag to anyone wondering about the credibility of your opinion.

I'm not perfect, but I would proudly repeat anything I've said on SDN in person. That's why anyone can trust my advice.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

As a matter of fact, I've had a number of in-depth conversations with a member of CODA on these topics, and I am trying my best to relay the knowledge I gained to other SDNers. This was a dean from a state school who has little vested interest in the reputations of DDS programs in the Northeast. Regarding Penn, I was just echoing what the dean of admissions told me when I interviewed there and what my friends say who are current Penn students. You may disagree with me, but I am not on these forums to blow hot air.


You took that quote out of context and did not read the rest of the paragraph. I am saying the same thing. Some people may not think this system is fair, but if everything else turned out the same way, it obviously would have been in your classmate's best interest to choose a school with a good reputation that does not publish student rankings (say if this were Harvard or Columbia instead of Penn).


I'm sorry to @Pedodel for making that impulsive remark. I should not have directed my frustration with other opinions on this thread towards him/her. However, I hope that other people who are reading this thread can understand why I've lost my patience as a punching bag for every person with a chip on their shoulder who is disgruntled with the Ivy League. I've even received hate messages from some SDNers (who have since been banned). I am taking time away from my studies to contribute to these forums simply because I enjoy helping pre-dents get through the stressful process of applying to dental school.

If you knew the challenges I overcame to go to dental school, you would be ashamed by that comment. Even if it were true that all Harvard, Columbia, and Penn dentists had the same rude, pretentious personality (in which case, we would have 0 patients), at least no one representing an Ivy League perspective in this thread felt the need to slander other schools. Look through my posts on SDN, and you will see that I treat my colleagues with an equal amount of respect regardless of the institution they attend(ed). I've iterated over and over again that for many dental school applicants, it is perfectly reasonable to decline an Ivy acceptance to choose another school that is a better fit. I feel that I have done my part to promote a balanced discussion about the pros and cons of attending an Ivy League school for the benefit of pre-dental students who are currently weighing their options. It is YOU and a number of other people here who appear to believe that you must walk all over fellow dental professionals through prejudicial attacks in order to somehow prove the legitimacy of your own alma mater (which, by the way, is not the topic of this thread). That is incredibly disturbing and should be a red flag to anyone wondering about the credibility of your opinion.

I'm not perfect, but I would proudly repeat anything I've said on SDN in person. That's why anyone can trust my advice.

You want to help predents and so do I. I'm trying to prevent them from taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans unnecessarily. Have you payed back student loans? I have. A lot of them and it sucks. Debt is an albatross around your neck that will limit future life choices and opportunities. A prestigious diploma isn't worth wearing that sea bird around your neck for the next 10+ years of your life. Seriously, have you seen an albatross? They're freakin' huge. And I bet it'd be pretty pissed off being chained to you too.

Big Hoss

 

[wengerout]

It is YOU and a number of other people here who appear to believe that you must walk all over fellow dental professionals through prejudicial attacks in order to somehow prove the legitimacy of your own alma mater (which, by the way, is not the topic of this thread). That is incredibly disturbing and should be a red flag to anyone wondering about the credibility of your opinion.

This, couldn't have said it better myself. The fact that half of this thread has been just attacking people who choose to go Ivy's makes it really hard to take people seriously.

You want to help predents and so do I. I'm trying to prevent them from taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans unnecessarily. Have you payed back student loans? I have. A lot of them and it sucks. Debt is an albatross around your neck that will limit future life choices and opportunities. A prestigious diploma isn't worth wearing that sea bird around your neck for the next 10+ years of your life. Seriously, have you seen an albatross? They're freakin' huge. And I bet it'd be pretty pissed off being chained to you too.

Big Hoss

While I don't 100% agree with you on the debt being unnecessary, I will forever appreciate your metaphors

 

[cacajuate]

pg 35 2015-2016 handbook. Looks like all their other stats are about right. Plenty turned down Columbia, but no one declined Harvard. These are the reasons why I fact check what people often say on here, because numbers don't lie, people often do.

Lol dude, I hope your Internet personality doesn't match your real life personality.

 

[personalstatementsbyeric]

Lol dude, I hope your Internet personality doesn't match your real life personality.

Oh it's a match

 

[personalstatementsbyeric]

I was admitted to Harvard for dental school and went to my state school instead (not a "prestigious" state school, either), mainly because my state school was in a more desirable place to me and had a much stronger clinical curriculum. I then ended up matching to Harvard for a residency after dental school. I am very happy I chose my state school for undergrad. Harvard is strong in research and medicine, but their clinical curriculum is, to put it nicely, unsatisfactory. If you plan to specialize or pursue academia/research, then it's great. If you plan to practice general dentistry, one would be much better served at a state school. I liked the curriculum at Columbia when I visited there, but it's super expensive and barely in Manhattan. Penn's clinic looks like a high school gymnasium, and it's extremely expensive; I've never understood why people are enamored with it.

Overall I haven't been very impressed with the HSDM facilities, faculty or curricula. I also haven't been any more impressed by the caliber of student that's come from Harvard, Penn, Columbia, etc versus students from any other dental school, including the schools that get a bad rep on these forums. The adage is certainly true: choose the cheapest school you can get into. Also choose the place you're going to be happiest for four years.

"I also haven't been any more impressed by the caliber of student that's come from Harvard, Penn, Columbia, etc versus students from any other dental school." This statement right here is why I don't pay much attention to comments coming from anonymous posters on the internet. What were you not impressed with? The fact that their test scores were a standard deviation higher in some cases than others applying? I agree, stats aren't everything. How about their unique backgrounds, struggles, and accomplishments. How about their research and other extracurricular endeavors. You not being impressed doesn't matter much, because the vast majority of adcom committees are. Only on SDN do you see someone say "Harvard students are not particularly impressive" LOL

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

"I also haven't been any more impressed by the caliber of student that's come from Harvard, Penn, Columbia, etc versus students from any other dental school." This statement right here is why I don't pay much attention to comments coming from anonymous posters on the internet. What were you not impressed with? The fact that their test scores were a standard deviation higher in some cases than others applying? I agree, stats aren't everything. How about their unique backgrounds, struggles, and accomplishments. How about their research and other extracurricular endeavors. You not being impressed doesn't matter much, because the vast majority of adcom committees are. Only on SDN do you see someone say "Harvard students are not particularly impressive" LOL

You know this isn't the first time i have seen someone state that Ivy league students aren't that impressive, and i kind of agree for a specific reason. We are given this image of prestigious universities hosting the most impressive minds of our generation and future geniuses, the likes of which aren't seen on other campuses, which is completely false.

What Ivy leagues have is simply a higher concentration of the regular intelligent people you find on any university's campus. Several of my classmates from high school went to Ivy schools, and all of them were fairly intelligent people, a lot of people from my high school also went to the institution i attend now, and honestly not very many of them are that intelligent, while a few are very much so. Why am i bringing this up?

People definitely overate their intelligence, and the intelligence of the average individual (myself included), so we assume that people at an elite institution are going to be otherworldly smart, when in reality they are just normal people with above average intelligence. So after meeting them, they feel completely underwhelmed. I personally would have preferred to eb surrounded by the type of intelligence that is all over ivy league schools.

 

[stoopidmonkeycatdog]

Sorry if that didn't really make sense i am in class.

 

[NomadicMaxFac]

To address the OP's original question, I chose to go to HSDM over cheaper alternatives because I came into dental school knowing I wanted to pursue OMFS and I believe that HSDM provides the best opportunity for success. Spending two years at HMS prepares you well for the CBSE while the true pass/fail system makes the experience less stressful.

Despite the fact that HSDM seems to have a spotty rep here on SDN, it does have a remarkable success rate in placing graduates into competitive residencies. If our graduates were as clinically deficient as some posters on here would lead you to believe, one would think program directors would eventually wise up and stop accepting applicants from HSDM. Regardless of how high a school's applicants score on the CBSE and how many papers they publish, if they show up to intern year unprepared to perform in the clinic, I highly doubt a residency director would even continue to interview them.

However, all eight oral surgery applicants from HSDM matched to their first choice programs last year and it has been at least several years since an OMFS applicant has failed to match. For comparison, only 37% of OMFS applicants that obtained at least one interview matched at their first choice program and 38% failed to match anywhere at all. I can't speak to match rates at other schools, but the 135 unmatched OMFS applicants went to dental school somewhere. This does not even account for the number of applicants that did not get interviewed or decided not to apply in the first place because they did not have competitive rankings or CBSE scores.

There is no way to know where those eight would have wound up if they had not attended HSDM. But the extra tuition is worth it for me because I feel that going here has given me the best chance to match successfully even if there is a high probability I would have matched no matter where I attended. I also realize that there are a lot of smart people at every school and cracking the top 20% anywhere is very hard and as is studying for the CBSE without having attended medical school.

I totally agree that if you want to be a general dentist, HSDM is not worth it (in my view, others in my class feel otherwise) and you will be wasting your time in medical school that would be better spent in the dental clinic. But if you want to specialize (particularly in OMFS), you will be set up for success academically and clinically.

 

[Screwtape]

State schools >> Ivy leagues >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-ivy private schools. This is only my opinion. But it's also 100% fact.