For those of you who picked an Ivy League school over your state school, why and do you regret it?

[Big Time Hoosier]

To address the OP's original question, I chose to go to HSDM over cheaper alternatives because I came into dental school knowing I wanted to pursue OMFS and I believe that HSDM provides the best opportunity for success. Spending two years at HMS prepares you well for the CBSE while the true pass/fail system makes the experience less stressful.

Despite the fact that HSDM seems to have a spotty rep here on SDN, it does have a remarkable success rate in placing graduates into competitive residencies. If our graduates were as clinically deficient as some posters on here would lead you to believe, one would think program directors would eventually wise up and stop accepting applicants from HSDM. Regardless of how high a school's applicants score on the CBSE and how many papers they publish, if they show up to intern year unprepared to perform in the clinic, I highly doubt a residency director would even continue to interview them.

However, all eight oral surgery applicants from HSDM matched to their first choice programs last year and it has been at least several years since an OMFS applicant has failed to match. For comparison, only 37% of OMFS applicants that obtained at least one interview matched at their first choice program and 38% failed to match anywhere at all. I can't speak to match rates at other schools, but the 135 unmatched OMFS applicants went to dental school somewhere. This does not even account for the number of applicants that did not get interviewed or decided not to apply in the first place because they did not have competitive rankings or CBSE scores.

There is no way to know where those eight would have wound up if they had not attended HSDM. But the extra tuition is worth it for me because I feel that going here has given me the best chance to match successfully even if there is a high probability I would have matched no matter where I attended. I also realize that there are a lot of smart people at every school and cracking the top 20% anywhere is very hard and as is studying for the CBSE without having attended medical school.

I totally agree that if you want to be a general dentist, HSDM is not worth it (in my view, others in my class feel otherwise) and you will be wasting your time in medical school that would be better spent in the dental clinic. But if you want to specialize (particularly in OMFS), you will be set up for success academically and clinically.

Maybe you can give me some perspective here. I've always wondered why those set on OMFS from the start just don't go to medical school. Medicine offers so many more options as far as surgical specialties and subspecialties go. If you want to be a surgeon, why limit yourself so much by going the OMFS route? You really don't know what you truly like until you actually dive into it at school.

Big Hoss

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[kidsaremypassion]

Maybe you can give me some perspective here. I've always wondered why those set on OMFS from the start just don't go to medical school. Medicine offers so many more options as far as surgical specialties and subspecialties go. If you want to be a surgeon, why limit yourself so much by going the OMFS route? You really don't know what you truly like until you actually dive into it at school.

Big Hoss

I always thought the lifestyle of OMFS, post residency at least, was probably much better than most purely medical surgical specialties. Most general surgeons and even specialized ones, largely practice out of hospitals and have to deal with all the associated politics and bureaucracy that comes with that. OMFS still allows a Doc to shuck 3rds in private practice and make a nice income, if they don't want to deal with the hospital atmosphere.
I may be wrong, just a Peds resident here.

 

[personalstatementsbyeric]

State schools >> Ivy leagues >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-ivy private schools. This is only my opinion. But it's also 100% fact.

I'm lol'ing because statistics would prove otherwise. Perhaps tuition alone, but acceptance rates and stats as well as post graduation outcomes tell a different story.

I'm saying this as someone who is hoping to get into their state school. At least I can admit if I got into one of the ivies, I would snag up that opportunity in a heartbeat. Sad how people on here try to skew info to make themselves feel better.

 

[NomadicMaxFac]

There are two major things that made me choose dental school/OMFS over medical school:
(1) Running a solo private practice is still viable as an oral surgeon, while it is increasingly rare in medical specialties.
(2) OMFS, although competitive, is still less competitive than comparable medical specialties.

In regards to (1), the secret to a good lifestyle (from what I can gather) in a surgical specialty is to be able to do outpatient, single visit surgeries in your own clinic and not in a hospital. This is what makes the two procedure-based specialties on the ROAD to happiness (ophthalmology and derm) great and allows them to maintain control of their lives. I think it is harder for ENT, plastics, and ortho to opt out of working in a hospital, which is one of the reasons most still work ~60 hours a week after finishing residency. I know I want to practice hospital based surgery for at least a bit after residency, but I like knowing I can slow down and work less while maintaining a good income just doing extractions and placing implants in a solo practice setting. As a bonus, four year OMFS programs are a year or two shorter than plastics/ortho/ENT residencies.

(2) A really good score on the CBSE is 80, which is the equivalent to a 225 or so on Step 1; this will make getting into OMFS very likely as long as class rank, letters, etc. are good. However, a 225 is a bad score if you're in medicine and places surgical subspecialties like ortho, plastics, ENT effectively out of reach as they average close to 250 (90 on CBSE) and even puts you below par for IM and GS. Getting ENT, plastics or ortho as a medical student is very hard and there are many, many smart people that have failed to match into these and have had to go with a plan B. I was dating a family practice doctor that had failed to match into ophthalmology and was super bitter about it when I decided to go to dental school; watching someone getting stuck in something they hated definitely made an impression on me. I'll admit to occasionally having days where I have wished I had just gone to medical school and done EM, but overall I am still really excited three years into dental school and think OMFS is kind of a hidden gem among the surgical specialties.

Hope that answers your question!

 

[ncide]

I'd hope that medical students do better on their own boards. Their medical school courses are tailored to prepare them for the exam, unlike dental school, where you have to independently prepare yourself for the CBSE.

 

[kidsaremypassion]

There are two major things that made me choose dental school/OMFS over medical school:
(1) Running a solo private practice is still viable as an oral surgeon, while it is increasingly rare in medical specialties.
(2) OMFS, although competitive, is still less competitive than comparable medical specialties.

In regards to (1), the secret to a good lifestyle (from what I can gather) in a surgical specialty is to be able to do outpatient, single visit surgeries in your own clinic and not in a hospital. This is what makes the two procedure-based specialties on the ROAD to happiness (ophthalmology and derm) great and allows them to maintain control of their lives. I think it is harder for ENT, plastics, and ortho to opt out of working in a hospital, which is one of the reasons most still work ~60 hours a week after finishing residency. I know I want to practice hospital based surgery for at least a bit after residency, but I like knowing I can slow down and work less while maintaining a good income just doing extractions and placing implants in a solo practice setting. As a bonus, four year OMFS programs are a year or two shorter than plastics/ortho/ENT residencies.

(2) A really good score on the CBSE is 80, which is the equivalent to a 225 or so on Step 1; this will make getting into OMFS very likely as long as class rank, letters, etc. are good. However, a 225 is a bad score if you're in medicine and places surgical subspecialties like ortho, plastics, ENT effectively out of reach as they average close to 250 (90 on CBSE) and even puts you below par for IM and GS. Getting ENT, plastics or ortho as a medical student is very hard and there are many, many smart people that have failed to match into these and have had to go with a plan B. I was dating a family practice doctor that had failed to match into ophthalmology and was super bitter about it when I decided to go to dental school; watching someone getting stuck in something they hated definitely made an impression on me. I'll admit to occasionally having days where I have wished I had just gone to medical school and done EM, but overall I am still really excited three years into dental school and think OMFS is kind of a hidden gem among the surgical specialties.

Hope that answers your question!

Stated much better than I ever could have Thanks for enlightening us.

 

[NomadicMaxFac]

I'd hope that medical students do better on their own boards. Their medical school courses are tailored to prepare them for the exam, unlike dental school, where you have to independently prepare yourself for the CBSE.

Absolutely. That is why attending a school that puts its dental students through the didactic portion of medical school is a nice advantage and makes acceptance into OMFS fairly straightforward as long as you put the time in to prep and do the other stuff required for a competitive application.

 

[Incis0r]

if I got into one of the ivies, I would snag up that opportunity in a heartbeat.

I hope you can get into the Ivy of your choice!

 

[Screwtape]

I'm lol'ing because statistics would prove otherwise. Perhaps tuition alone, but acceptance rates and stats as well as post graduation outcomes tell a different story.

I'm saying this as someone who is hoping to get into their state school. At least I can admit if I got into one of the ivies, I would snag up that opportunity in a heartbeat. Sad how people on here try to skew info to make themselves feel better.

What statistics ? Not mine, that's for sure.

 

[schmoob]

It's obvious that the ivy's have the smartest students, the state schools have the coolest students, and the non ivy private schools have the hottest girls because all the smart ones are ugly and they went to the ivy's.

Seriously, this thread has some ridiculous comments. A giant pissing contest, for what? Who cares where you go to school? All that matters is how happy you are financially, and how good of a dentist are you? Do you go to dental school to be a dentist, or not?

I've met some "mediocre" students who have gone to "mediocre" schools. But damn, they knew their stuff when setting up shop. Now they are cleaning up with 4 day weeks, low stress, and a great quality of life. I'm talking all legit too, with completely ethical business and clinical practices.
Trust me, no one is calling them "mediocre" now. And they couldn't care less that they aren't the hottest surgeons in town. They went to dental school, now they're dentists.

 

[Incis0r]

Agreed.

 

[personalstatementsbyeric]

What statistics ? Not mine, that's for sure.

I'm talking averages 21-23 AA is the average at these schools w/ great gpas, life stories, research, and EC's. Like I said, I missed the ball on my DAT, but at least I can admit why I didn't cut it. I'm not sitting here making stuff up putting down schools I couldn't get into

 

[DC206R]

Can't we all just get along?

 

[Incis0r]

Debt is an albatross around your neck that will limit future life choices and opportunities. A prestigious diploma isn't worth wearing that sea bird around your neck for the next 10+ years of your life. Seriously, have you seen an albatross? They're freakin' huge. And I bet it'd be pretty pissed off being chained to you too.

I figured I'd give an image for educational purposes:

 

[Screwtape]

I'm talking averages 21-23 AA is the average at these schools w/ great gpas, life stories, research, and EC's. Like I said, I missed the ball on my DAT, but at least I can admit why I didn't cut it. I'm not sitting here making stuff up putting down schools I couldn't get into

Oh I was talking about likelihood to end up dating a super model. Who cares about entrance stats ? We all gonna be dentists.

 

[Muggsy Bogues]

I'm lol'ing because statistics would prove otherwise. Perhaps tuition alone, but acceptance rates and stats as well as post graduation outcomes tell a different story.

I'm saying this as someone who is hoping to get into their state school. At least I can admit if I got into one of the ivies, I would snag up that opportunity in a heartbeat. Sad how people on here try to skew info to make themselves feel better.

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

There are two major things that made me choose dental school/OMFS over medical school:
(1) Running a solo private practice is still viable as an oral surgeon, while it is increasingly rare in medical specialties.
(2) OMFS, although competitive, is still less competitive than comparable medical specialties.

In regards to (1), the secret to a good lifestyle (from what I can gather) in a surgical specialty is to be able to do outpatient, single visit surgeries in your own clinic and not in a hospital. This is what makes the two procedure-based specialties on the ROAD to happiness (ophthalmology and derm) great and allows them to maintain control of their lives. I think it is harder for ENT, plastics, and ortho to opt out of working in a hospital, which is one of the reasons most still work ~60 hours a week after finishing residency. I know I want to practice hospital based surgery for at least a bit after residency, but I like knowing I can slow down and work less while maintaining a good income just doing extractions and placing implants in a solo practice setting. As a bonus, four year OMFS programs are a year or two shorter than plastics/ortho/ENT residencies.

(2) A really good score on the CBSE is 80, which is the equivalent to a 225 or so on Step 1; this will make getting into OMFS very likely as long as class rank, letters, etc. are good. However, a 225 is a bad score if you're in medicine and places surgical subspecialties like ortho, plastics, ENT effectively out of reach as they average close to 250 (90 on CBSE) and even puts you below par for IM and GS. Getting ENT, plastics or ortho as a medical student is very hard and there are many, many smart people that have failed to match into these and have had to go with a plan B. I was dating a family practice doctor that had failed to match into ophthalmology and was super bitter about it when I decided to go to dental school; watching someone getting stuck in something they hated definitely made an impression on me. I'll admit to occasionally having days where I have wished I had just gone to medical school and done EM, but overall I am still really excited three years into dental school and think OMFS is kind of a hidden gem among the surgical specialties.

Hope that answers your question!

#2 isn't necessarily true and certainly your explanation doesn't support your hypothesis. You're evaluating the performance on a medical test of a dental student with a dental curriculum against a medical student with a medical curriculum. Care to guess what the averages of NBDE would be for medical students relative to dental students?

And I am biased but I very much doubt it is an easier route getting into OMFS than getting into other surgical subspecialties. I only have an n=1 but I can assure you that I would have much rather preferred to pretty much only have to score high on step 1 than score high on my CBSE and graduated at the top of my dental class. Afterall, I did the former during my intern year without any formal medical school training.

EDIT: I see you go to HSDM. None of this even applies to HSDM students. Except I would consider a CBSE score under 80 as bad considering their medical school curriculum. And I look at applicants of HDSM, Columbia, UCONN, etc is a similar light in that regard.

 

[NomadicMaxFac]

Except I would consider a CBSE score under 80 as bad considering their medical school curriculum. And I look at applicants of HDSM, Columbia, UCONN, etc is a similar light in that regard.

I absolutely agree that the route you had to go through to get OMFS is as difficult as they come. My point was only that in my case I was going to spend my first two years in medical school regardless of whether I was going for a DMD or an MD; so from that perspective, a competitive CBSE score was more attainable than a 250 on Step I.

Also agree that below 80 on the CBSE is risky territory for OMFS applicants from HSDM/UCONN/Columbia. I know of at least one program that has a hard minimum of 75 on the CBSE for applicants from medical-based programs. That's why students at HSDM generally re-take if they don't score at least an 80. Fortunately for my classmates that have already taken the exam, no one has required a re-take.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Apparently there's a monument to pay homage to those brave souls who chose an expensive dental school over a more affordable option. #whoknew

Big Hoss

 

[schmoob]

Apparently there's a monument to pay homage to those brave souls who chose an expensive dental school over a more affordable option. #whoknew

View attachment 211378

Big Hoss

Classic Hoss..

 

[wengerout]

Welp in the end it all worked out

 

[schmoob]

So that argument doesn't apply to you anymore
Congratulations, your hard work is paying off!

 

[wengerout]

So that argument doesn't apply to you anymore
Congratulations, your hard work is paying off!

Exactly!! Thank you so much everyone!

 

[jeffk805dent]

Welp in the end I not only got into the Ivy I wanted but got a huge scholarship as well that makes it just as cheap as my state school, so it all worked out

Congrats! That was basically me at my undergrad alma matter (USC) where the scholarship got me covered. Too bad it didn't extend to graduate school, I had to go to UNLV instead for an affordable price.

 

[kidsaremypassion]

Welp in the end I not only got into the Ivy I wanted but got a huge scholarship as well that makes it just as cheap as my state school, so it all worked out

Congrats!!!

 

[wengerout]

Congrats! That was basically me at my undergrad alma matter (USC) where the scholarship got me covered. Too bad it didn't extend to graduate school, I had to go to UNLV instead for an affordable price.

Well hey UNLV is an awesome school as well! Had a really good interview there.

 

[Rikit]

Well hey UNLV is an awesome school as well! Had a really good interview there.

Can you share your interview experience at UNLV (in details if possible)?

 

[wengerout]

Can you share your interview experience at UNLV (in details if possible)?

Pretty standard, give a pretty long powerpoint in the morning, tour, lunch, and one solo interview near the end of the day.

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

I'm talking averages 21-23 AA is the average at these schools w/ great gpas, life stories, research, and EC's. Like I said, I missed the ball on my DAT, but at least I can admit why I didn't cut it. I'm not sitting here making stuff up putting down schools I couldn't get into

I suspect that most of us at UConn, UCLA, Stony Brook, etc got into ivies as well.

 

[yaya97]

Can you share your interview experience at UNLV (in details if possible)?

I just got in there this past cycle, and my day went presentation, tour, lunch, interview with faculty, and then interview with student. Feel free to message with any specific questions.