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Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by lm1106, Nov 6, 2018.
No clue, but I don't think the bouncer was worried about being up to date on that kind of stuff.
Not really. sounds like the bouncer was just being lazy and didn't want the hassle. If it were me no way the guy would have gotten in. I'd have checked FB of the person's ID and everything.
You do you. Life is full of unfair processes, cheating, lying, and backstabbing. That is the real world. I have witnessed it in the business world many times.
Those people who take these steps are the same people that would give you the wrong answers to questions, stab you in the back to have an advantage in school, throw you under the bus if it meant saving their skin, and not be there for you when you need it. Actions speak loudly.
I think we've had this discussion before. If I recall, you believe admissions should be a meritocracy. I still believe admissions should be allowed to prioritize future caregivers for underserved minority communities, similarly to how there are programs aimed at recruiting rural caregivers in flyover areas. It's a pragmatic thing too, not just D I V E R S I T Y for the sake of D I V E R S I T Y.
Not this again....
I thought I read somewhere that employers (and maybe schools too?) can't question an applicants self-identified race or assume an applicant's race if none is provided. If schools reject an applicant, or even worse rescind an acceptance after the fact, because "he/she doesn't look black enough" I can smell a lawsuit coming from a mile away.
If no race is provided in the application then the student can't apply as URM, so that would be irrelevant.
Pretty much. For claiming native american they have a semi-objective way to check, by asking for proof of tribal membership. But if a darker skinned white person wanted to claim they were half black on an application, I would be shocked if a school tried to contest them about it.
One of the other exploits that became common in competitive admissions a decade ago was to use wealthy immigrant members of minority to pad diversity stats, without taking the test score hits that tend to accompany lower SES. You can find some articles with a quick google. Off the top of my head I believe it was about 50% of black Ivy League admits came from other countries.
You can force schools to make sure their diversity percentages look good, but much harder to control how they do it.
You are correct, the question about race/ethnicity is on the app form, but there is no requirement to actually answer it.
Don't think that schools are stupid. If they're going to dismiss someone after being admitted,. there will be tons of documentation to back it up in court.
To follow up efle's comment, schools will look for evidence of commitment to community.
How often do you think sleeping wit the admissions dean happens?
I matched with one on tinder
LMAO how did we get into this topic. Total 180
Honest question then, so what's stopping a white or Asian kid who grew up in a predominantly black area or volunteered in an African American community from claiming URM status and saying that he's 1/2 or 1/4 black? I guess other than hoping that every applicant has a certain level of integrity.
I guess that's more relevant to ORMs with obviously Asian last names.
Nothing. But someone with this type of volunteer activity is the type of non-African American you'll see accepted at the HBCs. If someone is willing to walk the walk, that's admirable.
Also, once you get into fractions beyond 1/2 (like President Obama), then it becomes irrelevant.
Sorry for the off topic question but does it hurt to leave race blank on the app form? Does it affect your application at all??
Nope and nope
This post reminds me of student a few years back who legally changed his last name to a Spanish one; he was Asian.
AAMC actually will investigate and ban you for life for this sort of thing if caught. Schools will also eventually find out and toss you
You should swipe right and report back on your results. For science...
This is what I was getting at with my previous post. Would the AAMC or the school be allowed to question a student's self-identified race based on appearance? Unless they have hard evidence or the guy straight up admits to lying, I don't see how they can prove one way or another.
Let's take for example @H20_Jay 's colleague. Let's say Harvard accepts him and then realizes after school starts that "hey this guy doesn't look African American" and tosses him. Then he claims, whether true or not, that he's actually 1/4 black and sues the school for kicking him out based on an assumption of his race. Is the school going to make him take a DNA test to prove it? That would just be a complete **** show that no school would want to start.
I've heard of it happening to a South Asian guy claiming to be black and to individuals claiming to be hispanic. Didn't go well for them.
I feel like those people must have admitted to it or bragged about it on social media, like most idiots who get caught doing illegal or unethical things. I'd be really surprised if they were kicked out solely on the basis of their appearance not matching their self identified race. That's just asking for a discrimination lawsuit.
It is difficult to place a discrimination lawsuit that is based upon you lying to a document you signed that has legal agreements stating that all information within is correct. They are questioning the veracity of the information provided, which is legitimate. People aren't stupid, particularly those on adcoms. And liars on applications and those that game the system through deception, well, they should have no place in medicine
No school is going to offer a DNA test or verify ethnicity unless the person is Native American (which is still HIGHLY unlikely) which can be verifiable through documents.
First off, I highly doubt the AAMC will ban anyone for something lying over race which is not as black and white (pun intended) as some think. Cheating on the MCAT Thats bannable. Forgery, definitely bannable. Lying about ethnicity, not so clear. Banning is a discrimatory act unless they have undeniable, irrefutable concrete evidence. If they ban someone and they end up being wrong, that is a multimillion dollar lawsuit, as the person could sue for the lost potential earnings as a physician.
The most I see them doing is filing a report.
Based on this, I’m confident the AAMC is scared ****less of lawsuits.The AAMC fear is one of the reasons why schools are delaying their acceptances and making acceptances blind to other medical schools. Proving race/ ethnicity is extremely hard and bothersome. I just read about a Seattle guy who based on a DNA test was 4% African American is now petitioning for minority business grants.
I wholeheartedly agree that liars and deceivers shouldn't be in medicine. I'm just curious about this and trying to "war game" this hypothetical situation for the purpose of discussion.
Let's say the plaintiff's lawyer asks the adcom "why did you initially question the veracity of this applicants racial self-identification, and what evidence did you find that compelled you to expel him?" If the school's answer amounts to "because he doesn't look black" then we're back to my original point that schools can't just assume an applicant's race based on their appearance.
Also, I believe all the documents you sign have the wording of "this information is correct to the best of your knowledge". On top of that, the race question on AMCAS is worded like "what race/ethnicity do you self identify as". IANAL, but I feel that it's difficult to prove, even in a civil case, that someone knowingly and maliciously lied about their own self-identity which can be completely subjective. Plus, family histories can be incomplete or non-existent, so the only thing you have is the person's word.
They are pretty clear, lying on the application is grounds for banning, period. They do it for everything from falsified transcripts to fabricated volunteering information, they'll certainly do it for race. If you would like I could contact someone I know at AMCAS, I could provide you with a definitive answer within days instead of your conjecture. Prior cases have resulted in being banned from the AMCAS in the same manner as any other fabrication once reported, and I highly doubt that policy has changed. Generally no one will waste the money attempting to sue (I know no one that has this far for this reason), as chances are they will lose and then their name will forever be publicly attached to what they had done with a simple Google search, which does not bode well for their future in any industry, let alone medicine. I guess what it really comes down to is
Yes, lying is lying. I don’t like liars nor do I support what some may do to get ahead. What I’m saying is how do you prove lying about race or ethnicity?
That’s a tricky line to cross and I doubt the AAMC will use the resource to investigate. The falsified transcripts and volunteering hours are easy to prove. How race on the other hand is not and could lead to backlash if the person can present a reasonable argument.
Sure reach out to said person and confirn how they deal with fabrications about race/ethnicity.
It wouldn't matter, ultimately. It would take years to sort put while said wannabe medical student was banned from training. And when they were done, no residency would touch them even if they were successful (which I doubt) and managed to make it through medical school, as a simple Google search would dig up their past as a deceptive gamer of the system that no PD would want in their program. Basically your life is ruined either way at that point
It could but it is unlikely to be a problem, as things like this are usually reported to them by schools and thus the reporting school would take the fall. It really doesn't matter though. It has happened and your predictions are incorrect as to the outcome, the actual cases resulted in students being banned and no litigation
Which actual cases are you talking about??
Where’s your proof?
Judging by my colleague who already has an acceptance and a shot st Harvard med, he is going to get away with it.
Like a poster earlier said, mindy khalem brother did it and got away with it. He withdrew from medical on his own volition.
Have you ever thought that your friend, who lied about his race on an app form, is lying about his acceptance?????
Just because no one has sued in the past, doesn't mean it can't happen successfully in the future especially with race and affirmative action becoming a hot topic again in recent years. I'd be willing to bet that the very few students who got banned a) shot themselves in the foot by admitting that they lied and/or b) don't have the money for a good lawyer. All it takes is one spiteful applicant who covered his tracks well and has rich lawyer parents to cause a real problem.
Or even lying that he lied about his race. He’s a liar.
One was a girl that was a part of the premed community at an ex of mine's big state school. She lied about being Hispanic all throughout her app, an interviewer started an interview in Spanish, and her life sort of fell apart from there. She ended up reported for obvious falsification and ended up working in public relations last I heard. There were a couple of interesting cases on SDN over the years, but those details are more foreign to me
Oh I think it would be delightful for someone to try. I'm looking to do admissions in a couple of years and would love to be the one that makes this happen. By selecting the "right" candidate to single out and destroy, of course
And then this gets to the liberal media who finds out that a non-minority individual posed as a disenfranchised minority to game the system. Who do you think the media is realistically going to go after?
This is the crux of the issue I'm trying to get at. How would you select a candidate to destroy? Sure, there are obvious cases like the "Hispanic" girl you mentioned who are terrible liars. I'm assuming she also claimed to be able to speak Spanish fluently, which is a dumb lie because it's easily verifiable. Hispanic heritage doesn't necessarily equal Spanish speaking, so it would have been unethical to just assume she spoke fluent Spanish simply due to Hispanic descent.
For example, you interview a blonde haired, blue eyed kid who claims to be half black and therefore URM. Let's say he even grew up in an African American neighborhood. Do you report him to AAMC just based on his appearance? What if he actually is half black and just doesn't look like it? How do you justify and prove it one way or another? I think this presents a very murky grey area.
As far as media reaction goes, see Senator Warren or Mindy Kaling's brother. Anyway it doesn't really matter what the media thinks. What matters is what the judge/jury thinks.
The only way is direct proof or the interviewers can make a judgement call based on what they hear.
I mean, otherwise, this is all circumstantial.
You report to the AAMC and state that "there are concerns that this individual may have lied on their application regarding their status as URM" and allow them to run the investigation. If you're really that suspicious at the interview you can ask subtle questions in regards to their background and gauge
Lol, you're surprised the liberal media isn't attacking one of the most prominent liberal figures in the country? Terrible example, but you can look at how the conservative sources reported on it and get back to me about media reaction. No one cared about Kaling's brother because he wasn't caught and dropped out. He was essentially a nobody to the world like most docs in the eyes of the media.
I also just assumed you were talking about the media because you said "race and affirmative action becoming a hot topic again in recent years." If we're talking about a case with a judge, whether race or a.a. is " a hot topic" is irrelevant as the judge should be impartial regardless. If you're talking about jury involvement, then media perspective is relevant as media will dictate attitudes and perspectives of idiot America, aka the jurors.
Either way, if the individual was actually lying about their race and they try to sue, they'd be fully opening their life up to investigations. You really think when that comes out anyone would be defending them?
That again goes back to my original impression that schools/employers can't challenge a potential candidate's ethnic self-identity. I can't find the specific law or regulation, but I think it was something that was either proposed or maybe even passed into law. Maybe it just affects employers and not schools. Either way it's hard for AAMC to "prove" someone's self-identity, with self identity being the key word. I still haven't heard any suggestions on a reliable way to prove or refute that in an investigation. Asking for background may expose holes if they claim to be involved in the ethnic community. However, if they just claim to be part black/Hispanic, asking questions about their background may not shed any additional light.
You're right, I kinda just threw out two names that I thought of. I do believe the media would have a mixed reaction to something like this, just like there are mixed reactions to the ongoing Harvard case. You also note that Kaling's brother wasn't caught. If we're being honest, that's probably what happens most of the time when someone misrepresents their race/ethnicity.
My eariler comment about race in education becoming a hot topic was more suggesting that perhaps an increasing amount of people are going to try to "game" the system, and more people might start to sue for racial discrimination (i.e. affirmative action cases at Harvard and the Texas school from a few years ago). I wasn't thinking about the media at all. You're right that a judge and jury should be impartial regardless of media and public opinion.
I'm sure people would come out to defend a liar, if they think the liar's actions are justified. Please note that I absolutely do not believe that lying in this case is ethical or justified, just that some people might depending on how they feel about race-conscious admissions policies.
Idk, look at what happened with Rachel Dolezal. She got skewered by the media, lost her job and other positions, and basically became homeless and a national pariah. She also had previously tried to sue Howard University and lost. She had written about "her African American ancestors" in her PS and later sued when the school denied her race-based scholarships. Idk how Howard determined her race at the time, but I'm sure there are probably legal standards to this just as there are standards as to what actually qualifies as URM in the AAMC guidelines.
I think it comes down to how long he'd been planning it. Does his MCAT registration say he's URM, or white? How about his college enrollment paperwork? There is bound to be a paper trail of the deception unless he'd had it in mind since he was a high schooler. Easy to get away with if the school doesn't care much. But if someone reports you with text/email evidence and the AAMC wants to investigate, they could probably find enough to feel safe banning them from applying to MD school.
I'd agree there might be more "gaming the system" in coming years. I read an interesting piece in WSJ about a rise in test disability applications and additional time for SAT/ACT that this reminds me of. Apparently there was a policy change from the College Board to no longer include a note about altered testing circumstances, and as a result there was a huge spike in applications for accommodations. At some elite undergrads (examples they gave included Pomona, Amherst, and Stanford) 20-25% of incoming students now have "a disability" and ~95% of applications for extra time get approval from the College Board. There is not a chance in hell that 25% of high achieving 17 year olds have ADHD or related legitimate issues. They've just all figured out that the College Board would rather turn a blind eye to abuse of the system than risk lawsuits, so here we are with "if you aren't cheating you aren't trying" becoming the norm for competitive admissions many years before the med school stage.
It'll only get worse from here!
Rochester takes photographs of applicants at the interview for reference so I don’t see how Rochester passed over a discrepency between race and the photo of the applicant
If he was Italian or Spanish or some darker skinned Caucasian background, they probably just assumed he was half black. Can't exactly call the applicant up and ask them to explain why they are so white-passing
This is already happening in the Asian community. I read an article talking about how starting in high school, they're encouraged to hide or misrepresent their race to mitigate any potential disadvantages.
I'm sure tons of people are getting away with it as long as they're smart about their deception and don't tell anyone what they're doing. It's only the ones who get caught that you hear about.
Huh, that's interesting but not surprising at all unfortunately. If you create a loophole people will exploit it.
Thanks. This is what I was trying to allude to.
Honestly I have to say that I am shook by some of these stories. I would never have the nerve to lie about my race, even though some people have told me that I look hispanic. The guilt would just eat at me until I exploded...for whatever reason, lying is so much harder as you get older. Now I feel bad about lying when my family conversationally asks me whether I had dinner
I know of a few kids who did lie about ECs though, and they're both in medical school, so...