Friend lied on application?

[PeleHonuaMea]

But if racial diversity can be achieved with focusing on SES instead of race and colleges don’t want to do that, then that highlights a possible ulterior motive. Plus a large chunk of this country is from low SES backgrounds, so if anything colleges should be focused on mirroring that too

So medical schools should accommodate the racial bias of patients by introducing their own racial bias in the admissions process?

Then that issue Is something you need to take up with your state reps. Inequality compounds overtime. College is not the time to be tackling this inequality for the first time. Your state/city have been ripping you off by underfunding your schools and refusing to instill programs to help you all get resources to succeed. Giving colleges the power to be “equalizers” is the government’s way of saying ‘we don’t want to deal with these people and their problems’ which is wrong and right now they’re getting away with it

Lol! What a concept!! Why didn't anyone think of that before? .

One thing I always want others to consider is that it may not always be opportunity that is the issue. Many times it may just be the culture you grow up in and no amount of governmental interference is gonna fix that until the people in those cultures decide they want to change.

opportunities do not come easy to those growing up in the "cultures" you're alluding to. Smh.

I genuinely hope you guys do not feel the same when you're treating patients from those same "cultural" groups . If you think patients cant pick up on those subtle cues... Think again. It is these views and this attitude that make some patients trust only those physicians similar to them . Compassion and empathy goes a long way.

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[medschoolzombie]

Lol! What a concept!! Why didn't anyone think of that before? .

Thinking about it is not enough. One of the big issues in this country is accountability. People are happy to complain about daily struggles but don’t hold the people who they elect accountable for their actions and promises to make their lives better. Taking action

opportunities do not come easy to those growing up in the "cultures" you're alluding to. Smh.

I genuinely hope you guys do not feel the same when you're treating patients from those same "cultural" groups . If you think patients cant pick up on those subtle cues... Think again. It is these views and this attitude that make some patients trust only those physicians similar to them . Compassion and empathy goes a long way.

Not everyone in these cultures takes these opportunities or is aware of them either.

I doubt anybody tries to treat people differently based on their race or culture. Cultural competence is very important in this field. Everyone who goes into this field understand that and wants to branch out and understand different cultures to help those patients. By saying “only those that are from x culture can help x patients” it invalidates these efforts in my opinion

 

[dr_kateb]

Artificially increasing the number of a certain race in med school admissions and in admissions in general isn't going to fix racial bias. It actually perpetuates them and people see them as a diversity hire and are only there because of their race.

 

[TJinDaHouse]

Maybe racist ppl. Plenty of good minority Doctors. Just cuz you help them get in, doesn't mean that how they made it all the way through

 

[mph876]

Artificially increasing the number of a certain race in med school admissions and in admissions in general isn't going to fix racial bias. It actually perpetuates them and people see them as a diversity hire and are only there because of their race.

Perhaps because you're viewing them as "diversity hires" instead of humans just as, or more, qualified than you are as they also successfully completed medical school and residency, who just happen to be minorities.

 

[TJinDaHouse]

Yes. It different if they think black ppl are just doctors because they let them be doctors. They still had to work hard to get where they is.

I don't blame white rich ppl that want a rich white doctor. They don't think some poor negro from the hood understand them (they thoughts).

I don't have nothing against a white doctor, but how he know what our lifestyle is like? How he gonna connect to me and make me see things his way?

 

[dr_kateb]

Perhaps because you're viewing them as "diversity hires" instead of humans just as, or more, qualified than you are as they also successfully completed medical school and residency, who just happen to be minorities.

Lol nope. I’m not white first of all, and if they were more qualified none of this would be an issue. The whole problem is that many groups get admitted with much lower stats than other groups. SDN makes the whole process seem “holistic” when it’s 2 numbers that largely determine everything, and then the race box. Put the race card back in the deck.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Lol nope. I’m not white first of all, and if they were more qualified none of this would be an issue. The whole problem is that many groups get admitted with much lower stats than other groups. SDN makes the whole process seem “holistic” when it’s 2 numbers that largely determine everything, and then the race box. Put the race card back in the deck.

What do you mean by "more qualified"?

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[sinigang14]

What do you mean by "more qualified"?

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[RNtoMD87]

I see we're still squabbling about whether racism is okay in the 21st century. Didn't miss anything.

 

[mph876]

Lol nope. I’m not white first of all, and if they were more qualified none of this would be an issue. The whole problem is that many groups get admitted with much lower stats than other groups. SDN makes the whole process seem “holistic” when it’s 2 numbers that largely determine everything, and then the race box. Put the race card back in the deck.

Funny because I never asked or assumed you were white as I don't think it's a minority vs. majority "fight", and ignorance isn't tied to any one group, unfortunately. That alone lets me know you don't understand the nuances of the situation. I also don't get how you are automatically assuming they're all less qualified as GPA is so much more than just qualification. However, it is frankly more disappointing you are a minority and not understanding these issues.

In addition, the "race card" is already out of the deck. It's out since the day most minority students begin school and there's research to back it up. Third-fourth grade is considered the benchmark for future student success. My research on campus, in addition to biology, focuses on experiences at PWI universities that disenfranchise and hamper minority, specifically black and latino (because they're most affected), students. There's different experiences between "model minority" groups and non- groups, those who physically appear more as a minority, and international students. All of this feeds directly into why stats are potentially lower, same as pre-college research and conclusions. There are literally thousands of peer-reviewed articles that explain why minority students don't thrive in PWI settings, the majority of which pre-med minority students come from not. I would really recommend you read some. Quick example, URM's are the highest per capita of first-gen students which are the main group of students that work on campus. If you're putting in 25+ hours a week, there goes your study time. Professors won't answer your questions as thoroughly due to their assumptions about you. If you're privileged enough to not be a part of a minority group that is constantly questioned, disenfranchised on campus, and belittled, then congratulations. However, that does not mean your experience accounts for all.

If somehow putting down already marginalized students makes you feel better about yourself, then maybe you should address that core issue. Either way, it doesn't seem as though you want to learn, so I'm finished. If there's anyone actually interested in learning more on the subject, please PM me! I love to talk about the research.

 

[TJinDaHouse]

Funny because I never asked or assumed you were white as I don't think it's a minority vs. majority "fight", and ignorance isn't tied to any one group, unfortunately. That alone lets me know you don't understand the nuances of the situation. I also don't get how you are automatically assuming they're all less qualified as GPA is so much more than just qualification. However, it is frankly more disappointing you are a minority and not understanding these issues.

In addition, the "race card" is already out of the deck. It's out since the day most minority students begin school and there's research to back it up. Third-fourth grade is considered the benchmark for future student success. My research on campus, in addition to biology, focuses on experiences at PWI universities that disenfranchise and hamper minority, specifically black and latino (because they're most affected), students. There's different experiences between "model minority" groups and non- groups, those who physically appear more as a minority, and international students. All of this feeds directly into why stats are potentially lower, same as pre-college research and conclusions. There are literally thousands of peer-reviewed articles that explain why minority students don't thrive in PWI settings, the majority of which pre-med minority students come from not. I would really recommend you read some. Quick example, URM's are the highest per capita of first-gen students which are the main group of students that work on campus. If you're putting in 25+ hours a week, there goes your study time. Professors won't answer your questions as thoroughly due to their assumptions about you. If you're privileged enough to not be a part of a minority group that is constantly questioned, disenfranchised on campus, and belittled, then congratulations. However, that does not mean your experience accounts for all.

If somehow putting down already marginalized students makes you feel better about yourself, then maybe you should address that core issue. Either way, it doesn't seem as though you want to learn, so I'm finished. If there's anyone actually interested in learning more on the subject, please PM me! I love to talk about the research.

It just like my middle school basketball coach said- we in this together. We gotta support other brothers. No one gonna look after us but us.

 

[957367]

Funny because I never asked or assumed you were white as I don't think it's a minority vs. majority "fight", and ignorance isn't tied to any one group, unfortunately. That alone lets me know you don't understand the nuances of the situation. I also don't get how you are automatically assuming they're all less qualified as GPA is so much more than just qualification. However, it is frankly more disappointing you are a minority and not understanding these issues.

Of course GPA is a qualification. If it wasn't why do schools consider GPA and MCAT among the most important factors when looking at applicants? Sure, someone with lower stats can certainly be qualified to be a doctor, but it would be naive to assume that all doctors are equally qualified and capable coming out of school.

In addition, the "race card" is already out of the deck. It's out since the day most minority students begin school and there's research to back it up. Third-fourth grade is considered the benchmark for future student success. My research on campus, in addition to biology, focuses on experiences at PWI universities that disenfranchise and hamper minority, specifically black and latino (because they're most affected), students. There's different experiences between "model minority" groups and non- groups, those who physically appear more as a minority, and international students. All of this feeds directly into why stats are potentially lower, same as pre-college research and conclusions. There are literally thousands of peer-reviewed articles that explain why minority students don't thrive in PWI settings, the majority of which pre-med minority students come from not. I would really recommend you read some. Quick example, URM's are the highest per capita of first-gen students which are the main group of students that work on campus. If you're putting in 25+ hours a week, there goes your study time. Professors won't answer your questions as thoroughly due to their assumptions about you. If you're privileged enough to not be a part of a minority group that is constantly questioned, disenfranchised on campus, and belittled, then congratulations. However, that does not mean your experience accounts for all.

You assume that everyone in one racial group shares similar experiences. You are arguing that since many black/Latino kids face more difficulty in the education system growing up, which is true, all URMs should be given a bonus in college admissions regardless of whether they as individuals experienced any of those hardships. Under your system of generalizations, a black kid from a wealthy suburb would still have an advantage over an Asian kid from the inner city solely due to their difference in skin color. I think that is morally reprehensible. Most of the issues you cited can likely be attributed to socioeconomic status rather than race. That can be addressed with SES based affirmative action without taking race into consideration at all, which most people, myself included, would support.

 

[DontTradOnMe]

Hello “the disparity in life outcomes observable in minority groups can be entirely attributed to socioeconomic status” my old friend...

Time to lock a thread again...

 

[medschoolzombie]

Hello “the disparity in life outcomes observable in minority groups can be entirely attributed to socioeconomic status” my old friend...

Time to lock a thread again...

This is really what it comes down to at the end of the day which is why it's always the last argument. Money can literally fix most of the URM problems and the lack of it is what's causing a lot of it according to literally everyone here on both sides. Everyone here should be gung ho about an SES based admission over a race based on since it'll give the same result but they're not

 

[DrStephenStrange]

This is really what it comes down to at the end of the day which is why it's always the last argument. Money can literally fix most of the URM problems and the lack of it is what's causing a lot of it according to literally everyone here on both sides. Everyone here should be gung ho about an SES based admission over a race based on since it'll give the same result but they're not

The potential problems with this system is that you might end up with a class made of entirely of people of low SES (wouldn't that be discriminatory to wealthy kids?). Also you would have to set the numbers what classifies someone to a low SES. For example what if you grew up in a poor family, but by the time you're applying for med school your family have already walked up the socioeconomic ladder, would you still be considered low SES (That would be me, I grew up in Haiti in a poor family most of my life (19 years), but now after moving here my parents are making so much I wasn't considered for grants in undergrad, I had to ride all undergrad on student loans).

Edit: And don't get me wrong I actually like the idea of it being SES based, but we also have to consider these challenges.

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[DontTradOnMe]

This is really what it comes down to at the end of the day which is why it's always the last argument. Money can literally fix most of the URM problems and the lack of it is what's causing a lot of it according to literally everyone here on both sides. Everyone here should be gung ho about an SES based admission over a race based on since it'll give the same result but they're not

I very much disagree, actually. Implicit bias is very real, even for those who don’t consciously hold racist beliefs. People are treated differently based on what they look like, their names, etc., and there is no shortage of research showing this.

 

[957367]

I very much disagree, actually. Implicit bias is very real, even for those who don’t consciously hold racist beliefs. People are treated differently based on what they look like, their names, etc., and there is no shortage of research showing this.

Humans will always have implicit bias. Unless we can control people's minds that will never change. It seems your solution to there being unconscious bias in the world is to systemically implement intentional bias against other groups in college admissions and job hiring.

 

[mph876]

Hello “the disparity in life outcomes observable in minority groups can be entirely attributed to socioeconomic status” my old friend...

Time to lock a thread again...

Coincidentally I'm doing a presentation on this fallacy currently so I have an article on hand. It talks about how across all income levels this doesn't play out. General conclusions: comparable success rates between black women and other groups, worse for black men. Most important factor that closes this gap is growing up in an area with lower racial bias (shocking) and potentially two-parent households although there's less data to support this. I've pasted the link below in case you're interested and in case it gets removed it's
Race and Economic Opportunity in the United States: An Intergenerational Perspective by Raj Chetty et al.


https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/race_paper.pdf

This is really what it comes down to at the end of the day which is why it's always the last argument. Money can literally fix most of the URM problems and the lack of it is what's causing a lot of it according to literally everyone here on both sides. Everyone here should be gung ho about an SES based admission over a race based on since it'll give the same result but they're not

Take a look at the paper above. It unfortunately doesn't address the racial bias which prevents social mobility. In addition, whatALso, you're still missing that there's bias across social group. I come from an upper middle class family, however that means nothing when I'm on campus trying to find opportunities to improve my application, ask for instruction from professors, etc. No one looks at me and knows what socialeconomic group I belong to in order to potentially discriminate against me. I'd be on board for SES based action also. In fact, I think current policies should extend more to account for lower SES status. But, if you only address this, you're missing a big chunk of other factors which are according to research, more important and determinative of outcome. I'm also not sure you truly understand URM issues if you think money can fix them.

I very much disagree, actually. Implicit bias is very real, even for those who don’t consciously hold racist beliefs. People are treated differently based on what they look like, their names, etc., and there is no shortage of research showing this.

I've created about three different workshops/presentations on this solely and I wish people understood how important it is. Funnily enough, it's even played out in this thread at least 5 times I've counted.

 

[Dr.Barker&Mr.Scootches]

One was a girl that was a part of the premed community at an ex of mine's big state school. She lied about being Hispanic all throughout her app, an interviewer started an interview in Spanish, and her life sort of fell apart from there. She ended up reported for obvious falsification and ended up working in public relations last I heard. There were a couple of interesting cases on SDN over the years, but those details are more foreign to me

I feel like that might be a big problem down the line. There are plenty of Hispanics that can't speak Spanish. I'm not sure if that's a good indication of a person's race.

 

[mph876]

Humans will always have implicit bias. Unless we can control people's minds that will never change. It seems your solution to there being unconscious bias in the world is to systemically implement intentional bias against other groups in college admissions and job hiring.

You're looking at this backwards and forgetting equity vs. equality and the relationship between each. Think of a patient. If we know they have another co-morbidity which risks their health and prevents fixing the primary issue, you can't just ignore it. You do the best you can to fix it so then you can fix the primary issue. Unfortunately here, it's extremely difficult to fix the primary issue (implicit bias) so we have to account for the co-morbidity (results of implicit bias in the form of thoughts about the person, diminished investment in the person, harsher critique) and treat it. The best way we know how to treat it is to say there's an issue, let's keep this in mind that this candidate may be viewed through a jaded lens.

Also, I think you missed my point in GPA. It is of course a qualification, however it is not only the summary of intelligence or even work ethic. There's a multitude of factors that go into what is a person's GPA. Comparing an Asian student from the inner city vs. a black student from the suburbs also has nuances. It's quite possible the Asian student has a lower college entrance score (and again affirmative action and universities look at these factors), but once they're in college no one knows that about them and it's not the stereotype. While the opportunity gap may be present, there won't be racial outcomes as pronounced for other minority groups.

 

[dr_kateb]

I also don't get how you are automatically assuming they're all less qualified as GPA is so much more than just qualification.

Yeah. Pretty much. MCAT>GPA, everything else combined. Doesn't matter the backstory. If you can't get good enough grades in undergrad, an acceptance to med school isn't going to suddenly make their situation suddenly better and they will do better in medical school.

In addition, the "race card" is already out of the deck. It's out since the day most minority students begin school and there's research to back it up. Third-fourth grade is considered the benchmark for future student success. My research on campus, in addition to biology, focuses on experiences at PWI universities that disenfranchise and hamper minority, specifically black and latino (because they're most affected), students. There's different experiences between "model minority" groups and non- groups, those who physically appear more as a minority, and international students. All of this feeds directly into why stats are potentially lower, same as pre-college research and conclusions. There are literally thousands of peer-reviewed articles that explain why minority students don't thrive in PWI settings, the majority of which pre-med minority students come from not. I would really recommend you read some. Quick example, URM's are the highest per capita of first-gen students which are the main group of students that work on campus. If you're putting in 25+ hours a week, there goes your study time. Professors won't answer your questions as thoroughly due to their assumptions about you. If you're privileged enough to not be a part of a minority group that is constantly questioned, disenfranchised on campus, and belittled, then congratulations. However, that does not mean your experience accounts for all.

Cool story. The United States is predominantly white. And what's your point? Minorities have had a presumably harder upbringing, therefore they deserve an acceptance more than someone who just happens to not be a minority?

If somehow putting down already marginalized students makes you feel better about yourself, then maybe you should address that core issue. Either way, it doesn't seem as though you want to learn, so I'm finished. If there's anyone actually interested in learning more on the subject, please PM me! I love to talk about the research.

Do you actually have a good reason for why racial discrimination in admissions is okay or are you just going to call everyone that disagrees a racist?

 

[mph876]

Yeah. Pretty much. MCAT>GPA, everything else combined.



Cool story. The United States is predominantly white. And what's your point? Minorities have had a presumably harder upbringing, therefore they deserve an acceptance more than someone who just happens to not be a minority?



Do you actually have a good reason for why racial discrimination in admissions is okay or are you just going to call everyone that disagrees a racist?

1.You're missing what I'm saying. GPA isn't a standardized measure and we know other factors that go into it–availability of professors, social relationships, stresses surrounding school or even just mere existence.

2. While it is due in part to upbringing, you're missing that it doesn't stop there. Minority experiences on campus, controlling for every other factor, are due in large part to race and bias. Professors replying to emails, trying to start study groups, advisors giving adequate thought to students. Implicit bias winds around almost every factor. These factors decrease minority success in university in the context of GPA, graduation rates, retention rate, LORs, etc. No one deserves anything more than another, I'm looking at why we statistically see differences in between racial groups all accounted for in research. These are the determining factors for entrance into medical school-GPA, MCAT, LORs. If minority students can't reach the top floor due to other factors, you can't expect them to (or maybe a small group will). I could talk about the history of standardized testing and how it was formed in part on racial discriminatory practices, but I also don't know of an article concerning MCAT specifically, only ACT/SAT. However, I would assume the sentiment carries.

3. See above in point 2 and I see what you're trying to provoke, but you're unfortunately not going to get that satisfaction. I'm not a reactionary person and I have a thorough understanding of these issues. I haven't said anything ill of those who disagree, because most of all, they don't understand. And unfortunately, that's why we get discussions like this because the history of what we learn that shapes our opinions and thoughts, is extremely narrow and "written (or at least what is popularized) by the victor" so to say. We know that students of racial minorities have a different, negative experience due to race when controlled for everything else. So what do we have to do to go against that? Look at race and understand that these students don't and more importantly can't have the same experience as "model minority", majority, or other non-marginalized groups. If we ever reach the day where race doesn't have an impact on thoughts towards a person, then fantastic we don't need race based affirmative action. Until then, we're stuck trying to equalize issues. I understand that unless you're a part of these groups you can't understand what occurs daily, but please at least try to learn.

 

[Stagg737]

Idk why I'm responding, but this needs to be addressed.

I don't blame white rich ppl that want a rich white doctor. They don't think some poor negro from the hood understand them (they thoughts).

BS. You'd call them racist all day, and even if you don't almost everyone else does. When a white patient wants a white doctor they're called racist. When a black patient wants a black doctor, it's "so they can relate" and I saw that double standard all the time when I worked at a VA hospital in the south. Either they're all racists or they all just want someone to relate to (or both). If they're all racists, then I'm fine with calling that out. Let's not be ignorant and pretend like there's no double standard though.

I don't have nothing against a white doctor, but how he know what our lifestyle is like? How he gonna connect to me and make me see things his way?

So you're assuming that just because a doctor is white means they didn't come from poverty or that they can't relate? Because I went to college with a fairly large number of them as well. (Eta: "them" being white kids who grew up in poverty in largely black or Hispanic communities).

Additionally, I don't understand why patients are overly concerned with their docs being able to relate to them. I've been a patient and had major surgery done on me. I didn't gaf about being able to relate to my docs. I just wanted to know they were good at their job and were going to treat me properly. Yes, I realize that being able to trust them is part of that, but people are stupid and fail to realize that almost everyone is a horrible judge of character. Especially when you only interact with someone minimally (and there is a lot of research in this field).

It just like my middle school basketball coach said- we in this together. We gotta support other brothers. No one gonna look after us but us.

Again, BS. Affirmative action shows that there's an entire government supposedly trying to look after "you". There are hundreds of millions in minority scholarships and grants, subsidized programs, charities, and dozens of other instances which attempt to make things more equal. The fact that we're even talking about URMs having admissions advantages in this thread only supports that. Of course inequality is still a problem, but acting like no one is helping or trying to is just plain wrong. Again, don't be ignorant.

I very much disagree, actually. Implicit bias is very real, even for those who don’t consciously hold racist beliefs. People are treated differently based on what they look like, their names, etc., and there is no shortage of research showing this.

If you can provide any decent research on the name thing I'd be interested. Most of the research I've seen on it is so flawed it shouldn't even be called research. The most popular study that everyone loves to site (where they sent the same resumes to with different names to employers) has been torn apart so many times idk how people still take it seriously.

 

[Stagg737]

Professors replying to emails, trying to start study groups, advisors giving adequate thought to students. Implicit bias winds around almost every factor. These factors decrease minority success in university in the context of GPA, graduation rates, retention rate, LORs, etc.

Again, do you have actual objective data on this or are these just assumptions made based on observational studies with subjective interpretations?

 

[957367]

You're looking at this backwards and forgetting equity vs. equality and the relationship between each. Think of a patient. If we know they have another co-morbidity which risks their health and prevents fixing the primary issue, you can't just ignore it. You do the best you can to fix it so then you can fix the primary issue. Unfortunately here, it's extremely difficult to fix the primary issue (implicit bias) so we have to account for the co-morbidity (results of implicit bias in the form of thoughts about the person, diminished investment in the person, harsher critique) and treat it. The best way we know how to treat it is to say there's an issue, let's keep this in mind that this candidate may be viewed through a jaded lens.

This analogy only works if you think college admissions is not a zero sum game. There is a set amount of spots in each class, so if you give one group of applicants a bonus, you have to suppress another group. We can agree that implicit bias is out there and extremely difficult to fix. We just disagree on the ideal solution. I think the better solution would be to start improving things from the bottom up instead of from the top down, starting with improving educational opportunities in poor urban areas.

Also, I think you missed my point in GPA. It is of course a qualification, however it is not only the summary of intelligence or even work ethic. There's a multitude of factors that go into what is a person's GPA. Comparing an Asian student from the inner city vs. a black student from the suburbs also has nuances. It's quite possible the Asian student has a lower college entrance score (and again affirmative action and universities look at these factors), but once they're in college no one knows that about them and it's not the stereotype. While the opportunity gap may be present, there won't be racial outcomes as pronounced for other minority groups.

I don't think race based affirmative action would ever benefit an Asian kid over a black kid regardless of their circumstances. Any SES affirmative action that the Asian kid would receive would be canceled out by race. That's just not right. Also, I thought the whole point of affirmative action was to close the opportunity gap. What do stereotypes have to do with success in college?

 

[957367]

Again, do you have actual objective data on this or are these just assumptions made based on observational studies with subjective interpretations?

+1. I would love to see objective evidence that college faculty, probably the most left-leaning group of people in America, are racially discriminating against minorities.

 

[medschoolzombie]

This analogy only works if you think college admissions is not a zero sum game. There is a set amount of spots in each class, so if you give one group of applicants a bonus, you have to suppress another group. We can agree that implicit bias is out there and extremely difficult to fix. We just disagree on the ideal solution. I think the better solution would be to start improving things from the bottom up instead of from the top down, starting with improving educational opportunities


I don't think race based affirmative action would ever benefit an Asian kid over a black kid regardless of their circumstances. Any SES affirmative action that the Asian kid would receive would be canceled out by race. That's just not right. Also, I thought the whole point of affirmative action was to close the opportunity gap. What do stereotypes have to do with success in college?

I agree. The issue is that we’re allowing inequality to add up over time to ‘fix’ it at the college level instead of at the root in primary education

Affirmative action works by going off of established stereotypes. By assuming all Asians are well off and all other minorities aren’t, it seeks to close the gap by race based admissions. SES to my knowledge wasn’t considered as a factor in the original ruling. It was all about elevating people of a certain race

 

[medschoolzombie]

The potential problems with this system is that you might end up with a class made of entirely of people of low SES (wouldn't that be discriminatory to wealthy kids?). Also you would have to set the numbers what classifies someone to a low SES. For example what if you grew up in a poor family, but by the time you're applying for med school your family have already walked up the socioeconomic ladder, would you still be considered low SES (That would be me, I grew up in Haiti in a poor family most of my life (19 years), but now after moving here my parents are making so much I wasn't considered for grants in undergrad, I had to ride all undergrad on student loans).

Edit: And don't get me wrong I actually like the idea of it being SES based, but we also have to consider these challenges.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

There should be no difference. We let race based admission be allowed yet all our schools aren’t filled with African Americans and Hispanics. It’s a non issue.

The fafsa would be great for this. There’s an EFC value that’s set. So if a value is less than maybe the cost of tuition, they qualify. That way the middle class students who’re too rich for normal aid but too poor for college can be counted. Another option is to go by the ivy definitions which are anyone who’s family makes less than $125k

I very much disagree, actually. Implicit bias is very real, even for those who don’t consciously hold racist beliefs. People are treated differently based on what they look like, their names, etc., and there is no shortage of research showing this.

Implicit bias is never going to be fixed by any policy you make. That’s something that gets fixed over time as people get more exposure to others and ideas change.

Take a look at the paper above. It unfortunately doesn't address the racial bias which prevents social mobility. In addition, whatALso, you're still missing that there's bias across social group. I come from an upper middle class family, however that means nothing when I'm on campus trying to find opportunities to improve my application, ask for instruction from professors, etc. No one looks at me and knows what socialeconomic group I belong to in order to potentially discriminate against me. I'd be on board for SES based action also. In fact, I think current policies should extend more to account for lower SES status. But, if you only address this, you're missing a big chunk of other factors which are according to research, more important and determinative of outcome. I'm also not sure you truly understand URM issues if you think money can fix them.

See comments above. You’re never going to fix people’s attitudes/prejudices/ Implicit bias with any govt policy. If anything AA/URM is making it worse cause now everyone thinks they only reason they got in is because of their race. You’re wrong about SES. People can tell what class you’re from pretty easily. It’s reflected in your mannerisms, the way you dress, your car etc. You’re just lucky that you haven’t been discriminated against because of that but those are real things

I don’t think you understand the big picture here. The whole argument is that URMs face a lot more challenges growing up, the majority of which are SES related- bad schools, run down homes, can’t afford more education etc. these things can for sure be fixed with more money becuase then these people wouldn’t be low SES. This is the type of thing the government can fix, not racial bias in people

 

[dr_kateb]

1.You're missing what I'm saying. GPA isn't a standardized measure and we know other factors that go into it–availability of professors, social relationships, stresses surrounding school or even just mere existence.

2. While it is due in part to upbringing, you're missing that it doesn't stop there. Minority experiences on campus, controlling for every other factor, are due in large part to race and bias. Professors replying to emails, trying to start study groups, advisors giving adequate thought to students. Implicit bias winds around almost every factor. These factors decrease minority success in university in the context of GPA, graduation rates, retention rate, LORs, etc. No one deserves anything more than another, I'm looking at why we statistically see differences in between racial groups all accounted for in research. These are the determining factors for entrance into medical school-GPA, MCAT, LORs. If minority students can't reach the top floor due to other factors, you can't expect them to (or maybe a small group will). I could talk about the history of standardized testing and how it was formed in part on racial discriminatory practices, but I also don't know of an article concerning MCAT specifically, only ACT/SAT. However, I would assume the sentiment carries.

3. See above in point 2 and I see what you're trying to provoke, but you're unfortunately not going to get that satisfaction. I'm not a reactionary person and I have a thorough understanding of these issues. I haven't said anything ill of those who disagree, because most of all, they don't understand. And unfortunately, that's why we get discussions like this because the history of what we learn that shapes our opinions and thoughts, is extremely narrow and "written (or at least what is popularized) by the victor" so to say. We know that students of racial minorities have a different, negative experience due to race when controlled for everything else. So what do we have to do to go against that? Look at race and understand that these students don't and more importantly can't have the same experience as "model minority", majority, or other non-marginalized groups. If we ever reach the day where race doesn't have an impact on thoughts towards a person, then fantastic we don't need race based affirmative action. Until then, we're stuck trying to equalize issues. I understand that unless you're a part of these groups you can't understand what occurs daily, but please at least try to learn.

That's what the MCAT is for. It's standardized. Everybody gets the same thing. No inflation, no deflation.

All of the things you mentioned are broader societal issues that won't change because of giving them a bump for being a minority in school admissions. Like I said, AA makes implicit bias worse, which is something everybody has, not just me. Just because you had a rough life doesn't mean you will better doctor than someone that owns a private yacht, or just a good doctor in general. There is no justification for the racial discrimination that occurs. You know this, that's why you try to make people who disagree look like racists and bullies.

Perhaps because you're viewing them as "diversity hires" instead of humans

If somehow putting down already marginalized students makes you feel better about yourself, then maybe you should address that core issue.

What you saying is that because these people have had a hard life, non marginalized groups should be fine with having their rights violated, to be discriminated against for "the greater good." If you didn't support Thanos in infinity war, you shouldn't be supporting "racially conscious" admissions.

Even for the people that acknowledge that it is racial discrimination but say it's okay because patients need to "relate to their doctors" I think this sums it up nice.

Additionally, I don't understand why patients are overly concerned with their docs being able to relate to them. I've been a patient and had major surgery done on me. I didn't gaf about being able to relate to my docs. I just wanted to know they were good at their job and were going to treat me properly. Yes, I realize that being able to trust them is part of that, but people are stupid and fail to realize that almost everyone is a horrible judge of character. Especially when you only interact with someone minimally (and there is a lot of research in this field).

Seriously you spend very little time with your doctor and then he or she goes on to the next patient. If you are hospitalized it's the nurses that you'll have the most interaction with. When I was hospitalized 3 days for food poisoning I spent maybe 20 minutes with the ED doc and 10 with the radiologist when I was first admitted, then maybe 10 with one GI doc on the second day, and then maybe 10 again with a different GI doc when I was being discharged on the third day. These are pretty generous estimates too.

Let's also not pretend that just because a person is a minority, does no mean he/she cannot be racist. I think a good example is the Harvard trial where racial bias against whites is somehow spun into a positive.

 

[mph876]

I initially hoped that individuals intelligent enough to want to be doctors and improve humanity would be open to relearning bias and have an open mind toward the subject, but unfortunately I am obviously wrong. Or at least not commit obvious fallacies (really Thanos relating to affirmative action? ). In addition, if you admit that affirmative action makes you "implicitly biased" it by definition, can't be implicit anymore. You should really learn to realign your thinking of why for some reason you believe every minority could only get in with affirmative action. Coming from the comment that it makes implicit bias worse. Funny how no one ever says anything against veterans, non-traditional, etc. being bumped in the application process. I can educate those who want to be, but obviously you (the collective you, to be fair) do not want to and it's a waste of my words when I could be doing better things.

But if you want a great example of why minority students are discouraged from university and professional school, you've done a great job of showing that because the majority, if not all your thoughts translate into behaviors that hamper minority success whether you realize it explicitly or not. Whether in your patients (unfortunately), peers, or colleagues.

 

[878956]

Please refrain from using Thanos's name in vain here.

In any event. RIP Stan Lee. You played a pivotal role in my childhood.

 

[PeleHonuaMea]

But if you want a great example of why minority students are discouraged from university and professional school, you've done a great job of showing that because the majority, if not all your thoughts translate into behaviors that hamper minority success whether you realize it explicitly or not. Whether in your patients (unfortunately), peers, or colleagues.

This!!

I also saw some mention how they dont understand why a patient needs to relate to their doctor? (Because they spent more time with the nurses) Lol... because that's the ONE card you will have up your sleeve: you are the physician. In my many many years as a nurse, I have NEVER met a patient that listens to a nurse/therapist/staff over their doctor.

You know how we get patients to do anything? We say: "this is what your doctor ordered for you" or "this is what your doctor said you have to do"...etc .

That card up your sleeve will help you when you're trying to promote preventative health and to educate patients on a cardiac/DM/renal diet, healthy lifestyle, to stop smoking...etc.

If these patients can see and feel you as someone who can relate to their circumstances (they only eat from the $1 menu at McDonald's because it's all they can afford, or they dont have a grocery store within a 3 mile radius of their home)... instead of being frustrated about the 5th readmission this month for CHF because "he/she is not taking accountability" for their circumstances! Chances are, they will trust and listen to your advice MORE!

No, I'm not saying that you have to be from the same race to relate... but you DO have to be more understanding and you definitely have to have compassion for your patients.

Some of the comments I'm reading on here though?... hhmmm... I dont know. Can you truly relate to these under represented patients? *shrugs*

 

[dr_kateb]

I initially hoped that individuals intelligent enough to want to be doctors and improve humanity would be open to relearning bias and have an open mind toward the subject, but unfortunately I am obviously wrong. Or at least not commit obvious fallacies (really Thanos relating to affirmative action? ). In addition, if you admit that affirmative action makes you "implicitly biased" it by definition, can't be implicit anymore. You should really learn to realign your thinking of why for some reason you believe every minority could only get in with affirmative action. Coming from the comment that it makes implicit bias worse. Funny how no one ever says anything against veterans, non-traditional, etc. being bumped in the application process. I can educate those who want to be, but obviously you (the collective you, to be fair) do not want to and it's a waste of my words when I could be doing better things.

But if you want a great example of why minority students are discouraged from university and professional school, you've done a great job of showing that because the majority, if not all your thoughts translate into behaviors that hamper minority success whether you realize it explicitly or not. Whether in your patients (unfortunately), peers, or colleagues.

It's seriously like talking to a wall, or worse, like a sociology professor.

It's a perfectly fine analogy. Thanos wants to help all living things not fight over resources so he erases half of all living things for "the greater good." How would you feel if your rights were violated for the benefit of everyone? Yes or no?

Affirmative action didn't make me have implicit bias like I, or anyone, didn't have implicit bias before. I also never said that the only way minorities get in is through Affirmative Action. Also how am I discouraging anyone from applying to any school? I'm saying that race shouldn't be considered in school admissions. If they are as qualified as anyone else there would be no problem at all.

No one is deliberately trying to stop minorities from reaching their goals. Like someone said earlier, it's a 0 sum game. For someone to get something, another person loses something. To tell someone to give up their potential gains to someone else because, "oh he had a bad childhood" and stuff that happened 100 years ago that I'm not to blame for, is ridiculous and perhaps a perfect embodiment of entitlement.

 

[957367]

I initially hoped that individuals intelligent enough to want to be doctors and improve humanity would be open to relearning bias and have an open mind toward the subject, but unfortunately I am obviously wrong. Or at least not commit obvious fallacies (really Thanos relating to affirmative action? ). In addition, if you admit that affirmative action makes you "implicitly biased" it by definition, can't be implicit anymore. You should really learn to realign your thinking of why for some reason you believe every minority could only get in with affirmative action. Coming from the comment that it makes implicit bias worse. Funny how no one ever says anything against veterans, non-traditional, etc. being bumped in the application process. I can educate those who want to be, but obviously you (the collective you, to be fair) do not want to and it's a waste of my words when I could be doing better things.

But if you want a great example of why minority students are discouraged from university and professional school, you've done a great job of showing that because the majority, if not all your thoughts translate into behaviors that hamper minority success whether you realize it explicitly or not. Whether in your patients (unfortunately), peers, or colleagues.

Stop making straw man arguments. No one is denying that implicit bias exists. The problem is you can't do anything about people's unconscious thoughts. What some of us do not approve of is the use of conscious, systemic bias against other races in a vain attempt to compensate for it.

No one here is saying that URMs get into medical school only because of affirmative action. However it's extremely naive to deny that affirmative action gives a significant bonus to every URM candidate. That's the whole point of affirmative action! When the average white matriculant has a 3.75/512 and the average black matriculant has a 3.51/505, there's a reason behind the whole "diversity hire" stigma that's not just "oh the people who think that way are bigots". These people have data, provided by the AAMC no less, that supports their view. It's not necessarily us on SDN who feel that way, it's the patients in the general population who may think less of a doctor because of his/her race. The only real way to get rid of that is to stop race based admissions, which is one big reason that I dislike affirmative action.

Veterans and non-trads are just completely irrelevant to this discussion. Those are not immutable characteristics unlike skin color. Veterans and non-trads have experiences they gained of their own free will which elevate them in the application process. You could make an argument for legacy admissions, which I also oppose.

Have you thought of the possibility that a lot of the negative stigma against minorities in academia could be caused by affirmative action policies? I think that would discourage minority students more than anything we've said here.

 

[RNtoMD87]

It just like my middle school basketball coach said- we in this together. We gotta support other brothers. No one gonna look after us but us.

Uhhh THAT is racist.

 

[sinigang14]

This thread went from talking about a friend lying on an application to a racially charged conversation about the fairness of affirmative action on medical school admissions.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Yep. Every time I went off topic, it was closed.


CLOSE THIS SH DOWN.

 

[medschoolzombie]

This thread went from talking about a friend lying on an application to a racially charged conversation about the fairness of affirmative action on medical school admissions.

I’m too lazy to scroll all the way back but wasn’t the friend lying about race and that’s how this all happened

 

[dr_kateb]

Once some guy said a guy he knew lied about being black I knew this would happen.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Well I learned today that the easiest way to identify a black person is a lack of hair and eyebrows.


It’s a shame that people copy them. There’s literally no way to tell. Shameful.

In a completely unrelated post- look, one of the last American Natives

 

[Stagg737]

Funny how no one ever says anything against veterans, non-traditional, etc. being bumped in the application process.

If we're talking good about admission solely based on that status I'll argue against that all day. However, if those people can talk about how those experiences led them to be a better, more rounded applicant then they deserve that extra bump. Same thing can be said of race or SES or any other demographic. IMO you should get bonus points for the experience, not checking a box.

I can educate those who want to be, but obviously you (the collective you, to be fair) do not want to and it's a waste of my words when I could be doing better things.

I'm still waiting for you to provide your actual data...

If these patients can see and feel you as someone who can relate to their circumstances (they only eat from the $1 menu at McDonald's because it's all they can afford, or they dont have a grocery store within a 3 mile radius of their home)...

I have tried this before as I've been far worse off than what you outlined above in the past and almost no one cares. Rarely I'll get someone who feels we can relate because of this. Far more often it makes no difference to the patient, and occasionally (more often in my field) you get people saying things like "well you can't understand MY problems!!!" The people who really want to trust their docs don't need a huge backstory, they just want someone who is polite and will listen. Actually trying to relate to the patients who have trust issues with their docs often ends up making things worse even when they are of similar backgrounds and demographics.

No, I'm not saying that you have to be from the same race to relate... but you DO have to be more understanding and you definitely have to have compassion for your patients.

This I mostly agree with. You don't even have to relate, you just have to listen and be polite. Hell, most of the time you don't even actually have to listen or be polite, you just have to act like it. Like I said before, people grossly overestimate how good of a judge of character they are. The reasonable patients won't actually care about you "relating to them", they just want to be respected. I've found the ones who want to be related to generally are problematic regardless of the situation and will not be satisfied unless you end over backwards to please their every demand, and even then some will still complain that you didn't do enough for them. So yea, the "relating" thing isn't kind of ridiculous, but general respect and kindness go a long way.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I feel sorry for all of these “poor” people who can only afford the dollar menu at McDonald’s. Although I never had McDonald’s, Taco Bell, Burger King, etc until I was in my twenties in the Army. We had a mom and pop burger place called Erdeys that we ate at on special occasions maybe once or twice a year, and other than that, my mom made jumbalaya, étouffée, red beans and rice, squirrel gravy and rice, soup, etc because it was the cheapest thing we could make. A pot would last about 5 days. We didn’t put much meat in it because meat was much more expensive than roux or rice/beans and when we did buy meat, we bought like 100 pounds from a salvage store for like a dollar a pound and put it in a deep freeze outside, and it lasted FOREVER. And that was a specialty. It was usually squirrels, rabbits, or coon that we killed and ate. My fondest memories are when I was 5, and my dad would come home with a hunting sack full of squirrels and rabbits and I would help him cut the feet off into a brown paper bag or quarter them for momma while we talked. Or shelling peas out back.

But PLEASE- tell me how people are so poor, they have to pay other people to prepare their food. Sounds REAL poor.

 

[gyngyn]

This thread has gone way off topic.
If a return to a civil tone can be reached and maintained, no problem.

 

[PeleHonuaMea]

Far more often it makes no difference to the patient, and occasionally (more often in my field) you get people saying things like "well you can't understand MY problems!!!" The people who really want to trust their docs don't need a huge backstory, they just want someone who is polite and will listen. Actually trying to relate to the patients who have trust issues with their docs often ends up making things worse even when they are of similar backgrounds and demographics.



This I mostly agree with. You don't even have to relate, you just have to listen and be polite. Hell, most of the time you don't even actually have to listen or be polite, you just have to act like it. Like I said before, people grossly overestimate how good of a judge of character they are. The reasonable patients won't actually care about you "relating to them", they just want to be respected. I've found the ones who want to be related to generally are problematic regardless of the situation and will not be satisfied unless you end over backwards to please their every demand, and even then some will still complain that you didn't do enough for them. So yea, the "relating" thing isn't kind of ridiculous, but general respect and kindness go a long way.

Lol... let me guess, nephrology?
Just kidding .
But yes, I agree with what you said about respect and kindness .
Have a great week!

 

[Goro]

It's seriously like talking to a wall, or worse, like a sociology professor.

 

[Stagg737]

Lol... let me guess, nephrology?
Just kidding .
But yes, I agree with what you said about respect and kindness .
Have a great week!

Lol, nope, not even close. I don't think anyone in this thread would likely guess my field if they didn't already know it.

Anyway, lying on an application in any form is wrong and I wouldn't want to practice or be treated with/by anyone who felt the need to lie to get ahead.

 

[medschoolzombie]

Lol, nope, not even close. I don't think anyone in this thread would likely guess my field if they didn't already know it.

Anyway, lying on an application in any form is wrong and I wouldn't want to practice or be treated with/by anyone who felt the need to lie to get ahead.

There's an ongoing thread on the premed subreddit about this too. Apparently it's almost expected that people lie on their apps

 

[ChymeofPassion]

There's an ongoing thread on the premed subreddit about this too. Apparently it's almost expected that people lie on their apps

pm me link?

 

[Goro]

There's an ongoing thread on the premed subreddit about this too. Apparently it's almost expected that people lie on their apps

That type of mindset is common among liars and cheaters. Solipsism is a sin, after all.