Friend lied on application?

[Lucca]

these threads are always so depressing

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[Ms Procrastinator]

One was a girl that was a part of the premed community at an ex of mine's big state school. She lied about being Hispanic all throughout her app, an interviewer started an interview in Spanish, and her life sort of fell apart from there. She ended up reported for obvious falsification and ended up working in public relations last I heard. There were a couple of interesting cases on SDN over the years, but those details are more foreign to me

A good amount of Hispanics don't speak Spanish because their parents didn't pass it on so she could have gotten away with it. It depends though, how Hispanic did she tell them she was?

 

[Mad Jack]

A good amount of Hispanics don't speak Spanish because their parents didn't pass it on so she could have gotten away with it. It depends though, how Hispanic did she tell them she was?

Very

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

Very

That was stupid, liars never really do their research.

 

[947251]

That was stupid, liars never really do their research.

The dumb ones don't. The good liars do, and they're the ones who get away with it. You just never hear about them.

 

[878956]

Have you ever thought that your friend, who lied about his race on an app form, is lying about his acceptance?????

Nope saw the acceptance email.

 

[medschoolzombie]

That was stupid, liars never really do their research.

Not true at all. It’s only the bad/new ones who get caught. The pros have been doing it for so long that they’ve mastered the game

 

[jm192]

Why are so many people worried about their "duty" to the med-schools? Mind your business.

 

[Goro]

Why are so many people worried about their "duty" to the med-schools? Mind your business.

Because we don't like liars and dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students? Because Medicine is a profession that prides itself on honesty?

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Why are so many people worried about their "duty" to the med-schools? Mind your business.

And also because the same dishonest person might end up being your Doctor one day.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[jm192]

Because we don't like liars and dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students? Because Medicine is a profession that prides itself on honesty?

I guess I should have said "pre-meds" instead of people. You see these posts all the time where pre-meds think they need to be the one to turn someone in.

OP, I'd worry about coming across like a whiny tool if you did make phone calls to "turn someone in." The process will play itself out.

 

[dr_kateb]

I think we've had this discussion before. If I recall, you believe admissions should be a meritocracy. I still believe admissions should be allowed to prioritize future caregivers for underserved minority communities, similarly to how there are programs aimed at recruiting rural caregivers in flyover areas. It's a pragmatic thing too, not just D I V E R S I T Y for the sake of D I V E R S I T Y.

How do you know these people actually go into primary care for the underserved and not become a dermatologist in a place Georgetown, DC?

 

[medschoolzombie]

How do you know these people actually go into primary care for the underserved and not become a dermatologist in a place Georgetown, DC?

You don’t. I feel like a lot of those types of things are based off assumptions too. Everyone just assumes that people who grew up in rural areas are gonna go back and serve them after residency. Same with minorities/underserved populations. I’m sure some people do go back but there’s always a good chance that many won’t go back to serve the population they claimed they want to serve

 

[947251]

I guess I should have said "pre-meds" instead of people. You see these posts all the time where pre-meds think they need to be the one to turn someone in.

OP, I'd worry about coming across like a whiny tool if you did make phone calls to "turn someone in." The process will play itself out.

I agree with this. All the theoretical ethics scenarios try to hammer in the idea that the "correct" answer is always to turn the other person in. In reality no one wants to be labeled a snitch.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I agree with this. All the theoretical ethics scenarios try to hammer in the idea that the "correct" answer is always to turn the other person in. In reality no one wants to be labeled a snitch.

Just because no one wants to be the one to actually turn someone in doesn’t mean it’s wrong to do so. “Letting it play itself out” just means he has more opportunities to lie and be deceitful. It’s just a way to make yourself feel better about not doing anything.

 

[efle]

How do you know these people actually go into primary care for the underserved and not become a dermatologist in a place Georgetown, DC?

You don’t. I feel like a lot of those types of things are based off assumptions too. Everyone just assumes that people who grew up in rural areas are gonna go back and serve them after residency. Same with minorities/underserved populations. I’m sure some people do go back but there’s always a good chance that many won’t go back to serve the population they claimed they want to serve

It's about the behavior of the cohorts, not the individuals. A group of people who were raised in rural midwest and trained in rural midwest are, as a group, going to stay and practice in the rural midwest in much greater proportion. Sure, there might be the occasional person who runs away to Hollywood to do cash-only cosmetics, but that doesn't mean a school like Southern Illinois is wasting its time with its mission.

 

[medschoolzombie]

It's about the behavior of the cohorts, not the individuals. A group of people who were raised in rural midwest and trained in rural midwest are, as a group, going to stay and practice in the rural midwest in much greater proportion. Sure, there might be the occasional person who runs away to Hollywood to do cash-only cosmetics, but that doesn't mean a school like Southern Illinois is wasting its time with its mission.

Maybe, but med schools are still very individual focused. When they craft their classes, they try to get people who fit those qualities

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Maybe, but med schools are still very individual focused. When they craft their classes, they try to get people who fit those qualities

Because the more individuals you get who seem to match those qualities, the more likely it is that your class will serve the mission as a whole.

 

[Ultimakey]

You don’t. I feel like a lot of those types of things are based off assumptions too. Everyone just assumes that people who grew up in rural areas are gonna go back and serve them after residency. Same with minorities/underserved populations. I’m sure some people do go back but there’s always a good chance that many won’t go back to serve the population they claimed they want to serve

Would someone with hundreds of hours working with a certain underserved URM population be treated as a URM themselves (considering the URM boost is given due to potentially serving that specific community when you become a doctor)?

 

[Goro]

Would someone with hundreds of hours working with a certain underserved URM population be treated as a URM themselves (considering the URM boost is given due to potentially serving that specific community when you become a doctor)?

No, but it still is a killer EC. This is the type of thing that gets non-URMs into the HBCs.

 

[Ultimakey]

No, but it still is a killer EC. This is the type of thing that gets non-URMs into the HBCs.

Oh that’s cool. If you can just answer a couple of my q’s about the matter, is really appreciate it.
1. Which schools are considered “HBC’s”?
2. Do schools like Sinai (my current dream school because of the community the campus is in) and Columbia heavily favor students who worked heavily with underserved?
3. When people say “work with underserved,” is Iimited to working with medically underserved or can It be a mix of medically underserved, homeless, educationally underserved students, etc.
4. My current work is a lot of volunteering with those who don’t have access to certain types of education (tutor for underserved, teach at a prison, lead student-based activism for being ambassadors for their community (Harlem)). I’m looking to add medically underprivileged communities to my volunteering when the opportunity comes up, it’s relatively hard to find and I can’t easily fit It this semester without dropping something else. Will I be looked at critically for giving a whole semester to volunteering in the education-field over health-field?
5. For my student-led activism project, my class (they’re majority special needs) want to give mini-speeches in front of the entire school regarding being activists against gun violence in the community. We’re gonna record It (trying to get some news outlets to come record It as well). Would It be a good idea to keep the video with me for when I apply to medical schools or would It have no real value since It has nothing to do with healthcare.

Tl;dr: I’m very worried about my choice of EC this semester. I LOVE working with the underserved because they have so much they can teach you, so you can both help each other (everyone I teach/help is AA with a couple of Mexican-Americans). I will be volunteering in the health-care side of working with the underserved when I get the chance.

 

[Goro]

1. Which schools are considered “HBC’s”?
Historically Black Colleges = Meherray, Howard, Morehouse and UCLA/Drew
2. Do schools like Sinai (my current dream school because of the community the campus is in) and Columbia heavily favor students who worked heavily with underserved?

ALL medical schools like service to others less fortunate than yourself. Indeed, I stole this phrase from my learned colleague LizzyM, which is at one of the ionospheric schools. Now also keep in mind that some schools ike service even more than others, like Creighton, Rush, SLU, Drexel and Albany.

3. When people say “work with underserved,” is Iimited to working with medically underserved or can It be a mix of medically underserved, homeless, educationally underserved students, etc.
All underserved.

4. My current work is a lot of volunteering with those who don’t have access to certain types of education (tutor for underserved, teach at a prison, lead student-based activism for being ambassadors for their community (Harlem)). I’m looking to add medically underprivileged communities to my volunteering when the opportunity comes up, it’s relatively hard to find and I can’t easily fit It this semester without dropping something else. Will I be looked at critically for giving a whole semester to volunteering in the education-field over health-field?
Nope. Medicine is a service profession after all.


5. For my student-led activism project, my class (they’re majority special needs) want to give mini-speeches in front of the entire school regarding being activists against gun violence in the community. We’re gonna record It (trying to get some news outlets to come record It as well). Would It be a good idea to keep the video with me for when I apply to medical schools or would It have no real value since It has nothing to do with healthcare.
Nope

Tl;dr: I’m very worried about my choice of EC this semester. I LOVE working with the underserved because they have so much they can teach you, so you can both help each other (everyone I teach/help is AA with a couple of Mexican-Americans). I will be volunteering in the health-care side of working with the underserved when I get the chance.
Do what you love and love what you do!

 

[Ultimakey]

1. Which schools are considered “HBC’s”?
Historically Black Colleges = Meherray, Howard, Morehouse and UCLA/Drew
2. Do schools like Sinai (my current dream school because of the community the campus is in) and Columbia heavily favor students who worked heavily with underserved?

ALL medical schools like service to others less fortunate than yourself. Indeed, I stole this phrase from my learned colleague LizzyM, which is at one of the ionospheric schools. Now also keep in mind that some schools ike service even more than others, like Creighton, Rush, SLU, Drexel and Albany.

3. When people say “work with underserved,” is Iimited to working with medically underserved or can It be a mix of medically underserved, homeless, educationally underserved students, etc.
All underserved.

4. My current work is a lot of volunteering with those who don’t have access to certain types of education (tutor for underserved, teach at a prison, lead student-based activism for being ambassadors for their community (Harlem)). I’m looking to add medically underprivileged communities to my volunteering when the opportunity comes up, it’s relatively hard to find and I can’t easily fit It this semester without dropping something else. Will I be looked at critically for giving a whole semester to volunteering in the education-field over health-field?
Nope. Medicine is a service profession after all.


5. For my student-led activism project, my class (they’re majority special needs) want to give mini-speeches in front of the entire school regarding being activists against gun violence in the community. We’re gonna record It (trying to get some news outlets to come record It as well). Would It be a good idea to keep the video with me for when I apply to medical schools or would It have no real value since It has nothing to do with healthcare.
Nope

Tl;dr: I’m very worried about my choice of EC this semester. I LOVE working with the underserved because they have so much they can teach you, so you can both help each other (everyone I teach/help is AA with a couple of Mexican-Americans). I will be volunteering in the health-care side of working with the underserved when I get the chance.
Do what you love and love what you do!

Thank you so much! You’re God’s ‘Gift to Medicine’.

 

[Goro]

Thank you so much! You’re God’s ‘Gift to Medicine’.

Nope. Maybe to Mrs Dr Goro.

 

[medschoolzombie]

Would someone with hundreds of hours working with a certain underserved URM population be treated as a URM themselves (considering the URM boost is given due to potentially serving that specific community when you become a doctor)?

No but I think it would give you an equal value boost. This is most of my app in a nutshell and that’s one of the reoccurring topics that always come up in an interivew for me

 

[Birdstrike]

Hi guys, so someone I know (not really a friend but more of an acquaintance as a fellow officer in an org) has been bragging about how she blatantly lied on her med school applications about her ECs and said things like she came up with xyz program even though it was actually a different officer who did it. She also brags about how she exaggerated her involvement in a bunch of things, like saying she came up with specific big fundraiser ideas even though it was actually someone else’s idea and she was just part of a committee that helped execute it.

Am I supposed to do something about this or just ignore it?? Is there anything I CAN do besides tell her how f-ed up that is? I feel like it’s so messed up?

Chances are this person comes across as phony in their interviews as was their applications. I've always felt that what comes around goes around. This person's sleaziness will catch up with them in spades, eventually. Be sure of it. Stay honest, stay true to yourself and know they'll choke on their own lack of character, eventually. They'll also have to live with the fact that they're a fraud, something you'll never have to be burdened by.

 

[TJinDaHouse]

I mean it messed up if ppl claim they black just to get ahead, but you cant judge on appearance. My lil cuz could pass as caucasion but his momma is real light skinned to and his dad is about average melanin. He even got white ppl hair and all.

 

[TJinDaHouse]

Race shouldn’t be a part of this process

Why not? Blacks been held back from 1600s- Jim Crow era so what wrong with giving us a lil boost to help get us caught up?

 

[deleted480308]

Why not? Blacks been held back from 1600s- Jim Crow era so what wrong with giving us a lil boost to help get us caught up?

Racial discrimination is wrong

 

[TJinDaHouse]

You right, that why we gotta fix the injustice from the past

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Racial discrimination is wrong

Patient-Centered Communication, Ratings of Care, and Concordance of Patient and Physician Race | Annals of Internal Medicine | American College of Physicians

Understanding Concordance in Patient-Physician Relationships: Personal and Ethnic Dimensions of Shared Identity

I don’t feel like posting all of them because there are a lot. But I’m guessing you’re okay with poorer outcomes because patients have fewer opportunities to see physicians of similar backgrounds?

 

[deleted480308]

Patient-Centered Communication, Ratings of Care, and Concordance of Patient and Physician Race | Annals of Internal Medicine | American College of Physicians

Understanding Concordance in Patient-Physician Relationships: Personal and Ethnic Dimensions of Shared Identity

I don’t feel like posting all of them because there are a lot. But I’m guessing you’re okay with poorer outcomes because patients have fewer opportunities to see physicians of similar backgrounds?

Those are satisfaction surveys that show nothing more than patients are people who sometimes prefer to racially discriminate, I don't think that means medical education should join them

 

[medschoolzombie]

You right, that why we gotta fix the injustice from the past

Then again we also shouldn’t be adding more racial injustice/discrimination from the present to the mix. Look at the Harvard case that’s going on right now. It looks like There’s a good chance that Harvard was actively discriminating against Asian applicants which is wrong too

 

[957367]

I don’t feel like posting all of them because there are a lot. But I’m guessing you’re okay with poorer outcomes because patients have fewer opportunities to see physicians of similar backgrounds?

If patients have racial bias towards or against their physicians that's on them. There should never be a valid justification for treating people differently based on their skin color, including if it's done under the guise of "societal benefit" or "righting past wrongs". I would think we as a nation should have learned that lesson by now.

If you want more URM doctors, you should appeal more strongly to people from those communities. However once the candidates send in their applications, there should be no consideration given to immutable characteristics such as skin color or ethnicity.

 

[TJinDaHouse]

Ppl in inner city areas don’t trust rich white doctors. Not always because they think they don’t have their best interest in mind, but they don’t think they understand them and they life. They not gonna listen to some doctor that don’t even know they life.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Then again we also shouldn’t be adding more racial injustice/discrimination from the present to the mix. Look at the Harvard case that’s going on right now. It looks like There’s a good chance that Harvard was actively discriminating against Asian applicants which is wrong too

Racial discrimination is wrong

But then being URM also means that you're more likely to have faced many more challenges and have a lower SES in society, which in turns many times results in lower stats from these applicants. Just take a look at the HBCs median stats, you think they actually want people with lower stats, or African Americans in general actually do have lower stats.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[TJinDaHouse]

We don’t got some resources y’all do. Our schools less funded and many of us grow up poor. But when we get a helping hand we can accomplish great things.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

What if URM was based on SES/educational disparity rather than race; it would theoretically still help a good majority of the PoC populations but also prevent the discrimination against poor white and Asian communities, and may also help poor PoC with a boost rather than rich PoC getting a boost on basis of their skin tone, with people who really need it getting the boost.

 

[957367]

But then being URM also means that you're more likely to have faced many more challenges and have a lower SES in society, which in turns many times results in lower stats from these applicants. Just take a look at the HBCs median stats, you think they actually want people with lower stats, or African Americans in general actually do have lower stats.

Then let's emphasize SES based affirmative action instead of race, which most people don't have a problem with. The argument you're making is a broad generalization: "Being URM means you're are more likely to be from low SES". How about we look at each individual applicant's SES and judge based on that instead of generalized assumptions based on their racial group.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

What if URM was based on SES/educational disparity rather than race; it would theoretically still help a good majority of the PoC populations but also prevent the discrimination against poor white and Asian communities, and may also help poor PoC with a boost rather than rich PoC getting a boost on basis of their skin tone, preventing people who really need it getting the boost.

This probably would be better.

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[medschoolzombie]

But then being URM also means that you're more likely to have faced many more challenges and have a lower SES in society, which in turns many times results in lower stats from these applicants. Just take a look at the HBCs median stats, you think they actually want people with lower stats, or African Americans in general actually do have lower stats.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

The issue many people have with how a race based status is defined is that it doesn’t account for all races. I’ll talk about this from an Asian perspective since I know more about it.In the field of education, Asians aren’t considered minorities even though most of them face many of the challenges that come with being minorities. Also, while Asians as a whole may be better off, there’s so many sub races that are on par SES wise with other minorities. This is why many people want a SES based admissions. The argument I always hear is “ URMs are poorer than others” but many of the URMs I talk to don’t want an SES based admissions which makes no sense to me. That would solve their issues since they would still get a priority in some way but also account for poor people of other races like Asians

Another thing to consider is culture. Asian culture prioritizes education above all. In Asian counties/families education is seen as the great equalizer. More often then not, poor people do not complain that they’re disadvantaged compared to the rich. They just study harder. Poor Parents will also run themselves into debt for their kids so that they don’t have to work and can focus on their education. I work with URMs regularly and after years of doing so, I can say that this is the exact opposite of what the cultures of many URMs do. There is less emphasis on education and more on working to support the family as soon as possible. Yes many African Americans have low stats but that’s not all of them. Many of them also end up with 515+/3.7+ and get into top colleges. Maybe they come from families that prioritized education and that’s why they succeeded? I’d be interested to see a breakdown of this stuff.

One thing I always want others to consider is that it may not always be opportunity that is the issue. Many times it may just be the culture you grow up in and no amount of governmental interference is gonna fix that until the people in those cultures decide they want to change.

 

[medschoolzombie]

We don’t got some resources y’all do. Our schools less funded and many of us grow up poor. But when we get a helping hand we can accomplish great things.

Then that issue Is something you need to take up with your state reps. Inequality compounds overtime. College is not the time to be tackling this inequality for the first time. Your state/city have been ripping you off by underfunding your schools and refusing to instill programs to help you all get resources to succeed. Giving colleges the power to be “equalizers” is the government’s way of saying ‘we don’t want to deal with these people and their problems’ which is wrong and right now they’re getting away with it

 

[957367]

The argument I always hear is “ URMs are poorer than others” but many of the URMs I talk to don’t want an SES based admissions which makes no sense to me.

It's the schools who value race based admissions over SES based.

This is from from an NPR article on the recent Harvard case:

"The plaintiff also argued that Harvard officials should be considering race-blind admissions tactics. According to the plaintiff, it's possible to still get a diverse class without considering race, especially if Harvard increased its "tip" for applicants of low socioeconomic status. Harvard officials say doing that would lead to an unacceptable drop in the academic quality of an incoming class."

It's less about giving a leg up to people who've had a lack of opportunities growing up and more about achieving racial diversity.

 

[medschoolzombie]

It's the schools who value race based admissions over SES based.

This is from from an NPR article on the recent Harvard case:

"The plaintiff also argued that Harvard officials should be considering race-blind admissions tactics. According to the plaintiff, it's possible to still get a diverse class without considering race, especially if Harvard increased its "tip" for applicants of low socioeconomic status. Harvard officials say doing that would lead to an unacceptable drop in the academic quality of an incoming class."

It's less about giving a leg up to people who've had a lack of opportunities growing up and more about achieving racial diversity.

So it’s more about schools being able to brag about how many Hispanic and African American kids they have. Makes sense

 

[Goro]

So it’s more about schools being able to brag about how many Hispanic and African American kids they have. Makes sense

No it's about getting a physician Workforce that mirrors the American population. There are patient outcomes riding on this with Data to prove it.

 

[957367]

No it's about getting a physician Workforce that mirrors the American population. There are patient outcomes riding on this with Data to prove it.

I disagree with this justification. I basically see it as "racial discrimination is okay as long as society benefits from it" which I still think is morally wrong. There have been a lot of terrible people throughout history who firmly believed their discriminatory treatment of certain racial groups was for the greater good of society.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Those are satisfaction surveys that show nothing more than patients are people who sometimes prefer to racially discriminate, I don't think that means medical education should join them

Do you just ignore things that don’t fit your world view? There are plenty of studies that show outcomes are better when the physicians and patients are of similar background and race. Saying “patients should just not discriminate” is an extremely immature response to that.

 

[medschoolzombie]

No it's about getting a physician Workforce that mirrors the American population. There are patient outcomes riding on this with Data to prove it.

But if racial diversity can be achieved with focusing on SES instead of race and colleges don’t want to do that, then that highlights a possible ulterior motive. Plus a large chunk of this country is from low SES backgrounds, so if anything colleges should be focused on mirroring that too

Harvard said it would create a ‘drop in quality’ too which makes me think that they’re not interested in elevating the poor.

 

[957367]

Do you just ignore things that don’t fit your world view? There are plenty of studies that show outcomes are better when the physicians and patients are of similar background and race. Saying “patients should just not discriminate” is an extremely immature response to that.

So medical schools should accommodate the racial bias of patients by introducing their own racial bias in the admissions process?

 

[deleted480308]

Do you just ignore things that don’t fit your world view? There are plenty of studies that show outcomes are better when the physicians and patients are of similar background and race. Saying “patients should just not discriminate” is an extremely immature response to that.

First there aren't really a ton that say that as most end up being what you posted which was really just patient satisfaction scores. And second, saying racial discrimination is wrong isn't immature. It's a value statement that you may choose to disagree with but that's where we'll just have to agree to disagree. Even if outcomes could be proven to be better with racial discrimination, I would not approve.