Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

[Goro]

When would you strongly recommend someone to do an SMP vs a DIY Post-Bacc if they have low GPA <3.0 but a significant upward trend?

It depends upon the degree of that trend and how long it was. I feel that two strong upper class years at, say 3.7+ and combined with a strong MCAT and ECs would have many Adcoms look at a candidate as a 3.7+ candidate, not a cGPA of << 3.7 candidate.

A single strong SR year will not be enough data point sot show reinvention, and that's when I recommend the post-bac/SMP path.

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[socialmedsecondchancer]

@Goro, here is my underdog app ft. strong upward trend w/ reinvention:

Freshman: 1.69 cumulative
Sophomore: 1.98 cumulative
<Academic Suspension - Spring Soph>
Junior: 3.46 cumulative
Senior: 3.57 cumulative
DIY Post- Bacc: 3.62 cumulative/BCPM (22 credits, all upper chem/bio, may take an additional 8 credits this Fall/Spring to hit 30 and raise it to 3.8+).
MCAT: TBD July '20

4+ years of research, advocacy & work experience in public health/primary care with underserved populations. Very strong letters of recommendation. The past few years of reinvention following significant adversity have been extremely difficult both emotionally and mentally, but I'm constantly looking uphill and working hard to make sure I get my app looked at.

Aiming for low-tier MD and all DO programs w/ commitment to primary care/medically underserved areas. Difficult to say w/o definitive MCAT score (exam rescheduling has made this more challenging), but have a preliminary list of programs & will be casting a wide net.

 

[Goro]

@Goro, here is my underdog app ft. strong upward trend w/ reinvention:

Freshman: 1.69 cumulative
Sophomore: 1.98 cumulative
<Academic Suspension - Spring Soph>
Junior: 3.46 cumulative
Senior: 3.57 cumulative
DIY Post- Bacc: 3.62 cumulative/BCPM (22 credits, all upper chem/bio, may take an additional 8 credits this Fall/Spring to hit 30 and raise it to 3.8+).
MCAT: TBD July '20

4+ years of research, advocacy & work experience in public health/primary care with underserved populations. Very strong letters of recommendation. The past few years of reinvention following significant adversity have been extremely difficult both emotionally and mentally, but I'm constantly looking uphill and working hard to make sure I get my app looked at.

Aiming for low-tier MD and all DO programs w/ commitment to primary care/medically underserved areas. Difficult to say w/o definitive MCAT score (exam rescheduling has made this more challenging), but have a preliminary list of programs & will be casting a wide net.

So far so good

 

[socialmedsecondchancer]

So far so good

What is your experience with students who get accepted following academic suspension? How do you think adcoms would react considering this trend?

 

[Goro]

What is your experience with students who get accepted following academic suspension? How do you think adcoms would react considering this trend?

Academic suspensions mean nothing if you have recovered your mojo.

 

[jac697]

Hi @Goro,

I just wanted your opinion on my overall grade trends. I'm a current University of Washington student and had trouble with grades due to studying issues, immaturity, and lack of time management. I think that I've turned it around but I wanted your opinion. Most, if not all, of my prereq courses are mostly B's with 4 C's but I've been acing all of my upper-division classes (e.g. Medical Physiology, Neurobiology, Immunology, etc).

*I guess I'm concerned that my upward trend won't show as notably since my 5th year gpa (decided I wanted to pick up another major out of pure interest while having the added benefit of raising my sGPA over the 3.0 mark) will be calculated into my senior year. Would this constitute reinvention and do you think with a good MCAT score, I have a shot at MDs (I'm a CA, ORM but planning to change to WA residency to apply to UWSOM and WSUSOM). I will also be applying to DO, as well.

*Also am slightly confused about how amcas determines grades. My UW transcript grades are different from an AMCAS calculator I've been using. UW uses a continuous grading scale.

Freshmen Year (29.7 sem hrs): 2.94 cGPA/ 2.62 sGPA
Sophmore (34.5 sem. hrs): 3.2 cGPA/ 2.8 sGPA
Junior (33.3 sem. hrs): 3.24 cGPA/ 2.99 sGPA

Senior (27.9 semester hrs of most upper level science): 3.63 cGPA/ 3.5 sGPA
5th year (31.3 semester hrs of all upper level science): 3.79 cGPA/3.74 sGPA
Combined senior (59.2 sem. hrs): 3.71 cGPA/3.63 sGPA

Overall: 3.33 cGPA/3.12 sGPA

 

[Goro]

Hi @Goro,

I just wanted your opinion on my overall grade trends. I'm a current University of Washington student and had trouble with grades due to studying issues, immaturity, and lack of time management. I think that I've turned it around but I wanted your opinion. Most, if not all, of my prereq courses are mostly B's with 4 C's but I've been acing all of my upper-division classes (e.g. Medical Physiology, Neurobiology, Immunology, etc).

*I guess I'm concerned that my upward trend won't show as notably since my 5th year gpa (decided I wanted to pick up another major out of pure interest while having the added benefit of raising my sGPA over the 3.0 mark) will be calculated into my senior year. Would this constitute reinvention and do you think with a good MCAT score, I have a shot at MDs (I'm a CA, ORM but planning to change to WA residency to apply to UWSOM and WSUSOM). I will also be applying to DO, as well.

*Also am slightly confused about how amcas determines grades. My UW transcript grades are different from an AMCAS calculator I've been using. UW uses a continuous grading scale.

Freshmen Year (29.7 sem hrs): 2.94 cGPA/ 2.62 sGPA
Sophmore (34.5 sem. hrs): 3.2 cGPA/ 2.8 sGPA
Junior (33.3 sem. hrs): 3.24 cGPA/ 2.99 sGPA

Senior (27.9 semester hrs of most upper level science): 3.63 cGPA/ 3.5 sGPA
5th year (31.3 semester hrs of all upper level science): 3.79 cGPA/3.74 sGPA
Combined senior (59.2 sem. hrs): 3.71 cGPA/3.63 sGPA

Overall: 3.33 cGPA/3.12 sGPA

Chances for MD will be best at your state schools, and DO schools.

You have to figure out how AMCAS and AACOMAS calculate your grades...what UW does is irrelevant.

 

[jac697]

@Goro,

Would out of state MDs be out of the picture then? Even the ones that value reinvention? Unless my track record is not suggestive enough of reinvention. I used the MSAR and my gpa's are within the 10 percentile for a lot of schools but I am unsure if I should base my school list on my overall gpa or my most recent course work. Or make a list with a mix of both?

Would it still be looked favorably that I did well over the past 2 years even though the 2 years are combined into my senior year? I know my application will indicate the total amount of credits but am worried it won't sell my story as well. If so, do you recommend more coursework after graduating? Or should I just go ahead with what I have and try my best applying broadly

 

[NigroqueSimillima]

@Goro

How do schools view having a way higher sGPA vs cGPA? I'm talking about 3.81 sGPA, 3.1 cGPA. Undergrad was electrical engineering, and almost all non-A's were engineering courses. Post bacc is 4.0. All A's in pre req courses, both the ones taken in undergrad or in the post bacc school. As a URM(AA male), could I aim for T20 school if I do well on the MCAT?

 

[Goro]

@Goro

How do schools view having a way higher sGPA vs cGPA? I'm talking about 3.81 sGPA, 3.1 cGPA. Undergrad was electrical engineering, and almost all non-A's were engineering courses. Post bacc is 4.0. All A's in pre req courses, both the ones taken in undergrad or in the post bacc school. As a URM(AA male), could I aim for T20 school if I do well on the MCAT?

In your case, schools that reward reinvention ignore the sGPA but look at the post-bac. Hence, you can target tops schools with a good MCAT. For you, being URM, shoot for 509+

 

[Goro]

@Goro,

Would out of state MDs be out of the picture then? Even the ones that value reinvention? Unless my track record is not suggestive enough of reinvention. I used the MSAR and my gpa's are within the 10 percentile for a lot of schools but I am unsure if I should base my school list on my overall gpa or my most recent course work. Or make a list with a mix of both?

Would it still be looked favorably that I did well over the past 2 years even though the 2 years are combined into my senior year? I know my application will indicate the total amount of credits but am worried it won't sell my story as well. If so, do you recommend more coursework after graduating? Or should I just go ahead with what I have and try my best applying broadly

Reinventors should NOT use MSAR! The only thing of use is the number of matriculants who have post-bac courses and/or post graduate degrees.

Your case is unique because your fifth year gets buried into your SR year, which is what Adcoms and screeners will see. I suggest applying to an SMP while you're also applying to med schools. Insurance and all that.

 

[jac697]

@Goro

Reinventors should NOT use MSAR! The only thing of use is the number of matriculants who have post-bac courses and/or post graduate degrees.

Your case is unique because your fifth year gets buried into your SR year, which is what Adcoms and screeners will see. I suggest applying to an SMP while you're also applying to med schools. Insurance and all that.

I guess the only thing I can hope for is that they look into my senior more when they see the amount of credits is doubled? Would it be advised to call the respective school I'm applying to and tell them about my situation? And or include the information (separate my gpas from senior year) in my secondaries? Will definitely do more research into SMPs

In terms of my school list, I should I apply to the schools you've listed as being open to reinvention? Or does that list not apply to me due to the situation I'm in regarding my 5th year.

 

[NigroqueSimillima]

In your case, schools that reward reinvention ignore the sGPA but look at the post-bac. Hence, you can target tops schools with a good MCAT. For you, being URM, shoot for 509+

What about schools that aren't on your list of rewarding reinvention?

 

[Goro]

@Goro


1. I guess the only thing I can hope for is that they look into my senior more when they see the amount of credits is doubled?

2. Would it be advised to call the respective school I'm applying to and tell them about my situation? And or include the information (separate my gpas from senior year) in my secondaries?
Will definitely do more research into SMPs

3. In terms of my school list, I should I apply to the schools you've listed as being open to reinvention? Or does that list not apply to me due to the situation I'm in regarding my 5th year.

1. Yes
2. Don't do this
3. I suggest my list. Don't forget your state schools!!!

 

[deleted562805]

So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling.

But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take both time and money. And always remember that you’re in a marathon now, not a sprint. The following advice holds true for people considering MD and DO. I strongly recommend that you keep both in mind, and the latter is more tolerant of reinvention.

EDIT: An even better summary to the next paragraph is provided by the wise HomeSkool here: Simple rules for retaking courses

Here’s what you need to do :

a) IF you have F/D grades in the pre-reqs, retake them. You need to show that you can master this material, and it will help you for MCAT (assuming that you haven’t taken the MCAT). In addition, many schools require a C or higher grade in pre-reqs. Naturally, this will vary from school to school.

If you got C's, take some upper level science classes and ace them. There is no need to retake a C unless you are very weak on the material and you need it for MCAT. Never, ever retake a B or B-.

If the material was from a long time ago, and you got a B, but you feel you need a refresher for the MCAT, simply audit the course instead.

b) There are MD schools that reward reinvention. All DO schools do. The DO path will be a little easier, but both still require an investment of 1-2 years of not GPA repair, but of transcript repair.

c) The goal is NOT to raise your cGPA to a sky high level (for some people this is mathematically impossible), but rather show that the you of now is not the you of then, and that you can handle a medical school curriculum. So do not worry that your cGPA will be 3.2 upon applying after finishing your post-bac/GPA. Rising GPA trends are always looked highly upon, and many med schools weight the last 2-3 years more than the entire cGPA.

d) Thus, take 1-2 years of a DIY post-bac, or a 1 year SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Do well in either of these programs. A 3.5+ should suffice for a DO school, while 3.7+ will be needed for an MD school

e) in addition to d), your MCAT score will determine where to aim. I suggest:

513+ : MD schools

510+ : your state MD school and any DO school

505+: any DO school

500+: the newest DO schools

On top of these, get as much patient contact volunteering time in as possible. A trend I am seeing from SDNers who have received interviews from good schools and who also reinvented themselves, is that they have lots of clinical volunteering or employment...some even in the 1000s of hours.

As to the pluses and minuses of post-bac vs SMP:

A formal post-bac program is geared toward career switchers, and mostly provide the pre-reqs, and probably some MCAT advice/prep as well. You get faculty guidance in this and some programs seem to be feeders to med schools for non-trad students. They will cost more though.

Now, you can do the same thing on your own by simply taking continuing education courses at any nearby college. A four year school will be preferable to a community college (CC), but if costs are an issue, then a CC will be OK. This path is what is known here in SDN as the “DIY post-bac.” Costs will be less, but there’s no guidance.

What classes should one take in a DIY post-bac??? Things that mimic a medical school curriculum!

Anatomy
Biochem
Bioinformatics
Biostats
Cell Bio
Developmental Biology or Embryology
Histology
Immunology
Med Micro OR Bacteriology and/or Virology
Molecular Bio or Genetics
Neuroscience or Neurobiology
Parasitology (if offered)
Pathology
Physiology
Tumor or Cancer Biology

An SMP (special master’s program) is one that offers medical school classes, or material that’s taught in medical school. These can be a backdoor into med school, and you get real advice from med school faculty (if given at a med school). Plus, you're a known quantity to the Adcom members, who will frequently be your SMP faculty. The down side is that the tuition will be more considerable. You may also have to relocate in order to attend one.

There are some two year SMPs, but I don’t see any advantage to these over one year programs.

Also, if you do poorly, your SMP degree is worthless, unless the program has an added-value component, like some research venue. Thus, SMPs are more high risk, but also high reward.

One final word of warning: Do NOT take the MCAT while enrolled in an SMP. We’ve seen students do this, and it leads to disaster. Some programs require an MCAT, so that solves the problem (although they may have a minimum score requirement!).

And remember, med schools aren’t going anywhere, and in fact, by the time you apply, several more will have opened their doors.

Good luck!

Hello @Goro,
Would you advise not to get a second undergrad degree? Or is DIY-post bacc better? I am torn between the two. It’s not about the number of degrees per se. it is just a second undergrad degree like in Biochemistry would be considered a separate GPA and becomes a sort of a clean slate. It does not add to the previous undergrad degree. Btw, I have no loans from pharmacy school nor undergrad.

 

[Goro]

Hello @Goro,
Would you advise not to get a second undergrad degree? Or is DIY-post bacc better? I am torn between the two. It’s not about the number of degrees per se. it is just a second undergrad degree like in Biochemistry would be considered a separate GPA and becomes a sort of a clean slate. It does not add to the previous undergrad degree. Btw, I have no loans from pharmacy school nor undergrad.

2nd UG degree = 4 years. That's overkill.

 

[School2024]

Goro,
My sGPA=3.43, cGPA=3.6,MCAT=515 retake..I got 1 interview..so am doing DIY post bac for this summer..iam MN resident..any tips and advise would be appreciated.thanks in advance

 

[Goro]

Goro,
My sGPA=3.43, cGPA=3.6,MCAT=515 retake..I got 1 interview..so am doing DIY post bac for this summer..iam MN resident..any tips and advise would be appreciated.thanks in advance

Work on interview skills!

 

[akg0119]

Hi @Goro - how do you suggest using LizzyM/WARS for reinventors? My undergrad sci GPA is a 3.3 (including ~a year of postbacc work at a 3.98) and I have a 3.97 SMP. Should I average the two? Thank you.

 

[Goro]

Hi @Goro - how do you suggest using LizzyM/WARS for reinventors? My undergrad sci GPA is a 3.3 (including ~a year of postbacc work at a 3.98) and I have a 3.97 SMP. Should I average the two? Thank you.

Nope. Use the SMP and the postbac. It's no longer about the cGPA

 

[livermeatballs]

@Goro , was wondering if you could help me out.
Currently, my uGPA is 3.0 and sGPA 2.9.
Over the past year I retook physics I,II and orgo I,II (as a post bacc) for a total of 3.67.

I was accepted to a few different post bacc and SMPs. I am having trouble deciding between an SMP (established and highly regarded program), or a post bacc program that would count exclusively towards undergrad GPA. If I were to get a 4.0 in the post bacc, I could bring my sGPA up to a maximum of 3.1-3.2. I am not sure if this is worth it, or if I should just go with the SMP.

 

[Goro]

@Goro , was wondering if you could help me out.
Currently, my uGPA is 3.0 and sGPA 2.9.
Over the past year I retook physics I,II and orgo I,II (as a post bacc) for a total of 3.67.

I was accepted to a few different post bacc and SMPs. I am having trouble deciding between an SMP (established and highly regarded program), or a post bacc program that would count exclusively towards undergrad GPA. If I were to get a 4.0 in the post bacc, I could bring my sGPA up to a maximum of 3.1-3.2. I am not sure if this is worth it, or if I should just go with the SMP.

I lean to SMPs as they're high risk but high reward.

Postbacc programs are more for career changers. What does your program offer in terms of courses?

If they offer med school-like courses, like anatiny and pharm, then its really an SMP, whether you get a certificate or a MS.

 

[livermeatballs]

I lean to SMPs as they're high risk but high reward.

Postbacc programs are more for career changers. What does your program offer in terms of courses?

If they offer med school-like courses, like anatiny and pharm, then its really an SMP, whether you get a certificate or a MS.

Thank you. The post bac program courses include biochem, genetics, molecular and cellular, anatomy, physiology, etc. The courses are curated specifically for the post bacc program, but some are taught by med school faculty.

If I were to successfully complete the SMP, would a usGPA of 2.9 automatically screen me out of many schools? The automatic screen is my biggest concern.

 

[Goro]

Thank you. The post bac program courses include biochem, genetics, molecular and cellular, anatomy, physiology, etc. The courses are curated specifically for the post bacc program, but some are taught by med school faculty.

If I were to successfully complete the SMP, would a usGPA of 2.9 automatically screen me out of many schools? The automatic screen is my biggest concern.

You might indeed be auto screened out at some schools.

This Is why an SMP at a host med school can be advantageous, especially with a good linkage.

 

[livermeatballs]

You might indeed be auto screened out at some schools.

This Is why an SMP at a host med school can be advantageous, especially with a good linkage.

SMP is hosted by a med school. According to my calculations, an A in one 4 credit class will bring my sGPA to a 3.0. Thinking my best best bet is to find an undergrad summer science course and then start SMP in the fall.

 

[Goro]

SMP is hosted by a med school. According to my calculations, an A in one 4 credit class will bring my sGPA to a 3.0. Thinking my best best bet is to find an undergrad summer science course and then start SMP in the fall.

How is linkage at said med school?

 

[livermeatballs]

How is linkage at said med school?

It’s BU MAMS, so no actual linkage, just being put into a separate applicant pool when you apply. I was waitlisted for Temple ACMS, and am doing whatever I can to get accepted because that is the most guaranteed linkage.

 

[jac697]

I'm a UW student as well, I'm confused about what you mean by this grading scale? How is the UW grading scale different?
I got a 2.5 in a class, according to UW it's a B- (UW scale). But some sources say it's technically a C or C+. So what should I record it as?

@jac697

What I've found is that AMCAS will convert your numerical GPA to letter grades (they now have a scale that's practically identical to the one at UW). Caveat is that, for example, a 2.9-3.2 (or 3.1?) is a B. If you get a 2.9, you lucked out and your gpa will be raised by .01 and vice versa. So essentially, your gpa can be a little different. Mine turned out to be lower

 

[green0902]

@Goro hi!! I was reading your reinvention guide a few days ago and saw that you recommended a 3.7 for SMP. I was wondering, is a 3.68 alright? I know this sounds like such a neurotic and stupid question but I don’t know if this is considered splitting hairs or not. I had also completed a previous graduate degree in the hard sciences and together with this SMP I will have a 3.85 (69 credits), will adcom be viewing the grad GPA together or separately? Thank you and I apologize for any neuroticism!

 

[Goro]

@Goro hi!! I was reading your reinvention guide a few days ago and saw that you recommended a 3.7 for SMP. I was wondering, is a 3.68 alright? I know this sounds like such a neurotic and stupid question but I don’t know if this is considered splitting hairs or not. I had also completed a previous graduate degree in the hard sciences and together with this SMP I will have a 3.85 (69 credits), will adcom be viewing the grad GPA together or separately? Thank you and I apologize for any neuroticism!

Should be OK, especially for DO.

and yes the grad GPA is seen separately. That's the whole point.

 

[green0902]

Should be OK, especially for DO.

and yes the grad GPA is seen separately. That's the whole point.

Gotcha!! Thanks!! Oh yes I guess my question was not phrased right but I meant to ask if the SMP GPA and the other masters GPA would be viewed together or separately? Just because my total grad GPA is better than the SMP alone. Thank you!

 

[Goro]

Gotcha!! Thanks!! Oh yes I guess my question was not phrased right but I meant to ask if the SMP GPA and the other masters GPA would be viewed together or separately? Just because my total grad GPA is better than the SMP alone. Thank you!

gGPA will be seen as a unit.

 

[green0902]

gGPA will be seen as a unit.

Thank you thank you!!

 

[kenykj49]

Hey Reinventer Fam,

I wanted to post some of my progress and hopefully get some feedback as begin to put together my school list. I'm graduating in a few months from a small state school after taking a few extra semesters of classes to boost my GPA. Here is an analysis of my trends:

Note, my "senior" year consists of 92.5 credits (3.937 GPA). I did not categorize these as post-bacc since I never actually graduated

MCAT: 514 (129/126/128/131)

EC Category	Hours	Description
Paid Clinical	~3,000+	Scribe (Leadership Position, chief scribe) ED and Oncology/Hematology
Non-Clinical Volunteering	~300	Crisis Text Line, TA (EMR), Patient Advocate, Teaching English Abroad, Habitat for Humanity, Organic Chemistry Tutor
Clinical Volunteering	Current	Red Cross, EMT
Research	None

I am planning to apply broadly next cycle; obviously DO schools are on the table. Do I have a shot at MD schools?

 

[Goro]

Hey Reinventer Fam,
:

1. Should I keep an SMP on the table? At this point, additional undergraduate/post-bacc credits are barely denting my GPA. Should I plan to attend an SMP if I don't get in next cycle?

2. Realistically, what schools should I be considering? Should I be strictly applying DO/low tier MD or do I have a shot at mid-tier MD?

3. Would finding research opportunities significantly benefit my application or should I focus on creating a service-oriented app?

Any other insights appreciated. This Peace.

1. Yes
2. Impossible to answer without an MCAT score
3. As many of the schools that rewarrd reinvention, strongly suggest that you go for service, rather than research.

 

[Goro]

Hi @Goro, I am a rising senior at a U.S. undergrad and am a Canadian citizen.
- Following my freshman year, I experienced several personal difficulties that affected my studies. I started my freshman year off relatively well and had an overall g.p.a. of 3.75. My sophomore year, my g.p.a. trended downwards with things exacerbating in the first semester of my junior year with a C. I was able to turn things around this second semester (3.83 g.p.a.). My cumulative g.p.a. is a 3.53 and my science g.p.a is a 3.38 right now. I plan on continuing to work hard and hopefully will end my last year with a strong upward trend.
I am a double major (Chemistry and International Relations) with a minor in Biology. I expect to submit two honors theses by the time I graduate (not sure if this could help me in any way but I'm doing it because I'm passionate about both of these areas).

In terms of extracurriculars:
-I've been a part of a research lab for over 2 years - with two publications prepared (I'm not sure when they will be released since the pandemic has put a pause on our work)
-Volunteer in the local hospital (over 1 year); as a doula; and just began volunteering at another nearby hospital
-I also have some non-clinical volunteering experience
-I also work three jobs - all based on teaching science courses / peer coaching
-I am also on the executive board of two student organizations (not sure how much this matters?)
**also the member of several other orgs (outside of uni.)
-I am also working on job shadowing as things progress and better
- I'm studying to take the MCAT this coming August.

I know that I have dug myself a deep hole with my g.p.a. which is especially difficult due to my citizenship status. My aspiration is still to apply and attend a medical school in the U.S. and I was wondering if you had any thoughts about the likelihood of this? I've also given thought to DO's, but my main goal is still an MD.
I was planning on doing an SMP or postbacc (or potentially a Masters in Chemistry) to help boost my credentials - of these do you think there are any that would give me a competitive edge?

Thank you for your help!

All I can speak to is the DO world, and for that, target those schools that accept Canadians, especially UNECOM and MSUCOM.

I don't have any knowledge about Canadian reinvention for MD

 

[blueflowers122]

Is it beneficial to repeat Precalculus (1.3 gpa) and Calculus 2 (1.4 gpa) (D+)? I repeated Calculus 1 already (3.1 gpa). I'm asking because I know some medical schools do not care that much about Math.

Or should I focus more on taking upper level science/BCMP courses and aim to get As in them?

 

[Shotapp]

Is it beneficial to repeat Precalculus (1.3 gpa) and Calculus 2 (1.4 gpa) (D+)? I repeated Calculus 1 already (3.1 gpa). I'm asking because I know some medical schools do not care that much about Math.

Or should I focus more on taking upper level science/BCMP courses and aim to get As in them?

Focus more on taking upper level science courses.

 

[BridgeyC]

Hi @Goro and anyone else who might have some insight,

I'm a "reinventer" who's already spent 6 years reinventing and am at a crossroads of deciding whether to keep pushing or cut my losses and get a life.
I'm:
-33 years old
-UC Berkeley biology BA, graduated 2009, undergrad total GPA 2.78 but upward trend with over 3.5 senior year. In high school I loved biology and thought about becoming a doctor, had awesome grades/SAT/AP etc, could have been on the road there. Unfortunately, my family's mindset was "college is time to get a job and just get the degree, grades don't matter as long as you get the degree, graduate education is for rich people who just want to stay in school forever and never get a real job." So of course I was extra dumb and just worked at a campus job that did nothing for me career-wise. Never did research or anything that would look good on a med school app. Regretting my entire undergrad experience immensely now.

I worked in random admin/corporate jobs for first few years out of college and hated every moment of it. 6 years ago decided I was going to turn things around and go for the med school dream. So since then:
- Quit corporate job and started working as an ED scribe/volunteering
-7000+ clinical experience hours in 3 different EDs, multiple leadership roles, starting new scribe programs, etc
- Multiple years of volunteering in medical and nonmedical community programs
- Wilderness medicine certified, handful of shadowing experiences in other specialties
- Great LORs
-MCAT 513 (took it in 2017, so it's expiring and would have to retake)
-No research which I know is a huge detriment
-Applied at least twice, some 3 times, to pretty much every post-bacc in CA, never got into any of them
-Decided to do a DIY post-bacc with mix of community college and UC Berkeley Extension classes: 37 units, 3.8 GPA
- Have done 3 application cycles, both MD/DO, 30-ish schools each time, was very realistic in my school choices due to my stats, always made sure I had new experiences each cycle to show improvement
- Worked with a very expensive advisor program for my 3rd application cycle, revamped my entire application and essays.
- On 3rd cycle, I finally got my ONE AND ONLY interview out of all 3 cycles (yay!!!) at a new CA MD school, CUSM. Again, worked with expensive advisor program on interview prep.
- Got waitlisted, was finally hoping to start med school within the month. Just got the final "sorry but no" email this week.

As a backup, I also applied to CUSM's one-year MBS program (you get an automatic interview for the med school if you have > 3.2 GPA after 1st semester). I thought since I already interviewed for their med school, that I'd have a fighting chance for the MBS. I contacted them after I got the rejection from the med school, unfortunately my application has been placed on administrative hold because my undergrad GPA was lower than their preferred GPA (a 3.0), so that's sounding like a "no" as well.

I talked with my advisor, she said if I want to move forward I need to fix the two major holes in my application: fix the GPA with a formal master's and get solid research experience.

I fear that my undergrad GPA, even with the DIY post-bacc improvement, may forever bar me from even getting into a special master's or formal post bacc. Is the CA post-bacc and special master's system just flooded with already fairly competitive CA pre-meds? Should I try other MBSs that are associated with med schools?

I've gotten more clinical hours than I'll ever need, so now ideally I'd look for a job close enough to research that I could maybe schmooze my way into getting someone who actually does research to let me shadow them or pick their brain. I know this will be difficult enough without any connections or experience in research, and I need something full time that can pay rent. No more luxury of interning for free at this point in my life.

Does spending several more years trying to improve myself, shelling out what little money I have, with no guarantee of eventual success, just sound like beating a dead horse at this point? Or has anyone made it after being a 3+ re-applicant? I don't know anyone else who's been in a similar position, so I have no reference of how one moves forward from here. Thanks for reading my giant rant.

 

[Goro]

Hi @Goro and anyone else who might have some insight,


Does spending several more years trying to improve myself, shelling out what little money I have, with no guarantee of eventual success, just sound like beating a dead horse at this point? Or has anyone made it after being a 3+ re-applicant? I don't know anyone else who's been in a similar position, so I have no reference of how one moves forward from here. Thanks for reading my giant rant.

Forget research. SMP or bust now.

 

[BridgeyC]

Forget research. SMP or bust now.

Thanks for replying. I think it's likely too late to apply to any other SMPs for this fall, which will force me to stop and regroup/rethink for the rest of the year, but that's probably for the best.

 

[B4IZ]

Hi @Goro and anyone that can provide some advice:

I'm a reinventer, and would like some advice to see if I'm in the right direction given my stats or if I need to change course anywhere:

- URM (African American Female), majored in cell and molecular biology and graduated 2019 with a cGPA 2.93 and sGPA of 2.4
- Was diagnosed with a medical condition summer of my sophomore year that required monthly appts and constant bloodwork (I had to skip class or leave early often to make appts/labwork to catch the bus into the city). Condition didn't get better, and started to affect my eyes and blood pressure. All in all by the beginning of my senior year, my specialist was looking at surgery since I was in remission 1x and then relapsed.
- Didn't have the best study habits (learned this during freshman year; while I was a high-performing HS student, I tanked 1st year) -- but sought out an academic coach and tutoring but with everything going on with my health and financials, it made it hard to stay afloat
- My transcript does include retakes

In addition:
- Worked 2 jobs as the time (one of them was an on-campus job)
- About 975-1000 hours of research experience: I got accepted into a research fellowship in summer 2018 and presented a scientific poster focused in genomics/computational biology and was invited to be a undergrad researcher in the lab (2nd job). My PI also told me I was published, as a graduate researcher in my lab required my research in order to do hers
- Great ECs - including 2 leadership positions, both focused on diversity and inclusion in higher education
- 100 hours of clinical volunteering
- 200-300 non-clinical volunteering
- Once I graduated, took a gap year and became a outpatient medical scribe, equaling 1000 hours
- I was supposed to start shadowing this summer as well, but then COVID happened

I knew I had to do some sort of post-bacc and I wasn't sure if I could do the DIY post-bacc and the time so I began applying to formal post-baccs and got accepted into several of them. Now I'm weighing my options between Hofstra and Elms College. Both programs are a year long. Elms provided me with a schedule for the year that includes: Anatomy and Physiology I and II with labs, Cell Biology, Cancer Bio, Healthcare Ethics, General Physics I and II (these would be retakes), General Chem II and Orgo 2 (retakes) equaling 29 credits that would go towards my uGPA

I applied to 1 SMP but I haven't heard an admission decision yet but I'm taking it as a silent rejection.

I haven't taken the MCAT yet but given my stats, I've already started light studying for it since the two programs anticipate I would take the MCAT next year

I guess I'm nervous that with my stats and even with the post-bacc, it still wouldn't be enough to apply? I know that sGPA is horrid and it would take a LONG time to bring it up to at least a 3.0. I would like to get into an MD school but considering both MD/DO. I wanted to create a school list using MSAR since I was approved for FAP but I'm not sure they detail which schools value redemption? Also I'm from RI so the only IS med school here is Brown. Thanks for reading.

 

[Goro]

Hi @Goro and anyone that can provide some advice:

I'm a reinventer, and would like some advice to see if I'm in the right direction given my stats or if I need to change course anywhere:

- URM (African American Female), majored in cell and molecular biology and graduated 2019 with a cGPA 2.93 and sGPA of 2.4
- Was diagnosed with a medical condition summer of my sophomore year that required monthly appts and constant bloodwork (I had to skip class or leave early often to make appts/labwork to catch the bus into the city). Condition didn't get better, and started to affect my eyes and blood pressure. All in all by the beginning of my senior year, my specialist was looking at surgery since I was in remission 1x and then relapsed.
- Didn't have the best study habits (learned this during freshman year; while I was a high-performing HS student, I tanked 1st year) -- but sought out an academic coach and tutoring but with everything going on with my health and financials, it made it hard to stay afloat
- My transcript does include retakes

In addition:
- Worked 2 jobs as the time (one of them was an on-campus job)
- About 975-1000 hours of research experience: I got accepted into a research fellowship in summer 2018 and presented a scientific poster focused in genomics/computational biology and was invited to be a undergrad researcher in the lab (2nd job). My PI also told me I was published, as a graduate researcher in my lab required my research in order to do hers
- Great ECs - including 2 leadership positions, both focused on diversity and inclusion in higher education
- 100 hours of clinical volunteering
- 200-300 non-clinical volunteering
- Once I graduated, took a gap year and became a outpatient medical scribe, equaling 1000 hours
- I was supposed to start shadowing this summer as well, but then COVID happened

I knew I had to do some sort of post-bacc and I wasn't sure if I could do the DIY post-bacc and the time so I began applying to formal post-baccs and got accepted into several of them. Now I'm weighing my options between Hofstra and Elms College. Both programs are a year long. Elms provided me with a schedule for the year that includes: Anatomy and Physiology I and II with labs, Cell Biology, Cancer Bio, Healthcare Ethics, General Physics I and II (these would be retakes), General Chem II and Orgo 2 (retakes) equaling 29 credits that would go towards my uGPA

I applied to 1 SMP but I haven't heard an admission decision yet but I'm taking it as a silent rejection.

I haven't taken the MCAT yet but given my stats, I've already started light studying for it since the two programs anticipate I would take the MCAT next year

I guess I'm nervous that with my stats and even with the post-bacc, it still wouldn't be enough to apply? I know that sGPA is horrid and it would take a LONG time to bring it up to at least a 3.0. I would like to get into an MD school but considering both MD/DO. I wanted to create a school list using MSAR since I was approved for FAP but I'm not sure they detail which schools value redemption? Also I'm from RI so the only IS med school here is Brown. Thanks for reading.

Giving you a school list without seeing how you do in the post bacc, and without an MCAT score is an exercise in futility. Once you have these data, then I will be happy to advise.

The 3.0 cut off is not an automatic death sentence. Many schools will put your application into a different pile to be looked at later. This is the pile that contains Diamonds in the Rough and other applicants who would normally be screened out.

 

[B4IZ]

Giving you a school list without seeing how you do in the post bacc, and without an MCAT score is an exercise in futility. Once you have these data, then I will be happy to advise.

The 3.0 cut off is not an automatic death sentence. Many schools will put your application into a different pile to be looked at later. This is the pile that contains Diamonds in the Rough and other applicants who would normally be screened out.

Thanks for replying! I figured it wouldn't make the most sense to make a concrete school list without having an MCAT score or GPA from my post-bacc, too many hypotheticals. Thanks!

 

[AlphaRowan]

Hey Goro. Thank you for helping people on here. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on my situation.

I am in my 30’s and need to reinvent myself before applying to medical school. My AMCAS CGPA is 2.31, if I calculated that correctly. I didn’t graduate from college so a SMP is not an option.

My best shot at gpa repair is to start over with a new undergrad degree, right? My plan is to graduate with a 4.0 to drag my abysmal 2.31 CGPA over the 3.0 hump.

AMCAS gpa calculation by year:
Freshman: 1.854
Sophmore: 2.159
57 quarter credits at an associates degree level college, entered as junior and senior year grades: 2.40

My calculations could be incorrect because I calculated my grades from A.A. grades as junior/senior level.

My new bachelor’s degree will be completed in Canada which is where I currently live. I’d apply to both Canadian and U.S. medical schools.

Details about my academic history in case anyone wants to know: Went to college in the U.S. straight out of high school in 2005. Didn’t take school seriously, didn’t know who I was or what I wanted in life, transferred around to different schools before eventually withdrawing from school. I can’t change the past but I’m not that person anymore. I‘m hoping four solid years of stellar grades will be good enough for the grades section of my applications.

Thanks.

 

[Hypertrophy22]

Hey Goro,

I posted a separate thread that I now realize could have just been a reply here. You also gave a lot of great guidance in your original post, so thank you for that.
I'm attempting to construct a DIY post-bacc that makes the most sense. I also don't want to spend more than a year taking and retaking classes before applying to a program, so I'll do what I have to if this is possible.

I'm 5 years out of undergrad- during this time I've worked as a medical scribe and hired and trained a few dozen new scribes as well.

During undergrad, my school originally had a quarter system, so 2 semesters were split into 3 courses. On this system I got:
Gen Chem 1: C
Gen Chem 2: D
Gen Chem 3: A
Am I doomed to retaking the entire Gen Chem sequence because of the D in the second of three courses?

On semester system: Organic 1 C, Organic 2 D. (The first was a retake after getting a C in Organic Chem 1 on the quarter system, F in Organic Chem 2 and withdrawing from Org. Chem 3). Should I retake both 1 and 2 at this point?

I know you generally recommend not to retake C's, but I was curious about my gen chem situation.
I also figured that retaking the year of Organic Chem and acing it 5 years later and after those horrible grades and retakes would be looked highly upon even though I did already get a C in Org Ch 1.

Sorry for the lengthy post. Thanks for taking the time to read.

 

[Goro]

Hey Goro. Thank you for helping people on here. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on my situation.

I am in my 30’s and need to reinvent myself before applying to medical school. My AMCAS CGPA is 2.31, if I calculated that correctly. I didn’t graduate from college so a SMP is not an option.

My best shot at gpa repair is to start over with a new undergrad degree, right? My plan is to graduate with a 4.0 to drag my abysmal 2.31 CGPA over the 3.0 hump.

AMCAS gpa calculation by year:
Freshman: 1.854
Sophmore: 2.159
57 quarter credits at an associates degree level college, entered as junior and senior year grades: 2.40

My calculations could be incorrect because I calculated my grades from A.A. grades as junior/senior level.

My new bachelor’s degree will be completed in Canada which is where I currently live. I’d apply to both Canadian and U.S. medical schools.

Details about my academic history in case anyone wants to know: Went to college in the U.S. straight out of high school in 2005. Didn’t take school seriously, didn’t know who I was or what I wanted in life, transferred around to different schools before eventually withdrawing from school. I can’t change the past but I’m not that person anymore. I‘m hoping four solid years of stellar grades will be good enough for the grades section of my applications.

Thanks.

Yup, start from scratch

 

[Goro]

Hey Goro,

I posted a separate thread that I now realize could have just been a reply here. You also gave a lot of great guidance in your original post, so thank you for that.
I'm attempting to construct a DIY post-bacc that makes the most sense. I also don't want to spend more than a year taking and retaking classes before applying to a program, so I'll do what I have to if this is possible.

I'm 5 years out of undergrad- during this time I've worked as a medical scribe and hired and trained a few dozen new scribes as well.
cGPA 3.01
BCPM GPA 2.43

During undergrad, my school originally had a quarter system, so 2 semesters were split into 3 courses. On this system I got:
Gen Chem 1: C
Gen Chem 2: D
Gen Chem 3: A
Am I doomed to retaking the entire Gen Chem sequence because of the D in the second of three courses?

On semester system: Organic 1 C, Organic 2 D. (The first was a retake after getting a C in Organic Chem 1 on the quarter system, F in Organic Chem 2 and withdrawing from Org. Chem 3). Should I retake both 1 and 2 at this point?

Other than these I got at least C's in the other pre-reqs (note: Calc 1: A, Calc 2: D. Not sure how important retaking the Calc is).

I also have never formally taken Biochem, although I've studied it for MCAT and taken Cell bio and Cell & Molecular bio (C, B)
Either way Biochem will definitely be part of my post-bacc.

I know you generally recommend not to retake C's, but I was curious about my gen chem situation.
I also figured that retaking the year of Organic Chem and acing it 5 years later and after those horrible grades and retakes would be looked highly upon even though I did already get a C in Org Ch 1.

P.S. I was recently rejected by a formal biomed master's program, which is why I want to start a DIY post-bacc this year instead.
Essentially I'm debating which classes to add to my post-bacc list considering all this.
Sorry for the lengthy post. Thanks for taking the time to read.

You're going to have to ask some Admissions Deans about the Ds

 

[Goro]

Hey Goro,
Looking for some advice. Graduated May 2020 from T20. science GPA 3.05, cum 3.25, MCAT - 518 from June 2020. Started college with poor study habits at age 17, but finished last semester with 4.0 Deciding between 3 SMP acceptances - Georgetown, Cincinnati SMP and Loyola MSMP - paid deposit to Georgetown because other schools were waiting on MCAT score but have read mixed reviews on Georgetown, NYS resident, not interested in changing state residencies at this time - seems to be encouraged by Cincinnati. Any advice on which program could offer the best shot for MD school admission, and was looking for your list of medical schools that were willing to look favorably at students who have done SMPs. Thank you in advance.

Pick the program that:
1) is cheaper
2) has the best linkage
3) is the shortest

 

[ellewoods1234]

Hey @Goro I just got my MCAT score back and am hoping to get your opinion. I made a relatively balanced 513 (retake from an expired 510) which I was slightly disappointed with since it was lower than my full lengths and I was hoping to make a 515+ because of my GPA. I am registered to start a full-time DIY post bacc this year (all science classes) and my projected GPAs would be roughly 3.4+ cumulative and 3.3 science after the year of classes. I do have a 3.9 cumulative and science GPA for my senior year of undergrad so I'm hoping one additional year of full time science courses would be enough. I am planning to apply the 2021/2022 cycle. I do currently have ~2,500 hours of misc paid employment (waitress, customer service, etc), ~7,500 hours of paid clinical (scribe, medical assistant), ~500 hours of clinical volunteering, ~100 hours non clinical volunteering. My question is do you think the 513 is too low to be a successful reinventor? Do you think I need more than 1 year of full-time coursework? I am SES disadvantaged, first generation student from a medically underserved area if that matters.