Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

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@Goro, I have a DIY post bacc dilemma and need some advice.

I'm considering UCLA extension, and it is only offering a few upper divs (400+ courses) that I can take: Pathophysiology (I enrolled in this), Immunology, Developmental Bio, and Endocrinology. Problem 1, I have already taken both immunology/dev bio in my 4th year of undergrad and gotten A's. In fact, I have already taken most of the upper div bio courses you listed in the original post since I was a human bio major. Would it be useless for me to take these again? Problem 2, endocrinology is online only. Aren't online classes looked down upon?

Should I consider taking UCLA extension classes in combination with another local 4 year like Cal State Fullerton since UCLA has limited upper div options? UCI is not an option for me since I did my undergrad here. I really screwed up by not applying to SMP's before deadlines were over so DIY is my only option right now.

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@Goro, I have a DIY post bacc dilemma and need some advice.

I'm considering UCLA extension, and it is only offering a few upper divs (400+ courses) that I can take: Pathophysiology (I enrolled in this), Immunology, Developmental Bio, and Endocrinology. Problem 1, I have already taken both immunology/dev bio in my 4th year of undergrad and gotten A's. In fact, I have already taken most of the upper div bio courses you listed in the original post since I was a human bio major. Would it be useless for me to take these again? Problem 2, endocrinology is online only. Aren't online classes looked down upon?

Should I consider taking UCLA extension classes in combination with another local 4 year like Cal State Fullerton since UCLA has limited upper div options? UCI is not an option for me since I did my undergrad here. I really screwed up by not applying to SMP's before deadlines were over so DIY is my only option right now.
Take different courses elsewhere, and avoid online.
 
@Goro, would love your input on my situation.
I plan on applying next cycle, but I graduated in May 2018 with around a 3.50cGPA and about 3.44sGPA as well as a decent upward trend (3.2, 3.66, 3.39, 3.81). Got my MCAT score back last week and was pleasantly surprised with a 515 (129/127/130/129). My ECs as of right now are 70hrs shadowing, 70hrs clinical volunteering, 600hrs nonclinical volunteering, and 500hrs of clinical research. I currently have a full time job in clinical research and plan on doing around 4-6 hours of clinical volunteering as well as 4-6 hours of nonclinical volunteering each week during my gap years.

Do you think I would benefit from taking a few postbacc science courses this year to raise my sGPA and maximize my chances for an MD school acceptance next cycle? I will most likely apply MD/DO next year, but want to give MD my best shot before deciding to go to an osteopathic school.
 
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@Goro, would love your input on my situation.
I plan on applying next cycle, but I graduated in May 2018 with around a 3.50cGPA and about 3.44sGPA as well as a decent upward trend (3.2, 3.66, 3.39, 3.81). Got my MCAT score back last week and was pleasantly surprised with a 515 (129/127/130/129). My ECs as of right now are 70hrs shadowing, 70hrs clinical volunteering, 600hrs nonclinical volunteering, and 500hrs of clinical research. I currently have a full time job in clinical research and plan on doing around 4-6 hours of clinical volunteering as well as 4-6 hours of nonclinical volunteering each week during my gap years.

Do you think I would benefit from taking a few postbacc science courses this year to raise my sGPA and maximize my chances for an MD school acceptance next cycle? I will most likely apply MD/DO next year, but want to give MD my best shot before deciding to go to an osteopathic school.
Yes. A single good SR year won't be enough for reinvention. Also, get in more clinical hours!
 
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His UW trend might be weak, but isn't a 3.44 sGPA sort of within range for some MD schools, especially with his 515?
 
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His UW trend might be weak, but isn't a 3.44 sGPA sort of within range for some MD schools, especially with his 515?
Ahh, I didn't notice that. My apologies OP!

Invest in MSAR online, and Target schools where you are gpas are above the 10th percentile.

Pay very careful attention to the in-state vs. Out of state interviews and acceptance ratios
 
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Ahh, I didn't notice that. My apologies OP!

Invest in MSAR online, and Target schools where you are gpas are above the 10th percentile.

Pay very careful attention to the in-state vs. Out of state interviews and acceptance ratios

No problem! Thanks for your input Goro! So do you think that postbacc classes are not necessary? My plan as of now is to get in as many clinical and nonclinical volunteering hours as I can while working a full-time job before applying next cycle.
 
No problem! Thanks for your input Goro! So do you think that postbacc classes are not necessary? My plan as of now is to get in as many clinical and nonclinical volunteering hours as I can while working a full-time job before applying next cycle.
If you get no love this cycle, go for SMP next cycle. But have DO schools on the list this cycle.
 
Hey @Goro , first and foremost thank you for making this thread and answering everyone's questions. I just needed some insight on my particular situation.

Would the DIY post bacc route be worth it even if my sGPA would be slightly below the 3.0 gpa threshold? Given my current trajectory and if everything goes right, after 40 credits of DIY upper level sciences I would end up with a 3.05 cGPA and 2.91 sGPA. Do you think I would I get any love from DO schools or would I be auto screened? I'm asking this because I'm wondering if I'd be better suited doing a Masters/Post bacc such as LECOM instead of testing out the application cycle. MCAT is 505 and I have pretty solid EC's and LOR's.
 
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Hey @Goro , first and foremost thank you for making this thread and answering everyone's questions. I just needed some insight on my particular situation.

Would the DIY post bacc route be worth it even if my sGPA would be slightly below the 3.0 gpa threshold? Given my current trajectory and if everything goes right, after 40 credits of DIY upper level sciences I would end up with a 3.05 cGPA and 2.91 sGPA. Do you think I would I get any love from DO schools or would I be auto screened? I'm asking this because I'm wondering if I'd be better suited doing a Masters/Post bacc such as LECOM instead of testing out the application cycle. MCAT is 505 and I have pretty solid EC's and LOR's.
The 3.0 bar seems to be real at many schools, including mine. Hence, the SMP is a more realistic pathway to success.
 
Hello to all looking into this thread!

I was recently accepted ED to a northeast MD program after completing their associated SMP. I am beyond ecstatic and just relieved that someone externally validated all the hard work that I put in in the past 3 years. Without getting into specifics, both my cGPA/sGPA were <2.5 but my SMP was >3.7. MCAT 516.

Best of luck all, if you have a strong goal and are aware of who you are and what you have to offer, preservere and you will get to where you deserve to be.
 
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Hello to all looking into this thread!

I was recently accepted ED to a northeast MD program after completing their associated SMP. I am beyond ecstatic and just relieved that someone externally validated all the hard work that I put in in the past 3 years. Without getting into specifics, both my cGPA/sGPA were <2.5 but my SMP was >3.7. MCAT 516.

Best of luck all, if you have a strong goal and are aware of who you are and what you have to offer, preservere and you will get to where you deserve to be.

CONGRATS!!!!!!
 
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Hello to all looking into this thread!

I was recently accepted ED to a northeast MD program after completing their associated SMP. I am beyond ecstatic and just relieved that someone externally validated all the hard work that I put in in the past 3 years. Without getting into specifics, both my cGPA/sGPA were <2.5 but my SMP was >3.7. MCAT 516.

Best of luck all, if you have a strong goal and are aware of who you are and what you have to offer, preservere and you will get to where you deserve to be.
That is wonderful news. Congrats to you, and best of luck on your medical school journey.
 
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@Goro ,

Would you say this post applies to someone who has had a very bad gpa in the past, and had 4.0 for the last two years, but cant get the oGPA over 3.0? (barely 3.0..im looking 3.07....)
 
So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling.

But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take both time and money. And always remember that you’re in a marathon now, not a sprint. The following advice holds true for people considering MD and DO. I strongly recommend that you keep both in mind, and the latter is more tolerant of reinvention.

EDIT: An even better summary to the next paragraph is provided by the wise HomeSkool here: Simple rules for retaking courses

Here’s what you need to do :

a) IF you have F/D grades in the pre-reqs, retake them. You need to show that you can master this material, and it will help you for MCAT (assuming that you haven’t taken the MCAT). In addition, many schools require a C or higher grade in pre-reqs. Naturally, this will vary from school to school.

If you got C's, take some upper level science classes and ace them. There is no need to retake a C unless you are very weak on the material and you need it for MCAT. Never, ever retake a B or B-.

If the material was from a long time ago, and you got a B, but you feel you need a refresher for the MCAT, simply audit the course instead.

b) There are MD schools that reward reinvention. All DO schools do. The DO path will be a little easier, but both still require an investment of 1-2 years of not GPA repair, but of transcript repair.

c) The goal is NOT to raise your cGPA to a sky high level (for some people this is mathematically impossible), but rather show that the you of now is not the you of then, and that you can handle a medical school curriculum. So do not worry that your cGPA will be 3.2 upon applying after finishing your post-bac/GPA. Rising GPA trends are always looked highly upon, and many med schools weight the last 2-3 years more than the entire cGPA.

d) Thus, take 1-2 years of a DIY post-bac, or a 1 year SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Do well in either of these programs. A 3.5+ should suffice for a DO school, while 3.7+ will be needed for an MD school

e) in addition to d), your MCAT score will determine where to aim. I suggest:

513+ : MD schools

510+ : your state MD school and any DO school

505+: any DO school

500+: the newest DO schools

On top of these, get as much patient contact volunteering time in as possible. A trend I am seeing from SDNers who have received interviews from good schools and who also reinvented themselves, is that they have lots of clinical volunteering or employment...some even in the 1000s of hours.

As to the pluses and minuses of post-bac vs SMP:

A formal post-bac program is geared toward career switchers, and mostly provide the pre-reqs, and probably some MCAT advice/prep as well. You get faculty guidance in this and some programs seem to be feeders to med schools for non-trad students. They will cost more though.

Now, you can do the same thing on your own by simply taking continuing education courses at any nearby college. A four year school will be preferable to a community college (CC), but if costs are an issue, then a CC will be OK. This path is what is known here in SDN as the “DIY post-bac.” Costs will be less, but there’s no guidance.

What classes should one take in a DIY post-bac??? Things that mimic a medical school curriculum!

Anatomy
Physiology
Histology
Biostats
Cell Bio
Molecular Bio or Genetics
Biochem
Med Micro OR Bacteriology and/or Virology
Neuroscience
Immunology
Parasitology (if offered)
Pathology

An SMP (special master’s program) is one that offers medical school classes, or material that’s taught in medical school. These can be a backdoor into med school, and you get real advice from med school faculty (if given at a med school). Plus, you're a known quantity to the Adcom members, who will frequently be your SMP faculty. The down side is that the tuition will be more considerable. You may also have to relocate in order to attend one.

There are some two year SMPs, but I don’t see any advantage to these over one year programs.

Also, if you do poorly, your SMP degree is worthless, unless the program has an added-value component, like some research venue. Thus, SMPs are more high risk, but also high reward.

One final word of warning: Do NOT take the MCAT while enrolled in an SMP. We’ve seen students do this, and it leads to disaster. Some programs require an MCAT, so that solves the problem (although they may have a minimum score requirement!).

And remember, med schools aren’t going anywhere, and in fact, by the time you apply, several more will have opened their doors.

Good luck!
I just realized that with my past gpa (1.6 with no grade replacement) I cant get to above 3.0 even with 2 years of 4.0, even if I take 18 credits every semester and a few classes in the summer. That's if I could even get the straight a's.... do I still have hope? I did read your post in regards to reinvention, but will my apps even be looked at even with the reinvention if my overall gpa is 2.7~2.8? (this is assuming that I get a high mcat score, as my practice scores seem to come out pretty high. im planning on taking it soon)
 
I just realized that with my past gpa (1.6 with no grade replacement) I cant get to above 3.0 even with 2 years of 4.0, even if I take 18 credits every semester and a few classes in the summer. That's if I could even get the straight a's.... do I still have hope? I did read your post in regards to reinvention, but will my apps even be looked at even with the reinvention if my overall gpa is 2.7~2.8? (this is assuming that I get a high mcat score, as my practice scores seem to come out pretty high. im planning on taking it soon)
There are schools that will do this, especially with a good MCAT score.

Chances will be best with your state MD school and DO schools.
 
There are schools that will do this, especially with a good MCAT score.

Chances will be best with your state MD school and DO schools.
Would the person be screened out of some schools if the gpa is less than 3.0? @Goro
 
So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling.

But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take both time and money. And always remember that you’re in a marathon now, not a sprint. The following advice holds true for people considering MD and DO. I strongly recommend that you keep both in mind, and the latter is more tolerant of reinvention.

EDIT: An even better summary to the next paragraph is provided by the wise HomeSkool here: Simple rules for retaking courses

Here’s what you need to do :

a) IF you have F/D grades in the pre-reqs, retake them. You need to show that you can master this material, and it will help you for MCAT (assuming that you haven’t taken the MCAT). In addition, many schools require a C or higher grade in pre-reqs. Naturally, this will vary from school to school.

If you got C's, take some upper level science classes and ace them. There is no need to retake a C unless you are very weak on the material and you need it for MCAT. Never, ever retake a B or B-.

If the material was from a long time ago, and you got a B, but you feel you need a refresher for the MCAT, simply audit the course instead.

b) There are MD schools that reward reinvention. All DO schools do. The DO path will be a little easier, but both still require an investment of 1-2 years of not GPA repair, but of transcript repair.

c) The goal is NOT to raise your cGPA to a sky high level (for some people this is mathematically impossible), but rather show that the you of now is not the you of then, and that you can handle a medical school curriculum. So do not worry that your cGPA will be 3.2 upon applying after finishing your post-bac/GPA. Rising GPA trends are always looked highly upon, and many med schools weight the last 2-3 years more than the entire cGPA.

d) Thus, take 1-2 years of a DIY post-bac, or a 1 year SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Do well in either of these programs. A 3.5+ should suffice for a DO school, while 3.7+ will be needed for an MD school

e) in addition to d), your MCAT score will determine where to aim. I suggest:

513+ : MD schools

510+ : your state MD school and any DO school

505+: any DO school

500+: the newest DO schools

On top of these, get as much patient contact volunteering time in as possible. A trend I am seeing from SDNers who have received interviews from good schools and who also reinvented themselves, is that they have lots of clinical volunteering or employment...some even in the 1000s of hours.

As to the pluses and minuses of post-bac vs SMP:

A formal post-bac program is geared toward career switchers, and mostly provide the pre-reqs, and probably some MCAT advice/prep as well. You get faculty guidance in this and some programs seem to be feeders to med schools for non-trad students. They will cost more though.

Now, you can do the same thing on your own by simply taking continuing education courses at any nearby college. A four year school will be preferable to a community college (CC), but if costs are an issue, then a CC will be OK. This path is what is known here in SDN as the “DIY post-bac.” Costs will be less, but there’s no guidance.

What classes should one take in a DIY post-bac??? Things that mimic a medical school curriculum!

Anatomy
Physiology
Histology
Biostats
Cell Bio
Molecular Bio or Genetics
Biochem
Med Micro OR Bacteriology and/or Virology
Neuroscience
Immunology
Parasitology (if offered)
Pathology

An SMP (special master’s program) is one that offers medical school classes, or material that’s taught in medical school. These can be a backdoor into med school, and you get real advice from med school faculty (if given at a med school). Plus, you're a known quantity to the Adcom members, who will frequently be your SMP faculty. The down side is that the tuition will be more considerable. You may also have to relocate in order to attend one.

There are some two year SMPs, but I don’t see any advantage to these over one year programs.

Also, if you do poorly, your SMP degree is worthless, unless the program has an added-value component, like some research venue. Thus, SMPs are more high risk, but also high reward.

One final word of warning: Do NOT take the MCAT while enrolled in an SMP. We’ve seen students do this, and it leads to disaster. Some programs require an MCAT, so that solves the problem (although they may have a minimum score requirement!).

And remember, med schools aren’t going anywhere, and in fact, by the time you apply, several more will have opened their doors.

Good luck!

Awesome advice!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Hi, I was wondering if anyone could give me some hint about what to expect with my reinvention and stats. I applied this cycle, but late with the ok from school advisers kind of assuming I'd be a reapplicant next year.

In my thirties, terrible first try at undergrad social science major, F's, D's, W's, eventually dropped out. Went back while working full time finished with straight A's. Went to paramedic school, fell in love with medicine 4.0 for medic. DIY post bacc this year 4.0.

Final stats:
cGPA 2.98
sGPA 3.92 (would be a 4.0 except a lone B from literally 15 years ago)
MCAT 524
NYS resident
Not a URM (is there an abbreviation for that?)
A lot of EC's and hours in those EC's cause hey, I'm in my thirties, but probably nothing super remarkable in terms of prestige or anything. Non-academic research (anticorruption). Clinical hours upon hours cause I'm a paid and volly medic.
Initially I was just trying to get in anywhere that would take me, and I'm still probably cool with that, but it turns out I got a knack for science classes and standardized tests so I'm a little curious what's my ceiling?

Should I have waited a year? What schools should I have gone after? Where should I focus to make myself better? Any helpful thoughts please and thank you!
 
Hi, I was wondering if anyone could give me some hint about what to expect with my reinvention and stats. I applied this cycle, but late with the ok from school advisers kind of assuming I'd be a reapplicant next year.

In my thirties, terrible first try at undergrad social science major, F's, D's, W's, eventually dropped out. Went back while working full time finished with straight A's. Went to paramedic school, fell in love with medicine 4.0 for medic. DIY post bacc this year 4.0.

Final stats:
cGPA 2.98
sGPA 3.92 (would be a 4.0 except a lone B from literally 15 years ago)
MCAT 524
NYS resident
Not a URM (is there an abbreviation for that?)
A lot of EC's and hours in those EC's cause hey, I'm in my thirties, but probably nothing super remarkable in terms of prestige or anything. Non-academic research (anticorruption). Clinical hours upon hours cause I'm a paid and volly medic.
Initially I was just trying to get in anywhere that would take me, and I'm still probably cool with that, but it turns out I got a knack for science classes and standardized tests so I'm a little curious what's my ceiling?

Should I have waited a year? What schools should I have gone after? Where should I focus to make myself better? Any helpful thoughts please and thank you!
It's late in the cycle for MD; I really can't predict because you have a lot of confounders. BUT, it's not too late for DO. Still, a 524 MCAT is nothing to sneeze at. Chances for MD are probably best at yoru state schools

IF you get shut out this cycle, here is what you you should target next year:

Columbia
UCSF
Pitt
Duke
Case
Hofstra
Mayo
NYU
BU
U Miami
Your state schools
Any DO school
Wake
Loyola
Rush
Drxel
Netter
NYMC
Albany
Wayne State
SLU
GWU
EVMS
Gtown
Dartmouth
 
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It's late in the cycle for MD; I really can't predict because you have a lot of confounders. BUT, it's not too late for DO. Still, a 524 MCAT is nothing to sneeze at. Chances for MD are probably best at yoru state schools

IF you get shut out this cycle, here is what you you should target next year:

Columbia
UCSF
Pitt
Duke
Case
Hofstra
Mayo
NYU
BU
U Miami
Your state schools
Any DO school
Wake
Loyola
Rush
Drxel
Netter
NYMC
Albany
Wayne State
SLU
GWU
EVMS
Gtown
Dartmouth

Thank you!
 
Hey Goro,

I just saw this post and saw you mentioned doing a research MS is a bad move. Well, it's too late for me because I'm only a few credits from being done. My program advisors are telling me I'd have an awesome shot at PhD but they're all PhD themselves. Premed advisor has told me she's had success with her students in my situation before.

What do my chances look like here? I'm scared now that you mentioned regular science MS isn't as good.

-BS molecular bio top public uni, 2.8 GPA
-Currently in an MS in biochem at same top public uni, 18 credits done, four credits from research, 6 to go of electives, 3.87 GPA
-Doing well in my classes this term
-506 MCAT: 127, 126, 127, 126
-Scribing: 1000+ hours
-Hospital Volunteer: 200+ hours
-Research: 3000+ hours (drug discovery)
-Shadowing: 80+ hours
-Jobs: 2000+ hours
-Good extra-curriculars
-Told by schools who rejected me that my essays are great

Any input at all is good. Getting rejected from OOS DO and MD schools. No II as of October. No rejections in-state.
 
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Hey Goro,

I just saw this post and saw you mentioned doing a research MS is a bad move. Well, it's too late for me because I'm only a few credits from being done. My program advisors are telling me I'd have an awesome shot at PhD but they're all PhD themselves. Premed advisor has told me she's had success with her students in my situation before.

What do my chances look like here? I'm scared now that you mentioned regular science MS isn't as good.

-BS molecular bio top public uni, 2.8 GPA
-Currently in an MS in biochem at same top public uni, 18 credits done, four credits from research, 6 to go of electives, 3.87 GPA
-Doing well in my classes this term
-506 MCAT: 127, 126, 127, 126
-Scribing: 1000+ hours
-Hospital Volunteer: 200+ hours
-Research: 3000+ hours (drug discovery)
-Shadowing: 80+ hours
-Jobs: 2000+ hours
-Good extra-curriculars
-Told by schools who rejected me that my essays are great

Any input at all is good. Getting rejected from OOS DO and MD schools. No II as of October. No rejections in-state.
You should be fine for DO schools. If you live in a lucky state, I'd say there's a chance for MD. The bolded red is a given.
 
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You should be fine for DO schools. If you live in a lucky state, I'd say there's a chance for MD. The bolded red is a given.

Thank you for the input Goro! The MD schools here are plentiful and their MCAT scores are reasonable.

You're saying I'm lucky if I get an MD because of my MCAT and a lot of MD schools' philosophies towards reinvention, correct?
 
Thank you for the input Goro! The MD schools here are plentiful and their MCAT scores are reasonable.

You're saying I'm lucky if I get an MD because of my MCAT and a lot of MD schools' philosophies towards reinvention, correct?
No, lucky as in state schools favor the home team. Some really really favor the home team.
 
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No, lucky as in state schools favor the home team. Some really really favor the home team.
Goro,

You're the man (Idk if you're actually a man or not but whatever). THANK YOU!!

One more question: is it too late to keep applying to DO? My biggest problem with DO is their requirements for social sciences (only took psych) and the 3.0 grade hump (still at a 2.97). I only applied to 10 or so.

One more one more question: do DO schools generally favor the home-team for IS students?
Getting some rejections OOS for DO.

Just got my first rejection from my IS MD school and my head is spinning.
 
Goro,

You're the man (Idk if you're actually a man or not but whatever). THANK YOU!!

One more question: is it too late to keep applying to DO? My biggest problem with DO is their requirements for social sciences (only took psych) and the 3.0 grade hump (still at a 2.97). I only applied to 10 or so.

One more one more question: do DO schools generally favor the home-team for IS students?
Getting some rejections OOS for DO.

Just got my first rejection from my IS MD school and my head is spinning.
1) Nope
2) Only the state DO schools.
 
Question for Goro and others who may be enrolled in SMP:
I am still waiting for decisions from many medical schools, but I haven't got any II yet. So I am looking at other options, including SMP programs. I would like to wait till late November/early December to hear back from med schools. However, most of the SMP programs are already accepting applications and are rolling-admissions. Would it be too late to apply to an SMP program in December?
 
So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling.

But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take both time and money. And always remember that you’re in a marathon now, not a sprint. The following advice holds true for people considering MD and DO. I strongly recommend that you keep both in mind, and the latter is more tolerant of reinvention.

EDIT: An even better summary to the next paragraph is provided by the wise HomeSkool here: Simple rules for retaking courses

Here’s what you need to do :

a) IF you have F/D grades in the pre-reqs, retake them. You need to show that you can master this material, and it will help you for MCAT (assuming that you haven’t taken the MCAT). In addition, many schools require a C or higher grade in pre-reqs. Naturally, this will vary from school to school.

If you got C's, take some upper level science classes and ace them. There is no need to retake a C unless you are very weak on the material and you need it for MCAT. Never, ever retake a B or B-.

If the material was from a long time ago, and you got a B, but you feel you need a refresher for the MCAT, simply audit the course instead.

b) There are MD schools that reward reinvention. All DO schools do. The DO path will be a little easier, but both still require an investment of 1-2 years of not GPA repair, but of transcript repair.

c) The goal is NOT to raise your cGPA to a sky high level (for some people this is mathematically impossible), but rather show that the you of now is not the you of then, and that you can handle a medical school curriculum. So do not worry that your cGPA will be 3.2 upon applying after finishing your post-bac/GPA. Rising GPA trends are always looked highly upon, and many med schools weight the last 2-3 years more than the entire cGPA.

d) Thus, take 1-2 years of a DIY post-bac, or a 1 year SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Do well in either of these programs. A 3.5+ should suffice for a DO school, while 3.7+ will be needed for an MD school

e) in addition to d), your MCAT score will determine where to aim. I suggest:

513+ : MD schools

510+ : your state MD school and any DO school

505+: any DO school

500+: the newest DO schools

On top of these, get as much patient contact volunteering time in as possible. A trend I am seeing from SDNers who have received interviews from good schools and who also reinvented themselves, is that they have lots of clinical volunteering or employment...some even in the 1000s of hours.

As to the pluses and minuses of post-bac vs SMP:

A formal post-bac program is geared toward career switchers, and mostly provide the pre-reqs, and probably some MCAT advice/prep as well. You get faculty guidance in this and some programs seem to be feeders to med schools for non-trad students. They will cost more though.

Now, you can do the same thing on your own by simply taking continuing education courses at any nearby college. A four year school will be preferable to a community college (CC), but if costs are an issue, then a CC will be OK. This path is what is known here in SDN as the “DIY post-bac.” Costs will be less, but there’s no guidance.

What classes should one take in a DIY post-bac??? Things that mimic a medical school curriculum!

Anatomy
Physiology
Histology
Biostats
Cell Bio
Molecular Bio or Genetics
Biochem
Med Micro OR Bacteriology and/or Virology
Neuroscience
Immunology
Parasitology (if offered)
Pathology

An SMP (special master’s program) is one that offers medical school classes, or material that’s taught in medical school. These can be a backdoor into med school, and you get real advice from med school faculty (if given at a med school). Plus, you're a known quantity to the Adcom members, who will frequently be your SMP faculty. The down side is that the tuition will be more considerable. You may also have to relocate in order to attend one.

There are some two year SMPs, but I don’t see any advantage to these over one year programs.

Also, if you do poorly, your SMP degree is worthless, unless the program has an added-value component, like some research venue. Thus, SMPs are more high risk, but also high reward.

One final word of warning: Do NOT take the MCAT while enrolled in an SMP. We’ve seen students do this, and it leads to disaster. Some programs require an MCAT, so that solves the problem (although they may have a minimum score requirement!).

And remember, med schools aren’t going anywhere, and in fact, by the time you apply, several more will have opened their doors.

Good luck!
This is wonderful. Thank you for all this specific info and motivating this non-traditional applicant in case I don't in this cycle.
 
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I feel like I did everything on the list except with a more mediocre MCAT and a DIY post-bac instead of a SMP. Nonetheless, I have had incredible success! The wisdom on SDN is truly a treasure.


How long did it take you to do the DIY postbac? What schools were you accepted into? Thank you
 
Hi Goro, thanks for your post, it was quite reassuring.

I just finished my B.A. with a 2.5, without any prereqs, upper div Bio classes, or shadow/volunteer experience (was not originally in premed path). I'm looking to take a semester off, get my EMT cert, and take the next 2.5-3 years taking all the prereqs/3-4 upper div bio classes while working part time as an EMT and garnering as much volunteer experience as I can, with potentially a research summer. I'm planning to take gen bio 1/2, gen chem 1/2, orgo 1/2, physics 1/2 (i.e. the prereqs), a semester of English, stats, biochem 1/2, immunology, virology, and neurobiology (~70 units). What do you think about this path? Any advice on classes/DIY post bacc (would post-bacc length matter, as in would a 3-year post-bacc path be looked on unfavorably by adcomms)? Thank you!
 
Hi Goro, thanks for your post, it was quite reassuring.

I just finished my B.A. with a 2.5, without any prereqs, upper div Bio classes, or shadow/volunteer experience (was not originally in premed path). I'm looking to take a semester off, get my EMT cert, and take the next 2.5-3 years taking all the prereqs/3-4 upper div bio classes while working part time as an EMT and garnering as much volunteer experience as I can, with potentially a research summer. I'm planning to take gen bio 1/2, gen chem 1/2, orgo 1/2, physics 1/2 (i.e. the prereqs), a semester of English, stats, biochem 1/2, immunology, virology, and neurobiology (~70 units). What do you think about this path? Any advice on classes/DIY post bacc (would post-bacc length matter, as in would a 3-year post-bacc path be looked on unfavorably by adcomms)? Thank you!
Sounds like a good plan.
Length of post-bacc doesn't matter, as long as you do well.
Obviously, take classes that will help you for MCAT, and laos those that will mimic med school.

I have recommended classes listed in the OP.
 
Hi Goro, thanks for the post. I have a couple questions about transcript repair and post-baccs.

I have 4 failed classes (1 F and 3 NP's) sprinkled throughout my undergrad transcript. Is this "repairable"? The fact that I pretty much failed a class a year is really disheartening. Are there differences between an F and NP to a med school adcom? One NP was from my very last semester of college.

I'm going to start a 3-year post-bacc program soon of about 80 units. Is that too many units? Is there such a thing? The courses I'm going to be taking are the prereqs and some upper div chem/bio courses.

Again, thanks for taking the time to write this post!
 
I have 4 failed classes (1 F and 3 NP's) sprinkled throughout my undergrad transcript. Is this "repairable"?
Yes.

The fact that I pretty much failed a class a year is really disheartening. Are there differences between an F and NP to a med school adcom? One NP was from my very last semester of college.
NP? As in No Pass? I suspect that it will go down as an F, because what your college reports isn't what you enter in the AMCAS or AACOMAS app form. And if a NP is worth 0 GPA points, then it's an F.

I'm going to start a 3-year post-bacc program soon of about 80 units. Is that too many units? Is there such a thing? The courses I'm going to be taking are the prereqs and some upper div chem/bio courses.
You don't need 80 credits. That's 3/4 of a UG degree. 30-50 is fine if you include all the pre-reqs and some upper level courses.
 
I have 4 failed classes (1 F and 3 NP's) sprinkled throughout my undergrad transcript. Is this "repairable"?
Yes.

The fact that I pretty much failed a class a year is really disheartening. Are there differences between an F and NP to a med school adcom? One NP was from my very last semester of college.
NP? As in No Pass? I suspect that it will go down as an F, because what your college reports isn't what you enter in the AMCAS or AACOMAS app form. And if a NP is worth 0 GPA points, then it's an F.

I'm going to start a 3-year post-bacc program soon of about 80 units. Is that too many units? Is there such a thing? The courses I'm going to be taking are the prereqs and some upper div chem/bio courses.
You don't need 80 credits. That's 3/4 of a UG degree. 30-50 is fine if you include all the pre-reqs and some upper level courses.

It's just that taking 12-13 units per sem + ~2.5 - 3 years gets me some financial assistance, which would amount to 72 - 78 units. There wouldn't be any disadvantages with that many units, right? Or is it better to keep the unit count lower?
 
It's just that taking 12-13 units per sem + ~2.5 - 3 years gets me some financial assistance, which would amount to 72 - 78 units. There wouldn't be any disadvantages with that many units, right? Or is it better to keep the unit count lower?
Go with whatever works for you. If there's a help with finances, then that is fine!!
 
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Hi Goro.

I am a non-trad (asian), currently enrolled in a non-SMP Master's program. I did undergrad from a top engineering school, overall GPA was > 3.20 but sGPA < 3.0 unfortunately. I did the math and knew I couldn't bring my GPA up much with post-bac so that's why I enrolled in Master's to get a fresh GPA.

I am doing really well in my biology master's (4 classes at 16 credits total, hoping to finish with A's this semester). I will also take 4 classes in spring and 2 in the summer. If I keep going at this rate, I am expecting to have at least 3.8 GPA or higher in Master's when I apply for med school. Will take MCAT in spring, aiming for 510+.

In terms of ECs:
In undergrad, I had many leadership positions and also did research (around 200 hrs). I am TAing as a grad student. I worked after undergrad, around 4000 work hours (in engineering). Since I just became pre-med this semester, I am trying to get my shadowing and volunteering hours in. How many hours should I aim for in each category?

Do you think I have a shot at med school? I am truly loving all of my classes but I am just worried about my stats not being competitive enough and since my master's not SMP, would my new GPA make a dent in my application?

Thanks for your help.
 
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Hi Goro.

I am a non-trad (asian), currently enrolled in a non-SMP Master's program. I did undergrad from a top engineering school, overall GPA was > 3.20 but sGPA < 3.0 unfortunately. I did the math and knew I couldn't bring my GPA up much with post-bac so that's why I enrolled in Master's to get a fresh GPA.

I am doing really well in my biology master's (4 classes at 16 credits total, hoping to finish with A's this semester). I will also take 4 classes in spring and 2 in the summer. If I keep going at this rate, I am expecting to have at least 3.8 GPA or higher in Master's when I apply for med school. Will take MCAT in spring, aiming for 510+.

In terms of ECs:
In undergrad, I had many leadership positions and also did research (around 200 hrs). I am TAing as a grad student. I worked after undergrad, around 4000 work hours (in engineering). Since I just became pre-med this semester, I am trying to get my shadowing and volunteering hours in. How many hours should I aim for in each category?

Do you think I have a shot at med school? I am truly loving all of my classes but I am just worried about my stats not being competitive enough and since my master's not SMP, would my new GPA make a dent in my application?

Thanks for your help.
So far your progress looks fine. Yes there are a number of MD and all DO schools that reward reinvention.
 
So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling.

But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take both time and money. And always remember that you’re in a marathon now, not a sprint. The following advice holds true for people considering MD and DO. I strongly recommend that you keep both in mind, and the latter is more tolerant of reinvention.

EDIT: An even better summary to the next paragraph is provided by the wise HomeSkool here: Simple rules for retaking courses

Here’s what you need to do :

a) IF you have F/D grades in the pre-reqs, retake them. You need to show that you can master this material, and it will help you for MCAT (assuming that you haven’t taken the MCAT). In addition, many schools require a C or higher grade in pre-reqs. Naturally, this will vary from school to school.

If you got C's, take some upper level science classes and ace them. There is no need to retake a C unless you are very weak on the material and you need it for MCAT. Never, ever retake a B or B-.

If the material was from a long time ago, and you got a B, but you feel you need a refresher for the MCAT, simply audit the course instead.

b) There are MD schools that reward reinvention. All DO schools do. The DO path will be a little easier, but both still require an investment of 1-2 years of not GPA repair, but of transcript repair.

c) The goal is NOT to raise your cGPA to a sky high level (for some people this is mathematically impossible), but rather show that the you of now is not the you of then, and that you can handle a medical school curriculum. So do not worry that your cGPA will be 3.2 upon applying after finishing your post-bac/GPA. Rising GPA trends are always looked highly upon, and many med schools weight the last 2-3 years more than the entire cGPA.

d) Thus, take 1-2 years of a DIY post-bac, or a 1 year SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Do well in either of these programs. A 3.5+ should suffice for a DO school, while 3.7+ will be needed for an MD school

e) in addition to d), your MCAT score will determine where to aim. I suggest:

513+ : MD schools

510+ : your state MD school and any DO school

505+: any DO school

500+: the newest DO schools

On top of these, get as much patient contact volunteering time in as possible. A trend I am seeing from SDNers who have received interviews from good schools and who also reinvented themselves, is that they have lots of clinical volunteering or employment...some even in the 1000s of hours.

As to the pluses and minuses of post-bac vs SMP:

A formal post-bac program is geared toward career switchers, and mostly provide the pre-reqs, and probably some MCAT advice/prep as well. You get faculty guidance in this and some programs seem to be feeders to med schools for non-trad students. They will cost more though.

Now, you can do the same thing on your own by simply taking continuing education courses at any nearby college. A four year school will be preferable to a community college (CC), but if costs are an issue, then a CC will be OK. This path is what is known here in SDN as the “DIY post-bac.” Costs will be less, but there’s no guidance.

What classes should one take in a DIY post-bac??? Things that mimic a medical school curriculum!

Anatomy
Physiology
Histology
Biostats
Cell Bio
Molecular Bio or Genetics
Biochem
Med Micro OR Bacteriology and/or Virology
Neuroscience
Immunology
Parasitology (if offered)
Pathology

An SMP (special master’s program) is one that offers medical school classes, or material that’s taught in medical school. These can be a backdoor into med school, and you get real advice from med school faculty (if given at a med school). Plus, you're a known quantity to the Adcom members, who will frequently be your SMP faculty. The down side is that the tuition will be more considerable. You may also have to relocate in order to attend one.

There are some two year SMPs, but I don’t see any advantage to these over one year programs.

Also, if you do poorly, your SMP degree is worthless, unless the program has an added-value component, like some research venue. Thus, SMPs are more high risk, but also high reward.

One final word of warning: Do NOT take the MCAT while enrolled in an SMP. We’ve seen students do this, and it leads to disaster. Some programs require an MCAT, so that solves the problem (although they may have a minimum score requirement!).

And remember, med schools aren’t going anywhere, and in fact, by the time you apply, several more will have opened their doors.

Good luck!


Hi, I just recently graduated with a BS in Biology with a 3.09 cGPA. Didn’t think I would have a chance getting into med school. Currently working on redeeming myself and increasing my chances. I haven’t taken the MCAT yet. Since I have such a low gpa I know I need to take some DIY post bacc classes or a SMP but I was wondering if I should try to score my best on the MCAT first or should I first take some upper level classes to boost the gpa and then focus on the MCAT??

Appreciate the help!!!
 
Hi, I just recently graduated with a BS in Biology with a 3.09 cGPA. Didn’t think I would have a chance getting into med school. Currently working on redeeming myself and increasing my chances. I haven’t taken the MCAT yet. Since I have such a low gpa I know I need to take some DIY post bacc classes or a SMP but I was wondering if I should try to score my best on the MCAT first or should I first take some upper level classes to boost the gpa and then focus on the MCAT??

Appreciate the help!!!
I suggest doing the coursework first. If you do poorly, then there's no need to take the MCAT. Read the wise @DrMidlife 's posts on the subject.
 
Hello Goro, I am finishing up undergrad with cGPA 3.6 & sGPA 3.4 and MCAT 504.

My GPA follows a horseshoe trend in that it tanked after I transferred to a UC from community college, but there has been a recent upward trend the past ~1 year. My concern is that most of the upward trend consists of upper-division ecology-related courses such as Evolutionary Medicine, Plant Physiology, Marine Science, Ecology Lab, etc. and I am not sure how positively/negatively that will be viewed... any thoughts on this?

Furthermore, I am definitely planning to re-take the MCAT (aiming for 515+), but my question is: Do you think one year (two semesters) of DIY postbacc at a local CSU with more med-school relevant upper division courses (~24-30 units worth) is necessary, and if so, do you think the amount of courses is sufficient enough? I'm planning to apply broadly both MD/DO. Thank you for your help!
 
My concern is that most of the upward trend consists of upper-division ecology-related courses such as Evolutionary Medicine, Plant Physiology, Marine Science, Ecology Lab, etc. and I am not sure how positively/negatively that will be viewed... any thoughts on this?

Do you think one year (two semesters) of DIY postbacc at a local CSU with more med-school relevant upper division courses (~24-30 units worth) is necessary, and if so, do you think the amount of courses is sufficient enough?
I personally am not a fan of the coursework you took, but overall, your GPAs are fair. You're fin for any DO school right now.

If you're boning for the MD, then I recommend the postbac work, and retaking MCAT.
 
Hello Goro, I am finishing up undergrad with cGPA 3.6 & sGPA 3.4 and MCAT 504.

My GPA follows a horseshoe trend in that it tanked after I transferred to a UC from community college, but there has been a recent upward trend the past ~1 year. My concern is that most of the upward trend consists of upper-division ecology-related courses such as Evolutionary Medicine, Plant Physiology, Marine Science, Ecology Lab, etc. and I am not sure how positively/negatively that will be viewed... any thoughts on this?

Furthermore, I am definitely planning to re-take the MCAT (aiming for 515+), but my question is: Do you think one year (two semesters) of DIY postbacc at a local CSU with more med-school relevant upper division courses (~24-30 units worth) is necessary, and if so, do you think the amount of courses is sufficient enough? I'm planning to apply broadly both MD/DO. Thank you for your help!

Have you taken all or almost all of the prerequisites?

Why did you take these upper division courses and not science courses in like Micro/Immunology, Physiology, Biochem, Neuroscience or neuro anatomy, cell bio or genetics, histology or similar?
 
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Hello Goro,

URM AA student cGPA is 2.90 and s GPA is 2.64.
I have already taken cell bio, genetics, molecular biology, biochem, pathology, and microbiology as part of my undergrad biology degree. I plan on taking the MCAT in January, and I have been averaging a 513 on the practice exams. If I do manage to get a 513 MCAT score do you think I will be better off doing an SMP or take more science classes?
 
Hello Goro,

URM AA student cGPA is 2.90 and s GPA is 2.64.
I have already taken cell bio, genetics, molecular biology, biochem, pathology, and microbiology as part of my undergrad biology degree. I plan on taking the MCAT in January, and I have been averaging a 513 on the practice exams. If I do manage to get a 513 MCAT score do you think I will be better off doing an SMP or take more science classes?
You need to do well on MCAT AND show that you can handle emd school courses. I suggest taking courses or an SMP first, because if you can't do well in them, the MCAT is pointless.
 
You need to do well on MCAT AND show that you can handle emd school courses. I suggest taking courses or an SMP first, because if you can't do well in them, the MCAT is pointless.
I thought SMPs required an MCAT score to apply to the program?
 
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