Help Senior! To apply or not apply? And if not, gap year advice?

[Imperfectly_Me]

Hi Guys!

Please don't be scared by the long post, i've just thought long and hard and really need your feedback on what I should do next in my pre-med journey. So I am currently a senior entering my last semester as a cell & molecular biology major. Right now, I have a 3.4 cGPA and 3.1 scGPA so far with not much of a trend, but still have calculus and another biology class left this semester as well as a year of physics that I need to take over the summer. I have not taken the MCAT yet, but plan to this summer(timing depends on your feedback).

-Clinical experiences aren't particularly strong(length of time-wise) with 60 hrs of shadowing, summer internship in mental health nursing, and respite care for a child with autism(3 & 1/2 semesters).
-Extracurriculars include peer mentoring(2 semesters), treasurer & now president of science & math national honor society(3 years of participation), chemistry & biology tutoring(2 semesters) and helping out with the youth at my church(6 years), traveling(i've visited over 11 countries as part of mission trips, school trips, and study abroad programs).

What should I do next?
-Just Apply? My family wants me to apply this cycle and use my gap year to strengthen my clinical ECs. They're thinking I should just give it a try even though I would feel rushed and i'm not sure if schools will let me apply without finishing physics beforehand. If I did apply, I would have to apply later(july) even though I know earlier is better because I need more time to study for the MCAT(which I would have to take by June at the latest) which I haven't even started to study for besides gathering materials.

-Extra courses vs. Post-Bacc vs. SMP? I know my GPA sucks for MD and probably DO schools and i'm thinking if I wait until the 2018 cycle, I can do one of these to improve it. I'm not sure though which is better for my case as I hate the idea of huge loans for an smp and i've already completed most of the courses for a post-bacc.

-Masters program? This won't fix my undergrad GPA, but a good grad GPA in a hard science masters is better than nothing and can be a back up plan in case I don't get in according to my advisor. Although posts about grade inflation in grad schools, especially MPH programs, have largely deterred me from using it as a GPA saver.

-Work? I like the idea of focusing on working as a medical scribe for more clinical experience and studying hard to get a strong MCAT in my gap year(or two if I don't apply this cycle) instead of spending money taking classes. I already have an ED volunteer research assistant position in a program lined up after graduation, but I definitely need that time to find community service work i'm interested in.

-A combination of any of the above?

For the longest time I didn't like the idea of taking 2 gap years for times sake, but I know now that the reality of my decreased competitiveness is forcing me to consider it unless you guys think I still have a chance at MD/DO schools this cycle? My dream has always been MD, but I heard DO is great for primary care which is an interest of mine. Thank you so much!

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[candbgirl]

Without a MCAT score there is really no way to predict what will happen. But your GPAS are pretty low for MD and your ECs are weak. You really only want to apply one time with the best possible application . It doesn't seem that you are any where near being ready to apply. Take your time and do it right the first time to give yourself the best possible chance.
A SMP is very risky . It is like a try out for med school and unless you can achieve a a 3.6+ GPA in the program it's really game over for med school. And with a 3.1 sGPA I'm not sure you could count on doing that well. You might have some luck with DO but again much depends on the MCAT. I'm not sure about the advisability of taking the MCAT without taking physics. Maybe someone else can tell you about that.



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[shopsteward]

Don't take the MCAT before you have finished your year physics classes, as that is asking for a disaster that you cannot afford. That means you need two gap years at least, applying June 1918 at the earliest.

That gives you 18 months t0

1) increase your GPA, especially your science GPA. Ace your remaining classes this semester and over the summer. Only take more after that if you can be confident of getting an A and it does not interfere with -
2) once your classes are finished, study for and take the MCAT. Do it once, do it right.
3) add clinical experience. 60 hours shadowing is fine, as long as some of it is primary care.
4) earn some money, so that you are not broke/in debt going into medical school.

 

[Imperfectly_Me]

Without a MCAT score there is really no way to predict what will happen. But your GPAS are pretty low for MD and your ECs are weak. You really only want to apply one time with the best possible application . It doesn't seem that you are any where near being ready to apply. Take your time and do it right the first time to give yourself the best possible chance.
A SMP is very risky . It is like a try out for med school and unless you can achieve a a 3.6+ GPA in the program it's really game over for med school. And with a 3.1 sGPA I'm not sure you could count on doing that well. You might have some luck with DO but again much depends on the MCAT. I'm not sure about the advisability of taking the MCAT without taking physics. Maybe someone else can tell you about that.



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Thank you for your feedback, I definitely agree that my application is not ready! But what do you recommend for improving my scGPA then? I really don't want to get weeded out just because of it? Or should I let it be and just focus on getting a strong MCAT and working to get experience instead?

 

[Imperfectly_Me]

Don't take the MCAT before you have finished your year physics classes, as that is asking for a disaster that you cannot afford. That means you need two gap years at least, applying June 1918 at the earliest.

That gives you 18 months t0

1) increase your GPA, especially your science GPA. Ace your remaining classes this semester and over the summer. Only take more after that if you can be confident of getting an A and it does not interfere with -
2) once your classes are finished, study for and take the MCAT. Do it once, do it right.
3) add clinical experience. 60 hours shadowing is fine, as long as some of it is primary care.
4) earn some money, so that you are not broke/in debt going into medical school.

Thank you for your feedback! In your opinion, do you think those classes are enough to improve my scGPA?

Also what do you think between scribing and working as a research assistant during those gap years? Doing research definitely pays more, but scribing would give me the flexibility to study for the MCAT.

 

[Dr. Stalker]

Hi Guys!

Please don't be scared by the long post, i've just thought long and hard and really need your feedback on what I should do next in my pre-med journey. So I am currently a senior entering my last semester as a cell & molecular biology major. Right now, I have a 3.4 cGPA and 3.1 scGPA so far with not much of a trend, but still have calculus and another biology class left this semester as well as a year of physics that I need to take over the summer. I have not taken the MCAT yet, but plan to this summer(timing depends on your feedback).

-Clinical experiences aren't particularly strong(length of time-wise) with 60 hrs of shadowing, summer internship in mental health nursing, and respite care for a child with autism(3 & 1/2 semesters).
-Extracurriculars include peer mentoring(2 semesters), treasurer & now president of science & math national honor society(3 years of participation), chemistry & biology tutoring(2 semesters) and helping out with the youth at my church(6 years), traveling(i've visited over 11 countries as part of mission trips, school trips, and study abroad programs).

What should I do next?
-Just Apply? My family wants me to apply this cycle and use my gap year to strengthen my clinical ECs. They're thinking I should just give it a try even though I would feel rushed and i'm not sure if schools will let me apply without finishing physics beforehand. If I did apply, I would have to apply later(july) even though I know earlier is better because I need more time to study for the MCAT(which I would have to take by June at the latest) which I haven't even started to study for besides gathering materials.

-Extra courses vs. Post-Bacc vs. SMP? I know my GPA sucks for MD and probably DO schools and i'm thinking if I wait until the 2018 cycle, I can do one of these to improve it. I'm not sure though which is better for my case as I hate the idea of huge loans for an smp and i've already completed most of the courses for a post-bacc.

-Masters program? This won't fix my undergrad GPA, but a good grad GPA in a hard science masters is better than nothing and can be a back up plan in case I don't get in according to my advisor. Although posts about grade inflation in grad schools, especially MPH programs, have largely deterred me from using it as a GPA saver.

-Work? I like the idea of focusing on working as a medical scribe for more clinical experience and studying hard to get a strong MCAT in my gap year(or two if I don't apply this cycle) instead of spending money taking classes. I already have an ED volunteer research assistant position in a program lined up after graduation, but I definitely need that time to find community service work i'm interested in.

-A combination of any of the above?

For the longest time I didn't like the idea of taking 2 gap years for times sake, but I know now that the reality of my decreased competitiveness is forcing me to consider it unless you guys think I still have a chance at MD/DO schools this cycle? My dream has always been MD, but I heard DO is great for primary care which is an interest of mine. Thank you so much!

Hi OP,

I'm going to give a succinct hopefully helpful response below.

1. Family's now'a'days know nothing about medicine. Even if mommy and daddy are doctors. Currently in my masters there's a few physicians. One of which was telling us about her daughter who is applying. She got just about every detail wrong because she doesn't know how admissions works. Its entirely different than it was. Hell its changed drastically since 2007 (10 years ago!) I would strongly advise against applying this cycle. The main reason is you have a very low chance of being admitted. Then, when you reapply, you will be compared to your old application. Do as goro says, apply once, when you're at your best.

2. Gap years: Clearly, I'm sorry to be so blunt, your sGPA isn't the most competitive. The good news is medical schools (both MD and DO) don't care too much about GPA when it comes to MCAT. I would suggest you research and pursue a masters of science program. Often times applicants doesn't attain the highest GPA as an undergrad, and thats ok. But when you're 23 or 24 and diligently studying for your MS and landing a 4.0, it shows awesome stuff.

3. MCAT. Get your MCAT to a 514. You'll be golden for an MD program with a higher sGPA from MS and a 514 (aim for a 512 the lowest).

All of this can be done in 2 years! I would suggest you find a strong 1 year MS program. If you can do that MS program and nail your MCAT in the 2017-2018 academic year, you can apply in June 2018 to all MD/DO programs you're interested in and land an acceptance. And if you feel comfortable with 3 gap years, do a 2 year MS and study for your MCAT. Remember that there is always a +1 year due to how the application cycle works. If you apply June 2017, you interview Fall-Spring 2017/2018 and get admitted for Fall 2018. Its not in the same year. During the application year ER scribe or a job is expected so you'll shine there at that time.

Be patient. Remember, the gap year(s) is normal. Many students start medical school not out of undergrad. Don't be foolish and apply with blind hope (I did that and I paid a huge price, PM for more details).

 

[gogo yubari]

Hi Guys!

Please don't be scared by the long post, i've just thought long and hard and really need your feedback on what I should do next in my pre-med journey. So I am currently a senior entering my last semester as a cell & molecular biology major. Right now, I have a 3.4 cGPA and 3.1 scGPA so far with not much of a trend, but still have calculus and another biology class left this semester as well as a year of physics that I need to take over the summer. I have not taken the MCAT yet, but plan to this summer(timing depends on your feedback).

-Clinical experiences aren't particularly strong(length of time-wise) with 60 hrs of shadowing, summer internship in mental health nursing, and respite care for a child with autism(3 & 1/2 semesters).
-Extracurriculars include peer mentoring(2 semesters), treasurer & now president of science & math national honor society(3 years of participation), chemistry & biology tutoring(2 semesters) and helping out with the youth at my church(6 years), traveling(i've visited over 11 countries as part of mission trips, school trips, and study abroad programs).

What should I do next?
-Just Apply? My family wants me to apply this cycle and use my gap year to strengthen my clinical ECs. They're thinking I should just give it a try even though I would feel rushed and i'm not sure if schools will let me apply without finishing physics beforehand. If I did apply, I would have to apply later(july) even though I know earlier is better because I need more time to study for the MCAT(which I would have to take by June at the latest) which I haven't even started to study for besides gathering materials.

-Extra courses vs. Post-Bacc vs. SMP? I know my GPA sucks for MD and probably DO schools and i'm thinking if I wait until the 2018 cycle, I can do one of these to improve it. I'm not sure though which is better for my case as I hate the idea of huge loans for an smp and i've already completed most of the courses for a post-bacc.

-Masters program? This won't fix my undergrad GPA, but a good grad GPA in a hard science masters is better than nothing and can be a back up plan in case I don't get in according to my advisor. Although posts about grade inflation in grad schools, especially MPH programs, have largely deterred me from using it as a GPA saver.

-Work? I like the idea of focusing on working as a medical scribe for more clinical experience and studying hard to get a strong MCAT in my gap year(or two if I don't apply this cycle) instead of spending money taking classes. I already have an ED volunteer research assistant position in a program lined up after graduation, but I definitely need that time to find community service work i'm interested in.

-A combination of any of the above?

For the longest time I didn't like the idea of taking 2 gap years for times sake, but I know now that the reality of my decreased competitiveness is forcing me to consider it unless you guys think I still have a chance at MD/DO schools this cycle? My dream has always been MD, but I heard DO is great for primary care which is an interest of mine. Thank you so much!

Hi! I'm actually in a kinda similar situation right now! I've chosen to take a gap year (maybe multiple?) because I definitely want to know that I've strengthened my app to the best of my ability before applying. I've seen many mention this on here but medical schools really aren't going anywhere. I don't think you should feel like you have to rush into this process without feeling reasonably prepared for an application cycle.

Like you mentioned, there are multiple paths that you could take in order to give yourself a better shot at getting accepted. This could all be very off base because I'm still learning so much about this process myself but maybe a plan like this would work:
Do really well in classes during spring/summer/fall 2017 while also strengthening ECs (clinical volunteering!!)
Take December 2017/spring 2018 to do some effective MCAT prep (while dedicating a portion of your downtime to a couple ECs you're super passionate about?)
Take the MCAT on a day that's early enough to get your score back on a date that allows you time to apply early (& strategically) to MD/DO schools. This probably goes without saying but I wouldn't take it if you don't feel really ready to do so.

 

[gogo yubari]

That gives you 18 months t0

1) increase your GPA, especially your science GPA. Ace your remaining classes this semester and over the summer. Only take more after that if you can be confident of getting an A and it does not interfere with -
2) once your classes are finished, study for and take the MCAT. Do it once, do it right.
3) add clinical experience. 60 hours shadowing is fine, as long as some of it is primary care.
4) earn some money, so that you are not broke/in debt going into medical school.

After re-reading this thread I'm realizing that it seems like I just took this advice and offered it up again but with a less concise approach. Sorry about that!!

I really do think it's good advice, though.

 

[Imperfectly_Me]

After re-reading this thread I'm realizing that it seems like I just took this advice and offered it up again but with a less concise approach. Sorry about that!!

I really do think it's good advice, though.

Don't worry about! The more affirmation, the better! I have calculated my GPA and it's hard trying to get that science one up unless we're talking 5-6 more science classes to get to a 3.5/6 which at that point is another year of undergrad?! Might be worth it to just do a masters. I wish you the best with your journey as well!

 

[theBriefing]

Don't worry about! The more affirmation, the better! I have calculated my GPA and it's hard trying to get that science one up unless we're talking 5-6 more science classes to get to a 3.5/6 which at that point is another year of undergrad?! Might be worth it to just do a masters. I wish you the best with your journey as well!

Please don't do a masters. That is not what you need! More undergraduate science classes is what you need.

If you're only 5-6 science classes away from a 3.5/3.6 sGPA, as you say, then that does not seem like a difficult jump to take on.

 

[Imperfectly_Me]

Please don't do a masters. That is not what you need! More undergraduate science classes is what you need.

If you're only 5-6 science classes away from a 3.5/3.6 sGPA, as you say, then that does not seem like a difficult jump to take on.

Okay so I re-did the calculation aka. forecasted grades into a GPA calculator and it turned out I remembered incorrectly. I would have to take 7 bio/chem classes on top of what i'm already taking this semester + summer physics in order to get a 3.5 scGPA or 12 for a 3.6. Knowing this, would you still recommend just taking extra classes vs. enrolling in an MS? I know most post-bacc programs don't accept people already have a degree in science.

 

[gogo yubari]

I know most post-bacc programs don't accept people already have a degree in science.

Wait, this is a thing? That might only apply to "career changer" programs..
I was under the impression that most post-bacc "academic enhancing" programs generally require applicants to have already obtained a bachelors degree (in any field) provided that all pre-reqs were completed and the GPA minimum is being met.

 

[shopsteward]

Okay so I re-did the calculation aka. forecasted grades into a GPA calculator and it turned out I remembered incorrectly. I would have to take 7 bio/chem classes on top of what i'm already taking this semester + summer physics in order to get a 3.5 scGPA or 12 for a 3.6. Knowing this, would you still recommend just taking extra classes vs. enrolling in an MS? I know most post-bacc programs don't accept people already have a degree in science.

MS grades are generally considered to be inflated as against undergrad, and do not count in calculating your uGPA. Your sGPA is currently the biggest stopper in your application (it's the thing most likely to get you ruled out of consideration before interview stage), and an MS won't help with that. You need either an informal post-bacc or a formal post-bacc or SMP to bring up your sGPA. I suspect you are not yet at the formal post-bacc or SMP stage, given that you haven't even done physics yet or taken your MCAT.

Don't be in a rush. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Do it once, do it right.

 

[theBriefing]

Okay so I re-did the calculation aka. forecasted grades into a GPA calculator and it turned out I remembered incorrectly. I would have to take 7 bio/chem classes on top of what i'm already taking this semester + summer physics in order to get a 3.5 scGPA or 12 for a 3.6. Knowing this, would you still recommend just taking extra classes vs. enrolling in an MS? I know most post-bacc programs don't accept people already have a degree in science.

Trust us on this. What you need is to boost the GPA that matters for AAMC, which is your undergraduate GPA! Many schools will automatically disqualify low GPAs through an AAMC filter (they won't know you exist!). 7 undergraduate science classes still don't seem like much to me: 2 in the summer, 2/3 in the fall, or 2/3 in the spring! If you ace them, then you may consider yourself a golden applicant next year (GPA-wise, that is).

 

[gyngyn]

Grades from a Master's degree do not remediate a weak undergraduate gpa for MD schools. DO schools look at this differently.

 

[DokterMom]

Your parents are almost certainly thinking "What's the harm in applying now?" with a possible (but undoubtedly understated) caveat of "Only wasted time and money." They need to know that having a failed application cycle, which you are at risk for now, DOES hurt your future chances. Please talk to them about that, and if needed, send them to some selected Internet resources to back that up. Your life will be much easier with them on your side.

As for what to do now --

1. Take your physics class.
2. Start studying for the MCAT and see how it goes.
   1. If you are scoring reasonably well on practice exams, go ahead and take it in June, July, or August
   2. If you're not scoring well on practice exams, for goodness sake, don't take the test!
3. If you've got a good MCAT, go ahead and apply DO at the end of the summer. Try to shadow a DO in the near future so this option will be on the table.
   
4. If you've got a great MCAT and care about MD vs DO, plan to apply early the next cycle.
5. Excellent grades are vital whatever you do, but I'd agree with an MPH being 'less impressive' ergo less valuable in a grade-repair situation.

You've got some interesting ECs. The psych nurse and respite care gigs are unusual in a good way, and will help you stand out from the crowd.

Good Luck! --

 

[Goro]

You need to show that you can handle med school. With a 3.1 sGPA, my fear is that you'll struggle.

Do NOT listen to your parents for career advice. They love you and they mean well, but their ignorance will only terminate your medical career.

You're also old enough to vote drink drive, work, pay taxes, smoke and fight and die for your country. You're old enough to tell them, "I'll make these decisions on my time, thank you."

I suggest a DIY post-bac or SMP, and you have to ace this (3.7+ GPA). Do this for 1-2 years and ace MCAT and you'll find that there are a good number of med schools that reward reinvention (some MD, all DO).

Hi Guys!

 

[Imperfectly_Me]

So it seems like a consensus has been reached that an MS is not the best route for me. Saying I do the extra classes instead, how does that work? I know some schools let you pay per credit(which is pricey without financial aid), but also many require you pursue a degree/certificate to be able to enroll. Currently I'm at a semester-based private university and it'd be very pricey to continue here for an extra year versus a cheaper term-based public university. Won't medical schools look down on that as easier or does it not matter as long as I'm making grades?

 

[impervious0ne]

So it seems like a consensus has been reached that an MS is not the best route for me. Saying I do the extra classes instead, how does that work? I know some schools let you pay per credit(which is pricey without financial aid), but also many require you pursue a degree/certificate to be able to enroll. Currently I'm at a semester-based private university and it'd be very pricey to continue here for an extra year versus a cheaper term-based public university. Won't medical schools look down on that as easier or does it not matter as long as I'm making grades?

Many have said DO schools do not particularly care where your courses come from. Some MD reinventors took classes at state university, some DO reinventors took class at CC.

The consensus is take heavy science classes and do well until either: your stats are within spitting distance within competitive numbers or good enough to do SMP which in case, you ace it to get in.