Hey it's Jet. I need some advice.

[nlfru]

Copro, I think I can speak for most on this board when I say that you are missed. Your posts were great until you were driven off in part by some obnoxious premed. The SAME obnoxious premed who is constantly arguing with someone and continually annoying our higher quality posters. Hmmm I'm starting to see a trend...

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[sebsvenmdc]

Hey Guys,

First, it's really cool how we're having such an open, honest discussion about all of this...and even though I personally disagree with many of you, I appreciate how respectful and honest this whole dialogue has become!

I wanted to chime in on a few things. It's quite possible that physics does need God. What makes one sure that any or all of the laws of physics are not constantly controlled by God? It's perfectly possible for God's to be intricately interwoven in the mathematical and scientific fabric of our universe. Can one of you disprove that God is not behind even an apple falling to the ground?

It's sad that many feel that religion is at odds with science when for many - including myself - they are not incompatible things. And many Christians are not anti-intellectual or against the progress of scientific discovery. I have never just claimed, "that's just the way God made it." There is nothing wrong with investigating how things work - and just because we can explain the reason behind something, it doesn't lead to a conclusion that God is irrelevant to that process. It just leads to one of the infinitely similar philosophical bifurcations: did this process exist by itself or is/was it created by God.

Lastly, just because Christians sin or act like hypocrites, it doesn't mean that Christianity is invalid/untrue. Christians are certainly accountable for their actions and they can be poor ambassadors of their faith, unfortunately...I know that sometimes I have been...but that's exactly why I need Christ's forgiveness and help everyday. I'm fallen, my flesh is weak, and it's easy for me to screw up. I'm not rationalizing/justifying hypocrisy...I'm just saying be careful to throw out the faith because of disappointing examples.

Another thing, it's entirely possible for multiple people to believe one thing and for only one of them to be correct. For example: across the globe, there is a villager in Zambia that believes that Paris is in Spain, an American that believes Paris is in Portugal, and an Australian that believes Paris is in France...despite the antagonistic claims of all 3, only the Aussie is correct.

Also, in order to have the best explanation, you don't need an explanation for the explanation. For example, say we mined away under some rocks in the middle of Africa and we uncovered solid objects that resembled tools like hammers and knifes and forks. It's much more likely that a prior civilization created the tools and instruments rather than the tools being crafted into their form through some incredibly rare geomorphological process creating them. Now, we might not know who the heck the people in Africa were or when they were there or how they got there...but it's not required for me to know the answer to this question in order for me to accept that the best explanation is that a prior civilization created them. Similarly, I don't have to know what created God or have an explanation for His existence in order for me to accept the best explanation that He created existence.

 

[loveoforganic]

Can one of you disprove that God is not behind even an apple falling to the ground?

But where is the need? I don't see the utility, religiously or physically. Science can provide mathematical models for things to perfection - it neither confirms nor denies the existence of god nor his influence on any physical process.

I'm not rationalizing/justifying hypocrisy...I'm just saying be careful to throw out the faith because of disappointing examples.

At least in my post earlier, my beef was with a church-wide belief that doesn't jive with me. I'm not damning the church or its utility for that belief, but I think it's the responsibility of the congregation to analyze the teachings of the church, not accepting them at face value.

Another thing, it's entirely possible for multiple people to believe one thing and for only one of them to be correct. For example: across the globe, there is a villager in Zambia that believes that Paris is in Spain, an American that believes Paris is in Portugal, and an Australian that believes Paris is in France...despite the antagonistic claims of all 3, only the Aussie is correct.

That isn't where the problem is. A better analogy would be

"For example: across the globe, there is a villager in Zambia that believes that Paris is in Spain, an American that believes Paris is in Portugal, and an Australian that believes Paris is in France. None of them have ever actually seen Paris, nor been to Spain, Portugal, or France respectively. There is contradicting evidence propagated by communities each individual participates in. They all believe that they have received great gifts from Paris, drifting in from the ocean. Despite the antagonistic claims of all 3, only the Aussie is correct. The Aussie gets to take a plane to Paris. The other two get their villages napalmed."

Similarly, I don't have to know what created God or have an explanation for His existence in order for me to accept the best explanation that He created existence.

We're in agreement there

 

[doctor712]

Copro, I think I can speak for most on this board when I say that you are missed. Your posts were great until you were driven off in part by some obnoxious premed. The SAME obnoxious premed who is constantly arguing with someone and continually annoying our higher quality posters. Hmmm I'm starting to see a trend...

??????
Am I even allowed to reply?
Do I even want to reply?
I've had two major disagreements in what, 2 years?
Sheesh. Hard crowd.
I think I've posted my share of excellent threads, posts and questions for a premed.
Lord,
D712

 

[2win]

??????
Am I even allowed to reply?
Do I even want to reply?
I've had two major disagreements in what, 2 years?
Sheesh. Hard crowd.
I think I've posted my share of excellent threads, posts and questions for a premed.
Lord,
D712

Hi Doctor712 - please guys don't start again...
Just forget each other and let it go....
It will be better for each of you and also for the rest of us.
2win

 

[Arch Guillotti]

??????
Am I even allowed to reply?
Do I even want to reply?
I've had two major disagreements in what, 2 years?
Sheesh. Hard crowd.
I think I've posted my share of excellent threads, posts and questions for a premed.
Lord,
D712

Tough crowd here. Let it go.

 

[doctor712]

I'm too exhausted to debate it. Don't really care. I'll be up for rustling feathers in another 2 years. Sometimes it's not worth it. I have no beef AT ALL with poster above.
D712

 

[countingdays]

That isn't where the problem is. A better analogy would be

"For example: across the globe, there is a villager in Zambia that believes that Paris is in Spain, an American that believes Paris is in Portugal, and an Australian that believes Paris is in France. None of them have ever actually seen Paris, nor been to Spain, Portugal, or France respectively. There is contradicting evidence propagated by communities each individual participates in. They all believe that they have received great gifts from Paris, drifting in from the ocean. Despite the antagonistic claims of all 3, only the Aussie is correct. The Aussie gets to take a plane to Paris. The other two get their villages napalmed."

or maybe an even better analogy would be

"For example: across the globe, there is a villager in Zambia that believes that Atlantis is in Spain, an American that believes Atlantis is in Portugal, and an Australian that believes Atlantis is in France. None of them have ever actually seen Atlantis, nor been to Spain, Portugal, or France respectively. There is contradicting evidence propagated by communities each individual participates in. They all believe that they have received great gifts from Atlantis, drifting in from the ocean. Despite the antagonistic claims of all 3, none of them is correct. None of them gets to take a plane to Atlantis. Maybe there's an Atlantis under the ocean somewhere and maybe there isn't, but everything they think they know about Atlantis is wrong (or at least made up by someone with no more knowledge of Atlantis than them)."

 

[pgg]

"There is always another layer" implies infinity, and that answer does not satisfy me.

It might be more reasonable for me to say, rather than "there's always another layer" instead

Many layers have been peeled back in the past.
It's likely that many more will be in the future.
It's unlikely that THIS particular layer is the last, with god behind it.

I don't really think it's turtles all the way down.

I do believe in the fact that everything we see came from something, somewhere, somehow. I don't believe in a spontaneous universe.

But you can believe in a spontaneous or always-existing god?

Just like I don't accept we are the only intelligent beings in this universe.

That seems unlikely as well. There's no reason to believe that we're alone in in the universe or even anything special - except pride and ego, and fear that ultimately our existence is irrelevant to the universe.

So many people choose to believe in an afterlife because of that ego and fear, and that's their right. I understand the motivation there, but it doesn't bootstrap that fear into something logical.

 

[pgg]

I wanted to chime in on a few things. It's quite possible that physics does need God.

It's also possible that physics needs blood sacrifice to keep the quarks spinning, and that the generous Aztec deposits into the celestial 'keep-the-sun-rising' account have kept things going. Hope there's an alien civilization that's picked up the slack since the Aztecs quit, or that the account has overdraft protection.

Can one of you disprove that God is not behind even an apple falling to the ground?

Why would anyone be compelled to try to prove a negative?

Why would you think it's anyone's duty to disprove your extraordinary claim?

For example, say we mined away under some rocks in the middle of Africa and we uncovered solid objects that resembled tools like hammers and knifes and forks. It's much more likely that a prior civilization created the tools and instruments rather than the tools being crafted into their form through some incredibly rare geomorphological process creating them. Now, we might not know who the heck the people in Africa were or when they were there or how they got there...but it's not required for me to know the answer to this question in order for me to accept that the best explanation is that a prior civilization created them..

That would be the centuries-old watchmaker argument, aka argument by design. Next up, Pascal's Wager?

Similarly, I don't have to know what created God or have an explanation for His existence in order for me to accept the best explanation that He created existence

I thought the whole point of faith was that it didn't need evidence.

Especially since neither logic nor an honest search for evidence ever end up supporting faith.



I joke and put plenty of snark in my posts, but in the end I do respect people who believe. As I posted earlier, at times I wish I could be one of them. No offense is intended to anyone here.

 

[2win]

It might be more reasonable for me to say, rather than "there's always another layer" instead

Many layers have been peeled back in the past.
It's likely that many more will be in the future.
It's unlikely that THIS particular layer is the last, with god behind it.

I don't really think it's turtles all the way down.



But you can believe in a spontaneous or always-existing god?




That seems unlikely as well. There's no reason to believe that we're alone in in the universe or even anything special - except pride and ego, and fear that ultimately our existence is irrelevant to the universe.

So many people choose to believe in an afterlife because of that ego and fear, and that's their right. I understand the motivation there, but it doesn't bootstrap that fear into something logical.

" I understand the motivation there, but it doesn't bootstrap that fear into something logical."
This is the point where is getting interesting.
Because you are a physician - please tell me - why it was "logical" to deliver TV 10cc/kg before the ARDS trial?
Why it was "logical" to infuse colloids in sepsis?
Why it was "logical" to use Swan Ganz - if most of the MD-s didn't know how to read the data?
Why it is still "logical" to replace Ca 2+ in sepsis?
Why it was "logical" to use as a first line of treatment in MI nitroglycerin?
Why it was "logical" the use of renal dose of dopamine?
And so on..........
The "logical" stuff is human and has ....its limitation.
God is not "logical". At least not our poor, worldly approach.
2win

 

[jetproppilot]

Tough crowd here. Let it go.

"OK, OK, OK..."

(btw, that's a Joe Peschi line from a real cool movie for those of you out there going WTF?)

I apparently wasn't around for whatever transpired.

D712 is in my Inner Circle.
do you guys remember taking some psychology course as a pre med to PAD your GPA since the s h I t was so easy you could get a 4 hour A to off set your Organic 3 hour
B?



Turns out psychologically we have an

INNER CIRCLE OF FRIENDS.

We share intimate things with them knowing we are in a safety zone...no judgement...of course feedback, but no judgement..

D712 is in my INNER CIRCLE.

So I learn about this conflict between 712 and Copro

only recently.

I wasn't witness to the 712 vs Copro posts.

Haven't seen them.

Eric may be pissed at me for saying this, but hey, I've learned what a great tool HONESTY is.

COPRO NEEDS TO COME BACK.

I MISS THE MOTHER€@€KER.

 

[pgg]

Because you are a physician - please tell me - why it was "logical" to deliver TV 10cc/kg before the ARDS trial?

[...]

It was simply a best guess based on then expert opinion, but you knew that. Now we have evidence that less is better. And nobody got angry, or had their feelings hurt or worldview threatened by that change. Nor will they next time we learn something new about ARDS.

What's your point?

That medicine is faith-based, and that the faith we have in (for example) antibiotics is comparable to faith in a god? Seems to me that such an opinion both belittles science and cheapens faith.

God is not "logical". At least not our poor, worldly approach.

I agree. Which is why it's frustrating when people of faith argue that their faith is logical; that a god is the simplest or most natural explanation to anything we don't yet understand or may never understand.

If they'd just stick to "my faith is a personal thing and doesn't require evidence" there'd be no criticism from me. It's sloppy logic and this pretense of rationality that I have an unhealthy and fruitless urge to argue against.

 

[muhali3]

Belief in God comes from a feeling, not from a rational thought process. You just "know" despite not having any evidence. It's not something you can explain with science. Which means that, yes, theists should refrain from engaging in "logical" or "scientific" discussions regarding the existence of God, because there is no way to reach the conclusion that God exists using the scientific method or logical thought.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

1

 

[periopdoc]

Religion teaches us to be satisfied with areas of our existence that we otherwise might work to improve.

That's NOT true. The Christians beliefs are that we HAVE to improve. This is the ONLY reason that we are here on the Earth. We are not satisfied that we are greedy, liars, drunks, haters, despaired, depressed and so on... To "make the most of this life" means to get closer to God. This is the only meaning of life. Actually we prepare for the final chapter THE DEATH

But all of this improvement is focused on bettering your standing in the next life. You said it yourself, the whole focus is "THE DEATH." If this be true, then at best the religious man will spend a large amount of time and energy adhering to the tenets of the faith, time that could have been spent increasing his joy in this life. At worst, he will focus exclusively on the riches of the next life to the exclusion of expending energy improving his status in this life. That is what religion gives us. It teaches us to passively accept the things that are wrong in this life because things will be better in the next life so why bother. The non-believer has only this life and must live it to the fullest. There is no second chance to improve things, it is now or never.

...when we'll be judged by Christ and maybe we'll have eternal life.

Re-read your theology. We will all live forever, some of us at the right hand of the father and some in a more fiery destination.

Of course our attitude doesn't fit very well with our times. This is one of the reasons that we are not very liked by the "liberal" groups. Thanks God!!!!

Don't play the religious victim card. Atheists are still the most disliked, untrusted minority in America by a long shot. Even the gays are way ahead of us. Try being an atheist in a flyover state. Better yet, a gay atheist.

I am not miserable at all. I am blessed. I have an awesome family, good friends, great church. I am "abnormally happy". Sounds strange maybe for you but we Christians believe that the difficulties in life are a test of our faith.

and yet you said that you are so unhappy with your life that you would commit suicide if it were not for god. Look, I have lost 3 family members and several friends to suicide, and it is no joking matter. Yes, they were all "strong christians." God doesn't save you from suicide. If you meant what you said, you seriously should seek help. If you were speaking in hyperbole, I don't appreciate it.

There is no morality without theology.

You mean morality like racism, gender inequality, slavery, child abuse, filicide, genocide and ethnic cleansing as espoused in the primary texts of the major theistic religions? Thankfully societal morality has progressed beyond these abhorrent practices. However, advancement of the moral boundary has been spearheaded by the secular, often in opposition to both the leaders and the laity of the religious institutions.

By saying there is no morality without theology, you make it sound like the only reason believers aren't out raping children and murdering on a lark is out of fear of breaking some religious edict and dooming themselves to hell.

Who is the more moral character, the christian who abstains from evil only in hopes of a better future life, or the atheist who abstains from evil due to philosophical consideration of his relationship to his fellow man knowing that there is no reward for doing so?


- pod

 

[jetproppilot]

Belief in God comes from a feeling, not from a rational thought process.

So then why is there so much

rationalizing about God

going on?

 

[jetproppilot]

Jet,


Your Spiritual side needs to begin working out with those weights as well.

Peace,
Blade

Well said man.

 

[muhali3]

So then why is there so much

rationalizing about God

going on?

Because people want to ground this feeling in some sort of logic. People like to think of themselves as rational/logical beings, so they try to rationalize this feeling as much as possible. They want their feelings to make sense. They try as hard as they can to give some scientific validity to it.

But a firm belief in God is just inherently unscientific. The process of rationalizing the existence of God comes after the feeling, not before.

 

[doctor712]

"OK, OK, OK..."

(btw, that's a Joe Peschi line from a real cool movie for those of you out there going WTF?)

I apparently wasn't around for whatever transpired.

D712 is in my Inner Circle.
do you guys remember taking some psychology course as a pre med to PAD your GPA since the s h I t was so easy you could get a 4 hour A to off set your Organic 3 hour
B?



Turns out psychologically we have an

INNER CIRCLE OF FRIENDS.

We share intimate things with them knowing we are in a safety zone...no judgement...of course feedback, but no judgement..

D712 is in my INNER CIRCLE.

So I learn about this conflict between 712 and Copro

only recently.

I wasn't witness to the 712 vs Copro posts.

Haven't seen them.

HE may be pissed at me for saying this, but hey, I've learned what a great tool HONESTY is.

COPRO NEEDS TO COME BACK.

I MISS THE MOTHER€@€KER.

JPP,

I would NEVER, wait, lemme start over, who is this man you name above? Doctor712 would never be mad at you for speaking up (or writing up - heh), couldn't possibly happen. If COPRO and I can't put that behind us, or CFDAVID and me can't put that behind us, we be in for a heap of hurting!

Welcome back COPRO. Stick around this time and add some clinical stuff. The more masters on this board the BETTER!

Jet... (a la Will Ferrell) I love you mannnnn!

Jet: Downer note, I asked Tenzin Bob Thurman for the video of that lecture he gave which was EXCEPTIONALLY MEMORABLE, to which he asked ME for a copy. Ha. Apparently neither of us got a copy. So I cannot send that video, but I will post some of his YOUTUBE videos, because, man, he is CONNECTED. One day, one day...

INTERVIEW:

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=9400254

Biography: (as I said he's a prof at Columbia Univ)

http://www.bobthurman.com/index (click on BIO, or talks, lectures) etc. Credentials, second to none.

Specifically:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5cZITQDTrE&feature=related

Go here:

http://www.bobthurman.com/video

And check out LIFE video and 5 Steps, and the TED lecture.

His lectures on finding HAPPINESS were impeccable. No other word. Search for ones on SELF, HAPPINESS, INTERCONNECTION.

D712

 

[sevoflurane]

JPP,

I would NEVER, wait, lemme start over, who is this man you name above? Doctor712 would never be mad at you for speaking up (or writing up - heh), couldn't possibly happen. If COPRO and I can't put that behind us, or CFDAVID and me can't put that behind us, we be in for a heap of hurting!

Welcome back COPRO. Stick around this time and add some clinical stuff. The more masters on this board the BETTER!



D712

That a boy!

 

[sevoflurane]

I remember copro/mil/plank fiasco. Must of been on sabbatical for the d712/cf/copro opera.

 

[doctor712]

I remember copro/mil/plank fiasco. Must of been on sabbatical for the d712/cf/copro opera.

copro wasn't involved in my stuff with CF this last week.

 

[sebsvenmdc]

PGG, likening potential interaction between the Christian designer of the universe and the laws that govern it to Aztec or blood sacrifice is an unreasonable comparison. The Aztecs made limited claims about celestial interaction. Sure, the claim is there, but it's more of an Eosop's fable. I have reasonable evidence that Jesus Christ existed...I have reasonable evidence that He was the Son of God. Yes, there is an element of faith, but you place faith in your lack of a Creator too. You witness how we create things everyday and it goes beyond mechanical innate objects...we are progressing down the paths of genetic engineering, molecular biochemistry, etc so that it's not an unreasonable extrapolation to believe that we will be able to create cells with DNA and a set of microscopic machinery that can operate independent of us. We are subject to general revelation. It's not unreasonable to consider that we are created by something external to us. Equating the likelihood of that creator being Zeus to the Judeo-Christian God is about on par with the analogies of your friend across the pond. What's next? Flying teapots circling the moon?

It's also possible that physics needs blood sacrifice to keep the quarks spinning, and that the generous Aztec deposits into the celestial 'keep-the-sun-rising' account have kept things going. Hope there's an alien civilization that's picked up the slack since the Aztecs quit, or that the account has overdraft protection.



Why would anyone be compelled to try to prove a negative?

Why would you think it's anyone's duty to disprove your extraordinary claim?



That would be the centuries-old watchmaker argument, aka argument by design. Next up, Pascal's Wager?



I thought the whole point of faith was that it didn't need evidence.

Especially since neither logic nor an honest search for evidence ever end up supporting faith.



I joke and put plenty of snark in my posts, but in the end I do respect people who believe. As I posted earlier, at times I wish I could be one of them. No offense is intended to anyone here.

 

[muhali3]

I think we just need to accept that the human mind isn't capable of answering all the questions it asks. We, by evolution, are designed to think in very limited ways about the natural world. All reality is subjective, it's just what our brains interpret.

For example, a monkey and a human both live in the same world right? The same "reality" right? But really, in terms of their subjective reality, they are living in entirely different worlds. A monkey probably has a lot of questions that it could never answer. Why does this coconut float but this orange doesn't? The monkey is neurologically incapable of answering such a question. The monkey, with its limited intelligence, may come up with some bogus explanation just to try to make sense of the phenomenon.

In the same way, I think we as humans ask a lot of questions that we are just neurologically incapable of answering. What happened before the Big Bang? What happens inside of a black hole? These are questions that our minds are just not capable of answering (imo).

 

[MedicinaeDoctor]

I think we just need to accept that the human mind isn't capable of answering all the questions it asks. We, by evolution, are designed to think in very limited ways about the natural world. All reality is subjective, it's just what our brains interpret.

For example, a monkey and a human both live in the same world right? The same "reality" right? But really, in terms of their subjective reality, they are living in entirely different worlds. A monkey probably has a lot of questions that it could never answer. Why does this coconut float but this orange doesn't? The monkey is neurologically incapable of answering such a question. The monkey, with its limited intelligence, may come up with some bogus explanation just to try to make sense of the phenomenon.

In the same way, I think we as humans ask a lot of questions that we are just neurologically incapable of answering. What happened before the Big Bang? What happens inside of a black hole? These are questions that our minds are just not capable of answering (imo).

you make a great point, but the questions you raised....

well, you've essentially asked an empty question. the big bang started time. asking what is BEFORE time is meaningless.

as to what happens inside black hole? there are PLENTY of theories. ask your neighborhood Kip S. Throne.

 

[countingdays]

PGG, likening potential interaction between the Christian designer of the universe and the laws that govern it to Aztec or blood sacrifice is an unreasonable comparison. The Aztecs made limited claims about celestial interaction. Sure, the claim is there, but it's more of an Eosop's fable. I have reasonable evidence that Jesus Christ existed...I have reasonable evidence that He was the Son of God. Yes, there is an element of faith, but you place faith in your lack of a Creator too. You witness how we create things everyday and it goes beyond mechanical innate objects...we are progressing down the paths of genetic engineering, molecular biochemistry, etc so that it's not an unreasonable extrapolation to believe that we will be able to create cells with DNA and a set of microscopic machinery that can operate independent of us. We are subject to general revelation. It's not unreasonable to consider that we are created by something external to us. Equating the likelihood of that creator being Zeus to the Judeo-Christian God is about on par with the analogies of your friend across the pond. What's next? Flying teapots circling the moon?

You absolutely do not have evidence that he was the son of god. There is reasonable evidence that he was the son of a german/roman guard named pantera. If people write two opposing histories, the one that doesn't involve impossible occurrences, such as a virgin birth, is more likely.

 

[pgg]

PGG, likening potential interaction between the Christian designer of the universe and the laws that govern it to Aztec or blood sacrifice is an unreasonable comparison.

Is it? I was being about 90% facetious, but ...

The Aztecs had absolute faith that their intricate, carefully constructed mythology explained their universe and answered their questions. They had documents, relics, and oral traditions. They were satisfied that their history and evidence (not that we'd accept their "evidence") supported their belief system. They held services and conducted rituals to demonstrate their faith.

Minus the human sacrifice, is any of that really different from what any modern believer (of any faith) does?

Thanks for not sacrificing unbelievers on the steps of pyramids, by the way.

you place faith in your lack of a Creator too

There's no "faith" involved in the default position of not believing an extraordinary claim. One of the most frustrating aspects of discussing religion with believers is their incorrect and unending assertion that atheism is equally irrational faith in something else.

You don't believe leprechaun-owned pots of gold are at the end of rainbows. Your non-belief there is entirely different than the faith you have in your god.

It's not unreasonable to consider that we are created by something external to us.

It's perfectly reasonable to consider it. Indeed honesty demands that the possibility be considered. That we were genetically engineered by aliens isn't impossible - but that doesn't make them gods, or explain where they came from.

Considering and believing absent evidence are entirely different though.

You're a trained scientist. If a drug rep brought you a plate of sandwiches and a presentation on a new drug, and his "evidence" was on par with the kind of "evidence" believers point to, you'd eat his sandwiches while silently wondering how on earth the FDA ever approved the snake oil he was selling.

 

[IlDestriero]

PGG, likening potential interaction between the Christian designer of the universe and the laws that govern it to Aztec or blood sacrifice is an unreasonable comparison. The Aztecs made limited claims about celestial interaction. Sure, the claim is there, but it's more of an Eosop's fable. I have reasonable evidence that Jesus Christ existed...I have reasonable evidence that He was the Son of God. Yes, there is an element of faith, but you place faith in your lack of a Creator too. You witness how we create things everyday and it goes beyond mechanical innate objects...we are progressing down the paths of genetic engineering, molecular biochemistry, etc so that it's not an unreasonable extrapolation to believe that we will be able to create cells with DNA and a set of microscopic machinery that can operate independent of us. We are subject to general revelation. It's not unreasonable to consider that we are created by something external to us. Equating the likelihood of that creator being Zeus to the Judeo-Christian God is about on par with the analogies of your friend across the pond. What's next? Flying teapots circling the moon?

I think the Aztecs are just as likely to be correct as our friends in Rome regarding creation, etc. They just didn't stick around long enough to get their books out and start tithing. Aren't they all Aesop's fables?
Spirituality is quite different from religion, you can have a strong spiritual journey without the fable part, and it's much more common than you might think.

 

[2win]

You absolutely do not have evidence that he was the son of god. There is reasonable evidence that he was the son of a german/roman guard named pantera. If people write two opposing histories, the one that doesn't involve impossible occurrences, such as a virgin birth, is more likely.

Oh yes!!! WE do have plenty of evidence.
Only a blind cannot see it....
The best evidence is that Jesus Christ was killed by the Jews and Romans and He was risen from the death three days after. By God.
The Nicene Creed



I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten,
not created, of one essence with the Father
through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven and was incarnate
of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried;
And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
And He will come again with glory to judge the living
and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life,
Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the
Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, Who
spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the age to come.
Amen.

This is what we believe.
God bless you !
2win

 

[deleted171991]

Take a long hard look at Buddhism. You might really like what you find.
Good luck.

Second that.

 

[ReefTiger]

Great discussion. Religion is dying across the world, spirituality is not.

I do agree that the religions do focus on the "afterlife" and the sacrifices you make in this life are supposed to help you "get to heaven".

If God is all loving and forgiving then why is it judgemental and provide commandments? What is the point of free will if it isn't really free?

The universe has laws that allow it to function. All actions have a result. The energy you put out of yourself is the energy that returns to you. That is why giving is actually beneficial for you.

"God" is everything. Every thing and all of the nothing or "space" between the things. It does not matter if you believe in it or not. If belief in a higher power serves you no purpose in life, then why would you believe? Out of fear of retribution or eternity in hell upon death?

Certainly an all forgiving and loving God would never want this for "itself" which is what we are. Does this imply impunity for your actions while living your life? It may be a gamble, but ultimately you do not live a good life and you still may have to pay for your actions through society.

Know yourself and you know God. Science is nothing more than a compilation of names we give laws and observations. It will just keep doing so for as long as we exist. And science changes. Remember when Pluto was a planet? What happened? What about the atom being the smallest quantifiable thing? Didn't we split that?

It doesn't matter. If you really want proof for "god" you can find it. Looking to find it through religion is the most difficult way in my opinion. For those who can, that is great. Too often it is divisive and although it is supposed to preach tolerance and love it is practiced in the opposite through fear.

"If we understand eternity to not mean infinite temporal duration, but instead to mean timelessness, eternal life belongs to those who live in the present"
unknown

Nothing but love for you all

 

[sevoflurane]

Spirituality is quite different from religion, you can have a strong spiritual journey without the fable part, and it's much more common than you might think.

Well said. I was raised catholic, went to catholic elementary/middle school in south america, seen the pope in his bubble car.... lets just say there is a strong catholic presence in the super deep south.

Both here (US) and there (S.A.), I've seen a lot of automatons with little spirituality.

On another note, it has always bugged me to hear this:

"It is right to give him thanks and praise"... always sounded cultish to me... especially if you look at the history of the Catholic Church. (I mean no disrespect here... just exploring the topic at hand- which I find to be a good one).

In the end, I think the spiritual journey is more important than the religious one.... for some.

 

[sevoflurane]

Nothing but love for you all

 

[Dhanwanthari]

I was raised catholic, turned off by dogma, then oscillated between romanticist and existentialist philosophy, delved into religious studies in undergrad, then backpacked through the himalayan Char Dham in medical school sleeping next to 8th century hindu temples for weeks, witnessing some of the most buckwild, beautiful worship, and devotion to tens of hundreds of Gods, each representing something different yet important.

A month in a Hindu ashram and yoga school in the south of India, and I found more dogma.

The names don't matter... it's the lessons and their substance and the experience's ability to make you a better person able to enrich the lives of others.

The stories are borrowed and recycled, conserved, archetypes.

For me "meaning" comes from being present, passionate, caring, appreciative of the gift that every day is -- and accepting of the fact that I don't have the answers.

Praying, yoga, meditation, or devotion can be as simple as walking through your favorite place and thinking about just being there and appreciating that place and moment.

The beyond is here and within. We get to experience it the more we live lovingly and love living.

Whatever gets you there without impairing anyone else's journey is all good.

Christ, Buddha, Shiva, Moses, Mohammed all jump high five

[fade to white]

 

[2win]

I was raised catholic, turned off by dogma, then oscillated between romanticist and existentialist philosophy, delved into religious studies in undergrad, then backpacked through the himalayan Char Dham in medical school sleeping next to 8th century hindu temples for weeks, witnessing some of the most buckwild, beautiful worship, and devotion to tens of hundreds of Gods, each representing something different yet important.

A month in a Hindu ashram and yoga school in the south of India, and I found more dogma.

The names don't matter... it's the lessons and their substance and the experience's ability to make you a better person able to enrich the lives of others.

The stories are borrowed and recycled, conserved, archetypes.

For me "meaning" comes from being present, passionate, caring, appreciative of the gift that every day is -- and accepting of the fact that I don't have the answers.

Praying, yoga, meditation, or devotion can be as simple as walking through your favorite place and thinking about just being there and appreciating that place and moment.

The beyond is here and within. We get to experience it the more we live lovingly and love living.

Whatever gets you there without impairing anyone else's journey is all good.

Christ, Buddha, Shiva, Moses, Mohammed all jump high five

[fade to white]

I agree with you for most of what you said.
I didn't experience yoga although I did extensive reading about it.
If it is about love I am in.
Techniques in the path of Orthodox christian prayer are not geared towards breaking an illusionary world, but rather breaking our wrong orientation and psychic attachments to a very real world that has been subjected to our sinfulness. In every case, we call upon God for aid in recognition that even though we must make effort, which involves our will, we cannot break free of our worldly attachments without grace or help from God. Hence orthodox spiritual practice has a subject: our Lord and God Isa the Christ.
Similarity in Hesychast and Yogic techniques, techniques that were passed down through generations, may suggest a common root rather than an influence of Yoga on Hesychasm. Where the Yoga tradition represents a natural philosophy apart from the corrective energy of revelation, Hesychasm is the product of natural, historical human self-knowledge under the influence of divine revelation. Our orthodox Liturgical counterpart, also under the influence of divine revelation in the context of organic human transmission, include postures that have meaning and purifying effect combined with praise and supplication. This is a methodology that simultaneously includes all aspects of our nature - physical, mental, emotional - and goes hand-in-hand with "hesychast" spiritual practice and is related to it.

Again, the strong, essential role of Grace, of the energies of God, always present in Tradition since Cain and Abel, could explain why the techniques of our christian practice have not been overemphasized and subsequently developed to the degree Yoga has. Seeing that there is an underlying belief that freedom from "fallen state" rests entirely on the Yogin, there is no boundary between the source of life and illusionary life such as the boundary of Creator and creation. So if God is not creator, and no different than us (just not in our painful illusionary state), overcoming pain becomes the measure of spiritual progress, motivating the Yogic tradition to be as advanced as it is from a natural point of view. In the Christian tradition, we certainly treat wounds and heal pain, but this is not the ultimate end of what we are doing here. Our enemy is death ( ETERNAL DEATH), and it is very real. For me, Yoga is very useful in dealing with physical pain and anxiety But these things are not really spiritual per se, they are at best pre-spiritual. Nevertheless, its always nice to not be overwhelmed by stress, weighed down by "the world". However, there are points of departure in Yoga that I recognize and see no use in putting any of my energy into mainly because they are unprofitable imaginings as far as I'm concerned. Christ says "my yoke is easy, my burden is light" which I believe describes an asceticism that can only result from grace. in this biblical case "yoke" is thought to be derived from the same sanskrit word: yoga.

"God is the Lord and has revealed Himself to Us, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord."
My friends - please forgive me if I offended you.
2win

 

[countingdays]

Oh yes!!! WE do have plenty of evidence.
Only a blind cannot see it....
The best evidence is that Jesus Christ was killed by the Jews and Romans and He was risen from the death three days after. By God.
The Nicene Creed

I didn't realize that words written by sources which are questionable at best constituted evidence. As has been stated above, that would lead to belief in hundreds of religions that are mostly incompatible with each other. You don't believe in the vast majority of religions which are at least as likely as your own. I don't find words written in large red letters much more convincing than words written in the default size and color.
I guess I just don't have any reason to view the authors of the bible to be reliable sources when it comes to things like resurection, especially since the gospels don't even agree completely about the circumstances surrounding easter, not that they'd be believable without the internal contradictions.

 

[2win]

I didn't realize that words written by sources which are questionable at best constituted evidence. As has been stated above, that would lead to belief in hundreds of religions that are mostly incompatible with each other. You don't believe in the vast majority of religions which are at least as likely as your own. I don't find words written in large red letters much more convincing than words written in the default size and color.
I guess I just don't have any reason to view the authors of the bible to be reliable sources when it comes to things like resurection, especially since the gospels don't even agree completely about the circumstances surrounding easter, not that they'd be believable without the internal contradictions.

Very well my friend.
My post wasn't intended to convert you to the orthodox faith.
If you read the Holly Scriptures without the Holly Spirit....you can say anything.
For me it was good enough that you read the RED LARGE WORDS. Shows that you care and you are searching for your true GOD.
You gonna have moments in your life when you'll come back to God and you'll find Him. Your reaction is absolutely normal for our times. Please send me a message of you'd like to find more reading about God and Jesus.
AND you gonna say : this guy is crazy, a fanatical.. and so on...
I am not.
You cannot give meat for a baby who drinks milk.
Otherwise the baby could get sick.
P.S. : Besides the Holly Scripture we have also our Holly Fathers. Worth reading.
Please notice that I didn't denigrate any other people with other Gods.
I will never do that.
I will say although that there is nothing except the Holly Trinity:
GOD, JESUS and THE HOLLY SPIRIT

 

[jetproppilot]

I remember copro/mil/plank fiasco. Must of been on sabbatical for the d712/cf/copro opera.

Yeah dude I completely missed it.

I vaguely remember a few phone conversations with 712 about all the drama but never read the posts.

 

[nlfru]

"holly" **** is this post good

Very well my friend.
My post wasn't intended to convert you to the orthodox faith.
If you read the Holly Scriptures without the Holly Spirit....you can say anything.
For me it was good enough that you read the RED LARGE WORDS. Shows that you care and you are searching for your true GOD.
You gonna have moments in your life when you'll come back to God and you'll find Him. Your reaction is absolutely normal for our times. Please send me a message of you'd like to find more reading about God and Jesus.
AND you gonna say : this guy is crazy, a fanatical.. and so on...
I am not.
You cannot give meat for a baby who drinks milk.
Otherwise the baby could get sick.
P.S. : Besides the Holly Scripture we have also our Holly Fathers. Worth reading.
Please notice that I didn't denigrate any other people with other Gods.
I will never do that.
I will say although that there is nothing except the Holly Trinity:
GOD, JESUS and THE HOLLY SPIRIT

 

[jetproppilot]

Well said. I was raised catholic, went to catholic elementary/middle school in south america, seen the pope in his bubble car.... lets just say there is a strong catholic presence in the super deep south.

Both here (US) and there (S.A.), I've seen a lot of automatons with little spirituality.

On another note, it has always bugged me to hear this:

"It is right to give him thanks and praise"... always sounded cultish to me... especially if you look at the history of the Catholic Church. (I mean no disrespect here... just exploring the topic at hand- which I find to be a good one).

In the end, I think the spiritual journey is more important than the religious one.... for some.

You and I are on the same page with the catholic church.

I was raised catholic too.

I have a desire to go back to Mass.

Then I feel like I'd be living a lie if I did since the catholic church:

1)HATES GAYS.

Really? Is one's sexual preference REALLY THAT IMPORTANT when it comes to worshipping God? THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NEEDS TO STAY OUT OF PEOPLE'S BEDROOMS.

2)IS ANTI BIRTH CONTROL.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA dude thats so ridiculous I don't even know how to reply to that.

3)DISSEMINATES THE MESSAGE THAT IF YOU AREN'T CHRISTIAN WHEN "JUDGEMENT DAY" COMES, WELL, ALL YOU DIMINUTIVE NON-CHRISTIANS, GUESS WHAT? NO HEAVEN FOR YOU.

So my Jewish homies are going to hell? My homies from India? WHY, "God???" They're good people man! Would you mind, God,

COMMENTING ON THAT?????????

WHY DON'T THEY GET A HEAVEN TICKET????????????????????????????

4)I'm gonna tell you a joke for the fourth point. It's a gross, in your face joke, but when you think about it, it's not a joke at all, it's a

DEPICTION,

since it's REALLY HAPPENED, as evidenced by the tens of millions of dollars paid out by the catholic church to individuals who were sexually abused by priests.....

OK...OK....OK....

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ACNE AND A CATHOLIC PRIEST?

Acne waits until you are thirteen years old to come on your face.

BAM.

The faith I was raised in, the faith I've gravitated back to during certain points in my life, the faith I'd like to return to to ascend my spirituality,

HAS PAID OUT HUUUUUUGE SUMS OF BENJAMINS TO TRY AND QUIET THE FACT THAT CHILD ABUSING PRIESTS ARE OUT THERE. ALOT OF THEM.

Not to mention the

HYPOCRISY rampant in the catholic church.

Kinda ruins the homecoming.

TheTRUTH

hurts sometimes.

 

[rsgillmd]

I haven't had a chance to browse the forum for a little while now, because I've been busy with other things. I've skimmed through the pages on this expansive thread. I just thought I'd add my views to the mix out there.

My religion is called Sikhism. While I am religious, I am not as religious as my parents. I am not fond of rituals. One thing I like about Sikhism is that the vast majority of issues are not black and white. Our religious book is called the Guru Granth Sahib. The advice of our last human religious leader was simple: when you have questions, don't put your faith in humans. Instead consult the Guru Granth Sahib and make your own decision. It is a compilation of writings by our religious leaders but also has contributions from people of other religions. Because it is broad it makes it a timeless piece. The world will change, and we will need to change with it. The principles outlined in the Guru Granth Sahib will help us to adapt.

Regarding the abuses by Catholic priests, my view is this: these are human beings that committed these crimes. Those crimes don't change the underlying teachings. If anything they should reinforce turning to God/the Bible for advice, not priests.

The founder of our religion said there are many paths to God. If you are a Muslim, then practice the Muslim religion, if you are Christian, practice Christianity, etc. In the end all paths lead to union with God.

Hope this helped somewhat.

 

[24858]

You and I are on the same page with the catholic church.

I was raised catholic too.

I have a desire to go back to Mass.

Then I feel like I'd be living a lie if I did since the catholic church:

1)HATES GAYS.

Really? Is one's sexual preference REALLY THAT IMPORTANT when it comes to worshipping God? THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NEEDS TO STAY OUT OF PEOPLE'S BEDROOMS.

2)IS ANTI BIRTH CONTROL.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA dude thats so ridiculous I don't even know how to reply to that.

3)DISSEMINATES THE MESSAGE THAT IF YOU AREN'T CHRISTIAN WHEN "JUDGEMENT DAY" COMES, WELL, ALL YOU DIMINUTIVE NON-CHRISTIANS, GUESS WHAT? NO HEAVEN FOR YOU.

So my Jewish homies are going to hell? My homies from India? WHY, "God???" They're good people man! Would you mind, God,

COMMENTING ON THAT?????????

WHY DON'T THEY GET A HEAVEN TICKET????????????????????????????

4)I'm gonna tell you a joke for the fourth point. It's a gross, in your face joke, but when you think about it, it's not a joke at all, it's a

DEPICTION,

since it's REALLY HAPPENED, as evidenced by the tens of millions of dollars paid out by the catholic church to individuals who were sexually abused by priests.....

OK...OK....OK....

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ACNE AND A CATHOLIC PRIEST?

Acne waits until you are thirteen years old to come on your face.

BAM.

The faith I was raised in, the faith I've gravitated back to during certain points in my life, the faith I'd like to return to to ascend my spirituality,

HAS PAID OUT HUUUUUUGE SUMS OF BENJAMINS TO TRY AND QUIET THE FACT THAT CHILD ABUSING PRIESTS ARE OUT THERE. ALOT OF THEM.

Not to mention the

HYPOCRISY rampant in the catholic church.

Kinda ruins the homecoming.

TheTRUTH

hurts sometimes.

This seems like a baiting post. Like you are trying to fan the fires, to get people upset and see the viral reaction of responses. Did you get that joke about ejaculation onto a child's face from your kid in elementary school? Cuz it sounds pretty childish to me.
I am not Catholic, I am not here to defend Catholics, it just seems like if you dont want to go to Catholic church fine, leave it at that, but to totally derail your ex church, seems petty to me. Sure they have made mistakes, and sure you may not want to go back, but leave it at that. I see how you have been divorced in the past, it would be low life if you go around after your divorce and tell others what a slut she is, what a mentally deranged individual she was or is, and some of the private things she may have told you to back up your claims. It seems very petty to me, and it is sad that you come on her looking for guidance, yet you use it as a soapbox to make your ex church look pathetic.

 

[24858]

Its not only the Catholics who hate gays:

Leviticus 18:22 is translated: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Ezekiel 16:49-50
49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen."

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

"Both of them – fornication and homosexuality – involve immorality that goes against the wisdom of Allah’s creation and commandment. For homosexuality involves innumerable evil and harms, and the one to whom it is done would be better off being killed than having this done to him, because after that he will become so evil and so corrupt that there can be no hope of his being reformed, and all good is lost for him, and he will no longer feel any shame before Allah or before His creation. The semen of the one who did that to him will act as a poison on his body and soul. The scholars differed as to whether the one to whom it is done will ever enter Paradise.

Gampopa (12th century), one of the main early masters of the Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism, followed the Indian Buddhist tradition, starting with the third-century Hinayana texts of Vasubandhu, that oral and anal sex, whether with a man or a woman, are violations of the third precept regarding inappropriate sexual behavior. Longchenpa, the 13th century founder of the Nyingma school, citing the third-century Mahayana texts of the Indian master Asanga, elaborated that inappropriate sexual behavior also include the hands among inappropriate parts of the body for sexual activity.[28] Subsequent Tibetan masters from all four schools of Tibetan buddhism accept all these specifications as delineated in the earlier Indian Buddhist texts.
The current Dalai Lama follows the traditional Tibetan Buddhist assertion that inappropriate sexual behaviour includes lesbian and gay sex, and indeed any sex other than penis-vagina intercourse with one's own monogamous partner, including oral sex, anal sex, and masturbation.

But in the same vein:
The Torah is composed of the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). It contains numerous laws which make up the Mosaic code. Rabbi Simlai wrote in the Talmud (Jewish traditional commentary about the Hebrew Scriptures) that God gave 613 commandments to Moses. One list finds 3 commandments in Genesis, 111 in Exodus, 247 in Leviticus, 52 in Numbers and 200 in Deuteronomy. These included 365 prohibitions -- a number equal to the nominal number of days in the year. Also included are 248 positive commandments which Rabbi Simlai said corresponded "to the number of organs and limbs in the human body." Hundreds of these dealt with animal sacrifices and other topics that are not currently practiced. That leaves about 300 commandments that can be practiced today.

The Holiness Code in the Torah permits:

slavery (Leviticus 25:44)
The code requires:

A child to be killed if he/she curses their parent (Leviticus 20:9)
All persons guilty of adultery to be killed (20:10)
The daughter of a priest who engages in prostitution to be burned alive until dead (21:9)
The bride of a priest to be a virgin (21:13)
Ritual killing of animals, using cattle, sheep and goats (22:19)
Observation of 7 feasts: Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Firstfruits, Feast of Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles (23)
A person who takes the Lord's name in vain is to be killed (24:16)
The code prohibits:

Heterosexual intercourse when a woman has her period (Leviticus 18:19),
Harvesting the corners of a field (19:9),
Eating fruit from a young tree (19:23),
Cross-breeding livestock (19:19),
Sowing a field with mixed seed (19:19),
Shaving or getting a hair cut (19:27),
Tattoos (19:28),
Even a mildly disabled person from becoming a priest (21:18),
Charging of interest on a loan (25:37),
Collecting firewood on Saturday to prevent your family from freezing,
Wearing of clothes made from a blend of textile materials; today this might be cotton and polyester, and
Eating of non-kosher foods (e.g. shrimp). This prohibition has been satirized on the God Hates Shrimp website.


I dont adhere to most of the Mosaic code, so why does homosexuality have special pertinence? To be fair some who believe God commands not to have homosexual relations point to Romans 1:28.
Personally, I dont know. I dont hate gays/lesbians, like jet says, I try to love all people, but I am not sure if homosexual relations is something my zen teacher, Jesus, would agree with. There has been a lot of advancements recently in homosexuality equality...again I try to love everyone to the best of my ability, I allow myself to make judgements I am not some hedonistic sophist. I need to be honest with myself and others and maintain an ethical and intellectual cohesion. To me a hedonist is the equivalent of an intellectual slime, might as well be a nothing, because as a hedonist you are nothing, you accept everything, judge nothing, and are incapable of forming your own intellectual arguments, you go where the masses take you, you cant think for your self.
That being said, I am not anti gay, I am pro Jesus.

 

[jetproppilot]

This seems like a baiting post. Like you are trying to fan the fires, to get people upset and see the viral reaction of responses. Did you get that joke about ejaculation onto a child's face from your kid in elementary school?

A baiting post? Are you serious? The catholic priest abuses are far and wide. Not a focal issue. A ubiquitous issue. I don't have to, as you say, BAIT. There's enough YUKKINESS out there to quell your response.

Cuz it sounds pretty childish to me.

You intended that response to be an insult. BZZZZZZZZ I'M SORRY! YOU MISSED! I'm childish at heart, Slim....think that's insulting? DO YOU KNOW I AM RUBBER AND YOU ARE GLUE AND EVERYTHING YOU SAY BOUNCES OFF ME AND STICKS TO YOU??????
Save your judgemental assessments.


I am not Catholic, I am not here to defend Catholics, it just seems like if you dont want to go to Catholic church fine, leave it at that, but to totally derail your ex church, seems petty to me. Sure they have made mistakes


, no slim, you saying "SURE THEY HAVE MADE MISTAKES" is a patronizing insult! Especially since you aren't catholic! Who are you to judge how I feel about a faith I grew up in that has experienced recent scandal that defies reality?



and sure you may not want to go back, but leave it at that. I see how you have been divorced in the past, it would be low life if you go around after your divorce and tell others what a slut she is, what a mentally deranged individual she was or is, and some of the private things she may have told you to back up your claims. It seems very petty to me, and it is sad that you come on her looking for guidance, yet you use it as a soapbox to make your ex church look pathetic.



The more you post, Slim, the weirder you become. Are you stalking me or something?

 

[24858]

I haven't had a chance to browse the forum for a little while now, because I've been busy with other things. I've skimmed through the pages on this expansive thread. I just thought I'd add my views to the mix out there.

My religion is called Sikhism. While I am religious, I am not as religious as my parents. I am not fond of rituals. One thing I like about Sikhism is that the vast majority of issues are not black and white. Our religious book is called the Guru Granth Sahib. The advice of our last human religious leader was simple: when you have questions, don't put your faith in humans. Instead consult the Guru Granth Sahib and make your own decision. It is a compilation of writings by our religious leaders but also has contributions from people of other religions. Because it is broad it makes it a timeless piece. The world will change, and we will need to change with it. The principles outlined in the Guru Granth Sahib will help us to adapt.

Regarding the abuses by Catholic priests, my view is this: these are human beings that committed these crimes. Those crimes don't change the underlying teachings. If anything they should reinforce turning to God/the Bible for advice, not priests.

The founder of our religion said there are many paths to God. If you are a Muslim, then practice the Muslim religion, if you are Christian, practice Christianity, etc. In the end all paths lead to union with God.

Hope this helped somewhat.

Are you a mona (sp?) Sikh? Are you allowed to carry a knife on a plane, is there a special religious allowance?

 

[24858]

This seems like a baiting post. Like you are trying to fan the fires, to get people upset and see the viral reaction of responses. Did you get that joke about ejaculation onto a child's face from your kid in elementary school?

A baiting post? Are you serious? The catholic priest abuses are far and wide. Not a focal issue. A ubiquitous issue. I don't have to, as you say, BAIT. There's enough YUKKINESS out there to quell your response.

Cuz it sounds pretty childish to me.

You intended that response to be an insult. BZZZZZZZZ I'M SORRY! YOU MISSED! I'm childish at heart, Slim....think that's insulting? DO YOU KNOW I AM RUBBER AND YOU ARE GLUE AND EVERYTHING YOU SAY BOUNCES OFF ME AND STICKS TO YOU??????
Save your judgemental assessments.

I am not Catholic, I am not here to defend Catholics, it just seems like if you dont want to go to Catholic church fine, leave it at that, but to totally derail your ex church, seems petty to me. Sure they have made mistakes, no slim, you saying "SURE THEY HAVE MADE MISTAKES" is a patronizing insult! Especially since you aren't catholic! Who are you to judge how I feel about a faith I grew up in that has experienced recent scandal that defies reality?



and sure you may not want to go back, but leave it at that. I see how you have been divorced in the past, it would be low life if you go around after your divorce and tell others what a slut she is, what a mentally deranged individual she was or is, and some of the private things she may have told you to back up your claims. It seems very petty to me, and it is sad that you come on her looking for guidance, yet you use it as a soapbox to make your ex church look pathetic.



The more you post, Slim, the weirder you become. Are you stalking me or something?

Yeah Im stalking you, get a life. LOL, another baiting post, man I have fallen for your crap. Look I am not going to get into a pissing match with you. Call me weird, call me whatever, I could really give a crap about what you think. Im slim, fat, weird, whatever, go for it, knock yourself out dude. Have fun with it, whoo hooo.
Just dont ask me to answer a 72 question list like your INNER circle friend there doctor90210 hollywood script writer forgot to take my pills today pal there slim UUMMKAY?

 

[2win]

Hi Jet - with all my love - I am not a Catholic BUT
1) The Christians ( including Catholics don't HATE homosexuals. We love them because they are also created in the image of God like all of us. They felt from the path ( remember Sodoma and Gomora) and we are here to HELP them. Of course they are not allowed to take the Holly Communion because they are sinners. Also - us - we are not allowed to do that if we don't love everybody. I said EVERYBODY. Including them.
3) Christians believe that the judgement is up to Jesus, Not to us. We just try to improve ourselves. I am so busy with my own salvation right now that I cannot afford to judge others. Not only that - in our prayer we say " please forgive me as I forgive others". Pretty clear....
2) Of course God is against abortion. We don't kill. I know that here is a lot of controversy. I'll elaborate later.

I know that there were cases of sexual abuse. BUT again you cannot judge the church because some individuals sinned.
Looked back o YOUR life, try to repair the damages.
You are a fortunate man by GOD, you have a great kid, you are healthy , your business is good.....
I think that you are on a good path. Your started a great thread.
It is not up to me as a Christian to judge Jewish, Muslims, Hindu, Sikhs and so on.
In my life I met a lot of non Christians that were REALLY BETTER THAN ME.
My job is for me to get better and closer to Christ.
Have a good night my friend,
2win

 

[jetproppilot]

Yeah Im stalking you, get a life. LOL, another baiting post, man I have fallen for your crap. Look I am not going to get into a pissing match with you. Call me weird, call me whatever, I could really give a crap about what you think. Im slim, fat, weird, whatever, go for it, knock yourself out dude. Have fun with it, whoo hooo.
Just dont ask me to answer a 72 question list like your INNER circle friend there doctor90210 hollywood script writer forgot to take my pills today pal there slim UUMMKAY?

Know what I know,

Slim?

Your posting style is remarkably similar to someone from years back.

I don't think you are who you say you are.

Arch, this dude is representing himself as an anesthesiologist. An

ATTENDING.

I'm questioning that.

I think this person is an imposter, here with an ulterior motive.

Any way to verify his (her) Legit Score?

 

[24858]

Know what I know,

Slim?

Your posting style is remarkably similar to someone from years back.

I don't think you are who you say you are.

Arch, this dude is representing himself as an anesthesiologist. An

ATTENDING.

I'm questioning that

I think this person is an imposter, here with an ulterior motive.

Zzzzzzz....boring . I already sent in my request for the private forum. Gave my ASA number. If u look into it, you would be breaking a contractual arrangement I have made with Arch maintaining my confidentiality which I hold this site to.

Any way to verify his (her) Legit Score?