Hey it's Jet. I need some advice.

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Hi Jet - with all my love - I am not a Catholic BUT
1) The Christians ( including Catholics don't HATE homosexuals. We love them because they are also created in the image of God like all of us. They felt from the path ( remember Sodoma and Gomora) and we are here to HELP them. Of course they are not allowed to take the Holly Communion because they are sinners. Also - us - we are not allowed to do that if we don't love everybody. I said EVERYBODY. Including them.
3) Christians believe that the judgement is up to Jesus, Not to us. We just try to improve ourselves. I am so busy with my own salvation right now that I cannot afford to judge others. Not only that - in our prayer we say " please forgive me as I forgive others". Pretty clear....
2) Of course God is against abortion. We don't kill. I know that here is a lot of controversy. I'll elaborate later.

I know that there were cases of sexual abuse. BUT again you cannot judge the church because some individuals sinned.
Looked back o YOUR life, try to repair the damages.
You are a fortunate man by GOD, you have a great kid, you are healthy , your business is good.....
I think that you are on a good path. Your started a great thread.
It is not up to me as a Christian to judge Jewish, Muslims, Hindu, Sikhs and so on.
In my life I met a lot of non Christians that were REALLY BETTER THAN ME.
My job is for me to get better and closer to Christ.
Have a good night my friend,
2win


2win,

it's obvious by your posts that you are well intended, but it sounds like you've been

BRAINWASHED:


You said gay people are

SINNERS.


Do you really believe that?

I've got this dude friend.

CRNA.

Total DESIGNER.:laugh:

Completely outta the closet.

He's in my

INNER CIRCLE.

I've got this dudette friend.

Total DESIGNER.

Completely outta the closet.

Actually she was married for an extended period, has kids, went thru an HONESTY TRANSITION PERIOD,

and now lives happily with her female partner and children.

I don't care what people in my inner circle do in their bedrooms.

The catholic church shouldn't care either.

Members don't see this ad.
 
You and I are on the same page with the catholic church.

I was raised catholic too.

I have a desire to go back to Mass.

Then I feel like I'd be living a lie if I did since the catholic church:

1)HATES GAYS.

Really? Is one's sexual preference REALLY THAT IMPORTANT when it comes to worshipping God? THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NEEDS TO STAY OUT OF PEOPLE'S BEDROOMS.

2)IS ANTI BIRTH CONTROL.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA dude thats so ridiculous I don't even know how to reply to that.

3)DISSEMINATES THE MESSAGE THAT IF YOU AREN'T CHRISTIAN WHEN "JUDGEMENT DAY" COMES, WELL, ALL YOU DIMINUTIVE NON-CHRISTIANS, GUESS WHAT? NO HEAVEN FOR YOU.

So my Jewish homies are going to hell? My homies from India? WHY, "God???" They're good people man! Would you mind, God,

COMMENTING ON THAT?????????

WHY DON'T THEY GET A HEAVEN TICKET????????????????????????????


4)I'm gonna tell you a joke for the fourth point. It's a gross, in your face joke, but when you think about it, it's not a joke at all, it's a

DEPICTION,

since it's REALLY HAPPENED, as evidenced by the tens of millions of dollars paid out by the catholic church to individuals who were sexually abused by priests.....


OK...OK....OK....

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ACNE AND A CATHOLIC PRIEST?


Acne waits until you are thirteen years old to come on your face.

BAM.

The faith I was raised in, the faith I've gravitated back to during certain points in my life, the faith I'd like to return to to ascend my spirituality,

HAS PAID OUT HUUUUUUGE SUMS OF BENJAMINS TO TRY AND QUIET THE FACT THAT CHILD ABUSING PRIESTS ARE OUT THERE. ALOT OF THEM.

Not to mention the

HYPOCRISY rampant in the catholic church.


Kinda ruins the homecoming.

TheTRUTH

hurts sometimes.

Jet, but you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. (mostly this is speaking in general terms and not a direct response to you personally)

Personally, I agree with some of the others that spirituality need not be expressed or developed in the form of a religion. But, if you already have a "basis" for your spirituality, then perhaps it could best be developed (or redeveloped) within that same context.

Truthfully, I've tried to point out that there are EXTREMES of all major faiths. Yes, the gay marriage thing in Catholisism seems a bit much. Sure, Kosher is a cruel practice. Yes, Islamic law would not be a very pleasant construct for most.
(not making comparisons between those three examples but rather illustrating three examples of extremes within those respective religions).

This doesn't make all of Catholicism, Judaism, or Islam BAD. I realize you know that. Just sayin.

The "word" of all of those religions is critical of ALL of those same issues which you've just described. Really critical, in my understanding which isn't hard to research. Christianity, being the major religion in the U.S., often is very SELF-CRITICAL. Being in the majority, it's considered acceptable (generally that is) to criticize Christianity and to point out it's imperfections and inconsistencies. This might not be the case with some other faiths, which being in the minority might be more sensitive to similar criticism to the extent that it seems as if there are little controversies or similar discussions, interfaith, to those which you are describing. But, it seems that there are very lively debates in areas in which those other two religions are of the majority. We just don't see it as much in the U.S. for reasons stated above.

Much of the banter on this thread has to do with the concept of "faith". So, your Jewish buddies whom you mentioned "seem to have it all figured out" stem from an imperfect faith, much like they all might be considered by rational people IF TAKEN LITERALLY on all issues (see MeaCulpa's examples, or just investigate it yourself). The point is, if THAT'S having it "all figured out" then perhaps those guys are a little more extreme than you believe. OR, the more likely scenario is that they "have it all figured out" because they probably DON'T take it word for word.....

The Muslim dude whom seems to live life with such balance and peace, doesn't represent extremist Islam but rather something more suited to an ideology which works for him, in his own form of spirituality. But, he still identifies with Islam. You can also be a Catholic (or Jewish or Muslim for that matter) whom accepts differences in sexuality, or marital law..... I don't think these things need to be mutually exclusive even in spite of what the leadership of all of those religions might suggest, technically.

That being said, when you really DO read, word for word, some of the writings of ALL 3 major religions, you can see why the Orthodox (not picking on Eastern "Orthodox", but using that as meaning fundamentalist) might be, indeed, considered very extreme by some including me.

Perhaps I approach these issues from a little bit of a different perspective. It's just that reading the actual TEXT of each of the monolithic religions, most NON-extreme folks might run for the hills. But, I think it has to be put into the historical context, which, as you've pointed out, DOES often perpetuate for quite a long time (various positions, practices, rituals, whatever). However, that's not, IMHO, a reason to abandon a particular faith (not putting words in your mouth, just commenting).

I just feel that for someone with close ties to any particular religion to abandon that religion in favor of ANY OTHER monotheistic religion on the grounds that there might be LESS controversies, inconsistencies, outdated beliefs or extremes WITHIN the faith, would be a big mistake. (again, Jet, I'm not speaking to you on this one. Just "speaking" aloud I guess)

Also, one could identify closely with his/her traditional religion, from a cultural perspective only, mainly, or in part, while further developing his/her own sense of spirituality which may be somewhat more removed from the traditional one.

Just a few thoughts.
 
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You and I are on the same page with the catholic church.

I was raised catholic too.

I have a desire to go back to Mass.

Then I feel like I'd be living a lie if I did since the catholic church:

1)HATES GAYS.

Really? Is one's sexual preference REALLY THAT IMPORTANT when it comes to worshipping God? THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NEEDS TO STAY OUT OF PEOPLE'S BEDROOMS.

2)IS ANTI BIRTH CONTROL.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA dude thats so ridiculous I don't even know how to reply to that.

3)DISSEMINATES THE MESSAGE THAT IF YOU AREN'T CHRISTIAN WHEN "JUDGEMENT DAY" COMES, WELL, ALL YOU DIMINUTIVE NON-CHRISTIANS, GUESS WHAT? NO HEAVEN FOR YOU.

So my Jewish homies are going to hell? My homies from India? WHY, "God???" They're good people man! Would you mind, God,

COMMENTING ON THAT?????????

WHY DON'T THEY GET A HEAVEN TICKET????????????????????????????


4)I'm gonna tell you a joke for the fourth point. It's a gross, in your face joke, but when you think about it, it's not a joke at all, it's a

DEPICTION,

since it's REALLY HAPPENED, as evidenced by the tens of millions of dollars paid out by the catholic church to individuals who were sexually abused by priests.....


OK...OK....OK....

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ACNE AND A CATHOLIC PRIEST?


Acne waits until you are thirteen years old to come on your face.

BAM.

The faith I was raised in, the faith I've gravitated back to during certain points in my life, the faith I'd like to return to to ascend my spirituality,

HAS PAID OUT HUUUUUUGE SUMS OF BENJAMINS TO TRY AND QUIET THE FACT THAT CHILD ABUSING PRIESTS ARE OUT THERE. ALOT OF THEM.

Not to mention the

HYPOCRISY rampant in the catholic church.


Kinda ruins the homecoming.

TheTRUTH

hurts sometimes.

2win,

it's obvious by your posts that you are well intended, but it sounds lie you've been

BRAINWASHED:


You said gay people are

SINNERS.


Do you really believe that?

I've got this dude friend.

CRNA.

Total DESIGNER.:laugh:

Completely outta the closet.

He's in my

INNER CIRCLE.

I've got this dudette friend.

Total DESIGNER.

Completely outta the closet.

Actually she was married for an extended period, has kids, went thru an HONESTY TRANSITION PERIOD,

and now lives happily with her female partner and children.

I don't care what people in my inner circle do in their bedrooms.

The catholic church shouldn't care either.

Yes - THEY ARE SINNERS.
BUT I AM TOO.
I am not "brainwashed" enough...That's the problem ;)
It is NOT the bedroom,
They "have" children....
HOW COME?????
They want to live a "natural" life BUT they can't.
So what do they do?
BUY some sperm....
And they will say that the kid is the product of their "love"....
Oh,,,,,my Benz I could say also that is my kid. (Although I am almost there :)
C'mmon man - it is not about what other people do in their bed....
2win
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Yes - THEY ARE SINNERS.
BUT I AM TOO.
I am not "brainwashed" enough...That's the problem ;)
It is NOT the bedroom,
They "have" children....
HOW COME?????
They want to live a "natural" life BUT they can't.
So what do they do?
BUY some sperm....
And they will say that the kid is the product of their "love"....
Oh,,,,,my Benz I could say also that is my kid. (Although I am almost there :)
C'mmon man - it is not about what other people do in their bed....
2win

I dunno man.

I'm just trying to

call it like I see it.

And I see you being

VERY JUDGEMENTAL.
 
Surprisingly this has been a decent thread so far: some excellent posts (and some not so excellent ones). It's always interesting seeing others' opinions on religion, especially as it's not something that is always kosher (pun intended) for workplace conversations.

As background: raised United Methodist, still consider myself Christian. Had a tough time identifying with a Christian youth group in college (most were a little extreme) so drifted away a little bit. Yet paradoxically felt like if anything I grew spiritually. Minored in religion, for what that's worth... Took a class on C.S. Lewis and was pretty impressed. Now married to a half-Catholic/half-Jew; the ceremony was performed by a Unitarian. Still haven't really found a new religious community which is a little frustrating to me; but I also haven't had a ton of free time/opportunity on my hands recently.

The Religion vs Spirituality debate is an interesting one. To me, it seems like it breaks down roughly as "group" vs "individual." Each have their advantages and disadvantages. On the one hand, I am a firm believer that "he who teaches himself has a fool for a master." We all need guidance from experts/those who know more than ourselves. On the other hand, you open yourself up to becoming a victim of dogma or "because X said so." Also, as with any sort of group dynamic, there has to be some sort of hierarchy. And as with any hierarchy, there is going to be someone clamoring to be at the top of that hierarchy. I don't think any of us would disagree that history is full of individuals who entered/used religion for the power associated with it.

And like many people (in general and on this board), I struggle with the issue of the validity of Scripture. It strikes me a incredibly silly to be following 2000 year-old commandments to the T when the overwhelming majority of them are time-specific, yet it strikes me as equally dangerous to say it's OK to pick and choose items at our own discretion because that leads to an entirely new set of prejudices.

How to resolve those issues? I certainly don't know. My life experience so far tells me that the message at the core of the Bible and of Jesus' teachings and many other world religions is the Golden Rule: treat others with respect and compassion. That strikes me as the one message that is not era-specific nor culturally-specific, though you could certainly argue that point with regards to specifics and I couldn't disprove you. That's just my general impression based on what I've been taught/read/experienced.
 
In your quest Jet (and any other introspective types), I think you need to consider what you want to get out of a religious affiliation/exploration.

Do you want to find something that challenges you to be different, in better ways (i.e. more charitable, forgiving, patient,), but that may require some sacrifice on your part, including acceptance of new ideas, behaviors, notions about God's relationship to man, commandments/laws etc?

Alternatively, you can seek to find something that already coincides with your worldview, requires no behavior modification, requires no acceptance of ideas that may on the surface seem non-intuitive or "illogical"(to use the loaded term), requires no real further spiritual exploration via meditation, prayer, study of sacred texts, etc.

In my opinion and experience, the former alternative is difficult. It is challenging. It can require admitting that perhaps your understanding of the world and universe is incomplete, and that finding answers to questions can take a lot of time and effort, requiring prayer, introspection, study, and meditation. Changing behaviors that are ingrained for decades is difficult. The upside of choosing the first path, however, is that the answers you find are durable, the changes to your behavior are more lasting, and eventually that spiritual yearning is more completely satiated.

If you choose the second alternative, the path is easy. It's not hard to find someone willing to preach what you want to hear. It's not hard to affiliate yourself with something that says "you're just fine the way you are, nothing needs to change". You're also not going to satisfy the lack that you alluded to in your original post, because, really, nothing has changed. YOu still have the same behaviors and beliefs, so it doesn't seem reasonable to expect to feel any different if you haven't changed anything, does it?

When you go to the gym, do you pick up 100lb dumbells, break a sweat, and work to get better? or do you pick up the 2lb pilates "toning" weights, and take it easy?
 
In your quest Jet (and any other introspective types), I think you need to consider what you want to get out of a religious affiliation/exploration.

Do you want to find something that challenges you to be different, in better ways (i.e. more charitable, forgiving, patient,), but that may require some sacrifice on your part, including acceptance of new ideas, behaviors, notions about God's relationship to man, commandments/laws etc?

Alternatively, you can seek to find something that already coincides with your worldview, requires no behavior modification, requires no acceptance of ideas that may on the surface seem non-intuitive or "illogical"(to use the loaded term), requires no real further spiritual exploration via meditation, prayer, study of sacred texts, etc.

In my opinion and experience, the former alternative is difficult. It is challenging. It can require admitting that perhaps your understanding of the world and universe is incomplete, and that finding answers to questions can take a lot of time and effort, requiring prayer, introspection, study, and meditation. Changing behaviors that are ingrained for decades is difficult. The upside of choosing the first path, however, is that the answers you find are durable, the changes to your behavior are more lasting, and eventually that spiritual yearning is more completely satiated.

If you choose the second alternative, the path is easy. It's not hard to find someone willing to preach what you want to hear. It's not hard to affiliate yourself with something that says "you're just fine the way you are, nothing needs to change". You're also not going to satisfy the lack that you alluded to in your original post, because, really, nothing has changed. YOu still have the same behaviors and beliefs, so it doesn't seem reasonable to expect to feel any different if you haven't changed anything, does it?

When you go to the gym, do you pick up 100lb dumbells, break a sweat, and work to get better? or do you pick up the 2lb pilates "toning" weights, and take it easy?


No dude.

I don't want the 2lb pilates dumbbells.

I want

The Truth.

I have close Jewish friends that do not believe Jesus was the son of god. That's completely against my teachings; if and when I go back to mass I'll be thinking about my Jewish homies....they don't think that....yet all the people in this catholic church think that Jesus.....

I hate to have to break it down to this level

BUT

THERE EXISTS

TWO SOCIETIES


believing

2 completely different, very important, very religious

VIEWS.


Jewish homie (we've been friends since 1988) and I go back and forth....affectionately, yet conflicting in

Who's Got The RIGHT

Story.


I really don't know which one of us is right and which one is wrong when it comes to the Jesus thing.

I enjoy the fraternity-esque debates.....neither is trying to

WIN....

yet we confront each other with completely different sides of the spectrum....both of us are MDs, both of us are pretty intelligent, yet when it comes to this subject obviously


somebody's right and somebody's wrong.

I don't care whether I'm right or wrong with my affectionate banter with my Jewish buddy.

I just

WANNA KNOW THE TRUTH.

Is Jesus the son of god?

Ok.

OR,

Is god IT, the Christian faith has been misguided, Jesus is NOT the son of god?

Ok.

I'm not on either team.

I just wanna

KNOW.
 
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I like and respect 2Win and his thoughts, but I really have a hard time with the conservative view, in 2011, that Homosexuals are sinning. I think that if more people just let others (stepping behind my piano to crank out, oh, I dunno, some happy lovey dovey Rick Springfield ballad) just enjoy themselves in peace and quiet, we'd be a MUCH better place.

My Aunt, circa 1950s, was electroshocked as they tried to DE-GAY women at that time. My Uncle died of AIDS in the 90s. Both had been through hell in their lives. Why? To what end? Does it really matter who makes you happy?

To the conservative, yes, apparently it does. We've come a long way since 1950s, and I think we have much progress to make. But to say someone is sinning, and then claim not to be judgmental about it, when in fact, that is indeed the definition of judgmental, doesn't sit well with me and that's when I would zone out if these conversations took place in person. I just don't have time for that sort of God-playing. Go to LA, live there for a year, suddenly, sexuality and openness just don't make you blink an eye anymore. I do respect 2Wins feelings and opinions however.

D712

p.s. as for MeaCulpa and his interest in Jet and my "INNER CIRCLE", :laugh::love::laugh::love::laugh::love::laugh::love::laugh::love:
 
Jet, I think, with rare exception, the closer you get to "I KNOW", the further you are from actually getting it.
 
James 1:5-6

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

*6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

If you really want to know... you are doing the right thing by reseaching and trying to figure it out. Ultimately humble yourself, get on your knees, and ask God in faith. You'll figure it out.



No dude.

I don't want the 2lb pilates dumbbells.

I want

The Truth.

I have close Jewish friends that do not believe Jesus was the son of god. That's completely against my teachings; if and when I go back to mass I'll be thinking about my Jewish homies....they don't think that....yet all the people in this catholic church think that Jesus.....

I hate to have to break it down to this level

BUT

THERE EXISTS

TWO SOCIETIES


believing

2 completely different, very important, very religious

VIEWS.


Jewish homie (we've been friends since 1988) and I go back and forth....affectionately, yet conflicting in

Who's Got The RIGHT

Story.


I really don't know which one of us is right and which one is wrong when it comes to the Jesus thing.

I enjoy the fraternity-esque debates.....neither is trying to

WIN....

yet we confront each other with completely different sides of the spectrum....both of us are MDs, both of us are pretty intelligent, yet when it comes to this subject obviously


somebody's right and somebody's wrong.

I don't care whether I'm right or wrong with my affectionate banter with my Jewish buddy.

I just

WANNA KNOW THE TRUTH.

Is Jesus the son of god?

Ok.

OR,

Is god IT, the Christian faith has been misguided, Jesus is NOT the son of god?

Ok.

I'm not on either team.

I just wanna

KNOW.
 
Know what I know,

Slim?

Your posting style is remarkably similar to someone from years back.

I don't think you are who you say you are.

Arch, this dude is representing himself as an anesthesiologist. An

ATTENDING.


I'm questioning that.

I think this person is an imposter, here with an ulterior motive.

Any way to verify his (her) Legit Score?
Briefly looking back at his 6 years of posts, he/she should be an attending level anesthesiologist by this time. His posts covered med school, comlex exam, internship, residency, fellowship, etc. over the years. That's a lot of well planned and well timed deception if he's an imposter. It's KGB level deception. Is he a AANA sleeper? (looking back over shoulders) :laugh:
 
Are you a mona (sp?) Sikh? Are you allowed to carry a knife on a plane, is there a special religious allowance?

I haven't heard the term mona before. Maybe something lost in translation from Punjabi to English. I am not an Amritdhari (equivalent of orthodox) Sikh.

When I came to the U.S. for the first time in 1985 I wore a Kirpan (ceremonial dagger), but that was mainly because we were bringing it for my aunt. I did not have any problems then. I do not wear one on a daily basis, so I have not tried to carry it onto a plane.

I do not cut my hair or shave. That's as much for personal reasons as for religious reasons. I would find it strange if I shaved or cut my hair. It is a part of my identity. While it is against the religion to cut your hair, I do not hold any ill will against people who do so. A person who cuts their hair but follows the principles of the religion (believes in one god, that everyone is equal, etc.) is a better person in my eyes than a person who keeps their hair, but disgraces the religion through their actions.

I do not drink alcohol, smoke, or do drugs. This is again for both personal as well as religious reasons. Unfortunately Punjabis have created the stereotype of being heavy drinkers.

I say some brief prayers in the morning as I'm getting ready, a brief prayer before I eat, and attend Gurudwara (our equivalent of a church) on Sundays when I can and feel like it (sometimes I'm just too lazy).

Although I find it hard to understand at times how God can allow atrocities/bad events to take place, I remind myself that I do not have the big picture. I just take the good with the bad and try to keep my faith strong.
 
Briefly looking back at his 6 years of posts, he/she should be an attending level anesthesiologist by this time. His posts covered med school, comlex exam, internship, residency, fellowship, etc. over the years. That's a lot of well planned and well timed deception if he's an imposter. It's KGB level deception. Is he a AANA sleeper? (looking back over shoulders) :laugh:

Ok.

Sorry. :D
 
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No dude.

I don't want the 2lb pilates dumbbells.

I want

The Truth.

I have close Jewish friends that do not believe Jesus was the son of god. That's completely against my teachings; if and when I go back to mass I'll be thinking about my Jewish homies....they don't think that....yet all the people in this catholic church think that Jesus.....

I hate to have to break it down to this level

BUT

THERE EXISTS

TWO SOCIETIES


believing

2 completely different, very important, very religious

VIEWS.


Jewish homie (we've been friends since 1988) and I go back and forth....affectionately, yet conflicting in

Who's Got The RIGHT

Story.


I really don't know which one of us is right and which one is wrong when it comes to the Jesus thing.

I enjoy the fraternity-esque debates.....neither is trying to

WIN....

yet we confront each other with completely different sides of the spectrum....both of us are MDs, both of us are pretty intelligent, yet when it comes to this subject obviously


somebody's right and somebody's wrong.

I don't care whether I'm right or wrong with my affectionate banter with my Jewish buddy.

I just

WANNA KNOW THE TRUTH.

Is Jesus the son of god?

Ok.

OR,

Is god IT, the Christian faith has been misguided, Jesus is NOT the son of god?

Ok.

I'm not on either team.

I just wanna

KNOW.

The Jewish folks don't KNOW that Jesus was the son of God or not just as you don't KNOW that he is, and similarly just as the Muslims don't know Mohammed was who they believe him to be. It does sound like a cordial debate with your good friend. But, from everything I've ever been told by those whom are at least reasonably devout anything, it's that (for example when I used to debate the very existence of God which I no longer do because I DON'T KNOW (and it's not productive.....:D)) that is the very essence of faith. Nobody KNOWS. People just believe and find peace in that belief. Maybe that's integral to achieving spiritual satisfaction.
 
Arch, this dude is representing himself as an anesthesiologist. An

ATTENDING.


I'm questioning that.

I think this person is an imposter, here with an ulterior motive.

Any way to verify his (her) Legit Score?

User is an attending anesthesiologist.
 
Jet:

The reason I brought up Membrane Theory was to demonstrate that no one really "knows" anything. Sure, you can stop at college level physics, but it goes so deep so fast that theoretical physics ends up being WTF.

So, if then UNDERLYING physics is all up in the air, I say nothing is really known. So, in this vein, people are taking today's science on "faith."

Take the next step. There is something out there.

My faith makes sense to me and feels right. I always thought there was room in the Catholic faith for other believers that didn't ever "understand" what they perceived as the real truth. I never thought it was that cut and dry.






No dude.

I don't want the 2lb pilates dumbbells.

I want

The Truth.

I have close Jewish friends that do not believe Jesus was the son of god. That's completely against my teachings; if and when I go back to mass I'll be thinking about my Jewish homies....they don't think that....yet all the people in this catholic church think that Jesus.....

I hate to have to break it down to this level

BUT

THERE EXISTS

TWO SOCIETIES


believing

2 completely different, very important, very religious

VIEWS.


Jewish homie (we've been friends since 1988) and I go back and forth....affectionately, yet conflicting in

Who's Got The RIGHT

Story.


I really don't know which one of us is right and which one is wrong when it comes to the Jesus thing.

I enjoy the fraternity-esque debates.....neither is trying to

WIN....

yet we confront each other with completely different sides of the spectrum....both of us are MDs, both of us are pretty intelligent, yet when it comes to this subject obviously


somebody's right and somebody's wrong.

I don't care whether I'm right or wrong with my affectionate banter with my Jewish buddy.

I just

WANNA KNOW THE TRUTH.

Is Jesus the son of god?

Ok.

OR,

Is god IT, the Christian faith has been misguided, Jesus is NOT the son of god?

Ok.

I'm not on either team.

I just wanna

KNOW.
 
Jet, I don't know if someone already mentioned this book yet, but check out "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. I found it helpful for a lot of questions I had.

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310209307

Apparently it's a documentary on Netflix now too:
http://www.netflix.com/Movie/The-Case-for-Christ/70074521

I was raised Catholic too, and after trying a lot of nondenominational churches on and off through the years, (mostly off) I am finding myself drawn back to the Catholic church recently. I've basically finally realized that there are disturbing issues with every denomination, and no one denomination or religion is perfect because imperfect humans are involved in them. I've realized that it's really all just more about the core simple message of relationship with God than finding a 'perfect' denomination.

Peace. I hope you find what you are seeking.
 
Jet:

The reason I brought up Membrane Theory was to demonstrate that no one really "knows" anything. Sure, you can stop at college level physics, but it goes so deep so fast that theoretical physics ends up being WTF.

So, if then UNDERLYING physics is all up in the air, I say nothing is really known. So, in this vein, people are taking today's science on "faith."

Take the next step. There is something out there.

My faith makes sense to me and feels right. I always thought there was room in the Catholic faith for other believers that didn't ever "understand" what they perceived as the real truth. I never thought it was that cut and dry.

That is a false analogy. No one has 'faith' in science. Accepting the current best explanations based on the best available evidence is not 'faith', and even if people did have faith in science, it wouldn't make your myths any more true.
 
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That is a false analogy. No one has 'faith' in science. Accepting the current best explanations based on the best available evidence is not 'faith', and even if people did have faith in science, it wouldn't make your myths any more true.

This is not really the issue. You have faith that nothing exists behind all of the laws and forces that exist in the universe. It's not so much having faith in logic...that indeed does not make sense. The real issue is whether logic was created by a supernatural being or did it come into existence by itself without a celestial creator.

You can't say that you don't have faith in the absence of God because that's a default position. Whenever an alternative theory is presented, you either choose to believe that it's true (theism) or untrue (atheism) or you decide to never make the choice (agnosticism). I anticipate that you'll bring up an example such that you don't believe in leprechauns or the Easter Bunny, but then comparing those beliefs to a belief in the Judeo-Christian God is absurd...there is more historical evidence that Jesus existed than individuals like Alexander the Great. The New Testament has almost 25,000 ancient manuscripts supporting it...there is no book in antiquity that comes remotely close to this.

According to Biblical scholar John Warwick Montgomery, "To be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the New Testament."

The professional philosopher, theologian and debater, William Lane Craig has a great article. I'll post it in the next entry.
 
The Ultimate Question of Origins: God and the Beginning of the Universe

William Lane Craig

The absolute origin of the universe, of all matter and energy, even of physical space and time themselves, in the Big Bang singularity contradicts the perennial naturalistic assumption that the universe has always existed. One after another, models designed to avert the initial cosmological singularity--the Steady State model, the Oscillating model, Vacuum Fluctuation models--have come and gone. Current quantum gravity models, such as the Hartle-Hawking model and the Vilenkin model, must appeal to the physically unintelligible and metaphysically dubious device of "imaginary time" to avoid the universe's beginning. The contingency implied by an absolute beginning ex nihilo points to a transcendent cause of the universe beyond space and time. Philosophical objections to a cause of the universe fail to carry conviction.

Source: Astrophysics and Space Science 269-270 (1999): 723-740

The Fundamental Question

From time immemorial men have turned their gaze toward the heavens and wondered. Both cosmology and philosophy trace their roots to the wonder felt by the ancient Greeks as they contemplated the cosmos. According to Aristotle, it is owing to their wonder that men both now begin and at first began to philosophize; they wondered originally at the obvious difficulties, then advanced little by little and stated difficulties about the greater matters, e.g. about the phenomena of the moon and those of the sun and the stars, and about the origin of the universe.1

The question of why the universe exists remains the ultimate mystery. Derek Parfit, a contemporary philosopher, declares that "No question is more sublime than why there is a Universe: why there is anything rather than nothing."2

This question led the great German mathematician and philosopher Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz to posit the existence of a metaphysically necessary being which carries within itself the sufficient reason for its own existence and which constitutes the sufficient reason for the existence of everything else in the world.3 Leibniz identified this being as God. Leibniz's critics, on the other hand, claimed that the space-time universe may itself be the necessary being demanded by Leibniz's argument. Thus, the Scottish sceptic David Hume queried, "Why may not the material universe be the necessarily existent Being . . . ?" Indeed, "How can anything, that exists from eternity, have a cause, since that relation implies a priority in time and a beginning of existence?"4 There is no warrant for going beyond the universe to posit a supernatural ground of its existence. As Bertrand Russell put it so succinctly in his BBC radio debate with Frederick Copleston, "The universe is just there, and that's all."5
The Origin of the Universe

This stand-off persisted unaltered until 1917, the year in which Albert Einstein made a cosmological application of his newly discovered General Theory of Relativity.6 To his chagrin, he found that GTR would not permit a static model of the universe unless he introduced into his gravitational field equations a certain "fudge factor" L in order to counterbalance the gravitational effect of matter. Einstein's universe was balanced on a razor's edge, however, and the least perturbation would cause the universe either to implode or to expand. By taking this feature of Einstein's model seriously, Alexander Friedman and Georges Lemaitre were able to formulate independently in the 1920s solutions to the field equations which predicted an expanding universe.7

The monumental significance of the Friedman-Lemaitre model lay in its historization of the universe. As one commentator has remarked, up to this time the idea of the expansion of the universe "was absolutely beyond comprehension. Throughout all of human history the universe was regarded as fixed and immutable and the idea that it might actually be changing was inconceivable."8 But if the Friedman-Lemaitre model were correct, the universe could no longer be adequately treated as a static entity existing, in effect, timelessly. Rather the universe has a history, and time will not be matter of indifference for our investigation of the cosmos. In 1929 Edwin Hubble's measurements of the red-shift in the optical spectra of light from distant galaxies,9 which was taken to indicate a universal recessional motion of the light sources in the line of sight, provided a dramatic verification of the Friedman-Lemaitre model. Incredibly, what Hubble had discovered was the isotropic expansion of the universe predicted by Friedman and Lemaitre. It marked a veritable turning point in the history of science. "Of all the great predictions that science has ever made over the centuries," exclaims John Wheeler, "was there ever one greater than this, to predict, and predict correctly, and predict against all expectation a phenomenon so fantastic as the expansion of the universe?"10
The Standard Big Bang Model

As a GTR-based theory, the Friedman-Lemaitre model does not describe the expansion of the material content of the universe into a pre-existing, empty, Newtonian space, but rather the expansion of space itself. This has the astonishing implication that as one reverses the expansion and extrapolates back in time, space-time curvature becomes progressively greater until one finally arrives at a singular state at which space-time curvature becomes infinite. This state therefore constitutes an edge or boundary to space-time itself. P. C. W. Davies comments,

An initial cosmological singularity . . . forms a past temporal extremity to the universe. We cannot continue physical reasoning, or even the concept of spacetime, through such an extremity. . . . On this view the big bang represents the creation event; the creation not only of all the matter and energy in the universe, but also of spacetime itself.11

The popular expression "Big Bang," originally a derisive term coined by Fred Hoyle to characterize the beginning of the universe predicted by the Friedman-Lemaitre model, is thus potentially misleading, since the expansion cannot be visualized from the outside (there being no "outside," just as there is no "before" with respect to the Big Bang).12

The standard Big Bang model thus describes a universe which is not eternal in the past, but which came into being a finite time ago. Moreover,--and this deserves underscoring--the origin it posits is an absolute origin ex nihilo. For not only all matter and energy, but space and time themselves come into being at the initial cosmological singularity. As Barrow and Tipler emphasize, "At this singularity, space and time came into existence; literally nothing existed before the singularity, so, if the Universe originated at such a singularity, we would truly have a creation ex nihilo."13 Thus, we may graphically represent space-time as a cone (Fig. 1).

Fig. 1: Conical Representation of Standard Model Space-Time

Fig. 1: Conical Representation of Standard Model Space-Time. Space and time begin at the initial cosmological singularity, before which literally nothing exists.

On such a model the universe originates ex nihilo in the sense that at the initial singularity it is true that There is no earlier space-time point or it is false that Something existed prior to the singularity.

Now such a conclusion is profoundly disturbing for anyone who ponders it. For the question cannot be suppressed: Why does the universe exist rather than nothing? In light of the universe's origin ex nihilo, one can no longer dismiss this question with a shrug and a slogan, "The universe is just there and that's all." For the universe is not "just there;" rather it came into being. The beginning of the universe discloses that the universe is not, as Hume thought, a necessarily existing being but is contingent in its existence. Philosophers analyzing the concept of necessary existence agree that the essential properties of any necessarily existing entity include its being eternal, uncaused, incorruptible, and indestructible14--for otherwise it would be capable of non-existence, which is self-contradictory. Thus, if the universe began to exist, its lacks at least one of the essential properties of necessary existence-eternality. Therefore, the reason for its existence cannot be immanent, but must in some mysterious way be ultra-mundane, or transcendent. Otherwise, one must say that the universe simply sprang into being uncaused out of absolutely nothing, which seems absurd. Sir Arthur Eddington, contemplating the beginning of the universe, opined that the expansion of the universe was so preposterous and incredible that "I feel almost an indignation that anyone should believe in it--except myself."15 He finally felt forced to conclude, "The beginning seems to present insuperable difficulties unless we agree to look on it as frankly supernatural."16

I find that most scientists do not reflect philosophically upon the metaphysical implications of their theories. But, in the words of one astrophysical team, "The problem of the origin [of the universe] involves a certain metaphysical aspect which may be either appealing or revolting."17
The Steady State Model

Revolted by the stark metaphysical alternatives presented us by an absolute beginning of the universe, certain theorists have been understandably eager to subvert the Standard Model and restore an eternal universe. Sir Fred Hoyle, for example, could countenance neither an uncaused nor a supernaturally caused origin of the universe. With respect to the first alternative, he wrote, "This most peculiar situation is taken by many astronomers to represent the origin of the universe. The universe is supposed to have begun at this particular time. From where? The usual answer, surely an unsatisfactory one, is: from nothing!"18 Equally unsatisfactory in Hoyle's mind was the postulation of a supernatural cause. Noting that some accept happily the universe's absolute beginning, Hoyle complained,

To many people this thought process seems highly satisfactory because a 'something' outside physics can then be introduced at t = 0. By a semantic manoeuvre, the word 'something' is then replaced by 'god,' except that the first letter becomes a capital, God, in order to warn us that we must not carry the enquiry any further.19

To Hoyle's credit, he did carry the inquiry further by helping to formulate in 1948 the first competitor to the Standard Model, namely, the Steady State Model of the universe.20 According to this theory, the universe is in a state of isotropic cosmic expansion, but as the galaxies recede, new matter is drawn into being ex nihilo in the interstices of space created by the galactic recession (Fig. 2).

Fig. 2: Steady State Model

Fig. 2: Steady State Model. As the galaxies mutually recede, new matter comes into existence to replace them. The universe thus constantly renews itself and so never began to exist.

If one extrapolates the expansion of the universe back in time, the density of the universe never increases because the matter and energy simply vanish as the galaxies mutually approach!

The Steady State theory never secured a single piece of experimental verification; its appeal was purely metaphysical.21 The discovery of progressively more radio galaxies at ever greater distances undermined the theory by showing that the universe had an evolutionary history. But the decisive refutation of the Steady State Model came with two discoveries which constituted, in addition to the galactic red-shift, the most significant evidence for the Big Bang theory: the cosmogonic nucleosynthesis of the light elements and the microwave background radiation. As a result, in the words of Ivan King, "The steady-state theory has now been laid to rest, as a result of clear-cut observations of how things have changed with time."22
Oscillating Models

The Standard Model was based on the assumptions of homogeneity and isotropy. Some cosmologists speculated that by denying homogeneity and isotropy, one might be able to craft an Oscillating Model of the universe.23 If the internal gravitational pull of the mass of the universe were able to overcome the force of its expansion, then the expansion could be reversed into a cosmic contraction, a Big Crunch. If the universe were not homogeneous and isotropic, then the collapsing universe might not coalesce at a point, but the material contents of the universe might pass each other by, so that the universe would appear to bounce back from the contraction into a new expansion phase. If this process of expansion and contraction could be repeated indefinitely, then an absolute beginning of the universe might be avoided (Fig. 3).

Fig. 3: Oscillating Model

Fig. 3: Oscillating Model. Each expansion phase is preceded and succeeded by a contraction phase, so that the universe in concertina-like fashion exists beginninglessly and endlessly.

Such a theory is extraordinarily speculative, but again there were metaphysical motivations for adopting this model.24 The prospects of the Oscillating Model were severely dimmed in 1970, however, by Penrose and Hawking's formulation of the Singularity Theorems which bear their names.25 The theorems disclosed that under very generalized conditions an initial cosmological singularity is inevitable, even for inhomogeneous and non-isotropic universes. Reflecting on the impact of this discovery, Hawking notes that the Hawking-Penrose Singularity Theorems "led to the abandonment of attempts (mainly by the Russians) to argue that there was a previous contracting phase and a non-singular bounce into expansion. Instead almost everyone now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning at the big bang."26

Despite the fact that the termini of a closed universe must be singularities and that no space-time trajectory can be extended through a singularity, the Oscillating Model exhibited a stubborn persistence. Three further strikes were lodged against it. First, there are no known physics which would cause a collapsing universe to bounce back to a new expansion. Second, the observational evidence indicates that the mean mass density of the universe is insufficient to generate enough gravitational attraction to halt and reverse the expansion.27 Third, since entropy is conserved from cycle to cycle in such a model, which has the effect of generating larger and longer oscillations with each successive cycle, the thermodynamic properties of an Oscillating Model imply the very beginning its proponents sought to avoid (Fig. 4).28

Fig. 4: Oscillating Model with Entropy Increase

Fig. 4: Oscillating Model with Entropy Increase. Due to the conservation of entropy each successive oscillation has a larger radius and longer expansion time.

Although these difficulties were well-known, proponents of the Oscillating Model tenaciously clung to it until a new alternative to the Standard Model emerged during the 1970s.29 The theory drew its life from its avoidance of an absolute beginning of the universe; but once other models became available claiming to offer the same benefit, the Oscillating Model sank under the weight of its own deficiencies.
Vacuum Fluctuation Models

Cosmologists realized that a physical description of the universe prior to the Planck time would require the introduction of quantum physics in addition to GTR. In 1973 Edward Tryon speculated whether the universe might not be a long-lived virtual particle, whose total energy is zero, born out of the primordial vacuum.30 This seemingly bizarre speculation gave rise to a new generation of cosmogonic theories which we may call Vacuum Fluctuation Models. In such models, it is hypothesized that prior to some inflationary era the Universe-as-a-whole is a primordial vacuum which exists, not in a state of expansion, but eternally in a steady state. Throughout this vacuum sub-atomic energy fluctuations constantly occur, by means of which matter is created and mini-universes are born (Fig. 5).

Fig. 5: Vacuum Fluctuation Models

Fig. 5: Vacuum Fluctuation Models. Within the vacuum of the wider Universe, fluctuations occur which grow into mini-universes. Ours is but one of these, and its relative beginning does not imply a beginning for the Universe-as-a-whole.

Our expanding universe is but one of an indefinite number of mini-universes conceived within the womb of the greater Universe-as-a-whole. Thus, the beginning of our universe does not represent an absolute beginning, but merely a change in the eternal, uncaused Universe-as-a-whole.

Vacuum Fluctuation Models did not outlive the decade of the 1980s. Not only were there theoretical problems with the production mechanisms of matter, but these models faced a deep internal incoherence.31 According to such models, it is impossible to specify precisely when and where a fluctuation will occur in the primordial vacuum which will then grow into a universe. Within any finite interval of time there is a positive probability of such a fluctuation occurring at any point in space. Thus, given infinite past time, universes will eventually be spawned at every point in the primordial vacuum, and, as they expand, they will begin to collide and coalesce with one another. Thus, given infinite past time, we should by now be observing an infinitely old universe, not a relatively young one. About the only way to avert the problem would be to postulate an expansion of the primordial vacuum itself; but then we are right back to the absolute origin implied by the Standard Model. According to Isham this problem proved to be "fairly lethal" to Vacuum Fluctuation Models; hence, these models were "jettisoned twenty years ago" and "nothing much" has been done with them since.32
Chaotic Inflationary Model

Inflation also forms the context for the next alternative to arise: the Chaotic Inflationary Model. One of the most fertile of the inflation theorists has been the Russian cosmologist Andrei Linde.33 In Linde's model inflation never ends: each inflating domain of the universe when it reaches a certain volume gives rise via inflation to another domain, and so on, ad infinitum (Fig. 6).

Fig. 6: Chaotic Inflationary Model

Fig. 6: Chaotic Inflationary Model. The wider universe produces via inflation separate domains which continue to recede from one another. Since these "bubbles" do not interact, they cannot collide and coalesce as the mini-universes postulated by Vacuum Fluctuation Models could.

Linde's model thus has an infinite future. But Linde is troubled at the prospect of an absolute beginning. He writes, "The most difficult aspect of this problem is not the existence of the singularity itself, but the question of what was before the singularity . . . . This problem lies somewhere at the boundary between physics and metaphysics."34 Linde therefore proposes that chaotic inflation is not only endless, but beginningless. Every domain in the universe is the product of inflation in another domain, so that the singularity is averted and with it as well the question of what came before (or, more accurately, what caused it).

In 1994, however, Arvind Borde and Alexander Vilenkin showed that a universe eternally inflating toward the future cannot be geodesically complete in the past, so that there must have existed at some point in the indefinite past an initial singularity. They write,

A model in which the inflationary phase has no end . . . naturally leads to this question: Can this model also be extended to the infinite past, avoiding in this way the problem of the initial singularity?

. . . this is in fact not possible in future-eternal inflationary spacetimes as long as they obey some reasonable physical conditions: such models must necessarily possess initial singularities.

. . . the fact that inflationary spacetimes are past incomplete forces one to address the question of what, if anything, came before.35

In response, Linde reluctantly concurs with the conclusion of Borde and Vilenkin: there must have been a Big Bang singularity at some point in the past.36
Quantum Gravity Models

At the close of their analysis of Linde's Chaotic Inflationary Model, Borde and Vilenkin say with respect to Linde's metaphysical question, "The most promising way to deal with this problem is probably to treat the Universe quantum mechanically and describe it by a wave function rather than by a classical spacetime."37 They thereby allude to the last class of models attempting to avoid the initial cosmological singularity which we shall consider, namely, Quantum Gravity Models. Vilenkin and, more famously, James Hartle and Stephen Hawking have proposed models of the universe which Vilenkin candidly calls exercises in "metaphysical cosmology."38 In his best-selling popularization of his theory, Hawking even reveals an explicitly theological orientation. He concedes that on the Standard Model one could legitimately identify the Big Bang singularity as the instant at which God created the universe.39 Indeed, he thinks that a number of attempts to avoid the Big Bang were probably motivated by the feeling that a beginning of time "smacks of divine intervention."40 He sees his own model as preferable to the Standard Model because there would be no edge of space-time at which one "would have to appeal to God or some new law."41

Both the Hartle-Hawking and the Vilenkin models eliminate the initial singularity by transforming the conical hyper-surface of classical space-time into a smooth, curved hyper-surface having no edge (Fig. 7).

Fig. 7: Quantum Gravity Model

Fig. 7: Quantum Gravity Model. In the Hartle-Hawking version, space-time is "rounded off" prior to the Planck time, so that although the past is finite, there is no edge or beginning point.

This is accomplished by the introduction of imaginary numbers for the time variable in Einstein's gravitational equations, which effectively eliminates the singularity. Hawking sees profound theological implications in the model:

The idea that space and time may form a closed surface without boundary . . . has profound implications for the role of God in the affairs of the universe . . . . So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end. What place, then, for a creator?42

Hawking does not deny the existence of God, but he does think his model eliminates the need for a Creator.

The key to assessing this theological claim is the physical interpretation of Quantum Gravity Models. By positing a finite (imaginary) time on a closed surface prior the Planck time rather than an infinite time on an open surface, such models actually seem to support, rather than undercut, the idea that time had a beginning. Such theories, if successful, enable us to model the origin of the universe without an initial singularity involving infinite density, temperature, pressure, and so on. As Barrow points out, "This type of quantum universe has not always existed; it comes into being just as the classical cosmologies could, but it does not start at a Big Bang where physical quantities are infinite . . . ."43 Barrow points out that such models are "often described as giving a picture of 'creation out of nothing,'" the only caveat being that in this case "there is no definite . . . point of creation."44 Hartle-Hawking themselves construe their model as giving "the amplitude for the Universe to appear from nothing," and Hawking has asserted that according to the model the universe "would quite literally be created out of nothing: not just out of the vacuum, but out of absolutely nothing at all, because there is nothing outside the universe."45 Taken at face value, these statements entail the beginning of the universe. Hawking's claim quoted above concerning the theological implications of his model must therefore be understood to mean that on such models there are no beginning or ending points, and, hence, no need for a Creator. But having a beginning does not entail having a beginning point. Even in the Standard Model, theorists sometimes "cut out" the initial singular point without thinking that therefore space-time no longer begins to exist and that the problem of the origin of the universe is thereby resolved. Time begins to exist just in case for any finite temporal interval, there are only a finite number of equal temporal intervals earlier than it. That condition is fulfilled for Quantum Gravity Models as well as for the Standard Model. Nor should we think that by giving the amplitude for the universe to appear from nothing quantum cosmologists have eliminated the need for a Creator, for that probability is conditional upon several choices which only the Creator could make (such as selecting the wave function of the universe) and is dubiously applied to absolute nothingness.46

Perhaps it will be said that such an interpretation of Quantum Gravity Models fails to take seriously the notion of "imaginary time." Introducing imaginary numbers for the time variable in Einstein's equation has the peculiar effect of making the time dimension indistinguishable from space. But in that case, the imaginary time regime prior to the Planck time is not a space-time at all, but a Euclidean four-dimensional space. Construed realistically, such a four-space would be evacuated of all temporal becoming and would simply exist timelessly. Thus, Hawking describes it as "completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would be neither created nor destroyed. It would just BE."47

The question which arises for this construal of the model is whether such an interpretation is meant to be taken realistically or instrumentally. On this score, there can be little doubt that the use of imaginary quantities for time is a mere mathematical device without ontological significance. Barrow observes, "physicists have often carried out this 'change time into space' procedure as a useful trick for doing certain problems in ordinary quantum mechanics, although they did not imagine that time was really like space. At the end of the calculation, they just swop [sic] back into the usual interpretation of there being one dimension of time and three . . . dimensions of . . . space."48 In his model, Hawking simply declines to re-convert to real numbers. If we do, then the singularity re-appears. Hawking admits, "Only if we could picture the universe in terms of imaginary time would there be no singularities . . . . When one goes back to the real time in which we live, however, there will still appear to be singularities."49 Hawking's model is thus a way of re-describing a universe with a singular beginning point in such a way that that singularity is transformed away; but such a re-description is not realist in character.

Hawking has recently stated explicitly that he interprets the Hartle-Hawking model non-realistically. He confesses, "I'm a positivist . . . I don't demand that a theory correspond to reality because I don't know what it is."50 Still more extreme, "I take the positivist viewpoint that a physical theory is just a mathematical model and that it is meaningless to ask whether it corresponds to reality."51 In assessing the worth of a theory, "All I'm concerned with is that the theory should predict the results of measurements."52 The clearest example of Hawking's instrumentalism is his analysis of particle pair creation in terms of an electron quantum tunneling in Euclidean space (with time being imaginary) and an electron/positron pair accelerating away from each other in Minkowski space-time.53 This analysis is directly analogous to the Hartle-Hawking cosmological model; and yet no one would construe particle pair creation as literally the result of an electron's transitioning out of a timelessly existing four-space into our classical space-time. It is just an alternative description employing imaginary numbers rather than real numbers.

Significantly, the use of imaginary quantities for time is an inherent feature of all Quantum Gravity Models.54 This precludes their being construed realistically as accounts of the origin of the space-time universe in a timelessly existing four-space. Rather they are ways of modeling the real beginning of the universe ex nihilo in such a way as to not involve a singularity. What brought the universe into being remains unexplained on such accounts.
Summary

With each successive failure of alternative cosmogonic theories, the Standard Model has been corroborated. It can be confidently said that no cosmogonic model has been as repeatedly verified in its predictions and as corroborated by attempts at its falsification, or as concordant with empirical discoveries and as philosophically coherent, as the Standard Big Bang Model. This does not prove that it is correct, but it does show that it is the best explanation of the evidence which we have and therefore merits our provisional acceptance.
Beyond the Big Bang

The discovery that the universe is not eternal in the past but had a beginning has profound metaphysical implications. For it implies that the universe is not necessary in its existence but rather has its ground in a transcendent, metaphysically necessary being. The only way of avoiding this conclusion would be to deny Leibniz's conviction that anything that exists must have a reason for its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or else in an external ground. Reflecting upon the current situation, P. C. W. Davies muses,

'What caused the big bang?' . . . One might consider some supernatural force, some agency beyond space and time as being responsible for the big bang, or one might prefer to regard the big bang as an event without a cause. It seems to me that we don't have too much choice. Either . . . something outside of the physical world . . . or . . . an event without a cause.55
 
The problem with saying that the Big Bang is an event without a cause is that it entails that the universe came into being uncaused out of nothing, which seems metaphysically absurd. Philosopher of science Bernulf Kanitscheider remonstrates, "If taken seriously, the initial singularity is in head-on collision with the most successful ontological commitment that was a guiding line of research since Epicurus and Lucretius," namely, out of nothing nothing comes, which Kanitscheider calls "a metaphysical hypothesis which has proved so fruitful in every corner of science that we are surely well-advised to try as hard as we can to eschew processes of absolute origin."56 But if the universe began to exist, we are therefore driven to the second alternative: a supernatural agency beyond space and time.
The Supernaturalist Alternative

If we go the route of postulating some causal agency beyond space and time as being responsible for the origin of the universe, then conceptual analysis enables us to recover a number of striking properties which must be possessed by such an ultra-mundane being. For as the cause of space and time, this entity must transcend space and time and therefore exist atemporally and non-spatially, at least sans the universe. This transcendent cause must therefore be changeless and immaterial, since timelessness entails changelessness, and changelessness implies immateriality. Such a cause must be beginningless and uncaused, at least in the sense of lacking any antecedent causal conditions. Ockham's Razor will shave away further causes, since we should not multiply causes beyond necessity. This entity must be unimaginably powerful, since it created the universe without any material cause.

Finally, and most remarkably, such a transcendent cause is plausibly to be taken to be personal. As Oxford philosopher Richard Swinburne points out, there are two types of causal explanation: scientific explanations in terms of laws and initial conditions and personal explanations in terms of agents and their volitions.57 A first state of the universe cannot have a scientific explanation, since there is nothing before it, and therefore it can be accounted for only in terms of a personal explanation. Moreover, the personhood of the cause of the universe is implied by its timelessness and immateriality, since the only entities we know of which can possess such properties are either minds or abstract objects, and abstract objects do not stand in causal relations. Therefore, the transcendent cause of the origin of the universe must be of the order of mind. This same conclusion is also implied by the fact that we have in this case the origin of a temporal effect from a timeless cause. If the cause of the origin of the universe were an impersonal set of necessary and sufficient conditions, it would be impossible for the cause to exist without its effect. For if the necessary and sufficient conditions of the effect are timelessly given, then their effect must be given as well. The only way for the cause to be timeless and changeless but for its effect to originate de novo a finite time ago is for the cause to be a personal agent who freely chooses to bring about an effect without antecedent determining conditions. Thus, we are brought, not merely to a transcendent cause of the universe, but to its personal creator.

Naturalistic Objections
Many persons will, of course, be reluctant to take on board such metaphysical baggage. But what objection is there to the postulate of a personal, causal agency beyond the universe? Some critiques may be easily dismissed. For example, metaphysician John Post obviously begs the question when he claims that there cannot be a cause of the origin of the universe, since "by definition the universe contains everything there is or ever was or will be."58 Again it is an obvious non-sequitur when he infers that because "the singularity cannot be caused by some earlier natural event or process," therefore "contemporary physical cosmology cannot be cited in support of the idea of a divine cause or creator of the universe."59

On the other hand, Smith realizes that the metaphysician must take seriously the "more difficult question" of "whether or not the singularity or the Big Bang probably is an effect of a supernatural cause."60 What problem, then, is there with a supernaturalist perspective? Adolf Grünbaum has argued vigorously against what he styles "the New Creation Argument" for a supernatural cause of the origin of the universe.61 His basic Ansatz is based on the assumption that causal priority implies temporal priority. Since there were no instants of time prior to the Big Bang, it follows that the Big Bang cannot have a cause.62

It seems to me that there are a number of options for dealing with this objection, one of which is to hold that the Creator of the universe is causally, but not temporally, prior to the Big Bang singularity, such that His act of causing the universe to begin to exist is simultaneous, or co-incident, with its beginning to exist. Grünbaum provides no justification for his assumption that causal priority implies temporal priority. Discussions of causal directionality deal routinely with cases in which cause and effect are simultaneous. One could hold that the Creator sans the universe exists changelessly and, hence, timelessly and at the Big Bang singularity created the universe along with time and space. For the Creator sans the universe, there simply is no time because there are no events of any sort; time begins with the first event, at the moment of creation.

The time of the first event would be not only the first time at which the universe exists, but also, technically, the first time at which the Creator exists, since sans the universe the Creator is timeless.63 The act of creation is thus simultaneous with the origination of the universe.

The scenario I have sketched of the Creator's status sans the universe requires that the Creator be both a timeless and personal agent. But some philosophers have argued that such a notion is self-contradictory.64 For it is a necessary condition of personhood that an individual be capable of remembering, anticipating, reflecting, deliberating, deciding, and so forth. But these are inherently temporal activities. Therefore, there can be no atemporal persons.

The weakness in this reasoning is that it conflates common properties of persons with essential properties of persons. The sorts of activities delineated above are certainly common properties of temporal persons. But that does not imply that such properties are essential to personhood. Arguably, what is necessary and sufficient for personhood is self-consciousness and free volition, and these are not inherently temporal notions. In his study of divine timelessness, John Yates writes,

The classical theist may immediately grant that concepts such as reflection, memory, and anticipation could not apply to a timeless being (nor to any omniscient being), but this is not to admit that the key concepts of consciousness and knowledge are inapplicable to such a deity . . . . there does not seem to be any essential temporal element in words like . . . 'understand,' to 'be aware,' to 'know,' and so on . . . . an atemporal deity could possess maximal understanding, awareness, and knowledge in a single, all-embracing vision of himself and the sum of reality.65

Similarly, the Creator could possess a free, changeless intention of the will to create a universe with a temporal beginning. Thus, it seems that neither self-consciousness nor free volition entail temporality. But since these are plausibly sufficient for personhood, there is no incoherence in the notion of a timeless, personal Creator of the universe.

All of the above objections have been offered as attempted justification of the apparently incredible position that the universe sprang into being uncaused out of nothing. But I, for one, find the premisses of those objections far less perspicuous than the proposition that whatever begins to exist has a cause. It is far more plausible to deny one of those premisses than to affirm what Hume called the "absurd Proposition" that something might arise without a cause,66 that the universe, in this case, should pop into existence uncaused out of nothing.
Conclusion

We can summarize our argument as follows:

1. Whatever exists has a reason for its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external ground.

2. Whatever begins to exist is not necessary in its existence.

3. If the universe has an external ground of its existence, then there exists a Personal Creator of the universe, who, sans the universe, is timeless, spaceless, beginningless, changeless, necessary, uncaused, and enormously powerful.

4. The universe began to exist.

From (2) and (4) it follows that

5. Therefore, the universe is not necessary in its existence.

From (1) and (5) it follows further that

6. Therefore, the universe has an external ground of its existence.

From (3) and (6) it we can conclude that

7. Therefore, there exists a Personal Creator of the universe, who, sans the universe, is timeless, spaceless, beginningless, changeless, necessary, uncaused, and enormously powerful.

And this, as Thomas Aquinas laconically remarked,67 is what everybody means by God.
 
Nice read.:thumbup:

Red shift quantification is revolutionary in studying the cosmos.

I am facinated by this arena of science (and religion). Great thinking material. :rolleyes: :D

Just puts things into perspective...

for both those who believe in GOD...

and those that don't.

:)
 
Nice read.:thumbup:

Red shift quantification is revolutionary in studying the cosmos.

I am facinated by this arena of science (and religion). Great thinking material. :rolleyes: :D

Just puts things into perspective...

for both those who believe in GOD...

and those that don't.

:)

Thanks, I'm glad that you found it interesting!
 
This is not really the issue. You have faith that nothing exists behind all of the laws and forces that exist in the universe. It's not so much having faith in logic...that indeed does not make sense. The real issue is whether logic was created by a supernatural being or did it come into existence by itself without a celestial creator.

You can't say that you don't have faith in the absence of God because that's a default position. Whenever an alternative theory is presented, you either choose to believe that it's true (theism) or untrue (atheism) or you decide to never make the choice (agnosticism). I anticipate that you'll bring up an example such that you don't believe in leprechauns or the Easter Bunny, but then comparing those beliefs to a belief in the Judeo-Christian God is absurd...there is more historical evidence that Jesus existed than individuals like Alexander the Great. The New Testament has almost 25,000 ancient manuscripts supporting it...there is no book in antiquity that comes remotely close to this.

According to Biblical scholar John Warwick Montgomery, "To be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the New Testament."

The professional philosopher, theologian and debater, William Lane Craig has a great article. I'll post it in the next entry.

Actually, I don't have faith that nothing exists behind all the laws and forces. I just don't have any evidence that would lead to the conclusion that there definately IS anything behind them. No one can provide proof for or against it. Claims of knowledge about God are not 'theories' in the scientific sense of the word, they are just stories. Maybe there's a God who created all matter, energy, and the laws of physics, but even if there is, that discussion has nothing to do with whether or not any religion is even remotely true.

If religion was just the guess that there might be a God because the world exists, I wouldn't bother arguing against it. It isn't really reasonable, but it's not that much crazier to believe that God exists and made the world than to believe it just exists independent of God. What gets me is that almost everyone thinks that God communicates with people and sent messages with lots of details about what he wants etc. It's just much more reasonable to believe that people claiming to be prophets were either insane, manipulative and power hungry, or smoking something. I know the only people I've ever come across who claim that God talks to them were in the psych wards.

It a huge leap to go from Jesus existed to Jesus was born of a virgin, performed various miracles, and was resurrected etc. The bible could at best be called a work of historical fiction, sure there are things that happened in there, but mostly it has made up stories overlying the historical parts. Finding evidence in support of the historical parts doesn't mean the impossible parts are also true.

Most religions are dead. No one believes in them anymore. There is no clear difference between any modern religion and the hundreds of dead ones.
 
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Actually, I don't have faith that nothing exists behind all the laws and forces. I just don't have any evidence that would lead to the conclusion that there definately IS anything behind them. No one can provide proof for or against it. Claims of knowledge about God are not 'theories' in the scientific sense of the word, they are just stories. Maybe there's a God who created all matter, energy, and the laws of physics, but even if there is, that discussion has nothing to do with whether or not any religion is even remotely true.

If religion was just the guess that there might be a God because the world exists, I wouldn't bother arguing against it. It isn't really reasonable, but it's not that much crazier to believe that God exists and made the world than to believe it just exists independent of God. What gets me is that almost everyone thinks that God communicates with people and sent messages with lots of details about what he wants etc. It's just much more reasonable to belief that people claiming to be prophets were either insane, manipulative and power hungry, or smoking something. I know the only people I've ever come across who claim that God talks to them were in the psych wards.

It a huge leap to go from Jesus existed to Jesus was born of a virgin, performed various miracles, and was resurrected etc. The bible could at best be called a work of historical fiction, sure there are things that happened in there, but mostly it has made up stories overlying the historical parts. Finding evidence in support of the historical parts doesn't mean the impossible parts are also true.

Most religions are dead. No one believes in them anymore. There is no clear difference between any modern religion and the hundreds of dead ones.

Yes, my point is that in order for you to believe the opposite of another person in a binary decision, you have to believe/have faith that the opposite view is false. You have to have faith in God's non-existence to be an atheist. Sounds obvious, but the atheist starts with the unfair presupposition that beliefs are shaped only in a unidirectional manner: the burden of proof lies only on the theist. This is not reasonable because there is some evidence that God possibly exists. I bridge the possible to definite existence gap with faith.

Even if we start with the null hypothesis that God does not exist, we do not have sufficient evidence to conclude that he does not exist. His non-existence remains a hypothesis. If it was possible to convincingly disprove God's non-existence, then you would not require faith to be an atheist, as you would elevate the claim to a valid conclusion. Sure, you can remain in a state of indecision, but you're not believing in God's non-existence absolutely, you're embracing agnosticism.

Once you believe that an infinitely intelligent and powerful supernatural creator exists, it's not a stretch to have faith in the virgin birth, Him relaying messages to you, and the maintenance of the integrity of the truthfulness of the core of the Bible's principles and tenants over thousands of years.

Yes, there are mentally ill people that claim to be Jesus or hear the Son of God tell them to do absurd things. But this does not mean that every person claiming to hear something from God is wrong. It is quite possible for some peoples' claims to be legitimate. That naturally leads to the question, how does one know which claim is false or true? The Bible is an excellent source of validity for the Christian...and even the non-Christian. A claim to "kill a person's baby" can obviously be discarded...this is inconsistent with the teachings of the Bible. A claim to "need donations to make millions of dollars" is likely selfish and contradicting the Bible as well. It takes a good deal of introspection to determine what components of believing God's message to you are likely from Him vs. your self-centered motives/ambitions. Even though the non-Christian doesn't believe in the validity of the Bible, (s)he can still identify what's internally self-contradictory for a person's claims.
 
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I proudly move into 2nd place for longest posts in SDN Anesthesia history!

D712
 
Yes, my point is that in order for you to believe the opposite of another person in a binary decision, you have to believe/have faith that the opposite view is false. You have to have faith in God's non-existence to be an atheist. Sounds obvious, but the atheist starts with the unfair presupposition that beliefs are shaped only in a unidirectional manner: the burden of proof lies only on the theist. This is not reasonable because there is some evidence that God possibly exists. I bridge the possible to definite existence gap with faith.

Even if we start with the null hypothesis that God does not exist, we do not have sufficient evidence to conclude that he does not exist. His non-existence remains a hypothesis. If it was possible to convincingly disprove God's non-existence, then you would not require faith to be an atheist, as you would elevate the claim to a valid conclusion. Sure, you can remain in a state of indecision, but you're not believing in God's non-existence absolutely, you're embracing agnosticism.

Once you believe that an infinitely intelligent and powerful supernatural creator exists, it's not a stretch to have faith in the virgin birth, Him relaying messages to you, and the maintenance of the integrity of the truthfulness of the core of the Bible's principles and tenants over thousands of years.

Yes, there are mentally ill people that claim to be Jesus or hear the Son of God tell them to do absurd things. But this does not mean that every person claiming to hear something from God is wrong. It is quite possible for some peoples' claims to be legitimate. That naturally leads to the question, how does one know which claim is false or true? The Bible is an excellent source of validity for the Christian...and even the non-Christian. A claim to "kill a person's baby" can obviously be discarded...this is inconsistent with the teachings of the Bible. A claim to "need donations to make millions of dollars" is likely selfish and contradicting the Bible as well. It takes a good deal of introspection to determine what components of believing God's message to you are likely from Him vs. your self-centered motives/ambitions. Even though the non-Christian doesn't believe in the validity of the Bible, (s)he can still identify what's internally self-contradictory for a person's claims.

I've been trying to come up with the words to explain to you that lack of belief isn't 'faith'. Someone did it for me below.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyths/a/faith.htm

Often theists will try to place atheism and theism on the same plane by arguing that while theists cannot prove that god exists, atheists also cannot prove that god does not exist. This is used as a basis for arguing that there is no objective means for determining which is preferable because neither has a logical or empirical advantage over the other. Thus, the only reason for going with one or the other is faith and then, presumably, the theist will argue that their faith is somehow better than the atheist’s faith.

This claim relies upon the erroneous assumption that all propositions are created equal and, because some cannot be conclusively proven, then therefore none can be conclusively disproven. So, it is argued, the proposition “God exists” cannot be disproven.
But not all propositions are created equal. It is true that some cannot be disproven — for example, the claim “a black swan exists” cannot be disproven. To do so would require examining every spot in the universe to make sure that such a swan did not exist, and that simply isn’t possible.
Other propositions, however, can be disproven — and conclusively. There are two ways to do this. The first is to see if the proposition leads to a logical contradiction; if so, then the proposition must be false. Examples of this would be “a married bachelor exists” or “a square circle exists.” Both of these propositions entail logical contradictions — pointing this out is the same as disproving them.
If someone claims the existence of a god, the existence of which entails logical contradictions, then that god can be disproven the same way. Many atheological arguments do exactly that — for example they argue that an omnipotent and omniscient god cannot exist because those qualities lead to logical contradictions.
The second way to disprove a proposition is a bit more complicated. Consider the following two propositions:
  • 1. Our solar system has a tenth planet.
    2. Our solar system has a tenth planet with a mass of X and an orbit of Y.
Both propositions can be proven, but there is a difference when it comes to disproving them. The first could be disproven if someone were to examine all of the space between the sun and the outer limits of our solar system and found no new planets — but such a process is beyond our technology. So, for all practical purposes, it is not disprovable.
The second proposition, however, is disprovable with current technology. Knowing the specific information of mass and orbit, we can devise tests to determine if such an object exists — in other words, the claim is testable. If the tests repeatedly fail, then we can reasonably conclude that the object does not exist. For all intents and purposes, the proposition it disproven. This would not mean that no tenth planet exists. Instead, it means that this particular tenth planet, with this mass and this orbit, does not exist.
Similarly, when a god is defined adequately, it may be possible to construct empirical or logical tests to see if it exists. We can look, for example, at the expected effects which such a god might have on nature or humanity. If we fail to find those effects, then a god with that set of characteristics does not exist. Some other god with some other set of characteristics may exist, but this one has been disproven.
One example of this would be the Argument from Evil, an atheological argument which proposes to prove that an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent god cannot exist alongside a world like ours which has so much evil in it. If successful, such an argument would not disprove the existence of some other god; it would instead merely disprove the existence of any gods with a particular set of characteristics.
Obviously disproving a god requires an adequate description of what it is and what characteristics it has in order to determine either if there is a logical contradiction or if any testable implications hold true. Without a substantive explanation of just what this god is, how can there be a substantive claim that this god is? In order to reasonably claim that this god matters, the believer must have substantive information regarding its nature and characteristics; otherwise, there is no reason for anyone to care. Claiming that atheists “cannot prove that God does not exist” often relies upon the misunderstanding that atheists claim “God does not exist” and should prove this. In reality, atheists merely fail to accept the theists' claim “God exists” and, hence, the initial burden of proof lies with the believer. If the believer is unable to provide good reason to accept the existence of their god, it is unreasonable to expect the atheist to construct a disproof of it — or even care much about the claim in the first place.
 
Yes, my point is that in order for you to believe the opposite of another person in a binary decision, you have to believe/have faith that the opposite view is false. You have to have faith in God's non-existence to be an atheist. Sounds obvious, but the atheist starts with the unfair presupposition that beliefs are shaped only in a unidirectional manner: the burden of proof lies only on the theist. This is not reasonable because there is some evidence that God possibly exists. I bridge the possible to definite existence gap with faith.

Even if we start with the null hypothesis that God does not exist, we do not have sufficient evidence to conclude that he does not exist. His non-existence remains a hypothesis. If it was possible to convincingly disprove God's non-existence, then you would not require faith to be an atheist, as you would elevate the claim to a valid conclusion. Sure, you can remain in a state of indecision, but you're not believing in God's non-existence absolutely, you're embracing agnosticism.

Once you believe that an infinitely intelligent and powerful supernatural creator exists, it's not a stretch to have faith in the virgin birth, Him relaying messages to you, and the maintenance of the integrity of the truthfulness of the core of the Bible's principles and tenants over thousands of years.

Yes, there are mentally ill people that claim to be Jesus or hear the Son of God tell them to do absurd things. But this does not mean that every person claiming to hear something from God is wrong. It is quite possible for some peoples' claims to be legitimate. That naturally leads to the question, how does one know which claim is false or true? The Bible is an excellent source of validity for the Christian...and even the non-Christian. A claim to "kill a person's baby" can obviously be discarded...this is inconsistent with the teachings of the Bible. A claim to "need donations to make millions of dollars" is likely selfish and contradicting the Bible as well. It takes a good deal of introspection to determine what components of believing God's message to you are likely from Him vs. your self-centered motives/ambitions. Even though the non-Christian doesn't believe in the validity of the Bible, (s)he can still identify what's internally self-contradictory for a person's claims.

You haven't explained why you say the bible is an excellent source of validity or how you have determined that it's impossible claims are true or why in the world you would believe any of it is inspired by God. Even if you do believe in an all powerful God who would would be capable of miracles, that still wouldn't make it reasonable to believe every impossible claim out there. You wouldn't believe any impossible claim from the present time, unless you're one of those who sees Mary in a tortilla or whatever. So why have such a low standard of evidence for things that were written by ignorant people long ago? Why belief in something impossible that was written in the bible when you wouldn't believe the same claims written in the Wall Street Journal without some serious, serious proof.

There have been countless religions that you don't believe in, even though none of them make claims beyond the capabilities of an omnipotent God. So why do you believe in Jesus and not Zeus, etc. etc.?
 
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No dude.

I don't want the 2lb pilates dumbbells.

I want

The Truth.

I have close Jewish friends that do not believe Jesus was the son of god. That's completely against my teachings; if and when I go back to mass I'll be thinking about my Jewish homies....they don't think that....yet all the people in this catholic church think that Jesus.....

I hate to have to break it down to this level

BUT

THERE EXISTS

TWO SOCIETIES


believing

2 completely different, very important, very religious

VIEWS.


Jewish homie (we've been friends since 1988) and I go back and forth....affectionately, yet conflicting in

Who's Got The RIGHT

Story.


I really don't know which one of us is right and which one is wrong when it comes to the Jesus thing.

I enjoy the fraternity-esque debates.....neither is trying to

WIN....

yet we confront each other with completely different sides of the spectrum....both of us are MDs, both of us are pretty intelligent, yet when it comes to this subject obviously


somebody's right and somebody's wrong.

I don't care whether I'm right or wrong with my affectionate banter with my Jewish buddy.

I just

WANNA KNOW THE TRUTH.

Jet,

It does seem intuitive to our existence that "somebody's right and somebody's wrong". I think it is rather intuitive, too that for every truth in the world, there are innumerable counterfeits--making truth the hard thing. Or, "the narrow road leading to the narrow gate" as one well-known Jewish man (who made claim to be God) put it. I would naturally expect that the existence of a true God would result in innumerable religions in the world, for the same reason. The shams of the world don't speak to there being no ultimate truth but that there is one--just as fake dollar bills and coins speak to the fact that there is a genuine/original from which they derived. Similarly, seeing the innumerable religious views in the world does not discourage me from thinking that there is ultimate truth, rather spurs me on to find what the ultimate truth is.

I am in awe of Jesus of Nazareth. Why? Well, he's there historically and in every way that I have come to know, fulfilled what was said that he would fulfill--hundreds and thousands of years before he came. Why your Jewish friends do not see this remains unknown to me because the prophesies are throughout the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms. Israel was and continues to be God's originally chosen people (you see their preservation as a people body throughout history--unlike any other and will continue to, because they are) but it is through their rejection of God's provision in his Son that his grace was extended to those outside of Israel. Their rejection is our (non-Jewish) blessing--for now anyway.

Finally, the reason I take Jesus to be particularly peculiar is that here is one who sees the mess that my life often is and says, "come". "Come all you who are weary and heavy-laden...I will give you rest," he said. Religions of men are dead because they have their origin in man, which is as Solomon says of the grass of the field--here one day and withered/gone/forgotten the next. These religions ask me to do and perform and be something on my own in order to please God or find a state of peace/meaning. This is not good news--this is burden. This is like trying to live up to the expectations of a father that you can never please. Good news (gospel) has to be better than that. It is. Good news for Jesus was that 'I have come to do the work, trust me and though you are broken/messed up people--I've got you.' Thus he says on the cross as he breaths his last, "It is finished." There is nothing more for you to do. It really is finished. So it is that the Scriptures say, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Romans 10:11
 
Jet,

It does seem intuitive to our existence that "somebody's right and somebody's wrong". I think it is rather intuitive, too that for every truth in the world, there are innumerable counterfeits--making truth the hard thing. Or, "the narrow road leading to the narrow gate" as one well-known Jewish man (who made claim to be God) put it. I would naturally expect that the existence of a true God would result in innumerable religions in the world, for the same reason. The shams of the world don't speak to there being no ultimate truth but that there is one--just as fake dollar bills and coins speak to the fact that there is a genuine/original from which they derived. Similarly, seeing the innumerable religious views in the world does not discourage me from thinking that there is ultimate truth, rather spurs me on to find what the ultimate truth is.

I am in awe of Jesus of Nazareth. Why? Well, he's there historically and in every way that I have come to know, fulfilled what was said that he would fulfill--hundreds and thousands of years before he came. Why your Jewish friends do not see this remains unknown to me because the prophesies are throughout the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms. Israel was and continues to be God's originally chosen people (you see their preservation as a people body throughout history--unlike any other and will continue to, because they are) but it is through their rejection of God's provision in his Son that his grace was extended to those outside of Israel. Their rejection is our (non-Jewish) blessing--for now anyway.

Finally, the reason I take Jesus to be particularly peculiar is that here is one who sees the mess that my life often is and says, "come". "Come all you who are weary and heavy-laden...I will give you rest," he said. Religions of men are dead because they have their origin in man, which is as Solomon says of the grass of the field--here one day and withered/gone/forgotten the next. These religions ask me to do and perform and be something on my own in order to please God or find a state of peace/meaning. This is not good news--this is burden. This is like trying to live up to the expectations of a father that you can never please. Good news (gospel) has to be better than that. It is. Good news for Jesus was that 'I have come to do the work, trust me and though you are broken/messed up people--I've got you.' Thus he says on the cross as he breaths his last, "It is finished." There is nothing more for you to do. It really is finished. So it is that the Scriptures say, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Romans 10:11

:laugh: So reliable...

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he said this, he breathed his last. (Luke 23:46)
When he received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:30)
 
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:laugh: So reliable...

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he said this, he breathed his last. (Luke 23:46)
When he received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:30)

The Gospels are eyewitness accounts written by different people. Just because two people saw or in this case heard different things doesn't mean that either are incorrect--only that these were the last things that each of them heard Jesus said. Four eyewitnesses on 4 different street corners witnessing a car accident at an intersection will all have different perspectives which are equally valid, even though they differ. If the accounts were fake or 'put on', I think you would be much more likely to find that the accounts were all identical. In reality, no two (or in the case of the Gospels, four) will ever have the same perspective on any event. If these are, as I've said, eyewitness accounts...they should be necessarily different.

It is not hard to piece together verses from the different Gospels to make sense of it...but I suppose if you look at two verses randomly and disregard context and everything else you can illegitimize a lot of history...even that of our own country, for example. A synoptic of the crucifixion account might go something like:

It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah." Later... Jesus said, "I am thirsty." A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips and offered it to Jesus to drink. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." [referring to the fulfillment of prophecy] The rest said [implying Jesus was not yet dead],
"Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him. And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" he breathed his last and He gave up his spirit. (Compiled from the perspectives of Matthew, Luke and John)


Apparent contradictions are often not real contradictions, rather misunderstanding of context. Have you ever been misunderstood before? What makes you think that you cannot misunderstand?
 
The Gospels are eyewitness accounts written by different people. Just because two people saw or in this case heard different things doesn't mean that either are incorrect--only that these were the last things that each of them heard Jesus said...

If the accounts were fake or 'put on', I think you would be much more likely to find that the accounts were all identical. In reality, no two (or in the case of the Gospels, four) will ever have the same perspective on any event. If these are, as I've said, eyewitness accounts...they should be necessarily different.


Of course that viewpoint, which I believe is the correct one, calls into question the whole infallibility/ inspiration idea.

- pod
 
Of course that viewpoint, which I believe is the correct one, calls into question the whole infallibility/ inspiration idea.

- pod

Different people having different perspectives on a given event does not invalidate them--on this we agree.

If I begin with the understanding that inspiration is an action whereby God actively causes man to (passively) write things--then yes, I would see the differing perspectives of the Gospels to be troublesome. As it is, I do not see inspiration in the Scriptures this way...as a passive process for the various writers. I'm not saying that this sort didn't happen but more commonly I see different men simply testifying to what they've seen. I see Moses writing the Law from having been with God...I see John giving witness to what he saw being taken into heaven in a vision...I see the apostles speaking what they learned from being with Jesus and on and on. Inspiration, then, as far as I can see is not necessarily this idea of God pushing man's hand, rather, opening his mind/will to write something that he would not have thought to write out on his own.

I do not want to oversimplify by speaking in generalities but this is what I have observed in reading the Bible and it often seems to hold true when you read its varied books.
 
Of course that viewpoint, which I believe is the correct one, calls into question the whole infallibility/ inspiration idea.

- pod

The different perspectives argument is reasonable in some cases of apparent contradiction, but not all. I only brought up that contradiction because it was quoted before my post.

Is this difference a matter of perspective of different eye witnesses?
So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. (Matthew 27:5)
With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out... (Acts 1:18)

Can you confuse God and Satan based on where you stand?
Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah." (2 Samuel 24:1)
Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. (1 Chronicles 21:1)

There are lots and lots of contradictions in the bible. So why would you think it was inspired and infallable?
 
1. Whatever exists has a reason for its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external ground.

2. Whatever begins to exist is not necessary in its existence.

3. If the universe has an external ground of its existence, then there exists a Personal Creator of the universe, who, sans the universe, is timeless, spaceless, beginningless, changeless, necessary, uncaused, and enormously powerful.

4. The universe began to exist.

From (2) and (4) it follows that

5. Therefore, the universe is not necessary in its existence.

From (1) and (5) it follows further that

6. Therefore, the universe has an external ground of its existence.

From (3) and (6) it we can conclude that

7. Therefore, there exists a Personal Creator of the universe, who, sans the universe, is timeless, spaceless, beginningless, changeless, necessary, uncaused, and enormously powerful.

That convoluted line of logic fails with the groundless assertion in the first eight words of the first point.


That guy expended an awful lot of words to convince himself that the universe can't exist without a creator, but a creator can exist without a creator.
 
That convoluted line of logic fails with the groundless assertion in the first eight words of the first point.


That guy expended an awful lot of words to convince himself that the universe can't exist without a creator, but a creator can exist without a creator.

You can't dismiss the claim because of the first 8 words...you have to read the next 13 to understand how he's defining reason in the first 8.
 
The different perspectives argument is reasonable in some cases of apparent contradiction, but not all. I only brought up that contradiction because it was quoted before my post.

Is this difference a matter of perspective of different eye witnesses?
So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. (Matthew 27:5)
With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out... (Acts 1:18)

Can you confuse God and Satan based on where you stand?
Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah." (2 Samuel 24:1)
Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. (1 Chronicles 21:1)

There are lots and lots of contradictions in the bible. So why would you think it was inspired and infallable?

When you read the Holly Scriptures you have to read it with the Holly Spirit in your heart. The way that you interpret this apparent contradiction tells me that you just try to find cracks in the Holly Scripture - in order to justify your disbelief. Let me tell my friend that this is a good beginning. Just being interested shows that you are on a good path.
Going back to "the contradiction" -
here is an explanation for you - http://www.tektonics.org/gk/judasdeath.html
Judas is in each of us. We sell Christ every day...We fell BUT we rise again. We cannot rise though without HIM.
2win
 
:laugh: So reliable...

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he said this, he breathed his last. (Luke 23:46)
When he received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:30)


Gypsy - what is so hilarious here? Really - I don't get it.
Please tell us why are you so angry and against our Lord?
You know that He loves you and ready to help you.
You just have to confess your sins and ask for help.
2win
 
Human logic and reason are very limited because of our limited understanding of the universe. I would make very few definitive claims based solely on them.

The history of how the Bible came together is quite fascinating. Why were certain books accepted and others rejected? When were the books written? How many hundreds of years later were they combined into the "Bible" format? How were they written? Histories? Eyewitness? Interviews? Inspiration? Why have changes occurred? How would a prophet express in written form what he learned through revelation?

I do not profess an infallibility in the Bible.
 
The different perspectives argument is reasonable in some cases of apparent contradiction, but not all. I only brought up that contradiction because it was quoted before my post.

Is this difference a matter of perspective of different eye witnesses?
So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. (Matthew 27:5)
With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out... (Acts 1:18)

Can you confuse God and Satan based on where you stand?
Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah." (2 Samuel 24:1)
Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. (1 Chronicles 21:1)

There are lots and lots of contradictions in the bible. So why would you think it was inspired and infallable?

I don't think you can escape the fact that you are making some gross assumptions here. You seem to be saying that because these examples are contradicted at surface level that they must not be harmonious at a deeper (which implies that you understand their full context). You don't. Granted, neither do I, but I am merely defending the point of consistency of Scripture--which needs no offense. It is what it is.

Are 2 Samuel and Chronicles contradictory if you recognize the power of God over Satan? If you do, you can see that it was Satan who was used for God's purposes with Israel. God's authority over Satan is similarly seen in the story of Job and in the Gospels, as well. These verses do not, therefore, contradict each other and are consistent with the rest of the Bible.

Regarding the Judas bit, you are making the assumption that these are two accounts of different modes of death, rather than events that are chronological to one another (Matthew preceeding Acts). You might say "Then he went away and hanged himself (presumably, in his field), and there fell headlong..." If you make the assumption that these are two different modes of death, then it would be a contradiction. Assumptions only lead to errant conclusions, however...it's unfortunate that they're easy to make.

You are welcome to say that you are not sure that these accounts are contradictory because you have not got all the facts. But you must not say that you know them to be contradictory for the same reason.
 
Gypsy - what is so hilarious here? Really - I don't get it.
Please tell us why are you so angry and against our Lord?

I don't want to speak out of turn, but I don't think he's angry.

I think he's frustrated because this conversation has finally ended up where these conversations always end up.


You're angry.
You have faith in atheism.
You're not listening/reading.
You just need to open your mind.
Watchmaker / argument by design.

Thanks for keeping it civil, but I think I'm going to sign off of this one.
 
The different perspectives argument is reasonable in some cases of apparent contradiction, but not all. I only brought up that contradiction because it was quoted before my post.

There are lots and lots of contradictions in the bible. So why would you think it was inspired and infallable?

I think you miss my point (remember I am the atheist who doesn't believe the Bible is the word of god), or maybe you are agreeing with me in positing your question. I am not sure.

My point is that the Bible makes a lot more sense when seen for what it is, a written documentation of oral traditions and personal recollections of historical events, mostly written down decades or more after the events actually occurred. In that vein, most of the contradictions in the Bible are understandable and excusable due to the fallibility of human recollection and understanding.

It is when one ascribes infallibility to these writings that the argument falls apart under the weight of Biblical contradictions. The literalists simply have no leg to stand on despite their insistence that the contradictions have an explanation even if it is one that we cannot understand with our "limited" minds.

The insistence of the fundamentalists on literalism is understandable however. If you take that away, you are free to "pick and choose" from the scripture and interpret as you are inspired by the holy spirit. However, with no external standard to apply every man will "do what is right in his own eyes." What a quandary.

The question of inspiration is equivalent to the question of the existence of god. Certainly it is possible that if god exists he could have divinely affected the minds of the authors to write what he wanted them to, and further could have inspired the Hampton Court Conference in the 3rd attempt to properly interpret and collate the scriptures. But this is predicated on the same faith that god exists and, unlike the question of literal infallibility, falls outside the realm of reason.

I see no reason for non-fundamentalists to insist on the literal infallibility of the scriptures. Why can they not just treat the Bible the same as the Biblical Apocrypha, or any other work of literature. Take a few moral lessons from the good parts, without the need to try to reconcile the bad parts.


- pod
 
I think you miss my point (remember I am the atheist who doesn't believe the Bible is the word of god), or maybe you are agreeing with me in positing your question. I am not sure.

My point is that the Bible makes a lot more sense when seen for what it is, a written documentation of oral traditions and personal recollections of historical events, mostly written down decades or more after the events actually occurred. In that vein, most of the contradictions in the Bible are understandable and excusable due to the fallibility of human recollection and understanding.

It is when one ascribes infallibility to these writings that the argument falls apart under the weight of Biblical contradictions. The literalists simply have no leg to stand on despite their insistence that the contradictions have an explanation even if it is one that we cannot understand with our "limited" minds.

The insistence of the fundamentalists on literalism is understandable however. If you take that away, you are free to "pick and choose" from the scripture and interpret as you are inspired by the holy spirit. However, with no external standard to apply every man will "do what is right in his own eyes." What a quandary.

The question of inspiration is equivalent to the question of the existence of god. Certainly it is possible that if god exists he could have divinely affected the minds of the authors to write what he wanted them to, and further could have inspired the Hampton Court Conference in the 3rd attempt to properly interpret and collate the scriptures. But this is predicated on the same faith that god exists and, unlike the question of literal infallibility, falls outside the realm of reason.

I see no reason for non-fundamentalists to insist on the literal infallibility of the scriptures. Why can they not just treat the Bible the same as the Biblical Apocrypha, or any other work of literature. Take a few moral lessons from the good parts, without the need to try to reconcile the bad parts.


- pod

I took your point and agree about the loss of infallability claims with the different perspectives argument. I just wanted to point out that the different perspectives argument doesn't apply to some contradictions even if it lets you explain away others.


I don't want to speak out of turn, but I don't think he's angry.

I think he's frustrated because this conversation has finally ended up where these conversations always end up.


You're angry.
You have faith in atheism.
You're not listening/reading.
You just need to open your mind.
Watchmaker / argument by design.

Thanks for keeping it civil, but I think I'm going to sign off of this one.

I agree with you.
I think most people have given up on this thread.
It's been pretty interesting.
 
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I took your point and agree about the loss of infallability claims with the different perspectives argument. I just wanted to point out that the different perspectives argument doesn't apply to some contradictions even if it lets you explain away others.




I agree with you.
I think most people have given up on this thread.
It's been pretty interesting.


This thread has been an education for me.

Obvious it's a very important subject, judging by the view count.....look on this forum...other forums....SEVEN THOUSAND? REALLY?

It's rare for a SDN thread on any forum to get a cuppla thousand views....this one, current day,

SEVEN LARGE PLUS

Ok.

I think we've established

IT'S IMPORTANT.

I thank all of you for your interaction.

I still wanna know the answer between my Jewish homies and Christianity.

I think the vast majority of you out there have...In essence, said:

"Jet, GIVE IT UP, MAN. We all BELIEVE WHAT WE BELIEVE,

So in essence,

THERE IS NO TRUTH."


Nah, dudes.

Sorry.

I believe in

TRUTH.

It's out there.

The ANSWER.

I'm just not smart enough to see it.

YET.

I'm a Florida Crakka Human, yes.

But I'll keep trying

to find

The Truth.
 
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Ok, I said I was done with this thread, and I was; but it's never ending so I think it breaks the statute of limitations. The thread still depresses me. That's good, because that's why it took about 3 minutes to glance through and catch up on 150 posts that seemed very repititive. The one word that most comes to my mind is "sheep." This is a board of a group of very elite brains on the planet, and the depressing thing about this thread is the blindly following sheep mentality of religion.

Everyone has a story that they "know is true." Got news for you, you don't have the SLIGHTEST friggin idea if any of it is true. Just think of the number of man hours spent by all these different religions sitting in groups worshipping mysterious beings. Think of what productively could be done with that time. Then look at all the fools worshipping useless dopes like Brittany and Paris and Obama and you see it isn't much of a stretch in the behavior (btw, why worship an insecure God that needs to be idolized like Brittany and Paris? If he exists, he'll be more impressed if you never go to church and live a God-like life, regardless of what some book says otherwise).

The religion worship thing in our DNA. It's the source of this group gathering closed minded blind mentality that leads to incredibly bizarre rituals, bigotry, wars, you name it. Again, it's very very depressing to me.... so, adios till another couple hundred or so posts.
 
Ok, I said I was done with this thread, and I was; but it's never ending so I think it breaks the statute of limitations. The thread still depresses me. That's good, because that's why it took about 3 minutes to glance through and catch up on 150 posts that seemed very repititive. The one word that most comes to my mind is "sheep." This is a board of a group of very elite brains on the planet, and the depressing thing about this thread is the blindly following sheep mentality of religion.

Everyone has a story that they "know is true." Got news for you, you don't have the SLIGHTEST friggin idea if any of it is true. Just think of the number of man hours spent by all these different religions sitting in groups worshipping mysterious beings. Think of what productively could be done with that time. Then look at all the fools worshipping useless dopes like Brittany and Paris and Obama and you see it isn't much of a stretch in the behavior (btw, why worship an insecure God that needs to be idolized like Brittany and Paris? If he exists, he'll be more impressed if you never go to church and live a God-like life, regardless of what some book says otherwise).

The religion worship thing in our DNA. It's the source of this group gathering closed minded blind mentality that leads to incredibly bizarre rituals, bigotry, wars, you name it. Again, it's very very depressing to me.... so, adios till another couple hundred or so posts.

Ok - I am done to with this thread.
I know that my point of view is not a modern one and for some is unpleasant.
At this moment the "western" spirituality - and I mean the Christianity failed.
The new Gods are Money, Fame, Addiction, Eternal Youth and so on.
We pray to them day by day and the result is : broken families, despair, suicide, unhappiness....
We went there because we tried to rationalize everything.
We tried to revolt against God and we believe that we can find "the way" without Him. I mentioned the results before....
Have a great 4-th of July!
2win
 
This thread has been an education for me.

Obvious it's a very important subject, judging by the view count.....look on this forum...other forums....SEVEN THOUSAND? REALLY?

It's rare for a SDN thread on any forum to get a cuppla thousand views....this one, current day,

SEVEN LARGE PLUS

Ok.

I think we've established

IT'S IMPORTANT.

I thank all of you for your interaction.

I still wanna know the answer between my Jewish homies and Christianity.

I think the vast majority of you out there have...In essence, said:

"Jet, GIVE IT UP, MAN. We all BELIEVE WHAT WE BELIEVE,

So in essence,

THERE IS NO TRUTH."


Nah, dudes.

Sorry.

I believe in

TRUTH.

It's out there.

The ANSWER.

I'm just not smart enough to see it.

YET.

I'm a Florida Crakka Human, yes.

But I'll keep trying

to find

The Truth.


6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
 
Ok, I said I was done with this thread, and I was; but it's never ending so I think it breaks the statute of limitations. The thread still depresses me. That's good, because that's why it took about 3 minutes to glance through and catch up on 150 posts that seemed very repititive. The one word that most comes to my mind is "sheep." This is a board of a group of very elite brains on the planet, and the depressing thing about this thread is the blindly following sheep mentality of religion.

Everyone has a story that they "know is true." Got news for you, you don't have the SLIGHTEST friggin idea if any of it is true. Just think of the number of man hours spent by all these different religions sitting in groups worshipping mysterious beings. Think of what productively could be done with that time. Then look at all the fools worshipping useless dopes like Brittany and Paris and Obama and you see it isn't much of a stretch in the behavior (btw, why worship an insecure God that needs to be idolized like Brittany and Paris? If he exists, he'll be more impressed if you never go to church and live a God-like life, regardless of what some book says otherwise).

The religion worship thing in our DNA. It's the source of this group gathering closed minded blind mentality that leads to incredibly bizarre rituals, bigotry, wars, you name it. Again, it's very very depressing to me.... so, adios till another couple hundred or so posts.

9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.


17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
 
No dude.

I don't want the 2lb pilates dumbbells.

I want

The Truth.

I have close Jewish friends that do not believe Jesus was the son of god. That's completely against my teachings; if and when I go back to mass I'll be thinking about my Jewish homies....they don't think that....yet all the people in this catholic church think that Jesus.....

I hate to have to break it down to this level

BUT

THERE EXISTS

TWO SOCIETIES


believing

2 completely different, very important, very religious

VIEWS.


Jewish homie (we've been friends since 1988) and I go back and forth....affectionately, yet conflicting in

Who's Got The RIGHT

Story.


I really don't know which one of us is right and which one is wrong when it comes to the Jesus thing.

I enjoy the fraternity-esque debates.....neither is trying to

WIN....

yet we confront each other with completely different sides of the spectrum....both of us are MDs, both of us are pretty intelligent, yet when it comes to this subject obviously


somebody's right and somebody's wrong.

I don't care whether I'm right or wrong with my affectionate banter with my Jewish buddy.

I just

WANNA KNOW THE TRUTH.

Is Jesus the son of god?

Ok.

OR,

Is god IT, the Christian faith has been misguided, Jesus is NOT the son of god?

Ok.

I'm not on either team.

I just wanna

KNOW.

"Jesus said, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.' 'You are a king, then!' said Pilate. Jesus answered, 'You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.'"


"I give [my followers] eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Again the high priest asked him, 'Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?'

I am,' said Jesus.

And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.'
"
 
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