How many volunteer hours?

[emma121]

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I currently have about...

400 hours volunteering at a camp (but this was a couple summers ago)
70 hours tutoring inner city kids
Will hopefully have at least 40 hours volunteering at a hospital by May

I'm really worried I don't have enough. What is considered average for volunteer hours?

If it makes any difference, I also have:
Over 1,000 hours of NIH research
60ish hours of clinical shadowing
Many other activities

Thanks for any input!

 

[Pagan FutureDoc]

The only thing I see lacking is clinical exposure. Try to volunteer more in the medical field or get a job that has you around patients.

 

[familyaerospace]

Yes you need medical volunteering too.

A lot of people will have several hundred to a thousand non-medical volunteering listed based on the applications I've seen, but will also usually have a minimum of 100 medical volunteering.

 

[Spector1]

try to get ~200-300hours of med volunteering hrs

 

[moisne]

Gosh these people are number crazy. Make sure you shadow 3-4 days with a doctor and you should be fine on your volunteering...

 

[AlfonsTheGuru]

Gosh these people are number crazy. Make sure you shadow 3-4 days with a doctor and you should be fine on your volunteering...

Not the same thing. Clinical volunteering should be 200-400 hours and something meaningful.

 

[Goro]

Without real patient contact experience, OP is reject bait. My students would eat him/her alive.

Op, you need to show us that you know what you're getting into, and that you really want to be around sick people. Shadowing doesn't do that.

Gosh these people are number crazy. Make sure you shadow 3-4 days with a doctor and you should be fine on your volunteering...

 

[bravomavo]

as long as you can have a meaningful discussion about your experience you should be OK

 

[moisne]

He has like 40 clinical. Do like 3-4 days is another 20-40 hours.

I only had 100 clinical hours but had like 1k medical research. Has it gotten that competitive?

 

[123456123456]

I agree, more clinical experience through a paid position or volunteering (or both).

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

Dont be too wrapped up in the numbers game. See the big picture and look for clinical contact hours for the sake of actually learning about the people you want to become, people you would be working with in the future, and patients whom you should learn to love and listen to. Look for possibilities in scribing perhaps, and try to network asap.

 

[NickNaylor]

I agree with @Dr Tony T. Chopper in that numbers themselves are relatively meaningless. There is no threshold beyond which you're "ok." You need to get enough experience - be it clinical volunteering, other volunteering, whatever - so that people that look at your application will take you seriously when you talk about those things, so that it's clear you were genuinely interested in what you were doing, and, perhaps most importantly, so that you gain something meaningful from the experience regardless of what that experience does for your medical school application. Doing things strictly to get into medical school isn't wise, and most people that have admissions experience will be able to see right through that unless you're a particularly adept liar.

Do the things that you're interested in, do everything you can to learn about medicine and what all is actually involved with becoming a physician, and the rest will follow. Approaching this kind of thing as a checklist to be completed will not work out optimally. You may get accepted to some schools with that approach, but if you have your sights set high you will likely not succeed.

 

[emma121]

Without real patient contact experience, OP is reject bait. My students would eat him/her alive.

Op, you need to show us that you know what you're getting into, and that you really want to be around sick people. Shadowing doesn't do that.

"Eat me alive?" "Reject bait?" Really? So do your students all have 1000+ hours of NIH research with papers published? Did they all start a 401k non-profit organization by themselves? Have they all danced and played violin competitively for almost 15 years? Have they organized a conference as well as several other campus events? Participated in a tutoring outreach program every single Saturday, all day? On a full scholarship at a top 10 liberal arts school?

Look, I know my lack of clinical volunteering isn't perfect, but I going to change that. Maybe I'm not the strongest candidate in the world, but I am NOT "reject bait." What an insult. And from someone who knows literally nothing about me.

 

[emma121]

try to get ~200-300hours of med volunteering hrs

Is that a specific quota or something? I will definitely aim for around there, but where did you get that number from?

 

[emma121]

He has like 40 clinical. Do like 3-4 days is another 20-40 hours.

I only had 100 clinical hours but had like 1k medical research. Has it gotten that competitive?

Yeah, I will definitely be doing some more shadowing.

 

[Spector1]

Is that a specific quota or something? I will definitely aim for around there, but where did you get that number from?

its more of a ballpark number common of competitive applicants. Its not really a quota so much as the people you will be competing against will have around that many hours if not more.

 

[Pagan FutureDoc]

Your other ECs are great but that you aren't showing is that you want to be caring for the sick and infirm on a daily basis for the rest of your life.

You look like a dynamite PhD applicant but you don't show that you want to interact with patients.

 

[emma121]

Your other ECs are great but that you aren't showing is that you want to be caring for the sick and infirm on a daily basis for the rest of your life.

You look like a dynamite PhD applicant but you don't show that you want to interact with patients.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from- so I'll definitely be doing some clinical volunteering soon. Though to be fair, I've definitely worked with a variety of people from diverse backgrounds (admittedly not medical patients), such as inner city kids, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that still demonstrates a commitment to helping others. What do you think?

 

[spiffysteve]

I think that adcoms would say that there's a difference between "a commitment to helping others" and caring for patients. Your experiences will definitely help, don't get me wrong, but you'd have a hard time selling them as being on the same level as hands-on patient experience.

 

[Goro]

I know enough about you that you know nothing about what you're getting into, that you have an Extremely thin skin, and that you are similar to other high achieving interviewees who get rejected at my school because you have yet to display any evidence that you really want to be around sick and injured people for the next 30 to 40 years.

"Eat me alive?" "Reject bait?" Really? So do your students all have 1000+ hours of NIH research with papers published? Did they all start a 401k non-profit organization by themselves? Have they all danced and played violin competitively for almost 15 years? Have they organized a conference as well as several other campus events? Participated in a tutoring outreach program every single Saturday, all day? On a full scholarship at a top 10 liberal arts school?

Look, I know my lack of clinical volunteering isn't perfect, but I going to change that. Maybe I'm not the strongest candidate in the world, but I am NOT "reject bait." What an insult. And from someone who knows literally nothing about me.

 

[robin911]

"Eat me alive?" "Reject bait?" Really? So do your students all have 1000+ hours of NIH research with papers published? Did they all start a 401k non-profit organization by themselves? Have they all danced and played violin competitively for almost 15 years? Have they organized a conference as well as several other campus events? Participated in a tutoring outreach program every single Saturday, all day? On a full scholarship at a top 10 liberal arts school?

Look, I know my lack of clinical volunteering isn't perfect, but I going to change that. Maybe I'm not the strongest candidate in the world, but I am NOT "reject bait." What an insult. And from someone who knows literally nothing about me.

Honestly, yes a lot of competitive premeds have similar EC's to that... at least I do.

I am not bragging, just saying that you came on this forum for advice. And @Goro who sits on the admissions committee for a medical school gave you advice, which you cannot get anywhere else aside from SDN. If he gives you an answer you don't want to hear, tough crap. We all have ways to better our application, myself included... but justifying your other experiences when you lack clinical experiences is not good enough. You now know what you need to do and can start implementing that. Maybe start volunteering with special olympics or in a hospital setting instead of tutoring kids every Saturday.

And at this time without clinical experience, you probably will be overlooked at a majority of schools who want to see clinical exposure in a diverse setting, and you may be termed "reject bait". It doesn't mean you will not get into medical school, it just means that now you know your weakness area and can start kicking butt to gain experience so that you can become "acceptance bait".
Edit: See this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/no-clinical-volunteering.1169603/

 

[emma121]

Honestly, yes a lot of competitive premeds have similar EC's to that... at least I do.

I am not bragging, just saying that you came on this forum for advice. And @Goro who sits on the admissions committee for a medical school gave you advice, which you cannot get anywhere else aside from SDN. If he gives you an answer you don't want to hear, tough crap. We all have ways to better our application, myself included... but justifying your other experiences when you lack clinical experiences is not good enough. You now know what you need to do and can start implementing that. Maybe start volunteering with special olympics or in a hospital setting instead of tutoring kids every Saturday.

And at this time without clinical experience, you probably will be overlooked at a majority of schools who want to see clinical exposure in a diverse setting, and you may be termed "reject bait". It doesn't mean you will not get into medical school, it just means that now you know your weakness area and can start kicking butt to gain experience so that you can become "acceptance bait".
Edit: See this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/no-clinical-volunteering.1169603/

I completely agree that I have areas to improve- like everyone. And I do appreciate people on this forum giving critical advice. And I will begin to rack up the clinical volunteering hours, for sure. But calling people "reject bait" and saying they'll be "eaten alive" when you know VERY little about that person, their background, their accomplishments or their experiences is unnecessary and naive. Give the advice without the attitude 🙂

 

[Goro]

Here's a teaching moment: whenever you see someone lash out with the "you don't know anything about me!" meme, you know you're dealing with a loose cannon.

So Tx: Ignore function.

Yet I still received two annoying emails from OP, which I thought the "Ignore" function would set up a barrier against.

OP needs to learn it's about the patients, and not about her.

FYI: I stole the phrase "my students would eat you alive" from the very wise @gyngyn.

Hopefully banhammer is cocked and loaded.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Settle down kids

OP, posters are right in that you need to be able to demonstrate to adcoms that you want to work with sick people for the rest of your life. Worry more about what you're doing than about the number of hours that you're doing it. As long as you can convince adcoms that you are interested and willing to work with patients and sick people, you should be fine, though the more experience you have to back your statements up, the more inclined they will be to believe you. This means that you should do some active clinical work. You can volunteer in hospice, work in an emergency department, scribe for a year, etc. There are a lot of ways to do this. Shadowing doesn't count for this as it's passive, though it's important too.

 

[familyaerospace]

"Eat me alive?" "Reject bait?" Really? So do your students all have 1000+ hours of NIH research with papers published? Did they all start a 401k non-profit organization by themselves? Have they all danced and played violin competitively for almost 15 years? Have they organized a conference as well as several other campus events? Participated in a tutoring outreach program every single Saturday, all day? On a full scholarship at a top 10 liberal arts school?

Look, I know my lack of clinical volunteering isn't perfect, but I going to change that. Maybe I'm not the strongest candidate in the world, but I am NOT "reject bait." What an insult. And from someone who knows literally nothing about me.

Well I don't know about @Goro's students, but I had literally 10K+ hours of research including a few thousand when I was CONSULTING for the NIH and had multiple publications (also worked for the Russian Space Agency and have a few thousand hours with them), I was a founding member of a 501(c)(3) organization, started several companies, did theater for 20+ years (including doing competitions), was involved in film, tv, and radio, organized a few international conferences (I was an officer in multiple international organizations as well), I didn't do campus events because I was too busy doing national and international events, and I had several thousand tutoring hours. I was not on a full scholarship because I ran away from home to go to college (no contact with them for like 3 years) and went to a school far far away from my parents to a top 20 private university. I also have a few ordinations as scary as that is, have a disability, read more than a few languages, was a first generation college student, had been homeless a few times (and was homeless when I was accepted to medical school) and as am a member of several minority groups, am LGBT and have four kids. I also had 400+ shadowing hours and 300+ medical volunteering hours. I am probably more typical than not and it took me four cycles to get accepted.

You still need shadowing and some clinical otherwise you very well could be rejected for that alone.

That being said, I do know people who got in with little or no clinical volunteering hours and it really really shows. They grabbed the person I am thinking of because she worked full time during college and is from a very very small town, worked in a smaller town and wants to go back to practice in the teeny tiny town. Almost everyone in my class has a few hundred of volunteering/shadowing.

 

[spikes]

I completely agree that I have areas to improve- like everyone. And I do appreciate people on this forum giving critical advice. And I will begin to rack up the clinical volunteering hours, for sure. But calling people "reject bait" and saying they'll be "eaten alive" when you know VERY little about that person, their background, their accomplishments or their experiences is unnecessary and naive. Give the advice without the attitude 🙂

Lighten up OP its just an expression...

He's saying he thinks you need more clinical hours. Take his advice or leave it, no need to take it to heart.

 

[Shirafune]

I completely agree that I have areas to improve- like everyone. And I do appreciate people on this forum giving critical advice. And I will begin to rack up the clinical volunteering hours, for sure. But calling people "reject bait" and saying they'll be "eaten alive" when you know VERY little about that person, their background, their accomplishments or their experiences is unnecessary and naive. Give the advice without the attitude 🙂

OP, your attitude just comes off as standoffish and defensive. Humility will take you a long way in life, especially in a field like medicine. If you are fortunate to receive an acceptance in the future, I think you will learn that not all your mentors will be as understanding and supportive as some members here on SDN; some will be very brash and demeaning.

To quickly summarize, your experiences should validate your decision to apply to medical school in the first place. Can you see yourself interacting with patients for the remainder of your career? If yes, go ahead and apply knowing that you will need to confidently convey and support your convictions about medicine and your career goals. If you're not sure, get some more experience and then decide.

 

[emma121]

Well I don't know about @Goro's students, but I had literally 10K+ hours of research including a few thousand when I was CONSULTING for the NIH and had multiple publications (also worked for the Russian Space Agency and have a few thousand hours with them), I was a founding member of a 501(c)(3) organization, started several companies, did theater for 20+ years (including doing competitions), was involved in film, tv, and radio, organized a few international conferences (I was an officer in multiple international organizations as well), I didn't do campus events because I was too busy doing national and international events, and I had several thousand tutoring hours. I was not on a full scholarship because I ran away from home to go to college (no contact with them for like 3 years) and went to a school far far away from my parents to a top 20 private university. I also have a few ordinations as scary as that is, have a disability, read more than a few languages, was a first generation college student, had been homeless a few times (and was homeless when I was accepted to medical school) and as am a member of several minority groups, am LGBT and have four kids. I also had 400+ shadowing hours and 300+ medical volunteering hours. I am probably more typical than not and it took me four cycles to get accepted.

You still need shadowing and some clinical otherwise you very well could be rejected for that alone.

That being said, I do know people who got in with little or no clinical volunteering hours and it really really shows. They grabbed the person I am thinking of because she worked full time during college and is from a very very small town, worked in a smaller town and wants to go back to practice in the teeny tiny town. Almost everyone in my class has a few hundred of volunteering/shadowing.

Fair. Though I also think it's important to keep in mind that a traditional and non-traditional applicant have to be evaluated differently. No doubt, you are much older than I am, and thus, have had many more experiences and just more time living in general. And also, I am not arguing that I am "exceptional" in some way- I know I'm not. I'm just saying that I've done quite a bit with the 19 years I've been alive. And hopefully enough to not be an automatic reject.

 

[emma121]

OP, your attitude just comes off as standoffish and defensive. Humility will take you a long way in life, especially in a field like medicine. If you are fortunate to receive an acceptance in the future, I think you will learn that not all your mentors will be as understanding and supportive as some members here on SDN; some will be very brash and demeaning.

To quickly summarize, your experiences should validate your decision to apply to medical school in the first place. Can you see yourself interacting with patients for the remainder of your career? If yes, go ahead and apply knowing that you will need to confidently convey and support your convictions about medicine and your career goals. If you're not sure, get some more experience and then decide.

Haha, I'm not sure it is considered "defensive" to take issue with someone basically telling me I'm an automatic reject. I can deal with difficult, brash people. I can absolutely deal with and gratefully accept constructive criticism. What I don't accept is others telling me I'm going to fail. If I accepted that, I would never have gotten this far 🙂. And yes, I agree with your advice that I do need to demonstrate my commitment to working with patients.

 

[robin911]

Haha, I'm not sure it is considered "defensive" to take issue with someone basically telling me I'm an automatic reject. I can deal with difficult, brash people. I can absolutely deal with and gratefully accept constructive criticism. What I don't accept is others telling me I'm going to fail. If I accepted that, I would never have gotten this far 🙂. And yes, I agree with your advice that I do need to demonstrate my commitment to working with patients.

Here is a wiki article on being humble: http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Humble
Here is another article on how to take constructive criticism well: http://lifehacker.com/5915488/how-can-i-learn-to-take-criticism-without-taking-it-personally

You took @Goro comment very personally when in reality, he says that to a lot of people, which is why i told you to read a thread very similar to yours in which many people have said the same thing as on this thread. (I will link it here again so you can read it: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/no-clinical-volunteering.1169603/ )

You have to remember that in medical school applications, yeah they look at your EC's and are drawn into you PS and story but they still have checklist items that they need for their school. you will have some people tell you that they got into medical school with out having certain EC's but the main point is that a majority of people do have clinical volunteer hours or some form of caring directly for patients/people which is where you need to improve. Read MSAR statistics sometime for the medical schools you want to go to.

And yes, you were being very "defensive" by stating your 20 E.C. activities in a dramatic rebuttal to someone who has had 20+ years more experience than you and sits on an adcom who looks at applicants like you and I everyday. Stop whining that you don't have clinical hours and go get some, like you said, you are 19 and have 2 years left to get them before you apply at age 21.

 

[Doctoblast]

I haven't read every single post on this thread, but my $0.02:

I didn't have huge number of clinical volunteering hours (<250), but I did have a lot of clinical experience working. So no, you don't need 1000 hours, but you need to be able to show that you know what you're getting into. I'd say at least a couple hundred combined between paid and volunteering if you have good stats otherwise. Remember that you're going to write about these experiences on your app and probably talk about them during your interview. You don't need a million hours. Quality over quantity.

Also, don't be an ass to adcoms on here just because you don't agree with them. They take time out of their already busy lives to help SDN users out.

 

[emma121]

Here is a wiki article on being humble: http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Humble
Here is another article on how to take constructive criticism well: http://lifehacker.com/5915488/how-can-i-learn-to-take-criticism-without-taking-it-personally

You took @Goro comment very personally when in reality, he says that to a lot of people, which is why i told you to read a thread very similar to yours in which many people have said the same thing as on this thread. (I will link it here again so you can read it: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/no-clinical-volunteering.1169603/ )

You have to remember that in medical school applications, yeah they look at your EC's and are drawn into you PS and story but they still have checklist items that they need for their school. you will have some people tell you that they got into medical school with out having certain EC's but the main point is that a majority of people do have clinical volunteer hours or some form of caring directly for patients/people which is where you need to improve. Read MSAR statistics sometime for the medical schools you want to go to.

And yes, you were being very "defensive" by stating your 20 E.C. activities in a dramatic rebuttal to someone who has had 20+ years more experience than you and sits on an adcom who looks at applicants like you and I everyday. Stop whining that you don't have clinical hours and go get some, like you said, you are 19 and have 2 years left to get them before you apply at age 21.

So this year, I sat in on an admissions officer panel with officials representing about 8 medical schools. All of them were vehement that there is absolutely no "checklist" of activities and that there is absolutely no requirement that you volunteer specifically in a clinical setting. Yes, that was absolutely said. And yes, I have looked at MSAR. Most of the schools I'm looking at say that around 60-75% have volunteered in a clinical setting, and maybe 10%-20% have worked in a clinical setting: by no means 100% for either of these. I'm not saying that I'm going to take the risk of NOT volunteering clinically. I definitely will do this starting soon. However, all the evidence points to you being pretty much wrong about there being some kind of "checklist" of activities.

 

[emma121]

Also, as a question for everyone: what would you say is an average number of hours for non-clinical volunteering, clinical volunteering, working in a clinical setting, and research? Clearly there is no magic number and clearly quality is better than quantity. But a ballpark estimate? Just so I know approx. how much time I need to start committing.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

practice coming off as humble for the interviews

 

[Doug Underhill]

"Eat me alive?" "Reject bait?" Really? So do your students all have 1000+ hours of NIH research with papers published? Did they all start a 401k non-profit organization by themselves? Have they all danced and played violin competitively for almost 15 years? Have they organized a conference as well as several other campus events? Participated in a tutoring outreach program every single Saturday, all day? On a full scholarship at a top 10 liberal arts school?

Are you applying to a Ph.D program in biomedical research? Are you applying for a doctorate in dance or the violin? No. You're applying for medical school. Medical school is not an end, it's training to become a physician. The MD degree is not useful in the absence of a desire to become a practicing physician.

It is a very expensive degree and medical school admissions officers will find it quite unfortunate if you go through all your clerkships in third year and do not enjoy any of them. To ensure that this is not the case, they require clinical exposure. Your 60 hours of shadowing is a good start: however, it's not enough. It represents one workweek for the average doctor. That's all you have? One workweek, over four years? The average applicant has over 150 hours of clinical exposure. We recommend clinical volunteering because it gives you more hands-on exposure to dealing with patients than shadowing. Patients are different from other groups you may volunteer with. They can be needy, they can be rude, they can be contagious, they can smell bad or leak various bodily fluids. Adcoms want to know that this is what you want and that you would find this rewarding despite this.

 

[Lawpy]

Dont be too wrapped up in the numbers game. See the big picture and look for clinical contact hours for the sake of actually learning about the people you want to become, people you would be working with in the future, and patients whom you should learn to love and listen to. Look for possibilities in scribing perhaps, and try to network asap.

I agree with @Dr Tony T. Chopper in that numbers themselves are relatively meaningless. There is no threshold beyond which you're "ok." You need to get enough experience - be it clinical volunteering, other volunteering, whatever - so that people that look at your application will take you seriously when you talk about those things, so that it's clear you were genuinely interested in what you were doing, and, perhaps most importantly, so that you gain something meaningful from the experience regardless of what that experience does for your medical school application. Doing things strictly to get into medical school isn't wise, and most people that have admissions experience will be able to see right through that unless you're a particularly adept liar.

Do the things that you're interested in, do everything you can to learn about medicine and what all is actually involved with becoming a physician, and the rest will follow. Approaching this kind of thing as a checklist to be completed will not work out optimally. You may get accepted to some schools with that approach, but if you have your sights set high you will likely not succeed.

Well said. The only numbers that matter are GPA and MCAT

 

[emma121]

practice coming off as humble for the interviews

You know, it's funny... I am actually a really quiet, unassuming person. I don't have any sort of ego and I don't think I'm exceptional. I know I have faults and I am open about them. I'm getting great recommendations from professors and advisors who have enthusiastically said they think I have great character and would make a great doctor. Calling out someone's rude comment does't equate to being arrogant or self righteous. And really, I'm still unclear about why people who don't know me at all are commenting on my "lack of humility." Maybe they're just trying to stroke their own ego.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

.

 

[familyaerospace]

Fair. Though I also think it's important to keep in mind that a traditional and non-traditional applicant have to be evaluated differently. No doubt, you are much older than I am, and thus, have had many more experiences and just more time living in general. And also, I am not arguing that I am "exceptional" in some way- I know I'm not. I'm just saying that I've done quite a bit with the 19 years I've been alive. And hopefully enough to not be an automatic reject.

I am not that much older than you and most of what I claim I was literally doing when I was in my senior year of college. The only two things NOT done during college was working for RSA and NIH. I had already been the vice president of two corporations by the time I graduated with my BS degree when I was 22.

 

[Stagg737]

Also, as a question for everyone: what would you say is an average number of hours for non-clinical volunteering, clinical volunteering, working in a clinical setting, and research? Clearly there is no magic number and clearly quality is better than quantity. But a ballpark estimate? Just so I know approx. how much time I need to start committing.

It completely depends on where you're applying. As Goro said, at some schools your application will be 'reject bait' because you don't have enough clinical experience. Other schools may not care and value your research far more. Each medical school will have a "typical" type of student that they look for, and it varies from school to school. Where I go, the 3 big things they look at are MCAT, sGPA, and clinical hours and I can tell you that no clinical volunteering would almost certainly get you an auto-reject here. If you don't hit a minimum in each of those categories, you get rejected unless you're exceptional everywhere else and can explain why you're lacking in the specific area. Some schools will care far more about research hours. Many won't care that much about either and will just want strong MCAT and GPAs.

To answer your question on "average numbers", here's my opinion. I'd say you should shoot for at least 500 hours total of clinical experience and non-clinical volunteering, and you should have at least 100 hours of each. Research completely depends on the school. If you're going for DO or somewhere that focuses heavily on patient care, then research is just a bonus. If you're going somewhere that focuses more on research, you would want to have a minimum of 1 semester's worth of research but preferably at least 1 year's worth of research to show you were committed to the project. If you're gunning for somewhere like WashU or San Fran which are extremely heavy on research, you're going to want to have either a publication or a few year's worth of research under your belt (preferably both in that situation).

If I remember my profile correctly, I had around 200 clinical volunteering hours, 1,000+ hours of volunteering and clinical experience, ~200 hours of research experience, and 3,000+ hours of extracurricular experiences altogether. I'd say I'd be a decently solid applicant for most schools with those numbers if that's all you're looking at. That's just my opinion though.

 

[robin911]

So this year, I sat in on an admissions officer panel with officials representing about 8 medical schools. All of them were vehement that there is absolutely no "checklist" of activities and that there is absolutely no requirement that you volunteer specifically in a clinical setting. Yes, that was absolutely said. And yes, I have looked at MSAR. Most of the schools I'm looking at say that around 60-75% have volunteered in a clinical setting, and maybe 10%-20% have worked in a clinical setting: by no means 100% for either of these. I'm not saying that I'm going to take the risk of NOT volunteering clinically. I definitely will do this starting soon. However, all the evidence points to you being pretty much wrong about there being some kind of "checklist" of activities.

If there is not a checklist why do you give a crap whether or not you have clinical volunteer hours then?

 

[emma121]

It completely depends on where you're applying. As Goro said, at some schools your application will be 'reject bait' because you don't have enough clinical experience. Other schools may not care and value your research far more. Each medical school will have a "typical" type of student that they look for, and it varies from school to school. Where I go, the 3 big things they look at are MCAT, sGPA, and clinical hours and I can tell you that no clinical volunteering would almost certainly get you an auto-reject here. If you don't hit a minimum in each of those categories, you get rejected unless you're exceptional everywhere else and can explain why you're lacking in the specific area. Some schools will care far more about research hours. Many won't care that much about either and will just want strong MCAT and GPAs.

To answer your question on "average numbers", here's my opinion. I'd say you should shoot for at least 500 hours total of clinical experience and non-clinical volunteering, and you should have at least 100 hours of each. Research completely depends on the school. If you're going for DO or somewhere that focuses heavily on patient care, then research is just a bonus. If you're going somewhere that focuses more on research, you would want to have a minimum of 1 semester's worth of research but preferably at least 1 year's worth of research to show you were committed to the project. If you're gunning for somewhere like WashU or San Fran which are extremely heavy on research, you're going to want to have either a publication or a few year's worth of research under your belt (preferably both in that situation).

If I remember my profile correctly, I had around 200 clinical volunteering hours, 1,000+ hours of volunteering and clinical experience, ~200 hours of research experience, and 3,000+ hours of extracurricular experiences altogether. I'd say I'd be a decently solid applicant for most schools with those numbers if that's all you're looking at. That's just my opinion though.

Thank you! This is a helpful starting point. 🙂

 

[emma121]

If there is not a checklist why do you give a crap whether or not you have clinical volunteer hours then?

I wanted to know how many hours is typical, even though there is no official checklist.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I'm going to tell you guys the story of a graduate student I knew in college. He used to be a student at Stanford, had an MCAT in the 42-45 region, a GPA well above 3.9, a few publications, at least one of which was in one of those fancy journals (Nature, Science, Cell), had one of the most interesting and unique hobbies that I've ever head of, and was a super personable guy (I had the pleasure of getting a beer with him one time). He applied to 35+ medical schools all across the board and got into exactly 0. He called up several of the schools and asked why he didn't get in. Every answer was the same: he had no clinical experience. He's now a PhD student (he found his true passion) and continues his super amazing hobby on the side.

Now this is n=1 anecdotal data, but it suggests that no matter how impressive you are, lack of certain things can still keep you out. Clinical exposure is certainly one of those things.

 

[Shirafune]

I wanted to know how many hours is typical, even though there is no official checklist.

I don't know what kind of answer you want if you already said that adcoms vehemently deny the checklist method of getting into medical school. Just go start volunteering at a hospital until (1) you get tired of volunteering, (2) you want to try another department, (3) you can't reasonably schedule it in, blah blah blah.

And if you actually do want a minimum, 100-150 hours would be a fair goal. The more time you "smelt it, you dealt [with] it," then the more convincing your commitment to patient care will be.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

I'm going to tell you guys the story of a graduate student I knew in college. He used to be a student at Stanford, had an MCAT in the 42-45 region, a GPA well above 3.9, a few publications, at least one of which was in one of those fancy journals (Nature, Science, Cell), had one of the most interesting and unique hobbies that I've ever head of, and was a super personable guy (I had the pleasure of getting a beer with him one time). He applied to 35+ medical schools all across the board and got into exactly 0. He called up several of the schools and asked why he didn't get in. Every answer was the same: he had no clinical experience. He's now a PhD student (he found his true passion) and continues his super amazing hobby on the side.

Now this is n=1 anecdotal data, but it suggests that no matter how impressive you are, lack of certain things can still keep you out. Clinical exposure is certainly one of those things.

Haha I was waiting for you to address that Its anecdotal the whole time I was reading about your friend! But what an incredible testament to the nature of today's medical school admissions agenda. I think 15-20 years from now, students might need to take more than 1 gap year as the norm, and perhaps we'd see a higher mix of nontrads with thicker clinical contact profiles...