How to get podiatry jobs after residency

[Deep Fibular]

Does anybody know the best way to obtain employement in podiatry after residncy? I really don't care to hear the sad stories, just how to make it in this field. I mean, do the schools help at all with finding you employment? Do you have to try and start your own practice in this screwed up medical climate? All responses are welcomed.

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[Deep Fibular]

I would definetly like to hear from Toejam on this matter!

 

[Toejam]

Ok, Fib.

As far as I know (and from my own personal experience), the schools have no way to help you find employment. And, there are no other sources that I'm aware of like recruiters, etc. Frankly, my impression of CCPM was that they were only interested in pilfering my wallet and could care less if I succeeded or not.

I can only tell you what I know from what I went through, what my classmates went through and what I've heard from the grapevine.

If you do a "good" residency (one that has a name) you might be able to hook up as an associate with one of the attendings you work with. Even then, you won't be doing much more than chip and clip and nursing homes (do you think that someone is going to give you their lucrative stuff?).

I have 5 classmates in L.A. who all have at least two years training (at least one year surgical) and they all finished their programs last June. None of them are doing any surgery or working at a legitimate practice. All of them are working in clinics (otherwise known as "mills"...because the object is to see as many patients as possible and bill as much as possible....these are mostly Medicaid and some Medicare) and not making more than 50k. From what I've heard and seen, the majority of residency grads do this kind of thing (me included) and bide their time waiting for a break (to hook up with someone in a real practice).

Bottom line is that there are almost no "jobs" when you finish. It's just the reality. There will be plenty of DPM's, however, who will want to use you as slave labor (to see patients at nasty clinics and go to nursing homes paying you sub-standard wages). And, they will expect you to "push the envelope" when it comes to diagnosing and billing. Again, the reality. Unless you do one of the top residencies you will likely end up doing someone else's dirty work and not get much money for it.

It's not negative. Only what I've seen and experienced.

And, I don't even know exactly how you find these rotten jobs. I got mine because a couple of highly unsrupulous DPM's advertised at my residency and I took the bait. I think the only way that you find employment is by asking a lot of people during your residency. You'll get someone to offer you something along the lines of what I mentioned above.

After that, I don't know where a DPM goes. This is why I've reapplied to DO and MD school. I'm not sure there are too many places to go.

Good luck

 

[Deep Fibular]

I thought this was neat from thepodiatryforum.com

I admit that many new grads are burdened with high student loan debts and starting salaries that make the early years lean and stressful. But there is no way to reduce the tuition and try to improve education.
MDs have always had more opportunities, recruitment offers, and overall more acceptance than DPMs. This has always been the case. I mean can you tell me a time when DPMs had a better enviroment than MDs?

Todays graduates do have problems, although I would argue that each generation of DPMs have faced their problems. DPMs of the 50s and 60s had no or limited prescribing privileges, most had no chance to be on any insurance plan. The 70s and 80s had little or no opportunity to have hospital privileges and at best 50% got any residency program. Today the new grads have higher debt but do not have to fight for the issues above. In addition the senior members of the profession can not sell their practices and many counted on this as part of their retirement. The paradigm must shift. This profession is new to the idea of associateships, hospital based practices, and full scope practice. We were always a profession of starting a practice or buying out a retiring doc. I see trends up in starting associate salaries (all of our residents have found a job with a base salary of 65-120,000 dollars). Each year more are joining multidisciplinary or ortho groups and recruitment packages are becoming more common as hospitals see what DPMs can do for their bottom line. This is because we have noe been in the hospital system going on 15 years and we are learning.
I graduated in the mid 80s and although my student debt was in the mid 70s (at interest rates of 15-17%) after my business loan I was 155,000 in debt and my monthly nut for just those 2 loans was 3500.00. So I know it is hard but it was never easy. Time will bring us to an equilibrium and I already see a brighter future. For everyone no, but it's a start.

 

[minoos]

I copied this from <a href="http://www.dr4feet.com" target="_blank">www.dr4feet.com</a>

Student Loan Hell




MD's, DO's, RN's, LPN's, PA's are just a few of the members of the health care team that are afforded the luxury of a "Loan Repayment Program" (LRP). Why not us? What is wrong with this picture. Why can't we have the same opportunities?



How come there are no student loan repayment programs for podiatrists? Sure, some wise-guy is going to tell me, "Indian Health Services has a handful of opportunities". And I mean a handful. According to my research approximately 5 were available last year. This year I am only aware of one.

I have done, what I believe to be, the most extensive research on this topic. Please go to my web site Dr4Feet.com & click Podiatry Topics. I have dedicated my web site's podiatry topic to this one issue, to helping DPM's with their student loan debt. I am not aware of any other DPM or DPM Organization that are interested in this. If there are any, please let me know so we can help DPM's in debt. I have contacted so many agencies with the hope of finding LRP's for podiatrists. I have listed all of their responses. It is really pathetic.

I never thought I would be in the position where I could be in Student Loan Hell. Sure you have others in our profession, that would love to respond to us "Struggling DPM's", saying such things as, "you took the loan, now pay it", or "you're a disgrace to the profession". My attitude is screw them.

Every now & then we see a letter in a podiatry magazine stating there are too many DPM's struggling. But we don't see enough articles about those with an enormous student loan debt. Why not? Are we an embarrassment to the profession? Are we afraid the public will find out? I personally believe there are DPM's out there that are thrilled to know student loan hell exists. This means more of us will not be able to maintain a practice & go out of business. And, if we Default on the student loans, we can be excluded from participating with Medicare. What about Bankruptcy? Not allowed.

There should be programs available for DPM's to work off their student loans. I'd like to see a program where a DPM can work 1 day per week in some type of underserved/rural community. Perhaps this can exist for 10 years. If the DPM arranges to work more time they can finish their obligation sooner. My research has shown that that most LRP's can offer as much as $30,000 per year, including a salary & other benefits. You usually have to sign on for at least 2 years. I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with LRP's at low repayments with no salary. After all this is podiatry. When I was a resident at St. Albans Veterans Administration Medical Center, there was no salary. No benefits. Therefore it wouldn't surprise me.

I live & work in Far Rockaway, one of the poorest but nicest areas in New York City. There are Article 28 Clinics in my neighborhood. What more proof do you need to prove I am struggling. My wife & I live in a 1 bedroom apartment with 3 small children. I'm not ashamed of this. We are happy to raise our family here. A larger apartment would be helpful. Many of my patients know my story. I joke with them about my situation, "so when should I come back Dr. Rudnick"? I tell them, " tomorrow, the day after & every day for at least a year, so I can pay off my student loans". This always gets a smile.

When I graduated podiatry school, no one was guaranteed a Residency. No one was guaranteed an LRP. Why not? My heart goes out to every DPM that has an enormous debt. Who is helping them? Who is there in the middle of the night to listen to them cry about their loans. I see all these banners on search engines about Eliminating Debt. Free yourself from credit card debt. We will help you declare bankrupcy. But student loans...forget it. It ain't going to go away. You are stuck with it.

I read of too many DPM's who can't get on insurance panels. That is a real problem. DPM's that want to be MD's. Tell that to a DPM about to go into default on their student loans. I know I don't give a damn about this. Board certification. If I had a choice to pay my student loan or take a board review course & certification exam, my money goes for the student loans. You don't pay your student loans you can get into a lot of trouble. You don't get board certified&#8230;I don't know. What can happen?

I was told in one email response (also on my web page) podiatry has to blame itself for not being part of the National Healthcare Service Corps. We pushed hard to let them know we are a surgical specialty. I don't care if I never perform another bunion surgery again, if that is what it takes to get a loan repayment program. I am not selling myself short. I am desperate.

I've surfed into web sites that list Defaulted Doctors. I don't believe for a minute those listed went out of their way not to pay their loans. I can sympathize with them. I know what is like to be behind payments. To have my lender call me at work & home to tell me I am behind on payments. I know ignoring these calls is the worst thing you can do. So I always call them back. After giving them your ID # the first sentence they say is, "Dr. Rudnick, I must inform you that you are currently 81 days late on you student loan payments". "I am sorry. I didn't make enough money these past few weeks to send all the requested amount. I could only send $ 200.00 a month & not the required $ 785.00". You'd think they would say, "thank you for sending something towards payment because this shows us you are trying your best to make good on your promissory note". But no way.
There was a letter written into a podiatry magazine last year. This DPM stated, podiatry school students, are using their loan money to buy fancy cars & live a good life. Is this person for real?

So what do we struggling hero's of the podiatry profession do? We are hero's. We are the winners. We go out there, do our job & try to make the best of it without putting a gun to our heads. That makes us a real winner. I won't be silent on this issue. I've even contacted several talk shows, hoping they will make this a topic. I am not embarrassed being in debt with student loans. I am embarrassed this profession has no adequate LRP's for its graduates.



Sincerely,
Alan Rudnick, D.P.M.
[email protected]

05/01/2000

 

[minoos]

Copied from Michigan podiatric medical association message board

Re: Podiatry as a job ?!

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Posted by Someone who knows better... on January 20, 2002 at 00:47:47:

In Reply to: Podiatry as a job ?! posted by Arash.M. on December 23, 2001 at 12:24:16:

It's not even a job, at least a job would pay you a salary! If you don't like the numbers you have already seen, think about this...

Once you've established a practice and actually try to treat patients, you'll face a little problem. In order to treat your patient, you first have to beg the managed care carrier to approve the treatment, and then beg them again to pay you a pittance for doing so. Oh, pardon me, I forgot, before you can even reach that level, you must become a participating provider with the managed care carriers. Good Luck! Here's what they'll say, "Sorry the system is closed", "We have enough pods in your area" or "We don't accept DPM's". Don't expect help from your fellow pods - Once they get their foot (no pun intended)in the door, the door is closed to everyone else - except for those in the "good old boy" network. That network perputates itself...Try bucking that!

Maybe you think you can bypass this by accecpting a position in an existing practice - just to start off and get on your feet (no pun intended). Here's what those of us who have been around long enough to know better say, "We eat our young!". You'll be lucky if you can get out of that situation with the clothes on your back - then you're back to square one.

Ok, now lets assume you're going alone - rented the office, gotten all equip, and staff. Lets go further and assume you even "managed" to get in a managed care program or two. So far doesn't sound so bad... But wait - did you actually make some money and do so while you provided reasonable and necesssary care. That won't continue because your "peers" won't let it - if they think you made more than them, there will be a price to pay. Your success will be like boood in a shark filled ocean - first they smell it, they they circle around you, and savagely they attack - it's called an "Audit"! Guess who does the audit, a fellow pod or a hired gun - same difference.

Suddenly your "peer" (not really, a real pod is too busy getting approvals to treat pts and then begging for payment, so he would not have time to work for anyone else - but he claims to be a "peer" nonetheless and has convinced the insurance company that he is) finds a new set of standards of care -standards even a third world country would not accept. Yes, your supposed peers will eat you alive, while they live off of their consultant fees paid for by insurance carriers.

Want a job? Move to Florida, mow lawns or clean pools for all the rich, retired pods who have the money to pay you! Money they made when podiatry was something to be proud of and really was a profession with a future. That future was destroyed by pods who created these problems, which compromised all the competent, honest, and hard working pods - now we all pay the price - at least thats the situation here in Michigan.

All kidding aside,I honestly feel there is no future or hope for the podiatry profession. It is a worthy and much needed medical speciality and if your goal is to help patients and do so while struggling to pay your bills, then go for it; otherwise, do more research and find another career. Good luck!

 

[minoos]

Again copied from the same source

Podiatry as a job

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Posted by Mike Ambroziak, DPM on January 29, 2002 at 21:17:24:

In Reply to: Podiatry as a job ?! posted by Arash.M. on December 23, 2001 at 12:24:16:

I've wanted to be a podiatrist since I was 7 years old. The explanation is long and boring, but a podiatrist in Cleveland was the first doctor I'd ever been to that made me feel better without giving me a shot, shoving a tongue depressor down my throat, or grabbing my then boyhood and asking me to turn my head and cough. I thought he was awesome, and I wanted to be a foot doctor. Didn't know what he did, didn't care. 27 years later I love it. I never really had a back-up plan and never thought twice about anything else.

Now, in reality, most people don't know what the heck they want to do until they're halfway or more through college. For this reason I would suggest you visit at least 3 different podiatrists in their office and see what they do before you worry about money or salary. If cutting toenails or squeezing pus out of diabetic feet or performing major reconstructive foot surgery doesn't scare you and you think you might like it, you'll be fine. If you won't enjoy that kind of stuff, quit now. The bottom line is, if you enjoy your job, money isn't really an issue. This goes towards the theory that what comes around goes around, and believe me, it does.

So, if you actually decide that this is the profession for you, what should you expect? Well the first day of podiatry school I was told that the average pod makes $70,000 the first year in practice. Sounds good. The last day of school I was told that most pods barely make enough to survive the first year, alot default on their loans, end up in jail or worse. So now what? There really is no easy way to explain how to succeed. Everyone has their own story. The smartest person in class may be the worst doctor, and vice versa. Somewhere there are a buch of people sitting in the waiting room of the worst doctor in the world.

So, what's my point? The point is, if you want to be sure to make alot of money, marry a millionnaire, win the lottery, be a CEO of a big company, etc. Physicians in general took about a 5% cut in pay from Medicare this year. How many professions actually get paid less every year? Most everyone I know gets a raise at least once a year. Physicians in general aren't respected like they used to be. Granted 90% of my patients love me (I think) 9% don't really care as long as you make them feel better and 1% will never be happy. But insurance companies will ask for more and more documentation to prove that you did what you say you did, then refuse to pay you for what you actually do. This is actually very rare.

I could go on forever, but this is not the place. The bottom line is, I love podiatry and I love what I do. If you're honest, ethical, treat people like you would want to be treated, you will succeed, eventually. Try to take a shortcut or fast track to riches, you're gonna get caught, eventually.

My first year in practice, working for another podiatrist, I made about $40,000 plus benefits. My wife is also a podiatrist and made the same under the same doctor. When we were forced to start our own practice, we managed to survive on $15,000 combined the first year. Now, in our 6th year, we average a little over $150,000 combined. That's net income. It goes up every year because we started with nothing. I work 3 to 4 days a week and do surgery 1 day a week, my partner works 2 days a week. We could easily make maybe twice that if we wanted simply by working more days. The patients are out there, we just choose to be home more with our 3 and 5 year old boys. There is nothing that we want that we don't have. Well, maybe a hunting lodge or fishing boat, but those will come. The thing is, it was NOT easy to get where we are. We had little, if any, help from anyone else, but we made it. I go home every day happy to be doing what I do.

So, I guess the message is, you better do something you know you will enjoy. Plumber, engineer, podiatrist, whatever. If you like what you do, you'll always be happy no matter how much you make. If you don't like it, you'll probably be miserable no matter how much you make. Can you make a good living in Podiatry? Without a doubt! Is it as easy as it used to be? No way. But what is?

If you got through this and want more, e-mail me directly, but I probably bored the hell out of you and anyone else that read this.

Good Luck!

 

[minoos]

Copied from the same source


Re: Resident looking for job

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Posted by Kirsty Livingstone on December 12, 2001 at 07:49:36:

In Reply to: Re: Resident looking for job posted by Aaron Goldberg on October 13, 2001 at 18:09:06:

: There are several podiatry jobs in the mid west and North east. However, they are tax code 1099 (independant ontractor) jobs. Which means you pay all your taxes(including SSN which means you may owe quite a bit to Uncle Sam), no benefits (i.e. vacations, 401K, med/dent, malpractice, podiatric dues, CMEs)Also, they involve a lot of driving clinic-to clinic, and taking house calls without renumeration for driving. The pay is quite low ($110 for five hours of clinic work regardless of the amt. of patients- 20 min. patients-max.approx. 35 patients), however please let me know if you are interested.
: Wait patiently for a quality podiatric job opportunity. The above are certainly not. -All the best.

 

[minoos]

Please read the following bankruptcy judgement at
<a href="http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/opinions/kane/98v1182.pdf" target="_blank">www.pamd.uscourts.gov/opinions/kane/98v1182.pdf</a>

 

[Toejam]

Just curious, Minoos. Are you a student?

In my very humble opinion, there is one main reason why there are no LRP's (Loan Repayment Programs for DPM's): DPM's are not as necessary compared with other health practitioners.

Bottom line is that much of what DPM's do is not ABSOLUTELY necessary to maintain a person's health. Mostly, DPM's debride calluses and cut nails. Forgive me, but a well trained monkey could probably do this. As for the other modalities DPM's employ (orthotics, surgery, wart removal, ingrown removal, etc.) other MD/DO's, PA's, nurse practitioners, etc. could do it in a pinch. Ulcer debridement could also be done by other health professionals.

I'm not saying that these other health care workers know more than us or do any better. It's just a matter of economics.

This is the only reason I could come up with.

 

[minoos]

Thank you Dr.Marc (toejam) for your comments. Let me i give you some background info about myself.
During my senior yeat at UCLA, I was told by a friend about the podiatry and I decided to check it out. After recieving a catalog from CCPM, I found it as an exciting field and decided to apply. Two weeks after I sent my application in March 2000, I recieved an interview from CCPM. They told me that would pay me for my airfare and hotel and meals for 3 days. I was shocked, since i had never heard a school would do that. I went for my interview, and I was accepted along with 3 other people right on the spot!. At my interview I found out that CCPM advertising for a DPM/M.D program(M.D in Costa Rica after the fourth year) and they have gotten many applicating for this dual degree. I began podiatry school in August 2000. In the first week of school, we were told that M.D option no longer exist!. Many people became furious but they couldn't do any thing they already have moved and couldn't go back. A month later we were informed that school is in a bad financial shape and is about to be bankrupt. None of these issues were discussed with applicants during interviewes. They fired some of the good clinicians and some people left voluntarily . We didn't have enough instructors for our ICM class, so we didn't learn that much.By the end of 2000, we weren't sure what is going to happen to school. The school lost its WASC accrediation and placed under probation by Podiatric council. I decided to leave CCPM, since I couldn't handle any more lies from school and I was uncertain about my future.Finally in 2001, they sold out the school and moved the school into two tiny rooms in touro osteopathic school and later on to trailers outside touro. Apparently they are moving to a nursing school this year. Iam happy with my choices regarding leaving CCPM and podiatric profession, Since the only thing the school was thinking was about making money from the students and not telling them the truth.

 

[efs]

Please keep in mind that your experiences at one school are not neccesarily an accurate reflection of the profession.

I get irritated when I here of experiences like these, as it is nothing like what I have seen. Creates a few more people out there with negative attitudes and willing to share them. Unfortunately, (or fortunately - depending on where you sit), it is not the case for all.

 

[Toejam]

I feel compelled to comiserate with Minoos.

I felt totally shafted by the time I left CCPM (1997). It was pretty clear to me that they didn't give a rat's ass about the students and were purely in it for the money. I could go on and on about the ridiculous decisions that they made and the absurd cost-cutting measures that they employed....

When I started, the school had several "Presidents" in the past who embezzled funds and skipped town. The "hospital" was pretty much empty the whole time I was there. The instructors were bitching about the low pay. The students were bitching about no clinical rotations. It was embarassing and disgusting. It figures that they would rope in some students promising them a dual DPM/MD degree. What B.S.! I can't tell you how many fearful, disillusioned students there were when I was matriculating. We heard so many horror stories about the profession, the system, the schools, etc. It's a wonder half of us stuck it out.

Funny...I also went to UCLA and was accepted to CCPM about a week after I visited. This was back in 1994 when they weren't quite so desperate. They also guaranteed us surgical residencies (which never materialized). Lot's of us were contemplating law suits. We were so beat up by the whole process, though, we just gave up.

My feeling is that I'm literally going to pretend that it never happened, go back to medical school and finish what I began 18 years ago.

Good luck, Minoos

 

[Deep Fibular]

Fellas,
It sounds more like a school problem because I had the same experience with OCPM my first year but switched to Barry and I am loving it. The thing I notice is that nobaody regulates the schools. This crap could definetly make 60 minutes and have a couple of these "bumb" schools close down for good. I don't think podiatry sucks, I think it is some of the schools and insurance companies! Toejam, you go a little overboard with our work could be done by well trained monkeys comment.

 

[Deep Fibular]

Also, the established podiatrist who screw over the younger podiatrists add to the problems in the profession.

 

[Toejam]

I didn't REALLY mean a well-trained monkey could do it. I just said it for effect. The point is that it certainly does not take a DOCTOR to cut someone's keratomas and dystrophic nails.

And, I agree that I don't hate podiatry at all. I just have tremendous enmity for the schools, the APMA and licensing boards.

 

[Deep Fibular]

Gotta admit that the "effect" worked!

 

[Footfxr]

Wow, I cannot believe this crap I am reading. First of all, act like a doctor. How many orthopedists are crying that they cannot find a job? If you wanted a job, MacDonalds has a great training program with tuition assistance.

Seriously, you make the oportunities for yourself. I am a PM&S 36 graduate from a good program. I will be working part-time for an orthopedist, and a podiatrist. Oh, I am also opening a 3 office practice with two partners.

Sure I will cut toenails, debride tylomas, and ORIF ankles. Not every case is a charcot reconstruction.

My advice to you, if you care to take it is: Work hard, take chances and be the best foot and ankle specialist you can. Do not blame the colleges, the boards, insurance carriers, the old-timers. The only one to blame for lack of success is yourself. Hard to swallow, but true. I've noticed a great deal of this "Why Me" syndrome in podiatry. Get over it or get out of it.

Good luck.

 

[jonwill]

Wow, I cannot believe this crap I am reading. First of all, act like a doctor. How many orthopedists are crying that they cannot find a job? If you wanted a job, MacDonalds has a great training program with tuition assistance.

Seriously, you make the oportunities for yourself. I am a PM&S 36 graduate from a good program. I will be working part-time for an orthopedist, and a podiatrist. Oh, I am also opening a 3 office practice with two partners.

Sure I will cut toenails, debride tylomas, and ORIF ankles. Not every case is a charcot reconstruction.

My advice to you, if you care to take it is: Work hard, take chances and be the best foot and ankle specialist you can. Do not blame the colleges, the boards, insurance carriers, the old-timers. The only one to blame for lack of success is yourself. Hard to swallow, but true. I've noticed a great deal of this "Why Me" syndrome in podiatry. Get over it or get out of it.

Good luck.

This cracks me up. Of course schools don't help you get a job. You still have 3 years of residency ahead of you. It is while in residency that you receive multiple job offers. Look, I'm not saying that podiatry hasn't had problems in the past but this is the way it is now. I have yet to meet any resident without multiple job offers (multispecialty groups, ortho groups, hospitals, private practice). Very few even attempt to open up their own practice. In fact, I have yet to see a resident from a three year program take less than a six figure starting salary (except one who went to a fellowship).

My next question is why would anybody be posting questions about this in a clinicians forum? Why would any of these people know???

I'm not trying to "dawg" anyone but a lot has changed in the past decade. I noticed someone referring to one year of surgical training. Three years of surgical training is now the norm. It was also suggested that "podiatry eats its young". But now, because of the huge training discrepancy that exists within the profession between young and old, many suggest that it is the other way around.

The MAJOR problem that I have seen within the profession are the schools. Some of the schools are quite selective while others accept anyone and everyone who applies. The revolving door schools push poor students through irregardless. While the good students do fine and get good residencies and jobs, the poor students get eaten alive. I'm sure that everyone has seen it. In the 90's schools were graduating more students than there were residency slots. OUCH! The profession needs to promise that every student that graduates will receive adequate residency training. That is now the case but as class sizes again begin to increase, I worry.

And don't get me started on the APMA!

 

[jonwill]

Please keep in mind that your experiences at one school are not neccesarily an accurate reflection of the profession.

I get irritated when I here of experiences like these, as it is nothing like what I have seen. Creates a few more people out there with negative attitudes and willing to share them. Unfortunately, (or fortunately - depending on where you sit), it is not the case for all.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[bananaface]

Moving to the podiatry forums for best response

 

[Feli]

...While the good students do fine and get good residencies and jobs, the poor students get eaten alive. I'm sure that everyone has seen it....

...The profession needs to promise that every student that graduates will receive adequate residency training...

I agree some lesser trained or lesser skilled DPMs seem to get eaten alive - particularly if they try to practice in a pod-saturated area right by a school. I've definetly heard from multiple docs that it's dog-eat-dog for podiatry down here in south Florida. Good and well known DPMs might be booked solid for the whole next month since their skill is well known by referring docs, but many DPMs you could probably get an appointment with on the next business because pods are over-saturated around here. I understand the family ties or climate preference, but I still fail to see why so many Barry grads want to do residency and practice right here. It seems to me that the path to success is much easier elsewhere in the US where there is not a DPM factory and many many well-established pod practices in your way. NYC or SoCal seem to be very similar from what I read.

Another problem with the students who slip through the cracks is that not every student who gets a residency keeps/completes it. It's unfortunate, but you can't save someone from themself. Those textbooks and journal articles don't read themselves...

As for number of residencies, it makes to most sense to me to just have COTH match the number of residency spots with the need for new practitioners. That would, in turn, force the schools not to accept/graduate a surplus of DPMs.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

This cracks me up. Of course schools don't help you get a job. You still have 3 years of residency ahead of you. It is while in residency that you receive multiple job offers. Look, I'm not saying that podiatry hasn't had problems in the past but this is the way it is now. I have yet to meet any resident without multiple job offers (multispecialty groups, ortho groups, hospitals, private practice). Very few even attempt to open up their own practice. In fact, I have yet to see a resident from a three year program take less than a six figure starting salary (except one who went to a fellowship).

My next question is why would anybody be posting questions about this in a clinicians forum? Why would any of these people know???

I'm not trying to "dawg" anyone but a lot has changed in the past decade. I noticed someone referring to one year of surgical training. Three years of surgical training is now the norm. It was also suggested that "podiatry eats its young". But now, because of the huge training discrepancy that exists within the profession between young and old, many suggest that it is the other way around.

The MAJOR problem that I have seen within the profession are the schools. Some of the schools are quite selective while others accept anyone and everyone who applies. The revolving door schools push poor students through irregardless. While the good students do fine and get good residencies and jobs, the poor students get eaten alive. I'm sure that everyone has seen it. In the 90's schools were graduating more students than there were residency slots. OUCH! The profession needs to promise that every student that graduates will receive adequate residency training. That is now the case but as class sizes again begin to increase, I worry.

And don't get me started on the APMA!

Proof that all schools are not equal this is blasphemy maybe Jonwill and Feelgood have always been right.

 

[krabmas]

This cracks me up. Of course schools don't help you get a job. You still have 3 years of residency ahead of you. It is while in residency that you receive multiple job offers. Look, I'm not saying that podiatry hasn't had problems in the past but this is the way it is now. I have yet to meet any resident without multiple job offers (multispecialty groups, ortho groups, hospitals, private practice). Very few even attempt to open up their own practice. In fact, I have yet to see a resident from a three year program take less than a six figure starting salary (except one who went to a fellowship).

My next question is why would anybody be posting questions about this in a clinicians forum? Why would any of these people know???

I'm not trying to "dawg" anyone but a lot has changed in the past decade. I noticed someone referring to one year of surgical training. Three years of surgical training is now the norm. It was also suggested that "podiatry eats its young". But now, because of the huge training discrepancy that exists within the profession between young and old, many suggest that it is the other way around.

The MAJOR problem that I have seen within the profession are the schools. Some of the schools are quite selective while others accept anyone and everyone who applies. The revolving door schools push poor students through irregardless. While the good students do fine and get good residencies and jobs, the poor students get eaten alive. I'm sure that everyone has seen it. In the 90's schools were graduating more students than there were residency slots. OUCH! The profession needs to promise that every student that graduates will receive adequate residency training. That is now the case but as class sizes again begin to increase, I worry.

And don't get me started on the APMA!

what is your beef with the APMA?

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I have little confidence in the APMA. I feel that with PPAC they waste money on the dumbest issues. They give themselves credit for very little things.

 

[jonwill]

what is your beef with the APMA?

I guess my beef isn't necessarily with the APMA in general but as I've stated before, I feel that there are too many "leaders" that are more interested in trying to keeping podiatry "the way it was" instead of helping the profession move to the next level. There are too many pods that would rather fight to the death about who is qualified to cut a patients nails instead of fighting to increase the scope of practice to include the ankle in the few remaining states that do not yet include it, or better yet to create a universal scope. I guess this would be a part of that whole "discrepancy in training" thing.

But you're right. I shouldn't, nor am I trying to single out the APMA Leadership in particular because a lot of them have done some very good things. We definitely do have some great leaders within the profession.

 

[krabmas]

I guess my beef isn't necessarily with the APMA in general but as I've stated before, I feel that there are too many "leaders" that are more interested in trying to keeping podiatry "the way it was" instead of helping the profession move to the next level. There are too many pods that would rather fight to the death about who is qualified to cut a patients nails instead of fighting to increase the scope of practice to include the ankle in the few remaining states that do not yet include it, or better yet to create a universal scope. I guess this would be a part of that whole "discrepancy in training" thing.

But you're right. I shouldn't, nor am I trying to single out the APMA Leadership in particular because a lot of them have done some very good things. We definitely do have some great leaders within the profession.

I never said I liked them, just wanted to know what you thought.

In what you said though I think the APMSA mirrors the APMA. It is sad that those will be the leaders of the future too. Many of them seem to be in it for themselves and can't see the forrest from the trees. Politics suck dude.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I guess my beef isn't necessarily with the APMA in general but as I've stated before, I feel that there are too many "leaders" that are more interested in trying to keeping podiatry "the way it was" instead of helping the profession move to the next level. There are too many pods that would rather fight to the death about who is qualified to cut a patients nails instead of fighting to increase the scope of practice to include the ankle in the few remaining states that do not yet include it, or better yet to create a universal scope. I guess this would be a part of that whole "discrepancy in training" thing.

But you're right. I shouldn't, nor am I trying to single out the APMA Leadership in particular because a lot of them have done some very good things. We definitely do have some great leaders within the profession.

I swear you guys are reading my mind today. I just PMed someone the same response. I think that many of the schools and many of the podiatry organizations are stuck on the idea that podiatry should be independent from other medical fields. They are stuck in the days of independent practices. They don't realize the most graduates want to be in hospitals, multi-specialty groups, and ortho groups.

I don't care what people think of DMU and its students but I do think that CPMS was a major revolution in podiatry. I think that is why they are a big dog today. The integration with other medical programs created a new environment for pod students. They saw a way to gain equality and new opportunity to make connections with other professions. That is why other schools have started to change toward the DMU formula in one way or another (2+2 curriculum, integrated classes, ect).

Schools that have not adapted are feeling the pinch today. Schools that are adapting (Scholl and AZPod) are succeeding and those that are standing firm as podiatry schools and not podiatry medical schools are not.

 

[Dr. Gangrene]

I

I don't care what people think of DMU and its students but I do think that CPMS was a major revolution in podiatry. I think that is why they are a big dog today. The integration with other medical programs created a new environment for pod students. They saw a way to gain equality and new opportunity to make connections with other professions. That is why other schools have started to change toward the DMU formula in one way or another (2+2 curriculum, integrated classes, ect).

Schools that have not adapted are feeling the pinch today. Schools that are adapting (Scholl and AZPod) are succeeding and those that are standing firm as podiatry schools and not podiatry medical schools are not.

I couldnt agree more It does not matter what is being talked about. There is no standing still. You are either regressing or progressing. It is nice too see that some in the field are working towards progress and advancement. To me, it is also very exciting to know I can help move the profession ahead

 

[krabmas]

I couldnt agree more It does not matter what is being talked about. There is no standing still. You are either regressing or progressing. It is nice too see that some in the field are working towards progress and advancement. To me, it is also very exciting to know I can help move the profession ahead

don't judge me because I went to a podiatry strapping and padding and nail cutting school.

I will learn to be a real doctor in residency!

 

[krabmas]

Schools that have not adapted are feeling the pinch today.

Ha - you think those schools even realize there is a problem?

It is like the difference between an alchoholic and a drunk. Alcoholics go to meetings a realize there is a problem and admit it and work to fix it. Drunks just keep on drinking saying I'm not an alcoholic.

So using that analogy I'd say the "non-adapted" schools are drunk. They do not even know there is a problem.

You can't fix something that you are unaware is broken.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I don't think this is true. I think they maybe in denile, but they know. Look at the classes, the DMU class is always full (usually filling up very early) with some of the best applicants. I'm sure the same is true with AZPod. I know that Scholl fills a little slower but it usually fills. I have heard Temple has had trouble filling the classes the last few years. I can't comment on the other schools b/c I have not heard how fast or if they fill.

Outcomes continue to be poor at some schools. They try to blame the test and make up lies why other schools are sucessful. But they can see the problem.

This is why I think that see the problem, but they are still paying the bills so they don't care.

 

[krabmas]

I don't think this is true. I think they maybe in denile, but they know. Look at the classes, the DMU class is always full (usually filling up very early) with some of the best applicants. I'm sure the same is true with AZPod. I know that Scholl fills a little slower but it usually fills. I have heard Temple has had trouble filling the classes the last few years. I can't comment on the other schools b/c I have not heard how fast or if they fill.

Outcomes continue to be poor at some schools. They try to blame the test and make up lies why other schools are sucessful. But they can see the problem.

This is why I think that see the problem, but they are still paying the bills so they don't care.

I removed the post

 

[cool_vkb]

hey just of curosity. how did you end up in NYCPM. Are you a NY native?

 

[krabmas]

hey just of curosity. how did you end up in NYCPM. Are you a NY native?

I'll send you a PM

 

[Dr. Gangrene]

don't judge me because I went to a podiatry strapping and padding and nail cutting school.

I will learn to be a real doctor in residency!

I aplogize for any misunderstanding. Not attacking you at all (matter of fact, not even attacking your school).
I have stated in previous posts that I feel ones' education is up to them. Some schools may offer some benefits that help make it easier, but if you have enough drive the knowledge base is the same universally and you can get what you want.

I only meant to imply that evolution in any field is inevitable and it is nice to see people working for it. (Just look at us vs. the monkeys )

Judging from posts of yours that I have seen, you are definetly one of the "leaders" I am referring too that are advancing the field.

P.s. congrats again on inova!

 

[CareBear9984]

Thank heavens the "pod heroes" came to this thread. I seriously consider jonwill, Dr. Feelgood, etc. to be the well-informed students and future successful pods on this forum. As a pre-pod starting in the fall, I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge is limited, but I truly have a respect for this field, I guess I wouldn't be going into it otherwise! Jonwill, you made an excellent point in bringing up the schools - some will let your average joe college in and others are more selective. The point is as many have stated before: you make your schooling and residency experience your own. The hardest workers will get the farthest and will succeed regardless of the so called "crappy limitations" of the podiatry field (be that schools, curriculum, etc.) I'm just glad to have you guys as positive role models. I'll respect, but I won't accept the opinions of people who haven't made it as far as you guys (cause believe me, I'm sure you guys felt the stress from time to time, but that didn't stop you from getting ahead and moving forward). So basically, thanks to all those great pod student advisers out there. I just ignore the other negative stuff that's brought to the table.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Thank heavens the "pod heroes" came to this thread. I seriously consider jonwill, Dr. Feelgood, etc. to be the well-informed students and future successful pods on this forum. As a pre-pod starting in the fall, I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge is limited, but I truly have a respect for this field, I guess I wouldn't be going into it otherwise! Jonwill, you made an excellent point in bringing up the schools - some will let your average joe college in and others are more selective. The point is as many have stated before: you make your schooling and residency experience your own. The hardest workers will get the farthest and will succeed regardless of the so called "crappy limitations" of the podiatry field (be that schools, curriculum, etc.) I'm just glad to have you guys as positive role models. I'll respect, but I won't accept the opinions of people who haven't made it as far as you guys (cause believe me, I'm sure you guys felt the stress from time to time, but that didn't stop you from getting ahead and moving forward). So basically, thanks to all those great pod student advisers out there. I just ignore the other negative stuff that's brought to the table.

Thanks for the post. Jon is a sucker for compliments so you can get a position at DMC later in your career.

 

[CareBear9984]

Sweet! haha

 

[krabmas]

I aplogize for any misunderstanding. Not attacking you at all (matter of fact, not even attacking your school).
I have stated in previous posts that I feel ones' education is up to them. Some schools may offer some benefits that help make it easier, but if you have enough drive the knowledge base is the same universally and you can get what you want.

I only meant to imply that evolution in any field is inevitable and it is nice to see people working for it. (Just look at us vs. the monkeys )

Judging from posts of yours that I have seen, you are definetly one of the "leaders" I am referring too that are advancing the field.

P.s. congrats again on inova!

No offense was taken. I was being sarcastic, I should have emphisized that.

 

[ocwaveoc]

Ok, Fib.

As far as I know (and from my own personal experience), the schools have no way to help you find employment. And, there are no other sources that I'm aware of like recruiters, etc. Frankly, my impression of CCPM was that they were only interested in pilfering my wallet and could care less if I succeeded or not.

I can only tell you what I know from what I went through, what my classmates went through and what I've heard from the grapevine.

If you do a "good" residency (one that has a name) you might be able to hook up as an associate with one of the attendings you work with. Even then, you won't be doing much more than chip and clip and nursing homes (do you think that someone is going to give you their lucrative stuff?).

I have 5 classmates in L.A. who all have at least two years training (at least one year surgical) and they all finished their programs last June. None of them are doing any surgery or working at a legitimate practice. All of them are working in clinics (otherwise known as "mills"...because the object is to see as many patients as possible and bill as much as possible....these are mostly Medicaid and some Medicare) and not making more than 50k. From what I've heard and seen, the majority of residency grads do this kind of thing (me included) and bide their time waiting for a break (to hook up with someone in a real practice).

Bottom line is that there are almost no "jobs" when you finish. It's just the reality. There will be plenty of DPM's, however, who will want to use you as slave labor (to see patients at nasty clinics and go to nursing homes paying you sub-standard wages). And, they will expect you to "push the envelope" when it comes to diagnosing and billing. Again, the reality. Unless you do one of the top residencies you will likely end up doing someone else's dirty work and not get much money for it.

It's not negative. Only what I've seen and experienced.

And, I don't even know exactly how you find these rotten jobs. I got mine because a couple of highly unsrupulous DPM's advertised at my residency and I took the bait. I think the only way that you find employment is by asking a lot of people during your residency. You'll get someone to offer you something along the lines of what I mentioned above.

After that, I don't know where a DPM goes. This is why I've reapplied to DO and MD school. I'm not sure there are too many places to go.

Good luck

Is this true that unless one does a top residency program it's difficult to get a job unless you are willing to get paid 50-60K/yr cutting toe nails at nursing homes even with a surgical residency? I'm sure some who go through surgical residencies do make twice as much. But what is the percentage of grads landing surgival jobs that pay the low 100k ?????

 

[Dr. Gangrene]

No offense was taken. I was being sarcastic, I should have emphisized that.

Cool. I thought you were just being sarcastic, but with words only, it is hard to tell. Thanks for the response.

 

[SportPOD]

So, how do you find jobs after residency?

One word, NETWORK! Keep friends with your classmates and your co-residents. These are the people who can tell you what's going on in the rest of the country, because you're stuck on the other side of the country. Try to get out to a couple of national meetings while a resident (the rates are cheaper!). If you network and meet other people, that's where you will find out where the jobs are. More and more there is a need for podiatrists within a multi-specialty clinic or with an ortho group. Keep an eye posted on job search boards. Also, talk to your attendings and they can tell you what is available out there. After a couple of years of working with your attendings, you'll figure out who you want to work with and who you want to run away from .