I am Carribean Medical Student who finished Basic Sciences

[arindian470]

If you have any questions please feel free to message me!

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[cbrons]

So youre an M3 then?

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

 

[arindian470]

Yes that is correct.

 

[deleted480308]

what percent of your starting class is still there?

 

[Monkey.King]

Why do you choose to go to a Caribbean med school?

How do you feel about your opportunities being severely limited?

If you could start over, would you still choose to go the Carribean route?

Do you think you have a slim chance at matching into a competitive residency?

What school do you go to?

 

[Pagan FutureDoc]

Are you at one of the big 4?

 

[deleted731525]

In b4 "Why are you a piece of ****?"

In all seriousness I am curious about the games they play in regards to who they let sit for step 1.

 

[wolfofparkstreet]

In b4 "Why are you a piece of ****?"

In all seriousness I am curious about the games they play in regards to who they let sit for step 1.

What do you mean by "who they let sit for step 1'?

 

[Law2Doc]

What do you mean by "who they let sit for step 1'?

He means a lot of these offshore schools maintain decent "first time pass rates" by requiring students to meet internal metrics and pass internal tests first before they can even sit for the steps. It's part of the reason the number of students at these schools far exceeds 4x the number of graduating seniors, and why many don't finish in 4 years -- lots get hung up in the middle at some places.

 

[candbgirl]

You didn't know that? How did you do on Step 1? Where are your clinical set up and where? What school do you go to?


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile app

 

[arindian470]

what percent of your starting class is still there?

About 40% of our original class has either repeated a semester or dropped out.

 

[arindian470]

Are you at one of the big 4?

Why do you choose to go to a Caribbean med school?

How do you feel about your opportunities being severely limited?

It has its good and bad. If you really want to be a doctor and you are unable to get into a U.S school your score might be just a little lower then what you need then I would definitely suggest looking into Caribbean schools.

If you could start over, would you still choose to go the Caribbean route?

I have a 2x rule. Apply to U.S schools 2 years in a row, if after 2 years you cannot get in looking to Caribbean schools.

Do you think you have a slim chance at matching into a competitive residency?

Yes I will probably end up matching in IM,FM or PEDS but if you go to the big 4 people have matched everywhere including surgery, ortho, derm. If your scores are high enough it is definitely possible

 

[Law2Doc]

How do you feel about your opportunities being severely limited?

It has its good and bad. If you really want to be a doctor and you are unable to get into a U.S school your score might be just a little lower then what you need then I would definitely suggest looking into Caribbean schools.

If you could start over, would you still choose to go the Caribbean route?

I have a 2x rule. Apply to U.S schools 2 years in a row, if after 2 years you cannot get in looking to Caribbean schools.

Do you think you have a slim chance at matching into a competitive residency?

Yes I will probably end up matching in IM,FM or PEDS but if you go to the big 4 people have matched everywhere including surgery, ortho, derm. If your scores are high enough it is definitely possible

You aren't getting ortho or Derm from an offshore school even if some random guy with connections from your school managed it once. If you want to do an advice thread, it needs to be realistic advice, not blowing smoke. There are younger people reading this that might not be able to gauge when you are wandering further off the deep end. It's a Hail Mary shot just to get any spot, not a realistic path for competitive things.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Are all green book certified rotations at one site? Are there cases of people needing to go to rotations outside the core site (out of state) to fulfill requirements?

 

[IslandStyle808]

You aren't getting ortho or Derm from an offshore school even if some random guy with connections from your school managed it once. If you want to do an advice thread, it needs to be realistic advice, not blowing smoke. There are younger people reading this that might not be able to gauge when you wandering are further off the deep end.

This is correct and I will add to this. These people are extremely lucky and have not only excellent board scores and grades, but have made connections via research fellowships or someone they really know well (could be family member, friend, etc.). This is usually done by students after they have graduated and haven't match the first time. Each year they try to apply from said research fellowship, they decrease their chances of securing a residency. They can be locked out of residency programs all together by playing this game too long.

 

[md-2020]

About 40% of our original class has either repeated a semester or dropped out.

How do you feel about your opportunities being severely limited?

It has its good and bad. If you really want to be a doctor and you are unable to get into a U.S school your score might be just a little lower then what you need then I would definitely suggest looking into Caribbean schools.
If you could start over, would you still choose to go the Caribbean route?
I have a 2x rule. Apply to U.S schools 2 years in a row, if after 2 years you cannot get in looking to Caribbean schools.
Do you think you have a slim chance at matching into a competitive residency?
Yes I will probably end up matching in IM,FM or PEDS but if you go to the big 4 people have matched everywhere including surgery, ortho, derm. If your scores are high enough it is definitely possible

Disregarding the SDN pile on that is bound to happen regarding the last statement, I'm glad that someone in the Carib is willing to share something other than the sponsored and border line religiously propagandized "we have 99% match rate higher than US MD and DO" bullcrap that usually occurs on these boards.

 

[Law2Doc]

Disregarding the SDN pile on that is bound to happen regarding the last statement, I'm glad that someone in the Carib is willing to share something other than the sponsored and border line religiously propagandized "we have 99% match rate higher than US MD and DO" bullcrap that usually occurs on these boards.

Saying you can get any competitive residency from Caribbean is just a different form of propaganda.

 

[deleted480308]

About 40% of our original class has either repeated a semester or dropped out.

 

[md-2020]

Saying you can get any competitive residency from Caribbean is just a different form of propaganda.

That's not what this guy is really saying though. He's saying that it happens, and freely admits that most (including himself) will end up in the less competitive specialties. As wrong as it is to insist upon the competitiveness of Carib grads in the match (a la their schools' propaganda), categorically asserting that they have an absolute zero shot at anything other than FM/IM/Peds/Psych etc (paging any SDN thread) is similarly misleading.

Is the chance very low and sometimes dependent on your own connections/efforts/resume? Yes. Is it absolutely zero from everyone in the Caribbean? No.

 

[Law2Doc]

That's not what this guys is really saying though. He's saying that it happens, and freely admits that most (including himself) will end up in the less competitive specialties. As wrong as it is to insist upon the competitiveness of Carib grads in the match (a la their schools' propaganda), categorically denying that they have any an absolute zero shot at anything other than FM/IM/Peds/Psych etc (paging any SDN thread) is similarly misleading.

Is the chance very low and sometimes dependent on your own connections/efforts/resume? Yes. Is it absolutely zero from everyone in the Caribbean? No.

It might not be absolute zero but given the number of places past the decimal point you'd need to go for the percentage odds, you could comfortably round down to zero.

 

[Sardinia]

It might not be absolute zero but given the number of places past the decimal point you'd need to go for the percentage odds, you could comfortably round down to zero.

Special snowflake syndrome.

 

[md-2020]

It might not be absolute zero but given the number of places past the decimal point you'd need to go for the percentage odds, you could comfortably round down to zero.

I wouldn't say it's that extreme. Take a look at the 2016 NRMP breakdown by specialty/state/location of med school.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Main-Match-Results-by-State-and-Specialty-2016.pdf

A fair number of programs (albeit lesser known/rural ones) are pulling IMG and US IMGs for pretty "desirable" fields. Now in the grand scheme of things these are obviously the minority (I do see the masses of IM/FM/Peds IMGs) but it's not as unheard of as SDN might lead one to believe.

Let me reiterate that I would not recommend the Caribbean to any friends or family though.

 

[Sardinia]

@md-2020 Then stop playing Devil's Advocate.

 

[Sardinia]

@arindian470 What was the class that contributed to the attrition rating in your basic science curriculum? Biochemistry?

 

[coffee-doc]

About 40% of our original class has either repeated a semester or dropped out.

so to the best of your abilities, can you describe this a little further?

Of those in this 40% block, how many do you think actually just couldn't handle the rigor of medical school, and would not take failure as an answer?
And how many of this 40% would you attribute to the way the school is set up?

The second question is a little vague because I don't know the intricacies about the rules at the big 4. But the attrition rate is always repeated here and I want to know if it is because the way the school is set up (rules being not fair, system is set up to only pass a certain number for the extra tuition loans $$$) or if the students honestly couldn't handle it because they don't have the tenacity

 

[coffee-doc]

I understand it's a weird question because you can't predict how the students would do in a different scenario and I assume you're not God

But just use your internal gauge of people to give a ballpark. I'm curious.

 

[deleted480308]

so to the best of your abilities, can you describe this a little further?

Of those in this 40% block, how many do you think actually just couldn't handle the rigor of medical school, and would not take failure as an answer?
And how many of this 40% would you attribute to the way the school is set up?

The second question is a little vague because I don't know the intricacies about the rules at the big 4. But the attrition rate is always repeated here and I want to know if it is because the way the school is set up (rules being not fair, system is set up to only pass a certain number for the extra tuition loans $$$) or if the students honestly couldn't handle it because they don't have the tenacity

but even asking it this way exposes the gambler's dilema of going offshore......everyone assumes they'll be the special snowflake that beats the odds

 

[Goro]

An attrition rate like that for any US DO or MD school would get them shut down and sued by their accreditation bodies.

About 40% of our original class has either repeated a semester or dropped out.

L

 

[coffee-doc]

but even asking it this way exposes the gambler's dilema of going offshore......everyone assumes they'll be the special snowflake that beats the odds

Ehh. This is true. I'm just curious.

I guess my assumption of people weighing pros/cons of each choice and researching before their decisions does not hold up for everyone. But when people's backs are completely against the wall, it's understanding why they would take that gamble

 

[deleted480308]

Ehh. This is true. I'm just curious.

I guess my assumption of people weighing pros/cons of each choice and researching before their decisions does not hold up for everyone. But when people's backs are completely against the wall, it's understanding why they would take that gamble

maybe a foreign student....maybe. Not a US student. That's just being foolhardy at this point

 

[NotASerialKiller]

@md-2020 Then stop playing Devil's Advocate.

Why? You can easily acknowledge that someone once went to a Caribbean school and matched in a competitive residency without implying that it's likely to happen or that it's a good idea. Encouraging people to never state true facts in order to discourage others from going there seems pretty weird. Students should be aware of all the facts (not just CARIBBEAN EVIL STEAL YOUR MONEY) before they make their terrible decisions. People HAVE matched to competitive residencies from the Caribbean, but the OP was pretty upfront about the risks as well.

 

[Sardinia]

Why? You can easily acknowledging that someone once went to a Caribbean school and matched in a competitive residency without implying that it's likely to happen or that it's a good idea. Encouraging people to never state true facts in order to discourage others from going there seems pretty weird. Students should be aware of all the facts (not just CARIBBEAN EVIL STEAL YOUR MONEY) before they make their terrible decisions. People HAVE matched to competitive residencies from the Caribbean, but the OP was pretty upfront about the risks as well.

Except Caribbean students easily misconstrue their rationalization for rational thinking. I would leverage that the majority of residents who placed into very competitive residencies were not using the discussion boards on SDN as reference material for their final decision and had parents or other influential factors for why they thought they had an edge above their competition.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

But when people's backs are completely against the wall, it's understanding why they would take that gamble

Backs may be against the wall for those who can't get in, but better than being smashed into that wall when you fail/drop out due to some ****ty system or can't match with a lot of debt when its all said and done. Not saying its going to happen that way but the chances of it are certainly higher at Carib. schools.

Would I recommend family members? hell no. But lets keep it logical; that doesn't mean it isn't a viable option for those willing to take the chance at the previously outlined risks.

 

[coffee-doc]

Backs mat be against the wall for those who can't get in, but better than being smashed into that wall when you fail/drop out due to some ****ty system or can't match with a lot of debt when its all said and done. Not saying its going to happen that way but the chances of it are certainly higher at Carib. schools.

I see this point being repeated and that's why I'm asking. Is it the system or the student?
I think Caribbean is a terrible decision and had a decently long argument with the parents yesterday because they're advocating me holding a spot there after my unsuccessful DO cycle.

I agree with the not matching and debt, not a good decision. I work closely with a good ACGME pathology department in an awesome area and 80% of the residents are Carib and the other 20% are DO and one from Duke. So it's interesting to see this and other programs as well and just reading the mantra on SDN.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

I see this point being repeated and that's why I'm asking. Is it the system or the student?

I don't think there is a way to quantify that empirically. From a metrics standpoint, US schools are going to be much higher 3.55-6 compared to 3.0 at the big 4 Carib. schools. The students are clearly not of the same caliber as US MD/DO and so you would expect a higher attrition rate, but 40% seems excessive for a half point on GPA.

 

[deleted480308]

I don't think there is a way to quantify that empirically. From a metrics standpoint, US schools are going to be much higher 3.55-6 compared to 3.0 at the big 4 Carib. schools. The students are clearly not of the same caliber as US MD/DO and so you would expect a higher attrition rate, but 40% seems excessive for a half point on GPA.

it's more likely the 7-10pt difference on the old mcat that serves as a better predictor

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

it's more likely the 7-10pt difference on the old mcat that serves as a better predictor

I thought the big 4 were are 26 for MCAT compared to 30-32 for US?

Either way if you were able to factor in the average GPA/MCAT/dropout difference from MD-DO and extrapolate that difference to carib. schools I don't think it would hold a candle to 40% comparatively.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I see this point being repeated and that's why I'm asking. Is it the system or the student?
I think Caribbean is a terrible decision and had a decently long argument with the parents yesterday because they're advocating me holding a spot there after my unsuccessful DO cycle.

I agree with the not matching and debt, not a good decision. I work closely with a good ACGME pathology department in an awesome area and 80% of the residents are Carib and the other 20% are DO and one from Duke. So it's interesting to see this and other programs as well and just reading the mantra on SDN.

It is the system to a large extent. You can say the students they accept are low caliber an this is why they fail out. However, compare similar MCAT averages of caribbean students in Ross and SGU versus DO schools of similar averages such as KYCOM and WVSOM. You will find that attrition at these DO schools is much lower and placement rate is between 98-100%.

You have to understand something about programs in general accepting caribbean students, DO students, and MD students. The extremely high quality programs in attractive cities, will take students in the pecking order of US MD > US DO > Caribbean students (I have a feeling people are going to add arrows between the the US DO and Caribbean students statement). In general, they will use a non-LCME filter to take out US DO and caribbean students from the mix. For example, take a look at the UCSF line up for psychiatry (considered in the psychiatry forums one of the top 5 programs in the country).

http://psych.ucsf.edu/rtp/residents

Almost all of the line up is US MDs and two DO matched into the program in that line up. It gets worse as you look at the other top programs in psychiatry which is not a competitive field, but is currently growing in competition.

 

[Goro]

People have also won the Lotto, but that doesn't mean we should all run out and buy tickets, does it?

Why? You can easily acknowledge that someone once went to a Caribbean school and matched in a competitive residency without implying that it's likely to happen or that it's a good idea. Encouraging people to never state true facts in order to discourage others from going there seems pretty weird. Students should be aware of all the facts (not just CARIBBEAN EVIL STEAL YOUR MONEY) before they make their terrible decisions. People HAVE matched to competitive residencies from the Caribbean, but the OP was pretty upfront about the risks as well.

 

[coffee-doc]

I don't think there is a way to quantify that empirically. From a metrics standpoint, US schools are going to be much higher 3.55-6 compared to 3.0 at the big 4 Carib. schools. The students are clearly not of the same caliber as US MD/DO and so you would expect a higher attrition rate, but 40% seems excessive for a half point on GPA.

I thought that Carib was attracting the 2.5ish GPA students or 3.0 after retakes and SMP drop outs.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

I thought that Carib was attracting the 2.5ish GPA students or 3.0 after retakes and SMP drop outs.

just going off what I read about the big 4. May not be 100% accurate

 

[deleted480308]

I thought the big 4 were are 26 for MCAT compared to 30-32 for US?

Either way if you were able to factor in the average GPA/MCAT/dropout difference from MD-DO and extrapolate that difference to carib. schools I don't think it would hold a candle to 40% comparatively.

I frankly don't trust those schools to hand out honest data

 

[NotASerialKiller]

People have also won the Lotto, but that doesn't mean we should all run out and buy tickets, does it?

Using that analogy, what I'm saying is that to get your friend to not waste their money on lotto tickets you should present them with the statistics. You should not try to stop others from ever saying that someone once won the lottery, that's extremely paternalistic.

Plus there are so many reasons why it's not a good route to pursue that you really don't need to stop people from finding out that someone matched to derm to make your point.

 

[Goro]

When you're dealing with people who indulge too freely in magical thinking to their detriment, a little paternalism is not a bad thing.

Using that analogy, what I'm saying is that to get your friend to not waste their money on lotto tickets you should present them with the statistics. You should not try to stop others from ever saying that someone once won the lottery, that's extremely paternalistic.

Plus there are so many reasons why it's not a good route to pursue that you really don't need to stop people from finding out that someone matched to derm to make your point.

 

[Law2Doc]

I frankly don't trust those schools to hand out honest data

As I have stated elsewhere, US consumer protection acts, "truth in advertising" and US consumer fraud laws don't apply to these schools. They are only beholden to the nations they operate in and many allow a much greater leniency for exaggerated claims and may not enforce such laws at all. So any "data" you see on an offshore website should be regarded with healthy skepticism. As in, it's bogus unless echoed by NRMP or some other legit resource .

 

[mehc012]

I thought that Carib was attracting the 2.5ish GPA students or 3.0 after retakes and SMP drop outs.

Nah. I know someone who had a decent app - bit on the low side stats-wise, I think mainly with low MCAT VR - who got intimidated by the daunting MD admissions game for those without perfect scores and didn't even apply. They applied to a handful of DOs as an afterthought and then the Caribs. Once they got into one of the Big 4, they actually cancelled their DO interviews :O

It was hard to say anything, because they were awesome and super nice, and the decision had already been made (cancelled interviews, gearing up to sign the loans), and because only a handful of the people we were hanging out with understood the difference between carib and on-shore MD prospects. The rest did a cursory google search, believed the published stats without further digging (as did the student), and high-fived them. They had a stronger reaction to DO than to carib MD.

The carib attracts plenty of people. It's designed to. Yes, it's a place people turn when their backs are against the wall, but it also appeals to those with an exhausting hill to surmount for MD admissions, or for those who don't understand the DO system. Those folks just need better information (and, admittedly, the ability to seek it out and the willingness to listen).

 

[alpinism]

Nah. I know someone who had a decent app - bit on the low side stats-wise, I think mainly with low MCAT VR - who got intimidated by the daunting MD admissions game for those without perfect scores and didn't even apply. They applied to a handful of DOs as an afterthought and then the Caribs. Once they got into one of the Big 4, they actually cancelled their DO interviews :O

It was hard to say anything, because they were awesome and super nice, and the decision had already been made (cancelled interviews, gearing up to sign the loans), and because only a handful of the people we were hanging out with understood the difference between carib and on-shore MD prospects. The rest did a cursory google search, believed the published stats without further digging (as did the student), and high-fived them. They had a stronger reaction to DO than to carib MD.

The carib attracts plenty of people. It's designed to. Yes, it's a place people turn when their backs are against the wall, but it also appeals to those with an exhausting hill to surmount for MD admissions, or for those who don't understand the DO system. Those folks just need better information (and, admittedly, the ability to seek it out and the willingness to listen).

What happened to Pidgeot??

 

[arindian470]

You aren't getting ortho or Derm from an offshore school even if some random guy with connections from your school managed it once. If you want to do an advice thread, it needs to be realistic advice, not blowing smoke. There are younger people reading this that might not be able to gauge when you are wandering further off the deep end. It's a Hail Mary shot just to get any spot, not a realistic path for competitive things.

Thats why I mentioned you should apply to U.S medical schools 2 years in a row before even considering Caribbean medical schools. People do get neuro and ortho but yes it's very rare. In a class of 200 maybe 5 people will get competitive spots. 1 in each rotation so 1 ortho 1 derm etc. Those are the realistic stats I'm just saying if you do end up in a Caribbean school it's not the end all be all if you work hard you still have a shot.

 

[arindian470]

This is correct and I will add to this. These people are extremely lucky and have not only excellent board scores and grades, but have made connections via research fellowships or someone they really know well (could be family member, friend, etc.). This is usually done by students after they have graduated and haven't match the first time. Each year they try to apply from said research fellowship, they decrease their chances of securing a residency. They can be locked out of residency programs all together by playing this game too long.

Yes thank you for adding this point!

 

[arindian470]

I want to add that just because you are from the Caribbean doesn't mean that it's the end of the world if you do get through the process you have a pretty good shot of matching in the primary care programs. I know that there are rumors going around they are trying to limit the amount of spots for MD/DO students only and restrict IMG students, I can pretty confidently tell you this will not happen. As you might have heard Primary care is extremely short staffed in the U.S and IMG's have some of the most competitive applications when it comes to USMLE scores. We need IMG's to fill those spots. I've seen Caribbean kids go to the unknown carib schools get average scores and still somehow manage to score a residency in the breadbasket states and/or the inner city. I'm not saying that you should consider this gamble but I am saying no matter what happens don't give up. As mentioned, many students might not match on the first go, those students usually do research or work part time at a hospital they would like to do residency at once they build the right connections, that hospital will usually take them for the match in the next year. In the end, I can tell you for a fact the two things that matter are your usmle scores and your connections to your school everything else is obviously important but these two are what will make you a competitive applicant in the match process.