I can't believe this happened!

[sumstorm]

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Many practices in medicine that used to be commonplace have been abolished because individuals stood up and said that the practices were unacceptable. They found solutions and ways to change veterinary education and veterinary medicine to be more humane. Not too long ago, we euthanized pets by stopping hearts while animals were still conscious, performed surgical procedures in labs with anaesthesia but not analgesics, and broke bones to practice fixing them.

actually, all of these things are still done, depending on the circumstances and situation.

There is plenty of room in this profession, and the treatment of animals in general, for improvement. Why shouldn't we strive for more humane treatment? Why would you laugh at those who would approach it in a kind, compassionate manner? 😕

I do not think anyone was reacting to the idea of humane treatment; they are reacting to the concept that someone who signed up for a lab that USES cadavers finds slaughtering of animals objectionable and labeled it as cruel. A person who didn't even witness how the slaughtering was done, or even what was being slaughtered, decided sight unseen that it must be cruel.

And that, in being a proponent for animal rights, which does have a pretty specific meaning in the veterinary world, the OP is either advocating for something that opposes veterinary medicine, or lacks information on the difference between animal rights and animal welfare.

I do agree that it may have been a bit harsh, but I am absolutly certain that it had nothing to do with laughing at anyone for being kind or compassionate or not valueing those qualitites in vet med. I am also willing to bet that some people reacted as much to the concept of a troll and to someone huffing out of an educational setting rather than discussing the issues with their advisor, the professor, or another mentor, because that seems to lack a maturity necessary for vet school.

 

[sumstorm]

2. I do not believe in using animals for entertainment(like the circus)
....
4. Pets are fine as long as they are things that dont exist in the wild(for the most part) on their own. Your border collie or manx cat would be an example. They dont have a natural habitat or niche. A chimp or slow loris etc. should not be a pet.

So you keep your pets for purposes other than entertainment? What is their purpose, if not to provide us with luxuries like amusement, comfort, companionship, etc? And why put that burden on an animal? Does that mean fish aren't acceptable pets? how about rats and mice?

5. I dont believe in wearing fur. Unless you are an inuit and have no other means of warming yourself. In todays society thats not necessary.

Did you know the crash of the fur industry is endangering the ecology and natural fauna of New Zealand? Is it better to allow invasive species tht serve no other purpose to continue destroying the environment, or to use them for what they can provide; a pelt? I assume from what you are saying, straight culling is better, or death from starvation, or abandoning other species to extinction as the trees are stripped? I am not a huge fan of fur, but I also do not find all fur objectionable.

9. I also dont believe in terminal surgeries in vet schools on otherwise healthy animals. If it is an animal that is going to die anyway to do something else then thats different.

what if it is an animal that will be destroyed anyways because the research protocols will not allow additional research to occur on that animal and will not allow adoption out? this is the source for some of our animals. I actually participated in terminal surgery. Horrible villian that I am; we used rabbits at the end of another research project, and their use was approve with this termination in mind. We learned to intubate (which isn't easy in rabbits) while they were under anesthesia, then euthanized rather than recovered. I believe that fits the definition of terminal surgery. These animals would have been euthanized even if we did not use them for the procedure. I don't understand what was so wrong with learning this skill before the euthanasia. Also, I assume by this theory cadavers are also a problem, even though many are sourced from animals that would be otherwise destroyed.

It really saddens me to see that so many on these boards are so closed minded about this topic. Not everything has to be black and white and just because an individual respects life they do not need to be chastised and told that they are "unfit" for the profession. I probably would not have dropped the lab but i know that seeing ANY healthy animal killed(especially in a graphic manner) disturbs me. As a vet I would be prepared to see sick animals die/humanely euthanized and I would be prepared to see animals die due to accidents(working at a clinic I have seen many hunting dogs the victim of gunshots) But watching a healthy animal die do to intentional human actions, as an animals lover, is always disturbing and not a situation I would want to be in.

But this individual DIDN'T see ANY animal killed. I don't understand how tht can be an issue if it didn't occur? I also don't understand how anyone who lives anything beyond a subsistence life can judge others for the death of healthy animals due to intentional human actions. I am sure the building of my home killed animals (though it was built before I was born), and that I kill healthy insects every time I drive, and every time another road is built, or the plant that made the car was constructed. I know that just by eating food, even crops, I participate in the diplacement of animals from farmland, many of which will die. Sure seems like intetional human actions to relie on crop agriculture.

I believe we have a responsibility to the animals in our world, but no one that I know of has clean hands in the 'do no harm' department in reference to all animals, and we all have to decide where to draw the line, but still realize that we are contradictory even in those beliefs.

 

[168135]

I have to say that I'm really surprised by some of the reactions to this post. I think that zuneski has some valid points and I would feel similar to him/her about having to take a class in a slaughterhouse.

It does worry me that future veterinarians are laughing at this subject. I can understand that some are not interested in animal rights, but surely you should have some professionalism on the matter and take others opinions into consideration.

I agree.

Half, if not more, of our province's pre-vet students go to Nova Scotia Agriculture College, which has cows, sheep, chicken, and mink on campus. I went there for orientation and was uncomfortable being in an environment where I know that all male cows that are born are shipped off for veal and that mink were slaughtered for their fur. I was also uncomfortable with some of the projects that honours students were taking... one of them was along the lines of if you give a mink a soft place to sleep, the rate of it getting sick and dying before slaughter is lower. That did partially effect my decision on where I was going to attend... there were some other issues like how well the school was with my admissions, location of the school, attitudes of the people I've met... stuff like that.

If it is something that you aren't comfortable doing, talk to your professor. I was supposed to dissect a fetal pig, sheep eye, worm and grasshopper in one of my intro bio classes. I didn't have to do it. My lab professor told me where the animals had come from. She didn't really agree with it. Also, one of her children is a vegetarian so she understands why I'm uncomfortable.

I don't agree with the mass-raised, factory farm view... if I had to witness that, yes I'd be uncomfortable. The jokes would make me uncomfortable as well... it's frightening... showing no remorse or compassion towards what they're seeing 😛 You heard them say that kids who harm or kill animals and show no remorse, grow up to be serial killers? That's what that attitude kind of reminds me of. I can't help it.

That's my opinion, and it's all I'm going to say on the subject. Good luck with what you decide 🙂

 

[twelvetigers]

The jokes would make me uncomfortable as well... it's frightening... showing no remorse or compassion towards what they're seeing 😛 You heard them say that kids who harm or kill animals and show no remorse, grow up to be serial killers? That's what that attitude kind of reminds me of. I can't help it.

Like someone else said, the joking was probably more of a coping mechanism than anything else. It very well may have been in poor taste, but to say that the kids that were joking have no compassion whatsoever towards animals would definitely be a bit of a leap.

Also, the serial killer thing... that's way left field. Strangling puppies as a child and making a crack about the slaughter process as a college student are two very different things, obviously. I'm just not sure how these things are even remotely equivocal... even in a "reminds me of" sort of way.

Some of these responses have been harsh, but the original poster was in severe need of a reality check. S/he has a right to believe whatever, but thinking that this would not be a recurring theme in veterinary medicine... and assuming that we (and the adcoms at vet schools) would all commiserate with him/her 100%... that's just not how it is.

Original poster, you should not take this as a personal attack - just take it as, like I said, a reality check. Some of us can be very... opinionated... and very blunt with those opinions. However, we are (by and large) capable of having good conversation and/or debate on topics that interest us. Feel free to support your opinions here, or to post in the future. Not all topics get us this worked up. 🙂

 

[sumstorm]

Like someone else said, the joking was probably more of a coping mechanism than anything else. It very well may have been in poor taste, but to say that the kids that were joking have no compassion whatsoever towards animals would definitely be a bit of a leap.

Apparently most of our class lacks compassion or are innate serial killers; I don't know of anyone who, by the end of a long semester and 3 weeks of daily (including weekends) worship of the sacrificial creatures in the anatomy lab doesn't crack jokes that are, at times, rather morbid.

 

[Whyevernot55]

Apparently most of our class lacks compassion or are innate serial killers; I don't know of anyone who, by the end of a long semester and 3 weeks of daily (including weekends) worship of the sacrificial creatures in the anatomy lab doesn't crack jokes that are, at times, rather morbid.

So. True. We do the same thing at the SA clinic with euthanasias. ESPECIALLY ones we have to submit for rabies testing, because really, how else are you going to deal with doing a decap.

 

[ADM1220]

sumstorm: just wanted to say that i thoroughly enjoyed your responses. thank you!

btw, i am a vegetarian who wants to go into food animal med. im actually in the process of getting an internship at an evil, nasty, god-forsaken slaughterhouse. 😉 i figured this would really help to verify that i am making the right decision, and also show vet schools i am serious about my career path.

 

[DickVetPlease]

Original poster, you should not take this as a personal attack - just take it as, like I said, a reality check. Some of us can be very... opinionated... and very blunt with those opinions. However, we are (by and large) capable of having good conversation and/or debate on topics that interest us. Feel free to support your opinions here, or to post in the future. Not all topics get us this worked up. 🙂

It was a good attempt, but i'm pretty sure yall scared this one away for good 😉

 

[twelvetigers]

Oh, probably. Lol.

 

[snapcall]

Am I the only one who thinks that the OP has to be a troll? I really have a hard time believing that anyone would actually contact the schools they applied to and say they're an AR supporter.

 

[cowgirla]

Am I the only one who thinks that the OP has to be a troll? I really have a hard time believing that anyone would actually contact the schools they applied to and say they're an AR supporter.

I tend to agree.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't A&P a required prereq at a lot of schools?
I wish I could have called up last year and said "I disagree with harming bacteria and raising them purely for my selfish motives, therefore, I'm not going to take microbio, but you should let me in anyway"

 

[sumstorm]

The OP posted before on a different thread. I think they just haven't had a lot of exposure to the field/vocab/terminology/etc. That is just my take. As far as I know A&P isn't required at a lot of schools. I didn't take it (I would have, except I had A&P in HS with access to a med schools cadaver lab...we didn't get to dissect, but we got to poke and prod.)

 

[Myotis]

All I'm going to say is that the whole animal rights/animal welfare thing is something that MANY people get confused about, and while, as prospective vet students, we should all know and understand the differences, not everyone does, and people are more receptive to being educated when they're not being told that they are ignorant and stupid. I do agree that the OP should reevaluate whether being a vet is the right choice, but she was clearly already upset and was probably hurt by some of the responses, not that I don't agree with many of them, I'm just sayin...no one likes to be laughed at.

 

[zuneski]

The overall response I have gotten from this thread has been really disappointing, to say the least. Just to clear a few things up...

I did not contact the vet schools I applied to about dropping this lab. I contacted them about a year ago about how they dealt with animals we would be "practicing" on, and how they were obtained. This issue has been on my mind long before I applied to the vet schools.

I have been a vet assistant. I have assisted during euthanasias, and I've come in contact with owners treating their animals cruelly. I have been able to handle these situations maturely and professionally. I have almost 2,000 hours working in animal clinics. I'm not completely oblivious to the ethical/moral issues I may face in this career.

I did not just run out of the lab after I got upset. I went back to my professor in my classroom and spoke with her about how I felt.

I have dissected animals in previous labs. With this lab, I already knew that the animals were slaughtered. It makes a big difference to me, however, that the slaughtering occurred on university grounds by university workers. I had no idea that this was the norm for many universities.

With that said, I probably should have referred to myself an animal welfare supporter, rather than an animal rights supporter.

Angelus9, you sound incredibly obnoxious and immature and there is no need to disrespect anyone simply because they have a different opinion than you. If you treat people in person the way you treat people on this board, then you will NOT have a successful career. YOU need to learn how to handle YOURself maturely when you come in contact with people who do not share your views. You accuse AR supporters of being close-minded, you seem like the most closed-minded out of everyone here! And don’t judge me…you have no idea what I have done or what I intend to do about this. I won’t even go into that because I’m sure you’ll find something else to judge me about. You also have no right to generalize AR advocates because not everyone is an extremist like those you have referred to.

Thank you for all of the supportive/helpful posts (Teach2Vet, Willowhand, JCG621, Ninnerfish, CSU, peachy, sumstorm,...). I agree that I need to inform myself more about my association with the food animal industry as a vet. I really took your posts to heart, thank you. It is great to know that there are like-minded people out there (even if we are the minority). Animals need more vets like you all. You all will be wonderful vets!

 

[zuneski]

And just to let you all know, you have not scared me away. None of you will EVER convince me that my beliefs are wrong. I will always consider animal slaughter to be cruel, because it’s unnecessary and we don’t need to eat meat to survive. I have a right to my opinion just like the rest of you, and that does not make me unintelligent or misinformed. It’s okay if you disagree with me, but it doesn’t mean you have to attack me and handle this so immaturely. I have compassion for animals and I think most of you should have more of that. I think the matter here is that I just need to keep things in perspective and direct my emotions towards something that can help animals. I still fully intend to pursue this career.

 

[JCG621]

The overall response I have gotten from this thread has been really disappointing, to say the least. Just to clear a few things up...

I did not contact the vet schools I applied to about dropping this lab. I contacted them about a year ago about how they dealt with animals we would be "practicing" on, and how they were obtained. This issue has been on my mind long before I applied to the vet schools.

I have been a vet assistant. I have assisted during euthanasias, and I've come in contact with owners treating their animals cruelly. I have been able to handle these situations maturely and professionally. I have almost 2,000 hours working in animal clinics. I'm not completely oblivious to the ethical/moral issues I may face in this career.


I did not just run out of the lab after I got upset. I went back to my professor in my classroom and spoke with her about how I felt.

I have dissected animals in previous labs. With this lab, I already knew that the animals were slaughtered. It makes a big difference to me, however, that the slaughtering occurred on university grounds by university workers. I had no idea that this was the norm for many universities.

With that said, I probably should have referred to myself an animal welfare supporter, rather than an animal rights supporter.

Angelus9, you sound incredibly obnoxious and immature and there is no need to disrespect anyone simply because they have a different opinion than you. If you treat people in person the way you treat people on this board, then you will NOT have a successful career. YOU need to learn how to handle YOURself maturely when you come in contact with people who do not share your views. You accuse AR supporters of being close-minded, you seem like the most closed-minded out of everyone here! And don’t judge me…you have no idea what I have done or what I intend to do about this. I won’t even go into that because I’m sure you’ll find something else to judge me about. You also have no right to generalize AR advocates because not everyone is an extremist like those you have referred to.

Thank you for all of the supportive/helpful posts (Teach2Vet, Willowhand, JCG621, Ninnerfish, CSU, peachy, sumstorm,...). I agree that I need to inform myself more about my association with the food animal industry as a vet. I really took your posts to heart, thank you. It is great to know that there are like-minded people out there (even if we are the minority). Animals need more vets like you all. You all will be wonderful vets!

Zuneski,

I am happy that you found at least some of the posts helpful. In regards to slaughterhouses on campuses, I am fairly sure that most land grant universities that are host to animal science programs have on campus slaughter facilities or at least access to them. This is what I have experienced from the universities I have attended (Virginia Tech & University of Kentucky) and also what I saw when I visited Oklahoma State and Texas A&M. It is my opinion that these facilities are there so that students may learn the proper way to humanely slaughter animals for consumption and it is my experience that those who are involved have the upmost respect for the animals that they process.

In regards to animal slaughter as cruelty, I will have to agree to disagree with you. Animals are an important source of nutrition for most people around the world. They are also a unique nutrition source because they are able to supply most of the essential amino acids needed by humans. Any reputable animal producer cares immensely for the animals they raise and are proud of the products they provide.

I definitely encourage you to explore more about the food animal industry. Most individuals involved are extremely nice and will be more than happy to help you out.

Good Luck! 🙂

 

[eventualeventer]

The overall response I have gotten from this thread has been really disappointing, to say the least. Just to clear a few things up...

I did not contact the vet schools I applied to about dropping this lab. I contacted them about a year ago about how they dealt with animals we would be "practicing" on, and how they were obtained. This issue has been on my mind long before I applied to the vet schools.

I have been a vet assistant. I have assisted during euthanasias, and I've come in contact with owners treating their animals cruelly. I have been able to handle these situations maturely and professionally. I have almost 2,000 hours working in animal clinics. I'm not completely oblivious to the ethical/moral issues I may face in this career.

I did not just run out of the lab after I got upset. I went back to my professor in my classroom and spoke with her about how I felt.

I have dissected animals in previous labs. With this lab, I already knew that the animals were slaughtered. It makes a big difference to me, however, that the slaughtering occurred on university grounds by university workers. I had no idea that this was the norm for many universities.

Out of curiosity, why does it bother you that the university slaughters animals? If you agree that food animal slaughter and processing is something that students involved in the industry (whether directly or peripherally) should be exposed to, would you rather they go tour a private slaughterhouse? Is it the question of funding that bothers you? The slaughterhouse may or may not be subsidized by the university. If this is a publicly funded university, every nitty gritty detail of the budget is out there for you, the tax-payer, to scrutinize, although it may take some looking around.

I don't know the extent to which this applies to the slaughterhouses, but, if anything, the oversight at universities with regards to animal care is MUCH stricter than anything you'll see in private practice or industry. Any program, lab, or class wishing to use live animals for teaching or research purposes must submit extensive, detailed protocols to an Animal Care and Use Committee (ACUC) made up of vets and researchers who are not involved in the project. The ACUC must approve the protocol and any changes to the protocol before any animals can be acquired or used.

 

[HopefulAg]

Out of curiosity, why does it bother you that the university slaughters animals? If you agree that food animal slaughter and processing is something that students involved in the industry (whether directly or peripherally) should be exposed to, would you rather they go tour a private slaughterhouse? Is it the question of funding that bothers you? The slaughterhouse may or may not be subsidized by the university.

She thinks we shouldn't eat meat.

 

[zeebra44]

*sigh* 🙁 This thread just makes me sad. I wish ALL people were properly informed about the food animal industry. It's not as "cruel" as you've been lead to believe, and I suggest reading Temple Grandin's books. Instead of ignoring an entire field of veterinary medicine because you disagree with slaughter, why not try to make a positive impact? These animals deserve proper veterinary care! I am going to make it a point within my career to work in a rural area.

 

[gilch]

The overall response I have gotten from this thread has been really disappointing, to say the least. Just to clear a few things up...

This issue has been on my mind long before I applied to the vet schools.

I have been a vet assistant. I have assisted during euthanasias, and I've come in contact with owners treating their animals cruelly. I have been able to handle these situations maturely and professionally. I have almost 2,000 hours working in animal clinics. I'm not completely oblivious to the ethical/moral issues I may face in this career.

I did not just run out of the lab after I got upset. I went back to my professor in my classroom and spoke with her about how I felt.

I have dissected animals in previous labs. With this lab, I already knew that the animals were slaughtered. It makes a big difference to me, however, that the slaughtering occurred on university grounds by university workers. I had no idea that this was the norm for many universities.

With that said, I probably should have referred to myself an animal welfare supporter, rather than an animal rights supporter.

I'm sorry that you received a disappointing response--I think you touched a nerve with many of us, especially the AR aspect. I think going and talking to the professor first was a good idea and dropping the lab with that in mind seems less impulsive and immature. I know I too would have had difficulty concentrating in such a lab, at the very least, knowing that animals were being slaughtered right down the hall (esp if I was not expecting it...)

Animal slaughter/modern food production is a difficult topic for many of us. I want to work as a food animal vet and there are parts of the industry that I have problems with as well. I would agree with some others here who suggested more exposure to livestock industry would be helpful to you. Also, from this post and posts in previous threads, it is clear that you have had some experience in the vet field.

Good for you for responding and I hope we haven't scared you off too badly; SDN is a great resource. This community (the forum and vet profession) could use a little diversity. Hope to see more posts from you in the future. Usually it does not get this explosive.

 

[snapcall]

The overall response I have gotten from this thread has been really disappointing, to say the least. Just to clear a few things up...

I did not contact the vet schools I applied to about dropping this lab. I contacted them about a year ago about how they dealt with animals we would be "practicing" on, and how they were obtained. This issue has been on my mind long before I applied to the vet schools.

Ok, that makes more sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

I have been a vet assistant. I have assisted during euthanasias, and I've come in contact with owners treating their animals cruelly. I have been able to handle these situations maturely and professionally. I have almost 2,000 hours working in animal clinics. I'm not completely oblivious to the ethical/moral issues I may face in this career.

I did not just run out of the lab after I got upset. I went back to my professor in my classroom and spoke with her about how I felt.

I have dissected animals in previous labs. With this lab, I already knew that the animals were slaughtered. It makes a big difference to me, however, that the slaughtering occurred on university grounds by university workers. I had no idea that this was the norm for many universities.

Ok, but I'm curious as to why this is such a huge deal. What difference does it make if the animal is slaughtered on university grounds or shipped in from some other (presumably very similar) facility?

With that said, I probably should have referred to myself an animal welfare supporter, rather than an animal rights supporter.

Yes. Unless, of course, you actually do identify with AR. From your posts, it's still not totally clear where you stand (imo).

 

[BlacKAT33]

I think this whole thread was full of miscommunication. I dont think anyone on here (including myself) was trying to be rude or judge. the information from your first post was completely different than your later posts. especially with the animal rights vs welfare standpoint. there was also a point where i think most people assumed you were just a troll trying to spark something (happens a lot around here). So whenever i read a post that just seems too ridiculous to be tru i kind of just laugh it off because i am tired of fighting with trolls for no reason (Brodiatrist especially). Now that we have more background info it makes more sense. although i dont agree with everything u stated i realize there were huge assumptions made by everyone else and miscommunication based on lack of additional info while people discussed on their own, sry.

 

[sumstorm]

It makes a big difference to me, however, that the slaughtering occurred on university grounds by university workers.

I don't understnad why it is a big difference that it is done by university staff on university grounds? I always felt that it was far better to have the 'dirty work' done in house where it can be monitored and observed than to have it sent away to workers who may be underpaid, underrepresented, and at risk by the process they are involved in, because worker in those situations have little reason to worry about the welfare of the animal, considering their own welfare is at risk (pneumonia caused by environment/chemicals, repetitive stress injuries, fall and equipment injury risks, pathogen risks, etc.) At least in an educational environment, most FT staff have access to health insurance, injury reporting, and safe environments.

With that said, I probably should have referred to myself an animal welfare supporter, rather than an animal rights supporter.

You also have no right to generalize AR advocates because not everyone is an extremist like those you have referred to.

Whether you, I, or any deity that exists agrees, AR means very specific things in vet med. Part of any career, no matter what the field, is learning the jargon and applying it appropriatly. If you are in the vet med field (as you stated you are) then you do need to know that AR does, by the jargon of this field, refer to extremists. This isn't just an opinion, it is based on the rhetoric of animal rights groups. The reasons animal welfare advocates have distinguished themselves from AR groups is BECAUSE of the standards and behavior of AR groups.

Personally, I don't care if you are vegetarian; that may make slaughter valueless to you, but if you take the stance that you are morally superior because you don't use animals for food and thus slaughter is inherently cruel, expect others to react poorly. I have yet to meet anyone who hasn't displaced animals to live the way we want to.... nor have I ever met anyone who refuses life saving drugs because animals were used as resources. If you do either of those, by your own standards, you are being inherently cruel, because it isn't necessary, just as eating meat isn't necessary. So, I believe you have the right to your views as do othes; I think condemning others opens you up for condemnation...and that happened pretty extensively n this thread.

 

[luplodw]

Anyone realize how humanely we put down food animals compared to in nature? We are meant to eat meat just like a tiger...yet all other carnivores/omnivores kill their prey pretty ferociously! So I don't see anything wrong with it!

 

[sumstorm]

Anyone realize how humanely we put down food animals compared to in nature? We are meant to eat meat just like a tiger...yet all other carnivores/omnivores kill their prey pretty ferociously! So I don't see anything wrong with it!

Having slaughtered directly, and having been to quite a few processing plants, I can honestly say that the actual slaughter isn't generally what troubles me about food animal industry. What troubles me is the injuries that arise while getting animals to slaughter and the conditions animals are raised in. I have no issues with eating meat; I just prefer food I can go and see on the hoof/foot to see if I personally agree with the conditions and treatment.

 

[Myotis]

Anyone realize how humanely we put down food animals compared to in nature? We are meant to eat meat just like a tiger...yet all other carnivores/omnivores kill their prey pretty ferociously! So I don't see anything wrong with it!

I agree, for the most part, but the difference that many people argue is that tigers NEED meat to survive. Humans, on the other hand, can survive without. From what I have been told by many vegetarians, it's the idea that we shouldn't kill animals when we don't NEED them to survive. And while some would argue (including myself) that a diet with some meat is more well rounded and healthy diet, we can, in fact, survive without meat.

 

[luplodw]

Having slaughtered directly, and having been to quite a few processing plants, I can honestly say that the actual slaughter isn't generally what troubles me about food animal industry. What troubles me is the injuries that arise while getting animals to slaughter and the conditions animals are raised in. I have no issues with eating meat; I just prefer food I can go and see on the hoof/foot to see if I personally agree with the conditions and treatment.

I agree

 

[Minnerbelle]

*sigh* 🙁 This thread just makes me sad. I wish ALL people were properly informed about the food animal industry. It's not as "cruel" as you've been lead to believe, and I suggest reading Temple Grandin's books.

Thanks for posting that! I just found her website and it is just really eye-opening. I'm one of those people who have always lived in urban/sub-urban areas and have never seen food animal production first hand. The only large animal I've had contact with were the ones in a sanctuary. So as with most liberal hippies in california, I was converted in high school from thinking that meat comes from bucolic farms to "boo... hisss! factory farming is evil and veganism is the way to go!" (though I wasn't hardcore enough to ever go vegan).

I just kind of went along with the pesco-vegetarian thing (sorry fishies... but not as much love for you guys) for about 5-6 years, which kind of made my health deteriorate because I'm one of those super unhealthy vegetarians. But after dealing with many MANY crazy animal rights activists, and realizing how uninformed they were about many issues I really began to question everything I've been told about food production.

Of course every source I tried to look into seemed super biased to me, and I've been confused about what exactly I should believe. I would have loved to have actually visited a food processing plant, but haven't had the chance to... so I've been in this questioning phase for a while. I figured, I would find out one way or the other once I'm in vet school. If I don't like it, then I don't have to go into food production. Just because I don't agree with modern food production ethics doesn't mean I wouldn't make a great shelter vet, right? But I don't think i would ever regret learning about food animal ethics and/or exactly where we are in practice. I just don't want to be someone who goes around telling people how awful factory farms are in the animal welfare realm, when I haven't even observed or learned about it properly.

P.S. to the OP: as others have said, don't judge people too harshly about how they joke when they're in a situation like that. i've worked in a moderate sized open shelter (7000+ animals/yr) where lots of animals are euthanized during the busy seasons... and you have no idea what kinds of awful jokes we make there. the people making those jokes (myself included... though i tend to err on the pc side of things) are probably the most compassionate people you will meet on the face of this earth. seriously, you would get nowhere if all we did was sulk about the number of animals we were putting down and wept for each and every animal.

 

[Pouches Rock]

I think we all have boundaries that we are most comfortable operating within, but it is important for our careers that we learn/experience applicable information/situations. I agree with a previous poster that if you wanted to see the most humane slaughter it would be at university where there are very strict animal care protocols.

I think it is important to realize that slaughter doesn't equal cruel at least not as a general rule. In fact I haven't seen anything in the posts that indicated you knew what the procedure in questions were. I can only assume that you mean that the taking of an animal's life is cruel. I think that perhaps this means that from your perspective if you were to kill an animal 'just' to eat than you would have to be in a very cruel/dark frame of mind to accomplish the task. That is your boundary but you cannot superimpose these perceptions on other people. These people are not cruel or morally corrupt they just don't have the same boundaries. They are NOT thinking I get to hurt an animal and take its life away.

I can understand the difficulty you may have in coming to terms with this concept, I went through a similar issue when I was younger. I couldn't understand why people that I thought were wonderful hunted. It didn't make any sense to me...we can get meat from the store why would someone want to be the person that kills the animal? I found this difficult because personally I wasn't comfortable killing an animal for that reason. Are there situation's in which I think it is okay to kill an animal...yes and I have. Personally, I have many frogs who may be waiting on the other side I have also dissected many different types of animals who had to be sacrificed for me to get them. So I am personally comfortable using animals for research and teaching.

I have walked by my university slaughterhouse and the noise is disconcerting but it is part of the industry.

Do I think that my optimal learning environment includes screaming pigs that are in the process of being slaughtered .....no.

This doesn't mean that I would drop a course that is important to my career development.

Animal use is important to research, teaching, food, and society...and the best that we can do is be informed and assist with keeping/improving animal welfare whenever possible.

I am still not sure if you realize the connotations that are associated with the term animal rights and I hope that you will do some research on the subject before you have any interviews.


PS I would like to add a disclaimer that I am not saying hunting is wrong or that I would like to debate about hunting...for me its just not something I want to do.

 

[luplodw]

I agree, for the most part, but the difference that many people argue is that tigers NEED meat to survive. Humans, on the other hand, can survive without. From what I have been told by many vegetarians, it's the idea that we shouldn't kill animals when we don't NEED them to survive. And while some would argue (including myself) that a diet with some meat is more well rounded and healthy diet, we can, in fact, survive without meat.

Tigers NEED meat as much as we do. If we provided the nutrition they need through different mediums (providing the right amount of protein etc.) they could easily survive without meat. Nothing wrong with eating meat, because we were meant to eat meat

 

[david594]

Tigers NEED meat as much as we do. If we provided the nutrition they need through different mediums (providing the right amount of protein etc.) they could easily survive without meat. Nothing wrong with eating meat, because we were meant to eat meat

Bad example as cats actually do need meat. The issue is not the amount of protein. Its lack of certain amino acids only found in meat, and without it you get heart failure and death.

 

[gilch]

Tigers NEED meat as much as we do. If we provided the nutrition they need through different mediums (providing the right amount of protein etc.) they could easily survive without meat. Nothing wrong with eating meat, because we were meant to eat meat

Really? I don't know anything about tiger nutrition, but I had always thought that cats as a whole were obligate carnivores and had an essential amino acid or 2 more than the rest of us. So a complete protein diet for a human can be plant based but cats need protein with, I think, taurine and arginine. Taurine is not found in plants, and arginine is only found in select ones, I believe. I guess that you could feed a cat with a vegan diet with AA supplements from microbes (maybe?).

NOT trying to start something here! Sincerely do not know 🙂.

 

[nyanko]

The overall response I have gotten from this thread has been really disappointing, to say the least. Just to clear a few things up...

With that said, I probably should have referred to myself an animal welfare supporter, rather than an animal rights supporter.

🙄 Nice backpedaling here. You misrepresented your viewpoint in your original post and the tone of it is absolutely nothing like this most recent post.

I'm sure as hell not falling over myself to apologize to you for reacting to your own misrepresentation and how you made yourself look in your original post. Especially when you take an attitude like this, where you get high and mighty about it after the fact. Get over yourself. You deserved every word of snark you got.

 

[Myotis]

I think we all have boundaries that we are most comfortable operating within, but it is important for our careers that we learn/experience applicable information/situations. I agree with a previous poster that if you wanted to see the most humane slaughter it would be at university where there are very strict animal care protocols.

I think it is important to realize that slaughter doesn't equal cruel at least not as a general rule. In fact I haven't seen anything in the posts that indicated you knew what the procedure in questions were. I can only assume that you mean that the taking of an animal's life is cruel. I think that perhaps this means that from your perspective if you were to kill an animal 'just' to eat than you would have to be in a very cruel/dark frame of mind to accomplish the task. That is your boundary but you cannot superimpose these perceptions on other people. These people are not cruel or morally corrupt they just don't have the same boundaries. They are NOT thinking I get to hurt an animal and take its life away.

I can understand the difficulty you may have in coming to terms with this concept, I went through a similar issue when I was younger. I couldn't understand why people that I thought were wonderful hunted. It didn't make any sense to me...we can get meat from the store why would someone want to be the person that kills the animal? I found this difficult because personally I wasn't comfortable killing an animal for that reason. Are there situation's in which I think it is okay to kill an animal...yes and I have. Personally, I have many frogs who may be waiting on the other side I have also dissected many different types of animals who had to be sacrificed for me to get them. So I am personally comfortable using animals for research and teaching.

I have walked by my university slaughterhouse and the noise is disconcerting but it is part of the industry.

Do I think that my optimal learning environment includes screaming pigs that are in the process of being slaughtered .....no.

This doesn't mean that I would drop a course that is important to my career development.

Animal use is important to research, teaching, food, and society...and the best that we can do is be informed and assist with keeping/improving animal welfare whenever possible.

I am still not sure if you realize the connotations that are associated with the term animal rights and I hope that you will do some research on the subject before you have any interviews.


PS I would like to add a disclaimer that I am not saying hunting is wrong or that I would like to debate about hunting...for me its just not something I want to do.

I completely agree about not wanting to hunt personally, but I'd rather eat an animal that lived in the wild and had a fair shot at life rather than an animal raised in filth purely for slaughter. Not to mention the fact wild game is usually a lot healthier. I just want to know where my food is coming from.

 

[Angelus9]

I probably should have referred to myself an animal welfare supporter, rather than an animal rights supporter.

There you go.

Angelus9, you sound incredibly obnoxious and immature and there is no need to disrespect anyone simply because they have a different opinion than you.

It's not that you have "a different opinion" than I. It's that you came on here stating that you support terrorist, pet-banning, fire-bombing agendas, which is exactly what you're doing by supporting AR. The fact that you now know the difference between AW and AR and have changed your view accordingly means I have no apology to make. You learned a great deal from this thread. I didn't "disrespect" you - I told you the truth.

The fact that you came on here and stated yourself to be supportive of terrorists who are working very, very hard in this country (and around the world) to eliminate all pets and all animal use, thereby destroying your desired career btw, that you didn't even know this, that the quotes I sent you I found in TWO SECONDS on Google and you obviously never even bothered to educate yourself about agendas to which you give support - you got an earful of exactly what you deserved.

As many on this thread have said, we KNOW what the AR agenda is. You did not. No apologies from me ever when it comes to defending animals from ARs, any time, any place.

You also have no right to generalize AR advocates because not everyone is an extremist like those you have referred to.[/COLOR]

I have the right to tell a self-proclaimed AR advocate, which was YOU, dear, that you are supporting some very evil people who are using your naivete to further their own anti-animal agenda. Saying "I'm AR but I'm not anti-pet" is like saying I'm KKK but I'm not a racist." It won't work. Good people need to speak up on the reality of the AR issue, every time, every place. btw, how do you feel about bestiality? That's a resounding YES in the Peter Singer AR agenda.

I agree that I need to inform myself more about my association with the food animal industry as a vet. .

Wonderful.

 

[rileyroo]

I will always consider animal slaughter to be cruel, because it's unnecessary and we don't need to eat meat to survive.

let's hope you go to a vet school that doesn't require you to do a LA rotation. if you haven't done so already, you might want to check those schools you applied to and make sure they don't...b/c although you are entitled to your opinions as everyone else is...this opinion will not go over well with people working in LA.


ETA: LA = large animal (since the jargon post was mentioned, just wanted to clarify)

 

[sunshinevet]

If it is something that you aren't comfortable doing, talk to your professor. I was supposed to dissect a fetal pig, sheep eye, worm and grasshopper in one of my intro bio classes. I didn't have to do it. My lab professor told me where the animals had come from. She didn't really agree with it. Also, one of her children is a vegetarian so she understands why I'm uncomfortable.

Uhhh... good luck with vet school anatomy... you really cant say you have sufficient anatomy knowledge to do surgery until you've atleast dissected it....

 

[Marsala]

Anyone realize how humanely we put down food animals compared to in nature? We are meant to eat meat just like a tiger...yet all other carnivores/omnivores kill their prey pretty ferociously! So I don't see anything wrong with it!

I usually try to stay out of these discussions, but had to jump in and agree 100% with luplodw. If you want to boil it down, the world is an incredibly horrific, cruel, unforgiving place. Nature can be really brutal. That's fine. You have to accept the terms and deal with it. Otherwise you can't function.

I think that the food animal industry needs a lot of work in terms of how the animals are treated. I thought at one point (while still very young) that vegetarianism was a good way to facilitate change. It's not. Here's why (IMHO): The world does not give a crap whether one person eats meat or not. One vegetarian (or even a group of vegetarians) is not going to change the eating habits of millions of people. I actually have a friend (who went to vet school at Massey and just graduated) who is vegan and believes that everyone in the world should be vegan, or at the least vegetarian.

That mode of thinking bugs the crap out of me. There are people on this planet who are starving, and all some people can think about is how much better they are than others because they have the option of being ridiculously picky about what they eat. (NOTE: not all vegetarians are whiners, but I know my share). If you don't like the way animals are treated in production, support production that treats them well, and actively work to change things. Sitting around whining about a class, or whining about ,"I don't eat this, I don't eat that..." does not help. It changes nothing. Change is slow, but there have definitely been some changes because of people who work with the industry rather than screaming and pointing fingers at it.

On the flip side, I have a friend who is a veterinarian and a vegan, and she says that she would absolutely eat animals and their products if industry treated them better. She isn't preachy at all, like my other friend. And she gets a much better reception than the militant, in-your-face friend does.

I don't know if this is helpful to the original poster, or at all. It's just my 2 cents. I hope you can figure things out.

 

[dyachei]

I just wanted to chime in on the meat-eating aspect here. To say that we don't require meat may be true, but for the most part, vegetarians that I have known personally did not balance their diets correctly and suffered health issues as a result. If a lifestyle takes such education and training to employ correctly, maybe it isn't right for MOST people. I'm not saying that anyone here is incapable of being vegetarian, just pointing out that a lot of people do it badly. Taurine and arginine are capable of being supplemented, too. It's just usually better from fresh meat.
Also, having seeing slaughter for class, most animals I saw were not cruelly treated before arriving at the slaughterhouse or even in the beginning stages of slaughter (and I'm pretty observant, most of the time). They had two modes of stunning so that those that were not stunned the first time would be stunned soon after. Each slaughterhouse is different, as is each farmer. Just something to keep in mind.

http://www.animalwelfarecouncil.com/html/aw/rights.php

The site above describes the differences between animal rights and animal welfare. I encourage anyone who thinks they support animal rights to read this.

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/policies.asp

That link is for the AVMA's stance on animal welfare. Most vet schools follow this stance because the AVMA accredits to each school.

 

[Minnerbelle]

If you don't like the way animals are treated in production, support production that treats them well, and actively work to change things.

I totally agree with you on this... but I think you're preaching to a wall if this is what you say to staunch vegans/AR activists. They don't believe that there's ANY production that is capable of treating animals well. They believe that the fact that you kill an animal for food in itself is abhorring.

personally, I'm on your vet's side of things. I wish I could go back to being carnivorous... but once in a while I start feeling incredibly guilty about some of the things I've been "told" happens in food production. and as i've said, I plan on educating myself throughout vet school on the matter since i'll finally be in a place where i can get good information.

what i don't understand from your statement above, is how are you supposed to know which meat source treats their animals well??? to me (and again, i'm not very knowledgeable on the matter) a lot of the "humane raised," "free-range," etc... seem like they can be marketing gimmicks targeting the wealthy conscientious liberals... who i have a feeling were also the ones that generally voted for prop 2 in california.

 

[peachy3214]

Some people are assuming that what they have been told about factory farms is false or exaggerated by those that have an agenda. How many people on these boards have worked for extended periods of time at a factory farm? I dont mean "I walked through and toured the facilities" or "I volunteered for some time". I have worked in the world of factory farms for the past ten years and I assure you that much of what you have heard of their horrors and cruelty is neither an exaggeration nor a lie. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the people who work at factory farms DO NOT care about the animals and have no concept of compassion. The videos that you have seen in the media about the treatment of downer cattle was terrible, but was NOTHING compared to what I have PERSONALLY seen in the past ten years done to chicken, pigs, goats, and cows. I hope that some of you will venture outside of the academic atmosphere that many of you have/will experience the food animal industry in and see for yourself that the industry needs major improvements. I am afraid that many of you have been sheltered from the real world.

 

[ColoradoDVM]

There you go.



It's not that you have "a different opinion" than I. It's that you came on here stating that you support terrorist, pet-banning, fire-bombing agendas, which is exactly what you're doing by supporting AR. The fact that you now know the difference between AW and AR and have changed your view accordingly means I have no apology to make. You learned a great deal from this thread. I didn't "disrespect" you - I told you the truth.
Angelus,
I worked in a medical and product testing laboratory in the 1980's that had a DVM as director. When I took the job there, I believed that the "whacko-extremists" grossly misrepresented the conditions in such facilities. To my dismay, the photos that AW and AR groups used to promote their cause depicted situations that were commonplace in the lab I worked in. Treatment of the animals, lack of care during euthenasia (mouse basketball, anyone), testing design, etc. were all way below today's standards. The AR groups go way too far but some of the info they put forth is, unfortunately, reality. Thankfully, many of the atrocities (yes, that's right) that were commonplace in labs a generation ago are no longer acceptable.
AW and AR groups were a factor in these changes as they raised public awareness. Maybe if the facility I worked at had a director with a little more Zureski sentiment and a little less Angelus attitude, some suffering could have been prevented.

 

[Pomegranate]

Some people are assuming that what they have been told about factory farms is false or exaggerated by those that have an agenda. How many people on these boards have worked for extended periods of time at a factory farm? I dont mean "I walked through and toured the facilities" or "I volunteered for some time". I have worked in the world of factory farms for the past ten years and I assure you that much of what you have heard of their horrors and cruelty is neither an exaggeration nor a lie. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the people who work at factory farms DO NOT care about the animals and have no concept of compassion. The videos that you have seen in the media about the treatment of downer cattle was terrible, but was NOTHING compared to what I have PERSONALLY seen in the past ten years done to chicken, pigs, goats, and cows. I hope that some of you will venture outside of the academic atmosphere that many of you have/will experience the food animal industry in and see for yourself that the industry needs major improvements. I am afraid that many of you have been sheltered from the real world.

I somewhat agree. I haven't seen anything but chickens, so that's all I can comment on, but the factory farms that I have seen with the least human involvement have treated the animals the most humanely. If everything is monitored mostly by computers, such as temperature, egg belts, feces belts, food belts, and alarms if something is wrong, then the company can pick a couple people to monitor the houses that really care about the animals instead of having to hire anyone who will work in that type of an environment, i.e. immigrants. They don't come here because they like animals and want to work with them, they come and look for jobs because they need to, so their quality of work and commitment to the health of the animals is extremely low, there are of course exceptions.

This is my problem with prop 2 we are moving from heading towards low human involvement to high human involvement and things are just going to get worse. That's why I didn't think it should have been the public's decision at all, the animal welfare is going to go downhill. Chickens will die more and get more diseases and thus effect food quality because we are relying on these people that don't care about the animals to make sure they are healthy. I have no problem with factory farming as long as the animals are being treated humanely. The videos that are shown, don't show these great animal facilities, first off because they have great security and second because who would oppose the top of the line facilities where animals are being treated extremely well, it won't stir anything up. I only buy eggs that come from ranches I have seen and agree with how their chickens are raised.

I guess this response might have been better for the prop 2 thread, but I'm still talking about animal welfare.

 

[luplodw]

Bad example as cats actually do need meat. The issue is not the amount of protein. Its lack of certain amino acids only found in meat, and without it you get heart failure and death.

Yeah sorry didn't know about that. Bad example. But my point is that we need meat just as much as animals in the wild. We were made to eat meat. Back in the day there was no way to know what nutrients we needed from meat so there was no way to supplement that with things like tofu. Yes now we have the knowledge of ways to replace meat in our diets, but who says we have to change the way we were meant to live merely because we can?

 

[Marsala]

Minnerbelle: sadly, a lot of the terms used are marketing gimmicks. Like "free-range" chickens that are allowed to "roam" inside a warehouse and are still debeaked (among other things). How to determine who is doing their part to raise animals humanely? Researching the companies thoroughly helps some (someone is always out there digging for info), and supporting local farms helps, too. There isn't a good, simple answer. Hammering on legislators to change policy does a bit to help, too. I do raise my own chickens, and try to educate people (not formally) on the realities of factory farms. A lot of the general public is truly oblivious. It is an uphill battle, but not impossible. Changing how things are run now is going to take a lot of work. It will also take finding a way to make humane production more profitable than current production methods, because as I'm sure many know, money does make the world go round.

 

[zuneski]

The reason why I don’t like that the slaughter happens at my university is because I’ve invested so much into my school, and I shudder to think that my tuition money and fees have actually contributed to the slaughtering. It is a public university, but I have not been able to find budgeting records yet. I guess it’s hard to escape the whole budgeting issue b/c I shop at grocery stores that supply meat, eat at restaurants that prepare meat, etc..
Although many of you have challenged my beliefs and have made me re-evaluate myself, you have been really harsh. You can’t expect me not to be overly defensive, when many of you had tried to tear me apart! It’s funny that many of you have accused me of being “morally superior” and arrogant, when many of you have been that same way.
I never wanted to debate the issue of animal slaughter and cruelty. I used the slaughterhouse situation as an example, but my main question was if any of you were concerned about the ethical/moral issues you may face as a vet (or in vet school). Like I said, I have my beliefs, and you all have yours. For the future, being hostile does not help you get your point across. It only makes people more defensive and hostile in return. I’m also not stupid; the vet schools I applied to didn’t need the lab. But I thought it would be an important class to take. And again with the snap judgements, some of you have assumed that because I’m a vegetarian that I’m unhealthy. It is possible to be healthy with a meat-free diet.
nyanko – I’m not trying to backpedal! I’ve made my beliefs clear and you took it upon yourself to make snap judgments, based on my first post. Don’t flatter yourself, I’m not going to sit here crying if you don’t apologize to me…I don’t know you and I don’t care if you apologize or not. I never expected one. I don’t expect one from anyone here (especially after the overall tone I have received).
Angelus9, it’s obvious that there are AR extremists out there. By being an AR supporter, it doesn’t automatically make you an extremist that will commit terrorist acts and destroy property. I know that not all AR advocates support PETA or other groups that resort to terrorist acts. Maybe you should educate yourself more about that. This issue is definitely not black and white. If it was, one person would have posted the “right” answer, and this thread wouldn’t have blown up like it did. There are Liberals and Conservatives, but there also Moderates. I understand your views, but you need to learn how to make your point without calling names and being overly aggressive.

 

[Angelus9]

I worked in a medical and product testing laboratory in the 1980's.... Treatment of the animals, lack of care during euthenasia (mouse basketball, anyone), testing design, etc. were all way below today's standards. ....AW and AR groups were a factor in these changes as they raised public awareness.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. And I agree that watch must be kept.

However, this does not negate that fact that AR by definition seeks to abolish ALL human, not only use, but interaction, with animals other than other humans. Except for Peter Singer, who thinks human-animal sex is just fine. Tell that to the abused animals.

It also does not negate the fact that AR groups use the good they've done to get people to do exactly what you are doing - say, oh, well, they're not that bad...they do some good things....

And so they get your money and your support and use it to further their ultimate goal - a petless, meatless society. Don't fall for it. Support the animal welfare groups that are doing the same thing without fire-bombing laboratories or, like PETA, taking dogs from shelters "to adopt" and then killing them in the back of their van. Disgusting.

 

[nyanko]

nyanko – I'm not trying to backpedal! I've made my beliefs clear and you took it upon yourself to make snap judgments, based on my first post. Don't flatter yourself, I'm not going to sit here crying if you don't apologize to me…I don't know you and I don't care if you apologize or not. I never expected one. I don't expect one from anyone here (especially after the overall tone I have received).

I made the "snap judgment" that you were an animal rights supporter based on the fact that you said "I support animal rights." 😉

By being an AR supporter, it doesn't automatically make you an extremist that will commit terrorist acts and destroy property.

By definition if you support any organization that calls itself an animal rights organization, you are supporting the people who do this, regardless of whether you go out and firebomb a researcher's car yourself or not.

edit: I'm basically just repeating the same thing Angelus9 is saying and phrasing it differently.

 

[dyachei]

Angelus9, it’s obvious that there are AR extremists out there. By being an AR supporter, it doesn’t automatically make you an extremist that will commit terrorist acts and destroy property. I know that not all AR advocates support PETA or other groups that resort to terrorist acts. Maybe you should educate yourself more about that. This issue is definitely not black and white. If it was, one person would have posted the “right” answer, and this thread wouldn’t have blown up like it did. There are Liberals and Conservatives, but there also Moderates. I understand your views, but you need to learn how to make your point without calling names and being overly aggressive.

I'm not trying to be harsh here at all, but this really indicates that you don't understand animal rights versus animal welfare. it isn't about terrorist acts. It is about their views on how animals should be incorporated into society. By saying you are for animal rights, you are making a statement that says that you do not agree with animals being pets. Using animals for any purpose is against the idea that animals should have rights equal to those of human beings. Animal welfare supporters believe that animals should be free of cruelty, but that animals should still be able to be used as pets, entertainment, etc. This includes horseback riding and events. Although there is some middle ground - for instance, animal welfare supporters may not believe that animals should be used for some purposes - the core principle of animal rights is that animals should have the same rights as any other animal, including human beings.

 

[DVMDream]

Zuneski,

Just some friendly advice: Go do some research on the differences between animal welfare and animal rights; it is clear from your posts that you do not understand the full differences especially as seen from the pre-vet/veterinary field. Please do this research before going to any interviews you may have because they will more than likely ask what the differences are. While, there may be some gray areas; the definitions of animal rights and animal welfare are more black and white than you might think. Also, like nyanko said just because you do not go out with these AR groups and bomb cars does not make you any less apart of it. You give them money and they use that money to do these terrorist like attacks or you give them verbal support through word of mouth to friends/family telling them to support these groups. I am only saying this for your own benefit: go do some good research on the differences and what these AR groups do; you will be quite surprised.