I don't mean to anger people but.....

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Originally posted by ewells:
•In defense of Simseema, "suck it up" means the same as "rolling up your sleeves" and other expressions that infer working hard when things get tough. So I think that the criticism laid at her was inappropriate, especially by Incendiary. Simseema's message is exactly the one you say should be given, "strive to overcome" problems that come up.•••

Suck it up, ewells. ;)

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I just wanted to add that one of my favorite books is "How to Lie with Statistics". For all of those who rely on statistics to prove or disprove your point (toobsllik) keep in mind, you can manipulate statistics to show whatever you want. There are plenty of studies that directly contradict the studies you cite as being "proof".
 
OregonLR! I feel you. The heirarchy in ascending order is as follows: 1) Lies 2) Damn lies 3) Statistics.

Hey toob. Why do you have to be like that? It's not right. Try to be more considerate. Think more about these issues. Your posts are quite upsetting. I was going to insult you but then I chilled out and edited my initial post. Do some role playing and sort of try to understand what it's like to not have enough stars in alignment from the onset.

one love
 
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Amy,

I'm not a URM, if anything, I would think my race is overrepresented in the medical field...do I think that helps me? Probably not...but life's not fair. I didn't mean "suck it up" as in stop whining...I guess I meant to say life's not fair, although we can all sit around and discuss problems and how to fix them, the only real way for EVERYONE (URM or not) to better themselves, is by working their tail off. I guess I'm just a strong believer of hard work will always pay off.

If someone (URM) thinks they need to get the bear minimum to get into med school, because of their status, I'm sure the (at least I have faith in) the adcoms to make the best decision of who should become a doctor.
 
Originally posted by OregonLabRat:
•I just wanted to add that one of my favorite books is "How to Lie with Statistics". For all of those who rely on statistics to prove or disprove your point (toobsllik) keep in mind, you can manipulate statistics to show whatever you want. There are plenty of studies that directly contradict the studies you cite as being "proof".•••


To Shizzy: These are not "racist" statistics. They are fact. There is no way to manipulate them. There can be no sample bias, as these reflect the entire test-taking population. Yes, I will admit, the individual whose site I directed you to may be a racist. However, the statistics he uses are not his own; they were released by the college board. Every year, in fact, the college board releases these results. Every year, similar trends are seen. The fact is this: you don't want to admit that these statistics are true. But they are; live with it. That you continue to argue with me about FACTS makes me even more confident of my position.

To OregonLabRat: I challenge you to find ONE STUDY that contradicts what I have shown here. I guarantee that your seach will be in vain. You do the affirmative action movement such an injustice when you spout off this anachronistic garbage.
 
2shizzy,

Look, there are much better arguments that you can make for affirmative action. This is something I have done independent research on. Despite the fact that I will be attending medical school next fall, I actually did my senior thesis on this topic. I promise you, the black/white achievement gap cannot be attributed to socioeconomic status.
I am not against affirmative action because I am a racist. I just don't think it is the answer to the problems that face African-Americans. I believe that reparations are a much better solution. Now, do I think all African-Americans should get a check in the mail? No. But I think money should be used to encourage African-Americans to attend college as well as to fund various outreach programs.
I have been called a racist more than once on this board. My girlfriend, who happens to be African-American, would be quite pissed to learn that her boyfriend is racist. Maybe we can keep this between us.
 
And the plot officially thickens . . .
 
Toobsllik,

I fully stand by my assertion that statistics can be manipulated to show whatever you want. I could take the same set of data from your link that shows such disparity between races, and manipulate it in such a way that shows that any disparity is statistically insignificant. Or even introduce alternative explanations for any disparity. No one is arguing that standardized test disparities exist. It is the INTERPRETATION of the test data, and an attempt to explain what it shows that is in question here. Considering your link is from an admittedly racist site, the conclusions drawn must be taken with some skepticism. By the way, I tried to find verifications for the numbers listed in your linked site, and the actual study from which the numbers and breakdown supposedly came from, and I cannot verify that the numbers used (including the breakdowns based on wages) exist anywhere away from that site.


Because I am technologically impaired, I am unable to provide links to the various quotes I am including. In addition, one is from a recent sociological textbook for which there is no internet link (or at least none that I am aware of). Again, I state that there are other conclusions from "bona fide" studies that directly contradict the conclusions from your rascist site.
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"The misuse of test scores for purposes beyond which they have been validated have had a systematic adverse impact on minority applicants to higher education. The differences in the performance of black and white test takers are a magnitude of approximately one standard deviation in each of the admission testing programs. Much of this significant difference in performance can be attributed to environmental and societal factors that neither reflect an individual's level of achievement nor his/her capacity to achieve if given the opportunity."
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"Demands for allegedly race-neutral criteria of "merit" and "standards" fail to recognize this country's historical and ongoing record of institutionalized discrimination. (Current examples are plentiful, including unequal school funding, red-lining and housing segregation, and discrimination in job promotion.) Moreover, the standardized tests used to determine "merit" are notoriously biased in favor of those with higher socio-economic status or those whose parents have a higher level of education. Skin color and circumstance of birth, not merit and ability, are undeniable factors in such tests."
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The strongest claim that can be made for standardized tests is a correlation between performance and scores at the very highest and lowest levels. In the vast middle range, where the majority of students fall, the predictive value is no more reliable than the flip of a coin.
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"The only objective part of most standardized tests is the scoring, when it is done by machine. What items to include on the test, the wording and content of the items, the determination of the "correct" answer, choice of test, how the test is administered, and the uses of the results are all decisions made by subjective human beings ("FairTest: What's wrong with standardized tests?" May 5, 1998, p. 1). "
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"An assessment test is considered biased when it does not predict the performance of specific groups in comparison to the performance of the predominant group (Garcia & Pearson, 1994). Although overt bias in tests, to a certain extent, is being addressed by test producers, most forms of bias are subtle and tend to remain in the very structure of tests. Essentially, how the test is normed, what questions are asked, how the test questions are asked, and who determines the correct answers produce a biased process through which people are ranked, sorted, differentiated, and then compared.

Norming is the process of developing a standard to which test-takers can be compared. Often, in applying strict probability samples of the nation, for norming purposes, only small numbers of people of color are represented (Garcia & Pearson, 1994). Consequently, the process of norming has a tendency to reflect the dominant culture (Garcia & Pearson, 1994).

In the norming process, specific trial questions are tested for their correlation with the total test score. Those questions that have a low correlation with the total score are removed based on the assumption that "they provide a poor estimate of the phenomenon being measured" (Garcia & Pearson, 1994, p. 343). Invariably, the questions that are eliminated are those questions on which a small number of low-scoring individuals do relatively well (Garcia & Pearson, 1994). Not surprisingly, people of color are over-represented in the group of low-scoring individuals (Garcia & Pearson, 1994). Therefore, people of color are apt to do poorly on the authorized final version of the test instrument.

When the Stanford-Binet test (the United States version) was developed, it was normed on middle-class white
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In the vast middle range, where the majority of students fall, the predictive value is no more reliable than the flip of a coin"

IT is very dangerous to make conclusions based on race when ALL factors are not considered. Many teachers in Germany were all for Hitler's reforms because he was able to manipulate data to "prove" that Aryans were a superior race. But then, Tooblsllik, you probably agree with him.

Also, on a sidenote, what is your fascination with the word "anachronistic" about? You use the word often in your posts, but unfortunately it doesn't make sense in the context in which you use it.
 
Originally posted by Amy Beth:

I will also ignore bebe's attack on me saying "I am burning with rage". That is absolutely without merit, but since it is her first post I will overlook that as well.

uhm I think you meant gebe.

:D

Bebe
 
Originally posted by toobsllik:
•My gir1friend, who happens to be African-American, would be quite ed to learn that her boyfriend is racist. •••

ooh I'm not racist because my sister dated an african-american in 2nd grade...oooh how can I be racist when I watch Oprah :D --skinny dude in "Road Trip"...or oooh We're not racist cause our dog Bingo plays with the neighbors' dog Jack, and they are black...or Dude! I'm not racist! I listen to Eminem for crying out loud...or I'm not racist cause my gir1friend is african american.

Hey toob! No one gives a crap where your gir1 is from. Several of your comments have been called racist strictly based on their content and nothing else.
 
I was just wondering:
Has anyone done a study of how many of the kids who are admitted from underserved areas actually go back once they graduate from Med school?
I was visiting a few hospitals in brooklyn and queens and it seemed to me that the doctors there were indians, bangladeshis, pakistanis, russians. You would have to go to Westchester to find the minority doctors.
Just a thought.
 
After busting their a$$es through med school and residency I really think physicians should be able to choose where they want to practice. This is America and it's a free country. If you want to serve in the ghetto and make a difference, I say do what you gotta do. If however you want to open up a maxillofacial surgery private practice in Beverly hills; that's fine too, it's again your call.

I have to agree with you that the really ghetto area hospitals are mostly staffed by foreign nationals; however, of the american doctors at such places, the vast majority are hispanic and african american.
 
I do not mean to anger people but I am really curious about the whole URM thing. There have been so many posts on the SDN that talk about the URM,especially when pertaining to GPA and MCAT. Someone says they have low stats and everyone asks if they are URM. Or someone says "I have low gpa and low MCAt but I am a URM."

Here is my problem. What does being a URM have to do with lower stats. I did see the stats from the MCAT web site (I posted about this today) and stats were so different when they were compared by race. Why is this?

I feel if I were an URM I would be insulted with being accepted somewhere with lower scores then what everyone else was accepted with.

Maybe I am missing something, but I feel we all work very, very hard to get to med school, so why are some people given what seems to me to be special rights when looking at their stats.

I'm sure some people will take offense to my post. Those of you who have seen all my previous posts know that I do care about other people, I am not racist, I do not go out of my way to hurt or offend anyone.

Any thoughts?

I think some of us deserve that advantage and white and asian people should be held back to allow minorities to catch up.
 
I think some of us deserve that advantage and white and asian people should be held back to allow minorities to catch up.

Nice necro bump :cool:
 
Nice necro bump :cool:

I think that out of sheer respect to the OP, the hopefully unsuccessful troll will remain unsuccessful.

Please lets ignore the bump.
 
I think that out of sheer respect to the OP, the hopefully unsuccessful troll will remain unsuccessful.

Please lets ignore the bump.

Yes please ignore. OP is new so maybe he/she didn't realize this was probably the worst way to start a SDN career. Necro bump AND urm...not a good look.
 
Dang. Necro Bump. Edit.
 
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