Im a Amedd Recruiter!

[350011]

curious...Why the name bomberdoc? Did you fly bombers in the AF? My father is a retired b-52, b-1 navigator.

SSgt,

I appreciate the difficulty of the mission with which you are charged. This is a bit unorganized as I've written it after seeing this thread and then taking to a friend who will be USAF HPSP MD 2012 and my friend who is a USN HPSP MD 2010. I will preface this comment with three things: 1) I am an HPS Program participant, USN MD 2012. (2) I wanted to be in the military since I was in HS and came back to it for med school having turned down the USNA. (3) the E8 who recruited me did many of the things I suggest while the USAF and USA recruiters I spoke with did not--though my family ties to the Navy probably would've held out anyway.

Perhaps the greatest challenge you face is that the dominant marketing strategy of the AFHPSP, regardless of branch, is inherently flawed. There are two focii of the recruiting 'pitch': monetary benefit and (military) service. The dramatic emphasis is unfortunately--with respect to lack of credibility and predatory subterfuge--upon the former rather the latter. To participate in the AFHPS Program is a financially irrational decision for most prospective applicants. The exceptions are two-fold. First, for those who intend to enter primary-care fields the program is monetarily viable as pay is competitive with civilian reimbursement. Second, those who make it to retirement (strictly 20 years as working longer in the military makes the gap even larger at a rate of 30-250K per annum depending on specialty) may close the financial gap when retirement pay and health care incentives are considered--this is however assuming they move on to the civilian sector as practicing physicians after their service. By emphasizing a benefit that simply does not exist, the current marketing strategy puts you at an even greater disadvantage. Furthermore, in employing such a strategy the AFHPSP effectively targets those who are risk-averse (Milton Friedman is rolling) and base their decision almost entirely on this factor. As you can no doubt ascertain from this forum, this financial shortfall is among the most vocalized criticisms of the AFHPSP and Military Medicine, and one that sours many an experience though the nurses and red tape are also prominent.

My recommendation is that you emphasize the latter rather than the former. As even some of the most hardened critics of the Medical Corps in this forum will agree, those who sign need to do so because they have a desire to be in the military, BS and all, NOT because of some smoke and mirrors campaign about financial incentives and practice opportunities that anyone capable of sitting for the MCAT should be able to see through. However, I will say that I think it is each prospectives responsibility to do their own homework.

Though an incidental comment, an excellent suggestion has already been made and passed over. Perhaps the greatest service you can perform in the recruiting process is to actively put prospectives in touch with active duty physicians/dentists/veterinarians(?) in the O3-O6 category. The behind-the-curtain insight and anecdotal information provided is what both my friends, myself, and many other prospective medical corps officers both want and need to make their decision--the popularity of this forum may serve as evidence of this point. Frankly, we are all smart enough to see through the BS if we don't want to be fooled, and many of us take the time to research our questions here and elsewhere before posing them to recruiters--I stopped responding to a USAF recruiter after being lied to explicitly in response to a question I already had answered via a USAF MC Powerpoint that came up on google. By emphasizing the service aspects (leadership, camaraderie, unique practice environments and opportunities, etc...) and the actual benefits of mil med over civilian (a prominent one seems to be the idea that all of our patients are insured and thus such considerations are often moot) you will economize your time and more effectively showcase the actual opportunities that come from sacrificing our time, compensation, and autonomy.

It's a hard sell, but there are those of us out there that don't care about making $100K a year as a BCMD rather than $300K or actually kind of look forward to doing something like UMO/FS/FMF training. Often we have a military background and the recruiting has already been done for you by our parents. Perhaps even more frequently we come to you rather than the other way around. Your job then is to drop the BS and paint a representative image, both positive and negative. In doing so you'll weed out people who will only drop out of the process later when they become illuminated (OR you'll save the rest of us from suffering through even more PMS-ing from them then we'll already be doing on our own) and thus save yourself time to focus on those applicants who are going to get you your quota.

My hope, if you've made it this far, is only that you consider the advantages of a forthright, full-disclosure approach to recruiting my future colleagues as it truly benefits you, your service, your prospectives, and, most importantly, me and other students like me.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

SSgt,

I appreciate the difficulty of the mission with which you are charged. This is a bit unorganized as I've written it after seeing this thread and then taking to a friend who will be USAF HPSP MD 2012 and my friend who is a USN HPSP MD 2010. I will preface this comment with three things: 1) I am an HPS Program participant, USN MD 2012. (2) I wanted to be in the military since I was in HS and came back to it for med school having turned down the USNA. (3) the E8 who recruited me did many of the things I suggest while the USAF and USA recruiters I spoke with did not--though my family ties to the Navy probably would've held out anyway.

Perhaps the greatest challenge you face is that the dominant marketing strategy of the AFHPSP, regardless of branch, is inherently flawed. There are two focii of the recruiting 'pitch': monetary benefit and (military) service. The dramatic emphasis is unfortunately--with respect to lack of credibility and predatory subterfuge--upon the former rather the latter. To participate in the AFHPS Program is a financially irrational decision for most prospective applicants. The exceptions are two-fold. First, for those who intend to enter primary-care fields the program is monetarily viable as pay is competitive with civilian reimbursement. Second, those who make it to retirement (strictly 20 years as working longer in the military makes the gap even larger at a rate of 30-250K per annum depending on specialty) may close the financial gap when retirement pay and health care incentives are considered--this is however assuming they move on to the civilian sector as practicing physicians after their service. By emphasizing a benefit that simply does not exist, the current marketing strategy puts you at an even greater disadvantage. Furthermore, in employing such a strategy the AFHPSP effectively targets those who are risk-averse (Milton Friedman is rolling) and base their decision almost entirely on this factor. As you can no doubt ascertain from this forum, this financial shortfall is among the most vocalized criticisms of the AFHPSP and Military Medicine, and one that sours many an experience though the nurses and red tape are also prominent.

My recommendation is that you emphasize the latter rather than the former. As even some of the most hardened critics of the Medical Corps in this forum will agree, those who sign need to do so because they have a desire to be in the military, BS and all, NOT because of some smoke and mirrors campaign about financial incentives and practice opportunities that anyone capable of sitting for the MCAT should be able to see through. However, I will say that I think it is each prospectives responsibility to do their own homework.

Though an incidental comment, an excellent suggestion has already been made and passed over. Perhaps the greatest service you can perform in the recruiting process is to actively put prospectives in touch with active duty physicians/dentists/veterinarians(?) in the O3-O6 category. The behind-the-curtain insight and anecdotal information provided is what both my friends, myself, and many other prospective medical corps officers both want and need to make their decision--the popularity of this forum may serve as evidence of this point. Frankly, we are all smart enough to see through the BS if we don't want to be fooled, and many of us take the time to research our questions here and elsewhere before posing them to recruiters--I stopped responding to a USAF recruiter after being lied to explicitly in response to a question I already had answered via a USAF MC Powerpoint that came up on google. By emphasizing the service aspects (leadership, camaraderie, unique practice environments and opportunities, etc...) and the actual benefits of mil med over civilian (a prominent one seems to be the idea that all of our patients are insured and thus such considerations are often moot) you will economize your time and more effectively showcase the actual opportunities that come from sacrificing our time, compensation, and autonomy.

It's a hard sell, but there are those of us out there that don't care about making $100K a year as a BCMD rather than $300K or actually kind of look forward to doing something like UMO/FS/FMF training. Often we have a military background and the recruiting has already been done for you by our parents. Perhaps even more frequently we come to you rather than the other way around. Your job then is to drop the BS and paint a representative image, both positive and negative. In doing so you'll weed out people who will only drop out of the process later when they become illuminated (OR you'll save the rest of us from suffering through even more PMS-ing from them then we'll already be doing on our own) and thus save yourself time to focus on those applicants who are going to get you your quota.

My hope, if you've made it this far, is only that you consider the advantages of a forthright, full-disclosure approach to recruiting my future colleagues as it truly benefits you, your service, your prospectives, and, most importantly, me and other students like me.

Great Post...I definatley heed your advice. Honestly, I do tell student who are interested in the HPSP that I want you to apply for the scholarship because you want to be a Army physician and want to treat the best patients in the world! I dont want you to do it if its just about paying your way through medical school. I remember that these future docs are the ones that will be treating my family and I a few years from now. The last thing I want is a disgruntled doc treating my daughter if she becomes ill. I appreciate the post though!

 

[elderjack21]

Great Post...I definatley heed your advice. Honestly, I do tell student who are interested in the HPSP that I want you to apply for the scholarship because you want to be a Army physician and want to treat the best patients in the world! I dont want you to do it if its just about paying your way through medical school. I remember that these future docs are the ones that will be treating my family and I a few years from now. The last thing I want is a disgruntled doc treating my daughter if she becomes ill. I appreciate the post though!

You should take some of these recommendations with you to your staff meetings and push them up the chain (not that they will likely listen, but you never know). None of us want to serve with people who were mislead about military medicine and then spend the rest of their time bitter about having to serve out their time.

On another note. I logged into the Army MODS program for the first time yesterday and it asked me a few survey questions, one of which was something along the lines of "did I speak with any active duty doctors and did that influence my decision to join" Maybe they are looking at setting up a more formal system for possible recruits to get in contact with active duty physicians. Great care would have to be taken not to only put them in contact with "satisfied customers" though, as the AF recruiter I spoke with tried to do this for me. We want objective accurate information, which is hard to come by.

On another note, the survery asked me if I took the 20k bonus and if it influenced my decision to join. Of course I took it, and of course it did not influence my decision to join...20k should not be a decision maker for taking the military scholarship and I hope that it didn't put people over the top in making them decide to join. It can never be stated enough that you shouldn't serve for the money, the money is just nice to have.

 

[elderjack21]

SSgt,

My recommendation is that you emphasize the latter rather than the former. As even some of the most hardened critics of the Medical Corps in this forum will agree, those who sign need to do so because they have a desire to be in the military, BS and all, NOT because of some smoke and mirrors campaign about financial incentives and practice opportunities that anyone capable of sitting for the MCAT should be able to see through. However, I will say that I think it is each prospectives responsibility to do their own homework.

I think this is why the Marines never have a hard time filling their ranks. They sell it like it is, they sell service, they show that it may suck at times, but people still sign up.

The Air Force sells soft, corporate like structure, short deployments, etc...they also fill their ranks.

The Army just doesn't have a clue as is evidenced by their ever changing recruitment pitches...be all you can be...army of one...army strong. Throwing lots of cash at people hoping to snag them instead of emphasizing service and being part of a team. (I was in the army btw...will be doing army HPSP as well)

Can't speak so much for the navy as I don't really like the ocean or boats too much so I never looked into it.

 

[Perrotfish]

I think this is why the Marines never have a hard time filling their ranks. They sell it like it is, they sell service, they show that it may suck at times, but people still sign up.

I hate to break it to you, but the Marines have had to lower their standards in similar ways to the Army of the course of the Iraq war to keep their ranks full. I have no idea if the more honest recruiting pitch increases long term moral, but I´ve never seen any evidence that the Marines have a particularly easy time on the recruitment side of things.

 

[elderjack21]

I hate to break it to you, but the Marines have had to lower their standards in similar ways to the Army of the course of the Iraq war to keep their ranks full. I have no idea if the more honest recruiting pitch increases long term moral, but I´ve never seen any evidence that the Marines have a particularly easy time on the recruitment side of things.

Perhaps they haven't been free of problems, but clearly they have an easier time than the Army does.

The other factor of course is they don't need nearly as many people.

 

[FormerReservist]

Hello recruiter,
I have a question. If one served in the Reserve for 8 years, will he get paid 0-1E with eight years of service for the basis pay?

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

Question for the recruiter, asking for a friend:

I know someone who might be interested in a 3 year NP program for students that already have their BA. His BA is from Africa, but he´s a US citizen. Does the Army have any kind of program to fund this sort of thing, and if so, how competitive is it?

NP program? Im not familiar with what NP is?

 

[SSGAmeddRcr]

Hello recruiter,
I have a question. If one served in the Reserve for 8 years, will he get paid 0-1E with eight years of service for the basis pay?

to answer your question, you have to serve at least 4 years active enlisted to get the "e" pay. However, your 8 years of reserve service count towards pay. So say you graduated HPSP, you would be paid o-3 with 8 years instead of a o-3 with less than 2

 

[Perrotfish]

NP = Nurse practicioner = someone with a masters in nursing. Like a Physicians Assistant, but nursier.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I have yet to see an active duty nurse practitioner.

There aren't any nurse anesthetists at your place? A year or two ago my place had nurse anesthetists working under THE SURGEON'S supervision/license. Weird huh. I'm glad to see that has been fixed. At least now there are a few anesthesiologists around.

 

[Perrotfish]

I have yet to see an active duty nurse practitioner

That just seems wierd. I know the Military uses PAs. Aren´t NPs supposed to be basically the same thing?

 

[Perrotfish]

I´ve heard conflicting reports on the comparitive abilities of NPs and PAs, but for my friend´s sake I thought that at this time NP would be the better move for him, since NPs have the option of moving up to a Doctor of Nursing/CRNA/surgical specialties. PAs don´t seem to have as many options. I wouldn´t want my friend to get stuck because he chose the wrong degree.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

CRNAs are not nurse practitioners.

But thanks for the sarcasm. I especially enjoyed how you managed to take a simple thread where folks were sharing info about support staff in military facilities, and work in (yet another) dig on the system. I think you added a lot to this topic.

Hmmm...you learn something new every day. Despite the fact that NPs and CRNAs are both nurses before they get their "advanced practice training", CRNAs are very careful to distinguish themselves from their colleagues in other specialties so it would appear you are correct.

Sorry my observations seem a "dig" on the system to you. The fact of the matter is that there is little to observe that isn't a dig on the system. Would you like to hear about the people I saw tonight complaining about having to wait an hour and a half to have their sprained ankle x-rayed....for free?

 

[FormerReservist]

SSG Amed Recruiter,
let me know when u reply to my Q

 

[Kingfisher]

SSG Amed Recruiter,
let me know when u reply to my Q

A PM might help.

 

[TheGoose]

Quick Question to SSG or any other knowledgeable member:

In regards to HPSP and recruiters - do i enter a relationship with my hometown medical recruiter or the recruiter who is zoned in the area of my medical school? Thanks.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Quick Question to SSG or any other knowledgeable member:

In regards to HPSP and recruiters - do i enter a relationship with my hometown medical recruiter or the recruiter who is zoned in the area of my medical school? Thanks.

Relationships with enlisted personnel are forbidden and punishable under the UCMJ. Besides, you don't need to sell your body to sell your soul.

 

[futrdvm]

Relationships with enlisted personnel are forbidden and punishable under the UCMJ. Besides, you don't need to sell your body to sell your soul.

LMAO!! that was the perfect post to read after getting home from the shift i just worked. thanks for the laugh, i needed it.
i, too have a similar question. allow me to restate it in hopes of getting an answer beyond the sarcastic (although, i do so love the sarcastic).
with whom would i consult in an effort to submit a successful package for the HPSP? should i be speaking and working with the recruiter in my hometown or the recruiter for the area that encompasses my school?

 

[The White Coat Investor]

LMAO!! that was the perfect post to read after getting home from the shift i just worked. thanks for the laugh, i needed it.
i, too have a similar question. allow me to restate it in hopes of getting an answer beyond the sarcastic (although, i do so love the sarcastic).
with whom would i consult in an effort to submit a successful package for the HPSP? should i be speaking and working with the recruiter in my hometown or the recruiter for the area that encompasses my school?

To be honest, I have no idea. I would choose the more convenient one and if they make you switch (which I can't imagine since they have quotas) so be it.

 

[elderjack21]

Quick Question to SSG or any other knowledgeable member:

In regards to HPSP and recruiters - do i enter a relationship with my hometown medical recruiter or the recruiter who is zoned in the area of my medical school? Thanks.

You can work with any recruiter you want. Doesn't matter at all. I chose the one closest to me at the time (then I moved to another country and we did everything by FEDEX) and I am attending a school "outside" of their area.

Aside from everything taking a little longer because of mailing paperwork out...and despite the fact that most recruiters don't understand the system that well and you have to research many things out on your own....I haven't had many large problems.

 

[MaximusD]

Yes. But not as much as prior service, including a GMO tour. According to military match protocol, a mediocre medical student who completed an internship and a GMO tour is way more attractive than you are despite your 280s on the USMLE, your impressive LORs, and your straight As. Sorry, that's just the way it works. And being from a DO school probably doesn't help much either. Most of the docs I know who were screwed out of straight through training were DOs, but I don't know of any systematic bias against them that is actually written down anywhere.

that's an awesome anecdotal story you have there.

Nevermind that PCOM puts out more military medical students than any other medical school, excepting USUHS.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

that's an awesome anecdotal story you have there.

Nevermind that PCOM puts out more military medical students than any other medical school, excepting USUHS.

Don't get your feathers all ruffled. I think I clearly identified it as anecdote in the original statement. Not sure what any of that has to do with PCOM. Are you saying that PCOM students are particularly bad and maybe that's why I've noticed more screwed DOs than MDs? Or simply that there are lots of DOs in the military?

 

[RunwayModel]

Honestly this is great discussion. I was uncertain about registering and posting here because of some of the anti-military medicine posts here...but im glad I did...I am the first to admit there is a lot of grey area in military medicine and there is a good amount of stuff that I am either ignorant to or that the military does not have a concrete answer too..

Wow, and you actually expect people to sign a contract to sign away the next 8 years of their life: 4 + 4 in IRR, from a person who admits, "there is a lot of grey area in military medicine and there is a good amount of stuff that I am either ignorant to or that the military does not have a concrete answer too."

Just don't tell that to the person you're trying to to recruit, you won't meet your quota at all.

 

[core0]

I have yet to see an active duty nurse practitioner.

There are a few. All of the armed forces have some NPs. These are family NPs that work in the family practice clinics for the most part. The issue is generally that they fall under the Nursing Corps and the armed forces are not really set up to integrate them in the deployable medical environment. The use of PAs as Battalion surgeons or assistant brigade or even division surgeons is well understood. No one is sure where NPs fit in this.

The other issue is that NPs are not trained in surgical skills in the way that PAs are. There are some state nursing practice acts that would prohibit emergency battle field surgery such as PAs sometimes preform.

The final issue is that NPs when they are deployed (or even in the US) are frequently yanked back into their RN roles. Here is an article about NPs deployed as part of the 28th CSH.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200608/ai_n17183187/pg_1
As you can see in the article there was a lot of confusion about the role and many of them ended up doing what was done in the states, running the TMC.

From an army standpoint the PA gives them much more flexibility. Any PA can be moved into a battalion surgeon position. It may not be the easiest transition depending on what position they held previously but they can all fall back on their common training.

The military also uses a fair amount of CNMs but they are not deployed. They seem to be terribly conflicted on CNS role and don't seem to use them as an NP (a role they can do in some states) but instead use them in the more traditional role.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Wow, and you actually expect people to sign a contract to sign away the next 8 years of their life: 4 + 4 in IRR, from a person who admits, "there is a lot of grey area in military medicine and there is a good amount of stuff that I am either ignorant to or that the military does not have a concrete answer too."

Just don't tell that to the person you're trying to to recruit, you won't meet your quota at all.

8? Try 16. 4 med school, 4 residency, 4 active duty, 4 IRR. If it were only eight that wouldn't be too bad. Anyone who tells you you're not in the military as a med student has never had to deal with the military match and setting up and completing military rotations.

 

[Milamber]

8? Try 16. 4 med school, 4 residency, 4 active duty, 4 IRR. If it were only eight that wouldn't be too bad. Anyone who tells you you're not in the military as a med student has never had to deal with the military match and setting up and completing military rotations.

But why do you count med school? You would be going to med school one way or another either via taking out loans or having the military pay for it and the military aspect during those four years are minimal.

Also after I got out of the Corps in 2001 I still had four years of IRR and the ONLY thing I had to do was muster once in 2002 to let them know I was alive and where I was living. I never got activated despite the fact that I was infantry. I actually only know of 3 people who I served with that got called up involuntary.

 

[elderjack21]

8? Try 16. 4 med school, 4 residency, 4 active duty, 4 IRR. If it were only eight that wouldn't be too bad. Anyone who tells you you're not in the military as a med student has never had to deal with the military match and setting up and completing military rotations.

If you do a military residency, those years count towards your IRR time...

 

[elderjack21]

Also after I got out of the Corps in 2001 I still had four years of IRR and the ONLY thing I had to do was muster once in 2002 to let them know I was alive and where I was living. I never got activated despite the fact that I was infantry. I actually only know of 3 people who I served with that got called up involuntary.

The army is changing its muster requirements as of this year...not only do you have to "digitally muster" online, they are piloting a program where you actually show up in person from time to time to be screened for readiness.

Also, the army is activating some 1800 IRR Soldiers again by September. They have stayed away from mass call ups because it gets too much media attention, instead they do a few each month trying to stay under the radar. Kind of messed up, but that is what we sign up for.

 

[Mirror Form]

But why do you count med school? You would be going to med school one way or another either via taking out loans or having the military pay for it and the military aspect during those four years are minimal.

Very True, and most people love the military while in med school. However, it's four more years during which you have no freedom and the military owns you. Also, its four more years AFTER you've signed. So you signed on for 4 years right out of college w/ HPSP, the military will OWN you for an average of 12.

I signed up for ROTC at age 18, and even w/o doing HPSP, I still won't fulfill my obligation until 16 years after signing up. 16 years of no freedom is a large part of your life to sign away for a "four year" scholarship.

 

[sethco]

that's an awesome anecdotal story you have there.

Nevermind that PCOM puts out more military medical students than any other medical school, excepting USUHS.

I graduated from PCOM in 2005. Out of the the 11 AF HPSP students graduating, only 5 got picked up for residency (3 Family Med, 2 Int Med, 1 Radiology). For those people bad at math, that is a 45% match rate!!! To be fair, 2 of those individuals got picked up for residency during their PGY-1 year while reapplying. So, this would give a match rate of 63%, which is still poor by any standards.

Just FYI.

 

[sethco]

There are a few. All of the armed forces have some NPs. These are family NPs that work in the family practice clinics for the most part. The issue is generally that they fall under the Nursing Corps and the armed forces are not really set up to integrate them in the deployable medical environment. The use of PAs as Battalion surgeons or assistant brigade or even division surgeons is well understood. No one is sure where NPs fit in this.

I was deployed with 2 Nurse Practioners in the Sandbox. However, one was National Guard.

 

[MaximusD]

I graduated from PCOM in 2005. Out of the the 11 AF HPSP students graduating, only 5 got picked up for residency (3 Family Med, 2 Int Med, 1 Radiology). For those people bad at math, that is a 45% match rate!!! To be fair, 2 of those individuals got picked up for residency during their PGY-1 year while reapplying. So, this would give a match rate of 63%, which is still poor by any standards.

Just FYI.

OK, were they forced into FS tour or were they able to defer? And what specialties were the rejected applicants applying for? Important factors... Thanks for the info!

 

[Milamber]

Very True, and most people love the military while in med school. However, it's four more years during which you have no freedom and the military owns you. Also, its four more years AFTER you've signed. So you signed on for 4 years right out of college w/ HPSP, the military will OWN you for an average of 12.

I signed up for ROTC at age 18, and even w/o doing HPSP, I still won't fulfill my obligation until 16 years after signing up. 16 years of no freedom is a large part of your life to sign away for a "four year" scholarship.

Technically the military doesn't own you during med school, AFAIK they can't touch you except for your rotations during the summer. While you give up your freedom in med school thats more to study medicine rather than to the military. So including med school in your calculations isn't really accurate you would be in med school one way or the other and can't be held against the total military obligation.

Also if you are successful and don't do a military residency then your payback time is only four years post residency. While I hear where you are coming from your math isn't totally accurate if you include all the variables.

 

[Milamber]

The army is changing its muster requirements as of this year...not only do you have to "digitally muster" online, they are piloting a program where you actually show up in person from time to time to be screened for readiness.

Also, the army is activating some 1800 IRR Soldiers again by September. They have stayed away from mass call ups because it gets too much media attention, instead they do a few each month trying to stay under the radar. Kind of messed up, but that is what we sign up for.

Oh when I mustered it was in person out in Brooklyn, we didn't have the option to muster digitally. I wonder how many physicians get called off of their IRR service?

 

[Jolie South]

Technically the military doesn't own you during med school, AFAIK they can't touch you except for your rotations during the summer. While you give up your freedom in med school thats more to study medicine rather than to the military. So including med school in your calculations isn't really accurate you would be in med school one way or the other and can't be held against the total military obligation.

Also if you are successful and don't do a military residency then your payback time is only four years post residency. While I hear where you are coming from your math isn't totally accurate if you include all the variables.

I think you're forgetting the 4 year IRR commitment after you finish payback time.

 

[sethco]

OK, were they forced into FS tour or were they able to defer? And what specialties were the rejected applicants applying for? Important factors... Thanks for the info!

Forced into GMO tours...

2 Anesthesia, 1 Radiology, 1 Opthamology, 2 Ortho

What specialty did you have in mind?

However, to be fair, I know a bunch of MD students that were forced into GMO tours that applied for Anesthesia, E Med, Ortho, etc. Some of the med schools that they came from include UVA, Florida, Hopkins, and U Maryland just to name a few.

Therefore, IMHO (and I know a bunch of people are going to knock me for this) as far as the AF is concerned, it does not matter where you went to med school, if you didn't go to USUHS. They are all treated equal when it comes to applying for residency.

But I guarantee the great majority (and I am talking about 80-90%) of people going into GMO/FS billets will have been forced (i.e. Not By Choice)

 

[Milamber]

I think you're forgetting the 4 year IRR commitment after you finish payback time.

But unless you get recalled you are pretty much on your own. After I got out of the USMC it never crossed my mind that I might get recalled and I never did. I lived like any other civillian except that I didn't have to take out student loans for college.

Now if you do your residency in the military then your four years of IRR time are eaten up by the time in residency so when you finish your ADSC you'll owe 4-(years of residency) left to the IRR if you take a 3 year residency then its only one more year of IRR if you take a four year residency then you owe nothing to IRR

 

[The White Coat Investor]

But why do you count med school? You would be going to med school one way or another either via taking out loans or having the military pay for it and the military aspect during those four years are minimal.

The military owns you for 6 weeks a year, and since those 6 weeks a year may be the only 6 weeks you have to do what you want, they have quite a bit of influence even during med school, especially during your most critical rotations early in MSIV (when you have to be rotating with them to ensure you don't get screwed in the military match while still trying to rotate at the places you actually want to go to.) To add insult to injury, despite the fact that you're on active duty for 6 months in med school, they don't give you any credit toward pay for that active duty service.

So, define minimal however you like, but for me, while I didn't spend a lot of time on active duty (~6 months), they still had a lot of control over my life during med school. More during med school than residency, since I lucked into a deferment. All I had to do in residency was fill out a form once a year. But from the time I signed my commitment until the time I am free and clear, the military will have had influence on my life for over a decade and a half....all for the price of 4 years tuition at a cheap state school and $900/month in stipends. Pretty good deal for them. Not so good for me.

 

[Galo]

The military owns you for 6 weeks a year, and since those 6 weeks a year may be the only 6 weeks you have to do what you want, they have quite a bit of influence even during med school, especially during your most critical rotations early in MSIV (when you have to be rotating with them to ensure you don't get screwed in the military match while still trying to rotate at the places you actually want to go to.) To add insult to injury, despite the fact that you're on active duty for 6 months in med school, they don't give you any credit toward pay for that active duty service.

So, define minimal however you like, but for me, while I didn't spend a lot of time on active duty (~6 months), they still had a lot of control over my life during med school. More during med school than residency, since I lucked into a deferment. All I had to do in residency was fill out a form once a year. But from the time I signed my commitment until the time I am free and clear, the military will have had influence on my life for over a decade and a half....all for the price of 4 years tuition at a cheap state school and $900/month in stipends. Pretty good deal for them. Not so good for me.

Pretty simple yet amazing when you put it like that. For me it was 18 yrs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just added up in my head, and I CANNOT believe I did that.

It still amazes me that almost everyday we still get premeds that are signing up for this enslavement with almost ZERO actual and factual knowledge of what they are really getting themselves into, and asking questions about simple procedure that their recruiter is to ignorant to answer. Even if unlike you and me it is not for a cheap in state tuition and a stipend, but a big expensive med school, they cannot conceptualize the amount of opportunity money that is being lost by signing up for this ridiculous abomination that is milmed!

 

[Mirror Form]

Technically the military doesn't own you during med school, AFAIK they can't touch you except for your rotations during the summer. While you give up your freedom in med school thats more to study medicine rather than to the military. So including med school in your calculations isn't really accurate you would be in med school one way or the other and can't be held against the total military obligation.

Actually they do own you. What if you decided you didn't want to be a doctor? What if you decided you wanted to take a year off to do research? What if you decided you wanted to MD/PhD? You basically give up all of your options.

Also if you are successful and don't do a military residency then your payback time is only four years post residency. While I hear where you are coming from your math isn't totally accurate if you include all the variables.

Successful and don't do a military residency? That's unlikely, the army takes it's best applicants and defers the people they don't want (or sends them on gmo tours).

And even so, if you're deferred you still have no freedom, and still have the military owning you for that time. You can't move, you can't change fields, you can't do anything that your orders don't cover.

Either way, you're "payback" is four years, but the army owns you and takes away all controll you had over you life for 12 years if you do HPSP. In my case the military will own me for 16 years, even though I just signed up for a "four year" contract.

 

[sethco]

Successful and don't do a military residency? That's unlikely, the army takes it's best applicants and defers the people they don't want (or sends them on gmo tours)./QUOTE]

Correct me if I am wrong, but they can not force you into a residency that you do not want to do. That is the way it works in the AF, at least. Therefore, when it comes time to apply for residency, if you don't choose any specialty you will be a GMO (or equivalent).

If the previous poster was defining "success" by not doing a military residency, it seems the easiest and most sure way of doing this would be to finish your commitment before entering residency (by doing a GMO tour for 3-4 years). That way you don't have to worry about being deferred.

 

[AFmedic2PAC]

NP = Nurse practicioner = someone with a masters in nursing. Like a Physicians Assistant, but nursier.

Physician (no 's) Assistant Perrotfish. Nursier?

That just seems wierd. I know the Military uses PAs. Aren´t NPs supposed to be basically the same thing?

No, do a search on the topic if you really want to know what a PA does in the military. You will find that in some settings they are very comparable to what some Docs do. PAs are still dependent medical practitioners though of course and are best utilized with the right Doc referral capability and support staff.

I would urge you to look at some of the threads on this, and maybe even PM some of the PAs who float through SDN (I especially like core0's info). PAs and NPs are both "mid-level" practitioners, but their training is radically divergent.
PA training = medical model
NP training = nursing model

Having worked with probably 20 different PAs this year, and another dozen or so NPs, I can say that I personally have much more confidence in the ability and education of the PAs.

Thanks Tired but I have personally served as a medic with some outstanding NPs as well.

I´ve heard conflicting reports on the comparitive abilities of NPs and PAs, but for my friend´s sake I thought that at this time NP would be the better move for him, since NPs have the option of moving up to a Doctor of Nursing/CRNA/surgical specialties. PAs don´t seem to have as many options. I wouldn´t want my friend to get stuck because he chose the wrong degree.

What? This just isn't true. PAs work in many, many fields including anesthesiology and IR and have options to get advanced degrees as well.

Well, a couple things. First of all, you don't have to be an NP to become a CRNA. You go into that from RN. Ditto on the nursing PhD. Second, my understanding is that PAs are much more involved in the surgical fields than are NPs. PAs actually receive substantial inpatient training during school, and have the option of post-graduate surgical "residency". From what I have been told, PAs are utilized much more frequently by surgeons than are NPs, both for ward work and for first assist in the OR.

Most NP programs just don't emphasize surgical training to the extent that PA programs do. However, there are some NPs who choose to receive additional training and work in surgical areas. This can be very state dependent as well. Personally I have never met an NP who worked in the civilian surgical field BUT they are out there.

Navy HPSP PA-S
Go Navy!

 

[Mirror Form]

Correct me if I am wrong, but they can not force you into a residency that you do not want to do. That is the way it works in the AF, at least. Therefore, when it comes time to apply for residency, if you don't choose any specialty you will be a GMO (or equivalent).

That's correct, but the vast majority of applicants do not want to do a four year GMO tour.

If the previous poster was defining "success" by not doing a military residency, it seems the easiest and most sure way of doing this would be to finish your commitment before entering residency (by doing a GMO tour for 3-4 years). That way you don't have to worry about being deferred.

Some people do that. Again, very few want to do that as their first choice.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Some people do that. Again, very few want to do that as their first choice.

Plus, they still have to do a military internship prior to the GMO tour.

 

[sethco]

Plus, they still have to do a military internship prior to the GMO tour.

Navy, Yes.

Air Force, No

 

[AFmedic2PAC]

Active duty NPs? Or civilian contractors?




You're being nice, but you shouldn't. It's not that most NP programs don't "emphasize" surgical training. They basically ignore it in favor of clinic-based and primary care training.

I've actually worked with a number of NPs on surgical services. The problem, at least with the ones I worked with, is that they didn't get any additional surgical training, but still felt competent to manage surgical patients. It was often frightening, and on one of my Trauma rotations our team refused to put any patients on the "NP Service" due to gross mismanagement.

As I understand it (and I could be wrong), there is no certification or specialty designation in the NP realm for additional NP training in surgical management (as opposed to the one year post-graduate programs PAs have available).

I worked in the AF with two AD NPs. Granted both of them did Womens Health/OB/Gyn. Now in the civilian sector I worked with several NPs and CNSs that did Peds/PICU. As I stated I have no reference for NPs in surgery. But I can tell you that what they (the NPs I worked with) did they did well.

My wife was the NCOIC of the Womens Health Clinic overseas in the MTF where we were stationed together so I have a little insight into the day-to-day dealings of the NP's practice. I would trust that NP in all matters concerning OB/Gyn. But yes, you are right in saying that I am being nice about the underlying issue.

Would I prefer to have a PA versus an NP in the surgical suite (tent) given what the standard curriculum is for NP training? No, probably not. But I have no real anecdotal reference for my opinion and admit that there are probably plenty of prior military medics turned dual NP(RN)/PAs that I would gladly work with in surgery if that is where I end up in the field. I guess it just boils down to a competency issue versus the assumption that an NP is interchangeable with a PA simply because we are both midlevels.

The medical model of training in my opinion is more amenable to working in a surgical area given that the exposure to surgical patient management is greater in the standard ARC-PA training curriculum. But again, I do believe that NPs have a real place in milmed if they are utilized in the proper manner. When I have seen NPs used as RNs (I did not say just as RNs) it always made me wonder why that would happen when there was a shortage elsewhere.

This post has no bearing on the original topic but I enjoy conversing with my possible future supervising Physicians and fellow Officers.

 

[IGNITE]

I am intrested in serving my country as a physician in the military. I was diagnosed with Crohn's disesase over 5 years ago. I am still currently on medication. Am I elligible for the military scholarship or will I ever be elligibile?

 

[Mirror Form]

I am intrested in serving my country as a physician in the military. I was diagnosed with Crohn's disesase over 5 years ago. I am still currently on medication. Am I elligible for the military scholarship or will I ever be elligibile?

My guess is that you're definitley not elligible.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Navy, Yes.

Air Force, No

Maybe not all, but certainly many in the AF that end up as GMOs did a military internship, wanted or not.