I'm thinking about quitting...

[MrCheetah]

First year student here, thinking about taking a year leave and giving consideration to pursuing something else.

I'll just list my concerns here....

1) Debt : I'll have to go into around 250k worth of debt when all is said and done. After I pay it off, it will be closer to 400k-500k. Residency will be 3-5 years of 40k/year pay. Even if I take 3 years of 40k/year pay, subtracted from 400k in loans I'll have to pay back, that is still 280k in the red. If I factor in opportunity cost in financial terms of an average of 100k/year, over 7 years, it is costing me approximately ONE MILLION dollars to become a doctor.

2) Income to Work ratio : I can look forward to a comfortable income, but not one which is extrodinary (presuming I don't get into an uber competitive speciality). Even if I do get into a good speciality, that will come at the cost of having to work much harder. I could take my intelligence and pursue business or finance and make a larger salary if I were to become something like a financial engineer or a quant than any doctor except a heavily specalized one. Not to mention that if I go that route I'll have more career flexibility and a better lifestyle to boot.

3) It seems as if students, residents, and doctors are heavily exploited in the medical system. Students by the onerous amount of debt, residents by the insane work hours and low pay, and doctors with the many responsibilities that are shuffled upon them and the lukewarm earnings. I feel as if many people go into this field for the money and status, I certainly feel this way about most of my medical school classmates. And it seems as if everyone's need for status, attention, weath, power, etc. is only making things worse for doctors and students; it all translates into poorer student and doctor quality of life if what is being focused on is how to function best within a healthcare system rather than focusing at least partilly on living a satisified and fulfilled life.

Also, it really bothers me to consider how screwed up our health care system is compared to the European countries, about how those students pay comparitively nothing to become educated, about how people are more healthy and better taken care of...

4) It depresses me heavily to see doctors, residents, and students who are overworked and overcharged for education, to hear about how we all are expected to make sacrificies for the good of patients, despite the fact that effects of our sacrificies only serve to ultimately treat people like cattle, pad a health care corporation's bottom line, or leave us less healthy physically and emotionally.

I'm thinking of switching gears completely, of going into something like financial engineering to try to pursue the career path of a quantative analyst in large financial institutions around the world. The final reason I'm thinking of this is that...

5) You're not really "in control" if your future: Sure, you're in control of what field of medicine you want to go into, and you might be able to start a practice that can generate some profit (although I think its completely appalling to serve in any for profit medical venture, for what it is worth), but there is a glass celling for most of the medical profession. If you're a great surgeon you'll not typically be making a heck of alot more than a good surgeon, etc. It seems like unless you go into academia or research or politics there is a societal and governmental boundary to all which you can accomplish. I don't like to have my hands tied that much... I need to have more control of my future and an unlimited boundary to what I can do and accomplish, and to be able to have incentives to lead me to those goals.

I've started this path not as someone who was in it for the money or prestige, but as someone who had an interest in human affairs, science, and medicine, and who wanted to do a small part to help humanity out. I'm just at a point where I feel that people who are as idealistic as I am aren't wanted in the medical profession, and that all I'll accomplish is to go into deep debt, to waste my time, and to be miserable if I push through. Better to work in something like finance where I'll still work hard, but have more compensation, be in more control of my destiny, and have the satisfaction of knowing that I'm working more "honestly".

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[bucks2010]

1) Debt : I'll have to go into around 250k worth of debt when all is said and done. After I pay it off, it will be closer to 400k-500k. Residency will be 3-5 years of 40k/year pay. Even if I take 3 years of 40k/year pay, subtracted from 400k in loans I'll have to pay back, that is still 280k in the red.

If I factor in opportunity cost in financial terms of an average of 100k/year, over 7 years, it is costing me approximately ONE MILLION dollars to become a doctor.

2) Income to Work ratio : I can look forward to a comfortable income, but not one which is extrodinary (presuming I don't get into an uber competitive speciality). Even if I do get into a good speciality, that will come at the cost of having to work much harder. I could take my intelligence and pursue business or finance and make a larger salary if I were to become something like a financial engineer or a quant than any doctor except a heavily specalized one. Not to mention that if I go that route I'll have more career flexibility and a better lifestyle to boot.

3) It seems as if students, residents, and doctors are heavily exploited in the medical system. Students by the onerous amount of debt, residents by the insane work hours and low pay, and doctors with the many responsibilities that are shuffled upon them and the lukewarm earnings. I feel as if many people go into this field for the money and status, I certainly feel this way about most of my medical school classmates. And it seems as if everyone's need for status, attention, weath, power, etc. is only making things worse for doctors and students; it all translates into poorer student and doctor quality of life if what is being focused on is how to function best within a healthcare system rather than focusing at least partilly on living a satisified and fulfilled life.

Also, it really bothers me to consider how screwed up our health care system is compared to the European countries, about how those students pay comparitively nothing to become educated, about how people are more healthy and better taken care of...

4) It depresses me heavily to see doctors, residents, and students who are overworked and overcharged for education, to hear about how we all are expected to make sacrificies for the good of patients, despite the fact that effects of our sacrificies only serve to ultimately treat people like cattle, pad a health care corporation's bottom line, or leave us less healthy physically and emotionally.

I'm thinking of switching gears completely, of going into something like financial engineering to try to pursue the career path of a quantative analyst in large financial institutions around the world. The final reason I'm thinking of this is that...

5) You're not really "in control" if your future: Sure, you're in control of what field of medicine you want to go into, and you might be able to start a practice that can generate some profit (although I think its completely appalling to serve in any for profit medical venture, for what it is worth), but there is a glass celling for most of the medical profession. If you're a great surgeon you'll not typically be making a heck of alot more than a good surgeon, etc. It seems like unless you go into academia or research or politics there is a societal and governmental boundary to all which you can accomplish. I don't like to have my hands tied that much... I need to have more control of my future and an unlimited boundary to what I can do and accomplish, and to be able to have incentives to lead me to those goals.

I've started this path not as someone who was in it for the money or prestige, but as someone who had an interest in human affairs, science, and medicine, and who wanted to do a small part to help humanity out. I'm just at a point where I feel that people who are as idealistic as I am aren't wanted in the medical profession, and that all I'll accomplish is to go into deep debt, to waste my time, and to be miserable if I push through. Better to work in something like finance where I'll still work hard, but have more compensation, be in more control of my destiny, and have the satisfaction of knowing that I'm working more "honestly".

First, sorry to hear you're a bit down currently. I imagine it's a stressful time of year with the end of the semester approaching.

A few thoughts from a lowly pre-med.

1. Your opportunity cost calculations... you estimated you could be making $100k/yr if you weren't in med school? If so, I don't blame you for wanting to quit But seriously, high paying jobs like these don't exactly grow on trees. Unless you had an "in" before you started med school, I think it's highly unlikely you would be making anywhere near this much in business. So I think you're overestimating the opportunity cost in that regard. Also, I'm sure you know there are various types of loan repayment/assistance programs available if the debt is a serious consideration to you.

2. What kind of 'extraordinary' income are you looking for? If you're one of the 70% of med students that specialize you can probably expect $200-300k/yr easily, if not more. Is that not enough to make you happy? $277k/yr puts you in the top 1% of households in the US. How much better do you think you can do with a career in finance?

3. Probably not an accurate comparison of med education in US vs. Europe. Theirs may be free, but in many countries their incomes are lower, taxes higher, harder to specialize in what you want, etc. I mean I'm not that familiar with all of them, but it's not all rainbows and unicorns on the other side of the pond.

4. Of course your income as a physicians is usually somewhat tied to "production" whether it be # of operations, # pts seen... whatever. Same as dentists, mechanics and whatever else. There are many docs who have considerably increased their income by doing stuff on the side. Work with devices, other side businesses, etc. There's a thread here, I think it's in finance & investment, called Doctors making $1 million+ or something.

It seems to be like you've realized some of the crap docs have to deal with and feel like you could do better for yourself in another field. You probably do have to have some level of altruism to persist in medicine because of the things you mentioned (lots of work, etc.). I think there has to be some level of satisfaction in your work by means other than monetary compensation. You should feel somewhat fulfilled in your practice. If you're not seeing yourself being happy in any field of medicine whatsoever, then perhaps you should take some time off to think about things.

I also think money is perhaps weighing a bit too much on your mind. In fact, I'd say it was the central issue of your post. If we were to be honest, none of us can say for sure how docs will be compensated 10, 20, 30 years from now. That's why you have to have some level of satisfaction in your work that isn't derived from the compensation. But at the same time, I think a lot of the other things you mentioned (namely control of your life) can be found in medicine - you just have to search for them. I mean if you really don't want to deal with 'the system', retainer-based practices are becoming increasingly popular. More time, less patients, cash-based ... and you can work for yourself.

If you were to leave medicine for a financial field, the odds are really stacked against you that you will pull in $100k/yr anytime soon, much less the stratospheric levels you seem to be aiming for, and even then you would more than likely still be working for 'the man' (less control over your life).

I'd say the odds are that you will do better for yourself (financially) in medicine than in finance.

 

[rclimb]

First, sorry to hear you're a bit down currently. I imagine it's a stressful time of year with the end of the semester approaching.

A few thoughts from a lowly pre-med.

1. Your opportunity cost calculations... you estimated you could be making $100k/yr if you weren't in med school? If so, I don't blame you for wanting to quit But seriously, high paying jobs like these don't exactly grow on trees. Unless you had an "in" before you started med school, I think it's highly unlikely you would be making anywhere near this much in business. So I think you're overestimating the opportunity cost in that regard. Also, I'm sure you know there are various types of loan repayment/assistance programs available if the debt is a serious consideration to you.

2. What kind of 'extraordinary' income are you looking for? If you're one of the 70% of med students that specialize you can probably expect $200-300k/yr easily, if not more. Is that not enough to make you happy? $277k/yr puts you in the top 1% of households in the US. How much better do you think you can do with a career in finance?

3. Probably not an accurate comparison of med education in US vs. Europe. Theirs may be free, but in many countries their incomes are lower, taxes higher, harder to specialize in what you want, etc. I mean I'm not that familiar with all of them, but it's not all rainbows and unicorns on the other side of the pond.

4. Of course your income as a physicians is usually somewhat tied to "production" whether it be # of operations, # pts seen... whatever. Same as dentists, mechanics and whatever else. There are many docs who have considerably increased their income by doing stuff on the side. Work with devices, other side businesses, etc. There's a thread here, I think it's in finance & investment, called Doctors making $1 million+ or something.

It seems to be like you've realized some of the crap docs have to deal with and feel like you could do better for yourself in another field. You probably do have to have some level of altruism to persist in medicine because of the things you mentioned (lots of work, etc.). I think there has to be some level of satisfaction in your work by means other than monetary compensation. You should feel somewhat fulfilled in your practice. If you're not seeing yourself being happy in any field of medicine whatsoever, then perhaps you should take some time off to think about things.

I also think money is perhaps weighing a bit too much on your mind. In fact, I'd say it was the central issue of your post. If we were to be honest, none of us can say for sure how docs will be compensated 10, 20, 30 years from now. That's why you have to have some level of satisfaction in your work that isn't derived from the compensation. But at the same time, I think a lot of the other things you mentioned (namely control of your life) can be found in medicine - you just have to search for them. I mean if you really don't want to deal with 'the system', retainer-based practices are becoming increasingly popular. More time, less patients, cash-based ... and you can work for yourself.

If you were to leave medicine for a financial field, the odds are really stacked against you that you will pull in $100k/yr anytime soon, much less the stratospheric levels you seem to be aiming for, and even then you would more than likely still be working for 'the man' (less control over your life).

I'd say the odds are that you will do better for yourself (financially) in medicine than in finance.

I rarely take the effort to post but as someone who can empathize with the op (and who is frankly tired of seeing the well named lowly pre-meds chime in to posts about the frustrations of medical school) I feel I can add to the dialogue.

Money is important. If you fail to recognize this you will be a horrible physician. It weighs on the level of care your patients will receive (what treatments they can afford). It directly impacts your few short years of life on this planet. Bottom line. Living 500k in debt for 8 years then trying to repay it is no laughing matter like you seem to think. You will not be truly be earning in the top 1% of house holds until your debt is repayed (early to mid 40's if lucky).

As for loan repayment programs? Your looking at afghanistan (military) or middle of hell nowhere USA, or worst ghetto as all get out USA. Both situations again make it hard to have a family and live happily.

If your not familiar with the foreign system then don't comment on it.

To be valuable and make "money on the side" you have to be an expert in your field. We will all be doctors (Sorry, I mean those of us in medical school, not some one who has not been accepted yet). Very few of us will be "experts" in anything.

You think you can have control of your life in medicine? Did you get that notion from watching Boston med and seeing the two residents trying to pick up chicks (poorly) one evening? Control of your life in med school? NO. Control of your life in residency? HELL NO. Control of your life busting ass to pay off loans, open your own practice (god forbid trying to purchase one with the loans you already got), or work your way into an established practice as low man on the totem pull taking call 3 weekends a month? F NO.

Cash based practice? Did the op say he wanted to be a plastic surgeon or a dermatologist?? You think a fresh resident is going to be working in the hamptoms to get those 'cash based clients'? Have you been watching royal pains now? You sir (or madame) are the unrealistic one.

Sorry for hijacking your thread op. You need people to commiserate with what a tough road of hard decisions and demanding lifestyle you face. Not preachy premed idealistics. Good luck with the rest of your semester and your tough choice.

Premed kid...please save your comments until you have any practical experience. I believe the idealists forum can be found in the pre-allopathic section of this website.

 

[Antibodies]

OP: How old are you? Have you ever worked in finance before?

The fact that you are calling finance more "honest" is pretty hilarious. It tells me you never worked in finance.

 

[UAAWolf]

First year student here, thinking about taking a year leave and giving consideration to pursuing something else.

I'll just list my concerns here....

1) Debt : I'll have to go into around 250k worth of debt when all is said and done. After I pay it off, it will be closer to 400k-500k. Residency will be 3-5 years of 40k/year pay. Even if I take 3 years of 40k/year pay, subtracted from 400k in loans I'll have to pay back, that is still 280k in the red. If I factor in opportunity cost in financial terms of an average of 100k/year, over 7 years, it is costing me approximately ONE MILLION dollars to become a doctor.

2) Income to Work ratio : I can look forward to a comfortable income, but not one which is extrodinary (presuming I don't get into an uber competitive speciality). Even if I do get into a good speciality, that will come at the cost of having to work much harder. I could take my intelligence and pursue business or finance and make a larger salary if I were to become something like a financial engineer or a quant than any doctor except a heavily specalized one. Not to mention that if I go that route I'll have more career flexibility and a better lifestyle to boot.

3) It seems as if students, residents, and doctors are heavily exploited in the medical system. Students by the onerous amount of debt, residents by the insane work hours and low pay, and doctors with the many responsibilities that are shuffled upon them and the lukewarm earnings. I feel as if many people go into this field for the money and status, I certainly feel this way about most of my medical school classmates. And it seems as if everyone's need for status, attention, weath, power, etc. is only making things worse for doctors and students; it all translates into poorer student and doctor quality of life if what is being focused on is how to function best within a healthcare system rather than focusing at least partilly on living a satisified and fulfilled life.

Also, it really bothers me to consider how screwed up our health care system is compared to the European countries, about how those students pay comparitively nothing to become educated, about how people are more healthy and better taken care of...

4) It depresses me heavily to see doctors, residents, and students who are overworked and overcharged for education, to hear about how we all are expected to make sacrificies for the good of patients, despite the fact that effects of our sacrificies only serve to ultimately treat people like cattle, pad a health care corporation's bottom line, or leave us less healthy physically and emotionally.

I'm thinking of switching gears completely, of going into something like financial engineering to try to pursue the career path of a quantative analyst in large financial institutions around the world. The final reason I'm thinking of this is that...

5) You're not really "in control" if your future: Sure, you're in control of what field of medicine you want to go into, and you might be able to start a practice that can generate some profit (although I think its completely appalling to serve in any for profit medical venture, for what it is worth), but there is a glass celling for most of the medical profession. If you're a great surgeon you'll not typically be making a heck of alot more than a good surgeon, etc. It seems like unless you go into academia or research or politics there is a societal and governmental boundary to all which you can accomplish. I don't like to have my hands tied that much... I need to have more control of my future and an unlimited boundary to what I can do and accomplish, and to be able to have incentives to lead me to those goals.

I've started this path not as someone who was in it for the money or prestige, but as someone who had an interest in human affairs, science, and medicine, and who wanted to do a small part to help humanity out. I'm just at a point where I feel that people who are as idealistic as I am aren't wanted in the medical profession, and that all I'll accomplish is to go into deep debt, to waste my time, and to be miserable if I push through. Better to work in something like finance where I'll still work hard, but have more compensation, be in more control of my destiny, and have the satisfaction of knowing that I'm working more "honestly".

Didn't you realize all of this before you even started school? I think part of the reason its tough to get in is because they wanna make sure you think stuff like this through. I feel ya OP...good luck. My opinion: don't quit. Down the road dropping out of med school could probably haunt you...

 

[kcin]

<snip long laundry list about debt and making a good income>

I've started this path not as someone who was in it for the money or prestige, but as someone who had an interest in human affairs, science, and medicine, and who wanted to do a small part to help humanity out.

<snip another paragraph about making money>

Here's a tl;dr for ya.

 

[crock1255]

I went into med school more because of how hard I had worked to get there, rather than how much I actually wanted to be a doctor - which I didn't. I left a few months into school. My grades were fine, I loved the city I was in, and had some great friends...the bottom line is:
If there is ANYTHING you can/want to do other than medicine, you should not be a doctor. Being a doctor is a huge pain in the ass. The hours suck, the people are thankless. You need to like what you do. Especially when you're a doctor. You spend too much time doing it and you'll burn out so quickly if you don't like it. It's a truly all-encompassing profession. My hat goes off to the people who love it. but if it's not you, there's no shame in that.
On the other hand, you can always finish school, do a one year internship, and work for a hedge fund, in biotech, etc. You really can only do this if you go to a top-tier school and have either a strong quant or science background.

Leaving school was the hardest, but best decision I have made in recent memory. I'm much, much happier. Have a clear idea of what I will be doing and am already well on my way to doing it. I will most likely not make anywhere near as much money (though I will be spending much less along the way), but as someone who has many, many interests, hobbies, and goals, med school was much too tunnel-visioned for me.

I say take at least the year, but have something in mind in terms of what you will be doing. Don't take the year and sit on the couch.

Good luck!

 

[MrCheetah]

OP: How old are you? Have you ever worked in finance before?

The fact that you are calling finance more "honest" is pretty hilarious. It tells me you never worked in finance.

Well, I'll suggest to you that you just haven't thought about what "honest" means hard enough then.

Its not exactly "honest" when so many of us proclaim to make sacrifices to others for altrustic merit when its realy our own selves who we are trying to advance. I think that is why people become so miserable in medical school, because they realize they've made a decision which really isn't best for them, but have become so involved in it to the point where it might not be worth it to choose something different.

Its more honest to be a greedy son-of-a-bitch and upfront about it, in my opinion.

 

[motomed]

I think you better make sure this lifestyle/career/money scenario you'd be pursuing actually exists. you're telling me there are people in finance who are making lots of money, with lots of job security, lots of control over their future, don't have to deal with tons of bull****, are generally happy in life, and aren't working very hard to maintain this. I don't think so. the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence...

 

[ProtossCarrier]

Well, I'll suggest to you that you just haven't thought about what "honest" means hard enough then.

Its not exactly "honest" when so many of us proclaim to make sacrifices to others for altrustic merit when its realy our own selves who we are trying to advance. I think that is why people become so miserable in medical school, because they realize they've made a decision which really isn't best for them, but have become so involved in it to the point where it might not be worth it to choose something different.

Its more honest to be a greedy son-of-a-bitch and upfront about it, in my opinion.

intelligence alone doesn't land you big bucks in finance. Medicine is the only place where raw intelligence and ability get you far.

 

[bucks2010]

I rarely take the effort to post but as someone who can empathize with the op (and who is frankly tired of seeing the well named lowly pre-meds chime in to posts about the frustrations of medical school) I feel I can add to the dialogue.

Money is important. If you fail to recognize this you will be a horrible physician. It weighs on the level of care your patients will receive (what treatments they can afford). It directly impacts your few short years of life on this planet. Bottom line. Living 500k in debt for 8 years then trying to repay it is no laughing matter like you seem to think. You will not be truly be earning in the top 1% of house holds until your debt is repayed (early to mid 40's if lucky).

As for loan repayment programs? Your looking at afghanistan (military) or middle of hell nowhere USA, or worst ghetto as all get out USA. Both situations again make it hard to have a family and live happily.

If your not familiar with the foreign system then don't comment on it.

To be valuable and make "money on the side" you have to be an expert in your field. We will all be doctors (Sorry, I mean those of us in medical school, not some one who has not been accepted yet). Very few of us will be "experts" in anything.

You think you can have control of your life in medicine? Did you get that notion from watching Boston med and seeing the two residents trying to pick up chicks (poorly) one evening? Control of your life in med school? NO. Control of your life in residency? HELL NO. Control of your life busting ass to pay off loans, open your own practice (god forbid trying to purchase one with the loans you already got), or work your way into an established practice as low man on the totem pull taking call 3 weekends a month? F NO.

Cash based practice? Did the op say he wanted to be a plastic surgeon or a dermatologist?? You think a fresh resident is going to be working in the hamptoms to get those 'cash based clients'? Have you been watching royal pains now? You sir (or madame) are the unrealistic one.

Sorry for hijacking your thread op. You need people to commiserate with what a tough road of hard decisions and demanding lifestyle you face. Not preachy premed idealistics. Good luck with the rest of your semester and your tough choice.

Premed kid...please save your comments until you have any practical experience. I believe the idealists forum can be found in the pre-allopathic section of this website.

this is cute.

do you seriously think I implied that any of my suggestions were easy? it's not easy for anyone to 'make it big'. it takes work. that's life.

but neither will it be easy for OP to 'make it big' in finance.

you might think twice next time about making some sort of false assumption of naivete.

 

[Bartelby]

I've started this path not as someone who was in it for the money or prestige, but as someone who had an interest in human affairs, science, and medicine, and who wanted to do a small part to help humanity out... Better to work in something like finance where I'll still work hard, but have more compensation, be in more control of my destiny, and have the satisfaction of knowing that I'm working more "honestly".

Are you serious? Being a "quant" is better aligned with your goal of advancing "human affairs, science, and medicine" and doing your "small part to help humanity out?" You also talk about how you are not in it for the money or prestige but mention repeatedly how the money isn't good enough. And do you really think being a "quant" for some financial analysis firm is more honest work than being a great surgeon who works for change from within the system and provides the best care to patients?

I am normally quite sympathetic to students who want to quit, I was there myself in first year, but I'm not getting a coherent idea about what you think is wrong with medicine. If you complete med school you will work overly hard (that's true) but you will likely make enough to be comfortable if your goal is really just having enough to live a modest but comfortable lifestyle, and however much medicine may have become a business I just don't buy that financial analysts do better and more honest work.

In the end follow your interests, but think carefully about why you are really doing what you're doing.

 

[Seven of Nine]

I rarely take the effort to post but as someone who can empathize with the op (and who is frankly tired of seeing the well named lowly pre-meds chime in to posts about the frustrations of medical school) I feel I can add to the dialogue.

rclimb, can you update your status please? people may think you are also one of those lowly pre-meds. your post, admittedly one that hijacked the original thread, came off more as a rant against naive pre-meds rather than actually commiserating with the OP. perhaps there is more to add to the dialogue? medicine is indubitably an incredibly hard profession to enter, with sacrifices not only being made in free time and youth but also financially and in acknowledgement. i think this OP is challenged (and has to come to terms with if s/he is to continue on this path) by the discrepancy between the often pre-med ideal of medicine and reality. to others, this is no surprise.

Are you serious? ... You also talk about how you are not in it for the money or prestige but mention repeatedly how the money isn't good enough. ... but I'm not getting a coherent idea about what you think is wrong with medicine. ... In the end follow your interests, but think carefully about why you are really doing what you're doing.

+1

op, this is a serious contemplation for you. there is always a possibility you may be in the wrong profession. do you have any mentors with whom you can talk? also, i would recommend making an appointment with a financial aid advisor at your school. they often play more of a role than the new student assumes in strategizing management of debt, types of housing to get, etc etc. like bartelby says, there are some conflicting points in your post that are concerning. i would be worried you have an ideal but flawed view of other professions similar to the ideal view of medicine you once held.

 

[Democritus]

I rarely take the effort to post but as someone who can empathize with the op (and who is frankly tired of seeing the well named lowly pre-meds chime in to posts about the frustrations of medical school) I feel I can add to the dialogue.

Money is important. If you fail to recognize this you will be a horrible physician. It weighs on the level of care your patients will receive (what treatments they can afford). It directly impacts your few short years of life on this planet. Bottom line. Living 500k in debt for 8 years then trying to repay it is no laughing matter like you seem to think. You will not be truly be earning in the top 1% of house holds until your debt is repayed (early to mid 40's if lucky).

As for loan repayment programs? Your looking at afghanistan (military) or middle of hell nowhere USA, or worst ghetto as all get out USA. Both situations again make it hard to have a family and live happily.

If your not familiar with the foreign system then don't comment on it.

To be valuable and make "money on the side" you have to be an expert in your field. We will all be doctors (Sorry, I mean those of us in medical school, not some one who has not been accepted yet). Very few of us will be "experts" in anything.

You think you can have control of your life in medicine? Did you get that notion from watching Boston med and seeing the two residents trying to pick up chicks (poorly) one evening? Control of your life in med school? NO. Control of your life in residency? HELL NO. Control of your life busting ass to pay off loans, open your own practice (god forbid trying to purchase one with the loans you already got), or work your way into an established practice as low man on the totem pull taking call 3 weekends a month? F NO.

Cash based practice? Did the op say he wanted to be a plastic surgeon or a dermatologist?? You think a fresh resident is going to be working in the hamptoms to get those 'cash based clients'? Have you been watching royal pains now? You sir (or madame) are the unrealistic one.

Sorry for hijacking your thread op. You need people to commiserate with what a tough road of hard decisions and demanding lifestyle you face. Not preachy premed idealistics. Good luck with the rest of your semester and your tough choice.

Premed kid...please save your comments until you have any practical experience. I believe the idealists forum can be found in the pre-allopathic section of this website.

I think we all have a baseline low knowledge of other fields on average (pre med and medical student alike). Discussing potential profit and salaries in finance is something premeds and medical students are equally qualified to do.

There's really nothing special about your situation, so please stop trying to be so exclusive. It's not that hard to understand.

Disclaimer (although it shouldn't really matter): I've been accepted for co2015

 

[Jlaw]

Just wanted to comment on the finance/quant thing. You might make more money than a doctor but you will work more than 95% of physicians. As a former trader who is trying to get into medicine I can attest that anyone who made any real money at my hedge fund pretty much ate breathed and slept their jobs. It was also very cut throat, you could make the company millions but one screw up meant your job.

If you can put up with the competetiveness, grueling hours, and lack of job security, then the money is great. I was a nobody with a BS from a no name school who landed a finance job and after two years was making more than some doctors.

Anyway just food for thought, the grass isn't always greener, you will find that anyone making alot of money will be working alot whether they are a doctor, lawyer, trader, entrepeneur, etc.

 

[VisionaryTics]

Just wanted to comment on the finance/quant thing. You might make more money than a doctor but you will work more than 95% of physicians. As a former trader who is trying to get into medicine I can attest that anyone who made any real money at my hedge fund pretty much ate breathed and slept their jobs. It was also very cut throat, you could make the company millions but one screw up meant your job.

Listen, buddy, I'm a 23-year-old with no real life experience, and I know for a fact that every other profession aside from medicine works 20 hour weeks for $400k a year, with very little effort.

Nobody works hard or is competitive outside of medicine. Don't you know that? Everybody else is getting everything handed to them, while we are DUPES for working hard.

 

[MrCheetah]

Listen, buddy, I'm a 23-year-old with no real life experience, and I know for a fact that every other profession aside from medicine works 20 hour weeks for $400k a year, with very little effort.

Nobody works hard or is competitive outside of medicine. Don't you know that? Everybody else is getting everything handed to them, while we are DUPES for working hard.

You're post is facetious, of course, however I think what you write just may be slightly more accurate than you think.

 

[MrCheetah]

Just wanted to comment on the finance/quant thing. You might make more money than a doctor but you will work more than 95% of physicians. As a former trader who is trying to get into medicine I can attest that anyone who made any real money at my hedge fund pretty much ate breathed and slept their jobs. It was also very cut throat, you could make the company millions but one screw up meant your job.

If you can put up with the competetiveness, grueling hours, and lack of job security, then the money is great. I was a nobody with a BS from a no name school who landed a finance job and after two years was making more than some doctors.

Anyway just food for thought, the grass isn't always greener, you will find that anyone making alot of money will be working alot whether they are a doctor, lawyer, trader, entrepeneur, etc.

And correct me if I'm wrong Jlaw, but from what I hear being a quant is much different than being a trader, specifically in terms of job security.

 

[aerodoc]

And correct me if I'm wrong Jlaw, but from what I hear being a quant is much different than being a trader, specifically in terms of job security.

You're right, being a doctor is lame, you should do that instead! I heard you'd only have to work 30 hour weeks, after two years you'll be making over 200k a year, never have to worry about job security, and on the weekends be jetting around to exotic locals in the company Gulfstream popping bottles of Cristal HOLLAAAAAA!!!

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Threads like this one are exactly why I wish everyone had to work full-time for a year or two prior to applying. I don't mean sitting in a research lab and retaking the MCAT during a gap year; I mean working. OP - you know not of what you speak, outside of medical school being expensive and brutal. It's already been said - the grass is always greener.

 

[BairN]

Quit. Try finance. See how unidealistic, abusive and thankless business can be.

 

[UofT9919]

The bottom line is you will have to work really hard and sacrifice a lot to make money in any profession. Med is all about delayed gratification.

 

[Siverhideo1985]

After first year I was roughly $50K in the hole...if you're in the same boat (which I am assuming because you talk about loans & paying them back) then quitting now means a 50k burden with nothing to show for the last year and the certainty that no matter what job you apply for you will always have to answer "so, why did you drop outta med school". Convincing people that it was a personal choice will be difficult.

You may contemplate if medicine is for you right now, but contemplate the consequences of quitting even more so.

I'm not advertising sticking with something that makes you absolutely miserable but, in your situation, I'd wonder if I was transferring from one miserable state to the next.

Keep in mind the versatility of a medical degree down the road and contrast it with the other possible paths you can take at this point. Weigh the pros and cons and stick with your choice, whatever it may be.

Good luck!

 

[Darwinism]

Why is it that every time there is a thread about dropping out, its based primarily on money/debt? I've never met a doctor who was struggling financially, nor one who regretted their decision to go into medicine.

OP, goodluck with your decision, but just remember that you have come this far already.

 

[sideways]

You're falling into the same trap that got you into med school in the first place: chasing the dollar. As long as you do that, you're ****ed. So if that's going to be your guide, you might as well ride out med school. But just so you know, studies show increased wealth doesn't lead to happiness. Especially when the sacrifice for that wealth is your life.

So if you really want to be happy, stop trying to make a ton of money. You're like a cat chasimg its tail, and you contemplating finance is just further evidence of this.

Become a teacher and spend your free time surfing, hiking, reading, and ****ing. That's happiness.

 

[motomed]

Threads like this one are exactly why I wish everyone had to work full-time for a year or two prior to applying. I don't mean sitting in a research lab and retaking the MCAT during a gap year; I mean working. OP - you know not of what you speak, outside of medical school being expensive and brutal. It's already been said - the grass is always greener.

agree totally. way too many kids applying to med school as it is right now. was filling out some financial aid paperwork today and laughed a little when asked how long it'd been since my parents were able to claim me as a dependant.

 

[Siverhideo1985]

But just so you know, studies show increased wealth doesn't lead to happiness. Especially when the sacrifice for that wealth is your life.

Actually, since you mentioned this - in a study I recently heard about it said that happiness increases proportionally with increasing income up until an annual salary in the $60k range and after that the correlation loses statistical significance.

Thought that was interesting.

 

[housegambler]

Why is it that every time there is a thread about dropping out, its based primarily on money/debt? I've never met a doctor who was struggling financially, nor one who regretted their decision to go into medicine.

OP, goodluck with your decision, but just remember that you have come this far already.

Probably because you haven't met enough doctors and I doubt any doctor you met while volunteering or shadowing will tell you about their financial situation.

 

[sideways]

Actually, since you mentioned this - in a study I recently heard about it said that happiness increases proportionally with increasing income up until an annual salary in the $60k range and after that the correlation loses statistical significance.

Thought that was interesting.

Yeah, the studies indicate you need a certain baseline of income to have creature comforts, decent housing, etc. But everyone on here thinks making 400k is the secret to happiness, and are willing to sacrifice much of their life chasing this illusion.

 

[smq123]

As for loan repayment programs? Your looking at afghanistan (military) or middle of hell nowhere USA, or worst ghetto as all get out USA. Both situations again make it hard to have a family and live happily.

Actually, the loan repayment programs aren't all that bad, and have their own perks to them. Underserved loan repayment has a few job openings in some pretty neat areas to live. You won't be living in downtown Manhattan or downtown LA, but if you're one of the many people who don't mind that, then they're not bad programs to look into.

Furthermore, a number of jobs offer signing bonuses or flat-out loan repayment for X number of years.

You think you can have control of your life in medicine? Did you get that notion from watching Boston med and seeing the two residents trying to pick up chicks (poorly) one evening? Control of your life in med school? NO. Control of your life in residency? HELL NO. Control of your life busting ass to pay off loans, open your own practice (god forbid trying to purchase one with the loans you already got), or work your way into an established practice as low man on the totem pull taking call 3 weekends a month? F NO.

Actually, you CAN have some control over your life in medicine - as much as you can reasonably expect in any job, really.

Why can't you have control of your life in med school (at least during MS1 and MS2)? You may not be able to go out and have fun every weekend AND make AOA, but you can do so and pull decent grades if you budget your time wisely.

You can also have control of your life in residency IF YOU LEARN TO SET BOUNDARIES. That means that when you're off service, you're OFF. Pager is off. Cell phone is on vibrate. Only check your email now and then. When I'm not needed, I leave my pager at home.

You don't have to open your own practice if you don't want to. Unless you're that ambitious and are an entrepreneur at heart, you certainly don't have to.

No one makes you take call 3 weekends a month as a new attending, either, unless you ask for it. It's called CONTRACT NEGOTIATION when you start with your first job. If it's in your contract and you don't negotiate it, or if you're stupid enough to not ask what the call schedule for the next few years will be like, then you have to accept the punishment that you've called upon yourself.

(Actually, I find it very hard to believe that a new practice would force you to take so many weekends of call....they'd find it hard to find someone new to hire if they did!)

Premed kid...please save your comments until you have any practical experience. I believe the idealists forum can be found in the pre-allopathic section of this website.

Actually, I didn't find Bucks2010's post to be all that inaccurate. Your post, on the other hand, was quite melodramatic and histrionic. Medicine has its downsides, but it's not ALL bad.

I've started this path not as someone who was in it for the money or prestige, but as someone who had an interest in human affairs, science, and medicine, and who wanted to do a small part to help humanity out. I'm just at a point where I feel that people who are as idealistic as I am aren't wanted in the medical profession, and that all I'll accomplish is to go into deep debt, to waste my time, and to be miserable if I push through. Better to work in something like finance where I'll still work hard, but have more compensation, be in more control of my destiny, and have the satisfaction of knowing that I'm working more "honestly".

For someone who didn't go into this because you were "in it for the money," you sure put a lot of emphasis on being in the top 1% of wage-earners. But I digress.

Take a year off. See if the grass really IS greener on the neighbor's yard. It sounds more like you're having a quarter-life crisis, and not really having an epiphany that you belong in finance or something. You can always come back if you realize that, oh crap, other jobs are equally as draining, tiring, and make you feel like you're helpless and have no control over your destiny.

 

[Darwinism]

Probably because you haven't met enough doctors and I doubt any doctor you met while volunteering or shadowing will tell you about their financial situation.

I don't need to ask when I see them driving $80,000 cars and living in mansions on golf courses and ****. But actually, I work in a hospital, and I work closely with many physicians. If you think i'm under the assumption that after graduation I will be living the good life and blowing money fast, you're wrong. That is the delusion that a lot of people have about their lives in general. I am not someone going into medicine for money anyways so I really don't care. I'll pay my loans over years, and be able to live just fine.

 

[shadowfox87]

Another dropping out thread...I don't understand why if you've already made up your mind that people post these. Is it because deep inside, you want us to convince you or give a good reason to not quit?

There will always be *******s in every field. Those *******s will be jealous of the enthusiasm that you have for medicine rather than your desire for money. This exists in almost every med school. If you truly have enthusiasm for science, then don't let those people affect you.

 

[MrCheetah]

Another dropping out thread...I don't understand why if you've already made up your mind that people post these. Is it because deep inside, you want us to convince you or give a good reason to not quit?

There will always be *******s in every field. Those *******s will be jealous of the enthusiasm that you have for medicine rather than your desire for money. This exists in almost every med school. If you truly have enthusiasm for science, then don't let those people affect you.

Its because I'm looking for perspectives on my life choice which I may find useful, either way.

I just want to express that I find most everyone's comments to be rather unhelpful for my situation, from either perspective. Some of you are okay, but to the rest: Thanks for nothing.

 

[VoiceofReason]

literally every job sucks

 

[Pons Asinorum]

literally every job sucks

Riker just said the smartest thing that will appear on SDN today. You are my current hero-of-the-concise.

 

[Mr hawkings]

Its because I'm looking for perspectives on my life choice which I may find useful, either way.

I just want to express that I find most everyone's comments to be rather unhelpful for my situation, from either perspective. Some of you are okay, but to the rest: Thanks for nothing.

You should quit TODAY.

the reason you find the perspectives unhelpful is because they dont confirm what you believe. Your mind is made up and anything anyone says that goes against your belief will sound like a personal attack.
DO IT

 

[Jlaw]

And correct me if I'm wrong Jlaw, but from what I hear being a quant is much different than being a trader, specifically in terms of job security.

Not at all. I'm using trader in a generic sense as there are many different functions. Most "traders" at a buy side firm (i.e. hedge fund) are portfolio managers who actively trade a part of the funds money. Traders on the sell side (at a bank/brokerage) are market makers/stock brokers. Quants typically analyze the market quantatively and use that information to place traders. They write computer programs, do analysis of different trends and use technical indicators to try to predict what will happen in the future based on what has happened in the past.

Doing this is really no safer than any other job. You can make alot of money but the risk is still very high because basically every quant shop comes up with the same strategies so you have alot of people in on the trades with you. That is one reason why volatility is so high these days. Spikes like the flash crash and other huge market moves are often caused, or at least magnified by quant driven selling.

Anyway my main point is that as a well paid quant you would probably still be working doctor like hours. Remember that in med school and residency you put in the time. This is no different than clawing your way up from a starting position in a hedge fund. If you want to make good money you will have to pay your dues.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

And it goes without saying that a junior analyst or trader has no work-hour restrictions to protect them. 100 hour weeks are still the norm in some areas.

 

[MagicalTrevor]

Listen, buddy, I'm a 23-year-old with no real life experience, and I know for a fact that every other profession aside from medicine works 20 hour weeks for $400k a year, with very little effort.

Nobody works hard or is competitive outside of medicine. Don't you know that? Everybody else is getting everything handed to them, while we are DUPES for working hard.

While you do have a point - you guys really aren't looking at the full picture here. I have a bunch of friends who I went to high school with so I know pretty well what level of work ethic they're at and how smart they are. I have 3 friends who landed Investment Banking jobs after their 4 year bachelor degree in commerce or whatever. With bonuses included on top of their salary they made low 6 figures straight out of the gate plus the perks you get (free lunches, cab fair paid for, dinner paid for if you stay late etc.). Basically, aside from rent they have no real expenses and have an enormous income. Now you're probably saying, but its I-banking its SUPER HARD to get into. Consider who goes into business school. I know complete idiots who graduated from business school with decent grades and later went into marketing or accounting. It is not that hard though to put in a decent amount of effort and come out at the top of the grade curve in business school to land these jobs. I would bet that everyone of the people on here who got into decent med schools on their first try would have been able to land these jobs. Someone else commented here on how It's cutthroat and you work lots of hours ~70-80 a week, but consider two people. One goes to med school the other becomes an investment banker. Over the 4 years the med student's in school, the i-banker is climbing up the ranks from junior analyst to senior analyst then he goes back to school to get an MBA paid for by the firm then comes back as an associate making equivalent money to an average doctor. Then the med student goes to residency lets say for 5 years. Over this time the i-bankers either making the push to get up to become a VP in the company or he's figuring out some options to jump ship into a more cushy job at a hedge fund or in another company and basically figuring out a way to market his skills around. By the time, the medical student gets out of residency - the I-banker will either be one of the VPs at the company ballin' out of control with cash or in a cushier job of his choosing still making good money. At the end of the day, the med student finishes residency with a giant debtload having gone to class & studied his ass off at easily an equivalent 70 hours a week to the I-banker - while the I-banker has been eating all his paid for meals and basically putting all his giant disposable income into savings or personal investments.

The pre-med kid in this thread seems to think that "6 figure jobs don't grow on trees, man; becoming a doctor is the only way out of the 'hood, yo." I disagree strongly. The guy posting in this thread will have no problems nailing down one of these jobs. You don't need an "in". This isn't the ****ing Illuminati. Out of my 3 friends, NONE had any hookups to the jobs they're currently working - in fact 2 of them are doctor's kids. To land one of these jobs pretty much all you have to do is not go to a ****ty school with a ****ty business program & stop taking bong hits a few weeks before your exams in business school and actually study so that you can come ahead of the 10% of your business class that aren't ******s who will end up in marketing.

 

[MagicalTrevor]

I don't need to ask when I see them driving $80,000 cars and living in mansions on golf courses and ****. But actually, I work in a hospital, and I work closely with many physicians. If you think i'm under the assumption that after graduation I will be living the good life and blowing money fast, you're wrong. That is the delusion that a lot of people have about their lives in general. I am not someone going into medicine for money anyways so I really don't care. I'll pay my loans over years, and be able to live just fine.

People - doctors included have a tendency to live beyond their means. Do you know if they bought that car or is it a lease? Do you know if that mansion is paid down? Maybe it has a double mortgage on it. Unless by "working closely" you mean you're getting freaky underneath the covers with them on the weekend - I doubt they're going to show you their tax forms and finance spreadsheets. Furthermore, most doctors I've come across out there have been middle-aged - frankly, I'd be pretty worried if the doctors who's been working for 25 years doesn't have a fat bottom line. If a doctor's living paycheck to paycheck in his 50's not due to any recklessness on his part, that means the system is a ****ing joke.

 

[musafirah]

lol i just find it ironic that you're talking about being disillusioned with faked altruism in healthcare, padding the bottom line of corporations, dissatisfied because you didn't find it good enough to do "your small part to help out humanity" and of course the inadequate compensation, and then totally contradict it all by saying you want to work in finance.. lmao. and you think that will make you happier? there is a lot of things doctors can control, they can control how "honest" they are for one thing while still making a good living..

 

[motomed]

People - doctors included have a tendency to live beyond their means. Do you know if they bought that car or is it a lease? Do you know if that mansion is paid down? Maybe it has a double mortgage on it. Unless by "working closely" you mean you're getting freaky underneath the covers with them on the weekend - I doubt they're going to show you their tax forms and finance spreadsheets. Furthermore, most doctors I've come across out there have been middle-aged - frankly, I'd be pretty worried if the doctors who's been working for 25 years doesn't have a fat bottom line. If a doctor's living paycheck to paycheck in his 50's not due to any recklessness on his part, that means the system is a ****ing joke.

the fact of the matter is most every doctor out there is more than capable of living a rather comfortable lifestyle if they so choose. I don't feel sorry for anyone who lives beyond their means, enjoys all their toys, and then stresses about it when they're still not happy. knocking medicine because of the money is ridiculous. the system isn't a ****ing joke, ideas some people have about what is going to make them happy is a ****ing joke.

 

[MagicalTrevor]

the fact of the matter is most every doctor out there is more than capable of living a rather comfortable lifestyle if they so choose. I don't feel sorry for anyone who lives beyond their means, enjoys all their toys, and then stresses about it when they're still not happy. knocking medicine because of the money is ridiculous. the system isn't a ****ing joke, ideas some people have about what is going to make them happy is a ****ing joke.

Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension, bro. I was responding to a guy who was saying that he doesn't even have to ask doctors what their bottom line looks like because they're driving ballin' cars and living in mansions. He was insinuating that because every doctor he has met has APPEARED to be financially secure and has not EXPLICITLY told him that they are not financially secure (because he doesn't need to ask) - that ALL doctors shouldn't have any need whatsoever to worry about finances and shouldn't be fixated on money and debt.

That's it. If someone is irresponsible with money, I fully agree that they should face the consequences of their actions. I was simply responding to his statement. Since he seems so averse to the thought of doctors driving 80,000 dollar cars and living in mansions that they may not even be able to afford, I decided to paint the opposite picture where the same doctor was now not driving the 80,000 dollar car which he may not even own and was instead living paycheck to paycheck. Since that would be ridiculous, it stands to reason that the way things are now are fine the way they are and "Darwinism" should wait until he's actually an attending or hell even a medical student - before he discounts the salary he hasn't even started making yet.

 

[boobelle]

I think you better make sure this lifestyle/career/money scenario you'd be pursuing actually exists. you're telling me there are people in finance who are making lots of money, with lots of job security, lots of control over their future, don't have to deal with tons of bull****, are generally happy in life, and aren't working very hard to maintain this. I don't think so. the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence...

My first thought in reading the OP's post was that my, the economy must be getting better. When I started med school it was a little depressing in that a fair number of my college classmates were making ridiculous amounts of money on Wall Street. All but 1 of those people have since lost their jobs, and a fair number are still unemployed....and frankly many are now going back to grad school. (And these are people with amazing credentials and had the best shot at doing well in the finance...and, frankly, when they were working had hours that were similar to that of a resident.)

OP, in the very least, your post comes off *screaming* that you went into medicine for the money (every problem you cite is about $$)...and have just now come to the realization it's not the most lucrative profession in the world. Maybe your post is an unfair representation of your state of mine, maybe not. It's fine to admit that money is the most important factor for you in determining your happiness, and if it is and if you do feel the way you state in your post it's probably better to get out now. The students, residents and attendings that I've known and are the happiest all love *medicine itself* and didn't go into it for the financial side in the first place....but don't kid yourself that there are plenty of jobs out there where you can make high six-figure salaries with little effort and no personal sacrifices (for one thing, you'd be sacrificing your career in medicine, which you seemed to want at one point...). Good luck in figuring it all out.

 

[motomed]

Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension, bro. I was responding to a guy who was saying that he doesn't even have to ask doctors what their bottom line looks like because they're driving ballin' cars and living in mansions. He was insinuating that because every doctor he has met has APPEARED to be financially secure and has not EXPLICITLY told him that they are not financially secure (because he doesn't need to ask) - that ALL doctors shouldn't have any need whatsoever to worry about finances and shouldn't be fixated on money and debt.

That's it. If someone is irresponsible with money, I fully agree that they should face the consequences of their actions. I was simply responding to his statement. Since he seems so averse to the thought of doctors driving 80,000 dollar cars and living in mansions that they may not even be able to afford, I decided to paint the opposite picture where the same doctor was now not driving the 80,000 dollar car which he may not even own and was instead living paycheck to paycheck. Since that would be ridiculous, it stands to reason that the way things are now are fine the way they are and "Darwinism" should wait until he's actually an attending or hell even a medical student - before he discounts the salary he hasn't even started making yet.

ok? I think you read too much into what darwin said.... I pretty much agree with him. whether they're driving ballin cars and living in mansions because they're actually able to do so comfortably, or because they're living beyond their means and their bottom line currently sucks, the same point is made. that would be that doctors make plenty of money to live comfortably. you seemed to be saying that if they were living above their means and driving a car they couldn't afford that that somehow meant we should all be concerned about how much docs are making. whatever, I'm a good reader!

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

You should quit and do what you want. Being smart isn't enough to move you forward in the business world. This is the only field where you can get ahead purley based on scores (for the most part). Finance/business are all who you know and how well you can work them. Most of us on the forums can barely talk in front of class let alone being able to spin a presentation to a CEOs and tell them why their company should trust you with millions to invest.

I think everyone here has seen Wall Street or Pursuit of Happiness one too many times and thinks it's a pretty easy job and anyone of the street can do it.

I think you should quit, just so we have one less person in the future who is an angry doctor that's telling other people don't do it! Be a porn star instead, it has a better lifestyle.

I sometimes wanna drop out and go into a field where I can wake up every morning when I want, eat as much as I want without gaining weight, play video games all day, party all the time, and then go to sleep whenever I want. I really want to drop out to pursue that dream job.

 

[medstudent87]

You should quit and do what you want. Being smart isn't enough to move you forward in the business world. This is the only field where you can get ahead purley based on scores (for the most part). Finance/business are all who you know and how well you can work them. Most of us on the forums can barely talk in front of class let alone being able to spin a presentation to a CEOs and tell them why their company should trust you with millions to invest.

I think everyone here has seen Wall Street or Pursuit of Happiness one too many times and thinks it's a pretty easy job and anyone of the street can do it.

I think you should quit, just so we have one less person in the future who is an angry doctor that's telling other people don't do it! Be a porn star instead, it has a better lifestyle.

I sometimes wanna drop out and go into a field where I can wake up every morning when I want, eat as much as I want without gaining weight, play video games all day, party all the time, and then go to sleep whenever I want. I really want to drop out to pursue that dream job.

...but how much does it pay?

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

...but how much does it pay?

Oooh good point. I forgot that is the most important. Atleast 1 million dollars. So I can live comfortably but not spoil myself either. This way I can send little Suzy and Jimmy John to a nice private school and also afford the new Audi. I also want to buy a house so I can live as far away from the patients I treat because inside nobody likes them.

Dang, I think I just described a Radiologist.

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

No offense to any Rads people.

 

[MagicalTrevor]

Actually, you're not a good reader at all. I was saying that things are fine the way they are and yes doctors do make a salary that allows them to live comfortably. Darwin was backing up his claims of all doctors being financially secure and noone ever having any complaints whatsoever with claims of 80,000 dollar cars and mansions. See when you argue, you examine the basis of people's statements and the validity of said statements. I could say:

Why is it that every time there is a thread about landscaping laborers, its based primarily on money/debt? I've never met a landscaping laborer who was struggling financially, nor one who regretted their decision to go into garden-tending.

>> Random Guy: Have you actually talked to these landscaping laborers, had a look at their numbers, or have firsthand knowledge as a landscaper? It sounds like you're full of ****?

I don't need to ask when I see them driving 69 Chevy low-riders with 20" inch rims, 600RMS sub-woofers, and custom paint jobs, DUH. But actually, I get some occasional gardening done, and I work closely with many gardeners when they're mucking around in my backyard. If you think i'm under the assumption that after landscaping 1 shift orientation, I will be living the good life and blowing money fast, you're wrong. That is the delusion that a lot of people have about their lives in general. I am not someone going into landscaping for money anyways so I really don't care. I'll pay for my chrome rims over years, and be able to live just fine.

Wow from the above statement you can see that I actually have no experience whatsoever in landscaping and am making totally baseless blanket statements. No worries though because maybe in 10 years where I actually become what I'm talking about - I will still be in the same frame of mind and think exactly the same way. Experiences don't change me! Therefore since I'm gonna be thinking exactly the same in 10 years - it's pretty much like I'm already doctor!

Darwin's lecturing medical students and physicians about something that he has no first hand knowledge about based on some half-baked assumptions. Do you think it's appropriate to lecture people with first hand knowledge about something of which you have no knowledge whatsoever?

P.S. I was gonna break down your comment, but it actually made no ****ing sense! ****it here goes: Doctors do make enough to live comfortably, but they still have remain "fixated on their finances and debt load." But wait - Darwin thinks students and doctors shouldn't be so "fixated on their finances or debt load". Then the second half of your comment. What the **** are you talking about? I was saying that if a doctor has been "living comfortably" and being conservative with his money and was broke that wouldn't make much sense right?!! See when you argue you often describe something much different to your opponent to find something you can agree on to both be true. Darwin was describing a world where all doctors live on golf courses and drive 80,000 cars and do not care about money. In the world, there's a thing called money and if you don't have enough of it you can get loans and look like you have more money than you actually own. Someone who doesn't really know you could then think that you are actually super rich when you are not. Then if you have a really small sample size you could then think everyone in that group is super rich!! Lets try an example: My neighbor works in construction - if he double mortgages his house and puts the downpayment on a Ferrari and doesn't show me any of his finances. I'd probably think he's rich!! Then since I only know one guy in construction - i'd think that everyone in construction is rich even though if I used common sense i'd realize that it is very unlikely that everyone in construction has a Ferrari. If I actually had DATA to back up my claims that everyone in medicine has an 80,000 car and a mansion then i'd have something. How in god's name did you manage to extrapolate from that logic that I was worried that doctors weren't making enough?

TLDR: Darwin has no factual basis for any of his claims and no first hand knowledge on the topic in discussion. Therefore, he is an idiot. You have further proven you have no reading comprehension skills. You are also an idiot.