Its Official: MD/DPM Program Being Investigated

[mrfeet]

I just thought I would let everyone know that Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science, which is the home of the Scholl College of Podiatric Medicine is currently exploring a joint MD/DPM program. This program would be held in conjunction with the Chicago Medical School at RFU and would grant entering DPM students the right to obtain their MD degree as well. Ofcourse, this is still in the investigation stages and it will take several years before such a program can be implemented. The APMA, AMA, CPME, and LCME will all have to agree to such an endeavor, but if implemented it would be the first of its kind and would revolutionize podiatric medical education.

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[cool_vkb]

I just thought I would let everyone know that Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science, which is the home of the Scholl College of Podiatric Medicine is currently exploring a joint MD/DPM program. This program would be held in conjunction with the Chicago Medical School at RFU and would grant entering DPM students the right to obtain their MD degree as well. Ofcourse, this is still in the investigation stages and it will take several years before such a program can be implemented. The APMA, AMA, CPME, and LCME will all have to agree to such an endeavor, but if implemented it would be the first of its kind and would revolutionize podiatric medical education.

So how many years u think it would take roughly.

 

[doclm]

I just thought I would let everyone know that Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science, which is the home of the Scholl College of Podiatric Medicine is currently exploring a joint MD/DPM program. This program would be held in conjunction with the Chicago Medical School at RFU and would grant entering DPM students the right to obtain their MD degree as well. Ofcourse, this is still in the investigation stages and it will take several years before such a program can be implemented. The APMA, AMA, CPME, and LCME will all have to agree to such an endeavor, but if implemented it would be the first of its kind and would revolutionize podiatric medical education.

Hey MrFeet,

Who did you hear this from?
Sounds like some good news.

Hey, are you heading down south for Thanksgiving? I don't remember if I asked you yesterday or not.

Later.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

It sounds good but I don't know if it will be very practial. From what I have heard the DO/DPM program in FL is a flop. I just think that if you want to be a DPM you become a DPM.

 

[krabmas]

It sounds good but I don't know if it will be very practial. From what I have heard the DO/DPM program in FL is a flop. I just think that if you want to be a DPM you become a DPM.

No offense Feelgood, but I do not think that statement is a very effective approach.

It seems like that is what many pods have been saying for a while, while others continue to find a way to double the degree or add to it.

I think that DPM/MD negates what 2015 is trying to do.

If DPM/MD does become a real posibility it will be interesting to see what the other pod schools do to match it.

DPM/MD if it does not take too much more time may actually be the better way to go in achieving the 2015 goal. There just has to be a way to be sure that these people stay pods and contribute to the profession.

Once someone gets the MD there is not stopping them from becoming FP, OBGYN, or whatever....

What does everyone else think?

We should have a real conversation about this.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I understand what you are saying but I guess it goes back to what you think 2015 is for. My opinion it is to clear up scope issues and to create a medical school approach to podiatric schools. I think that too many schools do not give students a strong background in all areas of medicine.

My comment was more in the spirit of most people won't stay and pay for an extra 3 years if they can get a DPM and practice. I didn't mean DPMs want to be separate from MDs. As I read it again, it sound a little rebel-ish.

 

[AZPOD Rocks]

It sounds good but I don't know if it will be very practial. From what I have heard the DO/DPM program in FL is a flop. I just think that if you want to be a DPM you become a DPM.

There seems to be an undercurrent where people believe no one should have interests outside of clinical practice. A DPM will open doors but for some, those doors only represent a portion of what they would like to do with their lives. Some would like to have the opportunity to explore areas where the DPM and another degree open previously closed doors.

I'm doing a Masters in Education because I do not intend to be only a clinician but would enjoy education, too. I can understand why others would be interested in the DPM/MD if they want to be more focused on, let's say, diabetes management. Not only could they be the diabetic's best friend from the knee down but could be trained in medically managing their entire diabetic patient, as well. I don't think I'd be interested in this route but can see why someone would be.

AZPOD Rocks

 

[jonwill]

Not only could they be the diabetic's best friend from the knee down but could be trained in medically managing their entire diabetic patient, as well.

AZPOD Rocks

Actually, this is not true. Unless you did a residency in FP or IM, you really wouldn't be qualified to medically manage anything. Now, here is the fun part. Find me ONE MD/DO residency that would honor this supposed degree.

I think it is much more profitable and feasible to further the abilities of the DPM degree, rather than try and change it.

 

[cool_vkb]

Find me ONE MD/DO residency that would honor this supposed degree.

Sir, i dont understand why do you think residency will not honor this degree. If the MD degree is offered by an American University iam sure it will be recognized and we will get residencies.

When worst worst kind of foreign medical graduates people with just PASSING Scores in USMLE are getting residencies in FM and IM. iam sure a DPM/MD awarded by American University will be welcomed with flower petals by these residencies. Now thats a different question why would a DPM do a 3yr FM or IM residency and then again spend 3yrs in podiatric residency.

 

[whiskers]

It sounds good but I don't know if it will be very practial. From what I have heard the DO/DPM program in FL is a flop. I just think that if you want to be a DPM you become a DPM.

I totally agree with you. To me this is a dead ended solution. I am totally for change and progress, but not in this direction.

It's just silly for me to think that a DPM student should shovel even more money and time into redundant education to be "accepted" for who we are.

It's funny how we, the johnny-come- latelys of the medical world (with a history of a very narrowed scope of practice) think that the laws of our country and the regulations of the untold hospitals should bend around our demands.

In my opinion, if this is something that we really want, we need to be the ones to bear the burden of change.

Otherwise, we should be content to be happy that we even are allowed to do the things that we are allowed to do.

Our whole problem could be solved if we changed our title to MD/DPM.

In my opinion, there isn't a problem with the laws or our scope of practice, it's with our profession.

Again, it's probably easier, in my opinion for us to change than to demand the rest of the world change for us.

If any of us want to be full scope practicioners of the body and the foot and ankle, they can go to the nearest medical college and get in line and compete in the same processes that the rest of the medical students do. It's a fair system and we all can COMPETE.

Each one of us, on our own volition, entered podiatry with the knowledge that podiatry is limited in it's scope of practice.

Personally, I'd like to see our Kings, Queens, Bishops and Dukes go directly to the AMA/AOA and ask what needs to be done to INTEGRATE with their professions because it would better serve our profession, the members and our patients.

 

[jonwill]

Sir, i dont understand why do you think residency will not honor this degree. If the MD degree is offered by an American University iam sure it will be recognized and we will get residencies.

When worst worst kind of foreign medical graduates people with just PASSING Scores in USMLE are getting residencies in FM and IM. iam sure a DPM/MD awarded by American University will be welcomed with flower petals by these residencies. Now thats a different question why would a DPM do a 3yr FM or IM residency and then again spend 3yrs in podiatric residency.

It is not an MD or DO degree, it a DPM/DO or DPM/MD degree. Neither is yet recognized by any governing body that I am aware of.

 

[doclm]

It is not an MD or DO degree, it a DPM/DO or DPM/MD degree. Neither is yet recognized by any governing body that I am aware of.

Isn't managing the patients diabetes part of the current PM&S-24/36 residency?

I do believe that if our profession is going to financially and economically grow we need to get paid the same by the insurance companies that other MD/DO's do for the same procedure. EG. Isn't a Bunion surgery done by a DPM worth like $800, while the Orthopod could get $3000 for the same exact surgery.

Also, DPM's need to be viewed just as educationally competent as any other MD/DO. Dentists are considered the specialists of teeth problems, I don't see why we need to be viewed inferior as foot specialists/sugeons just because Orthopods can/do occationally work on feet and have an MD/DO degree.

 

[mrfeet]

It is not an MD or DO degree, it a DPM/DO or DPM/MD degree. Neither is yet recognized by any governing body that I am aware of.

Apparently there is some confusion about this dual degree. This program would allow a student to graduate as both a Doctor of Podiatric Medicine and a Doctor of Medicine. The MD/DPM or DO/DPM degree is not one degree, but TWO SEPARATE DEGREES. As this would be the case, one would have to complete two seperate residencies: one is podiatric medicine and surgery and one in an allopathic specialty (i.e. FP, IM, OB/GYN). The purpose of this dual degree is not to undermine our profession, but to augment DPMs in their scope of practice.

TRUE STORY:

Several weeks ago in clinic a 65 year old patient came in presenting ischemic ulcers on the lower extremity (below the knee). The patient also presented ischemic ulceration above the knee. The podiatrist I was with could not treat the ulcerations above the knee due to the fact that it would violate this state's scope of practice laws. This is absolutely frustrating when you know how to treat a problem but can't due to having your hands bound by laws.

The dual degree would allow pods to treat patients in all regards and would not limit them as the DPM degree currently does.

If we have the opportunity to help people to a greater extent, why not take advantage of it???

 

[jonwill]

Apparently there is some confusion about this dual degree. This program would allow a student to graduate as both a Doctor of Podiatric Medicine and a Doctor of Medicine. The MD/DPM or DO/DPM degree is not one degree, but TWO SEPARATE DEGREES. As this would be the case, one would have to complete two seperate residencies: one is podiatric medicine and surgery and one in an allopathic specialty (i.e. FP, IM, OB/GYN). The purpose of this dual degree is not to undermine our profession, but to augment DPMs in their scope of practice.

TRUE STORY:

Several weeks ago in clinic a 65 year old patient came in presenting ischemic ulcers on the lower extremity (below the knee). The patient also presented ischemic ulceration above the knee. The podiatrist I was with could not treat the ulcerations above the knee due to the fact that it would violate this state's scope of practice laws. This is absolutely frustrating when you know how to treat a problem but can't due to having your hands bound by laws.

The dual degree would allow pods to treat patients in all regards and would not limit them as the DPM degree currently does.

If we have the opportunity to help people to a greater extent, why not take advantage of it???

I understand the dual degree. Let's take the DO/DPM degree at Nova. The problem they are having is that no DO residency will accept the degree because it is not nationally recognized. It is some abstract dual degree offered one place in the world (unlike something like an MD/PhD which is nationally accreditated and offered at many schools).

I believe that these degrees are just "pipe dreams" that will probably never happen because they are not needed. A podiatrist, like any other doc, upon diagnosing a medical issue out of scope will simply refer it appropriately. Every doctor (not just DPM's) does this. At some point, everybody has to specialize. There isn't a doctor out there that does it all. Every doctor has limitations. Choose one specialty and do it well. At some point in medicine, everybody else has to make the decision. DPM's make that decision from the very beginning.

 

[mrfeet]

I understand the dual degree. Let's take the DO/DPM degree at Nova. The problem they are having is that no DO residency will accept the degree because it is not nationally recognized. It is some abstract dual degree offered one place in the world (unlike something like an MD/PhD which is nationally accreditated and offered at many schools).

I believe that these degrees are just "pipe dreams" that will probably never happen because they are not needed. A podiatrist, like any other doc, upon diagnosing a medical issue out of scope will simply refer it appropriately. Every doctor (not just DPM's) does this. At some point, everybody has to specialize. There isn't a doctor out there that does it all. Every doctor has limitations. Choose one specialty and do it well. At some point in medicine, everybody else has to make the decision. DPM's make that decision from the very beginning.

I am not saying that I don't believe you, but I find it hard to believe that if a student graduates with a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (DO) degree, passes all of the necessary boards, etc., no residency program will accept them? After all, a DO is a DO is a DO. Now, residency programs might question the curriculum, but obvioulsy Nova has been granted permission by their respective accrediting body to offer such a degree.

That is the dilemma that Rosalind Franklin University is facing. The Chicago Medical School and Scholl would love to offer the opportunity for a DPM and an MD degree to students, but the accrediting bodies have not yet recognized such a program. Dr. Arthur Ross, the Dean of the Chicago Medical School informed me that the curriculum, "...must be identical and not just similar." Right now, there are minor differences between Scholl's curriculum and that of CMS, such as Scholl students do not take a course in embryology, whereas CMS students do. This would present a problem when offering degrees in both. However, at schools such as CPMS at DMU, this should not be a problem as both CPMS and the osteopathic school at DMU have identical curriculums the first two years.

In regard to all doctors sending patients elsewhere for problems "out of scope," you are not entirely correct. Technically, an MD/DO has no limitation in scope of practice when diagnosing medical ailments. Yes, they do have limitation in treatment and modality, but any MD or DO can diagnose a problem. True, a FP would not typically continue to treat a patient with a heart abnormality, but would refer them to a cardiologist. However, that's not what I'm talking about.

The case that I presented dealt with a patient who had ulcers on two different parts of the body. It was the same type of ulceration, simply different location. It is crazy that a medical practitioner cannot treat the same condition just b/c it is in a different locale. This would be no different than a patient going to a FP to treat them for pneumonia in the right lung, and they having to refer them to a different doctor for pneumonia in the left lung.

 

[phpodguy]

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but can someone explain (or provide a link to an explanation for) what 2015 is? It's been popping up on the thread, but I have no idea what it is specifically. I tried a search but couldn't find anything. Is it a resolution or a deadline for something? Thanks!

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but can someone explain (or provide a link to an explanation for) what 2015 is? It's been popping up on the thread, but I have no idea what it is specifically. I tried a search but couldn't find anything. Is it a resolution or a deadline for something? Thanks!

I believe the Resolution is discussed in the "MD to DPM" thread under this forum.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Apparently there is some confusion about this dual degree. This program would allow a student to graduate as both a Doctor of Podiatric Medicine and a Doctor of Medicine. The MD/DPM or DO/DPM degree is not one degree, but TWO SEPARATE DEGREES. As this would be the case, one would have to complete two seperate residencies: one is podiatric medicine and surgery and one in an allopathic specialty (i.e. FP, IM, OB/GYN). The purpose of this dual degree is not to undermine our profession, but to augment DPMs in their scope of practice.

TRUE STORY:

Several weeks ago in clinic a 65 year old patient came in presenting ischemic ulcers on the lower extremity (below the knee). The patient also presented ischemic ulceration above the knee. The podiatrist I was with could not treat the ulcerations above the knee due to the fact that it would violate this state's scope of practice laws. This is absolutely frustrating when you know how to treat a problem but can't due to having your hands bound by laws.

The dual degree would allow pods to treat patients in all regards and would not limit them as the DPM degree currently does.

If we have the opportunity to help people to a greater extent, why not take advantage of it???

If resolution 2015 passes their would be no stopping point for the podiatrist to treat the ulcer.

I see this as two things (and Scholl students don't take it personal)

1) A gimmick to get more students into the Scholl program. If a student didn't have the stats to get into an MD school, they can back door it. This is probably why most accrediting bodies hesitate.

2) Scholl's way of holding onto autonomy. If resolution 2015 passes, all pod schools would probably have to integrate the curriculum w/ MD or DO programs for the first 2 years.

That is my opinion and I have no facts to back it up. I like Whiskers and Jon feel that the dual degree is not needed (that is why my assessment is so pessimistic)

 

[cool_vkb]

If resolution 2015 passes their would be no stopping point for the podiatrist to treat the ulcer.

I see this as two things (and Scholl students don't take it personal)

1) A gimmick to get more students into the Scholl program. If a student didn't have the stats to get into an MD school, they can back door it. This is probably why most accrediting bodies hesitate.

2) Scholl's way of holding onto autonomy. If resolution 2015 passes, all pod schools would probably have to integrate the curriculum w/ MD or DO programs for the first 2 years.

That is my opinion and I have no facts to back it up. I like Whiskers and Jon feel that the dual degree is not needed (that is why my assessment is so pessimistic)

Feelgood sir, you make a very very interesting point.

So lets say even if the MD/DPM program starts. What will be the admission criteria? Will they accept students based on their undergrad and
MCAT scores. or will they see students DPM program peformance. These are some questions that are very important. Many people will get so happy as soon as they see MD/DPM program especially the good old backup pre-meds. But they have to realize when they couldnt make it to Medical School (be it for any reason). i hardly doubt they would be able to get in through this route. Because if admission standards for this program are same like Podiatry then it would be injustice to regular medical school tough requirements . And believe me within 10 yrs our applicant pool will go from 1000 to 6000 all those premeds who coundt get in med school will try to get in here, then the Podiatry admission requirments will jump from 3.3 and MCAT 22 to 3.6 and MCAT >28. he ehe he.

I do believe we should have a MD program. just like a dual degree. the same way Oral Surgeons have a MD with their DDS degree. but iam not gonna spend 12-15 yrs of life in just education. already 7yrs is more than enough. now again for MD if a student has to put 2-3 yrs more and then for a FM or IM or orthoped residency 3yrs. thats gonna be too much.

 

[AZPOD Rocks]

Actually, this is not true. Unless you did a residency in FP or IM, you really wouldn't be qualified to medically manage anything. Now, here is the fun part. Find me ONE MD/DO residency that would honor this supposed degree.

I think it is much more profitable and feasible to further the abilities of the DPM degree, rather than try and change it.

Notice that my post said "could be trained to medically manage." This indicates I already had assumed you would need additional training (i.e. - a FP or IM residency).

AZPOD Rocks

 

[AZPOD Rocks]

Firstly, DUAL DEGREES offer you ALL of the benefits of either individual degree. If the institution has degree-granting rights through the proper channels for that particular degree, their degrees must be recognized. You can do a dual degree in ANYTHING and as long as they are accredited properly they don't need to be "recognized" as legitimate dual degrees. Instead, they are seen as two separate degrees.

Next, why would someone do a DPM degree and an MD degree? Well, take a look at lengths of residencies. 3 years of residency for the DPM and 3 years for either FP or IM for a total of 6 years. Are there specialties out there who complete 6 years of residency...yes, and actually, quite a few. As I stated before, "Not only could they (those with a dual DPM/MD degree) be the diabetic's best friend from the knee down but could be trained in medically managing their entire diabetic patient, as well." Once again, "I don't think I'd be interested in this route but can see why someone would be."

If you don't like the idea, why don't you zip it, and wait to see what happens. I'm sick of people hopping on and criticizing everything everyone says.

MRFEET, I like your post and am appreciative that you were willing to bring this to our attentions.

AZPOD Rocks

 

[cool_vkb]

Firstly, DUAL DEGREES offer you ALL of the benefits of either individual degree. If the institution has degree-granting rights through the proper channels for that particular degree, their degrees must be recognized. You can do a dual degree in ANYTHING and as long as they are accredited properly they don't need to be "recognized" as legitimate dual degrees. Instead, they are seen as two separate degrees.

Next, why would someone do a DPM degree and an MD degree? Well, take a look at lengths of residencies. 3 years of residency for the DPM and 3 years for either FP or IM for a total of 6 years. Are there specialties out there who complete 6 years of residency...yes, and actually, quite a few. As I stated before, "Not only could they (those with a dual DPM/MD degree) be the diabetic's best friend from the knee down but could be trained in medically managing their entire diabetic patient, as well." Once again, "I don't think I'd be interested in this route but can see why someone would be."

If you don't like the idea, why don't you zip it, and wait to see what happens. I'm sick of people hopping on and criticizing everything everyone says.

MRFEET, I like your post and am appreciative that you were willing to bring this to our attentions.

AZPOD Rocks

 

[Podman]

Here's my thought about this new design, if it even takes place. To be a DPM, and go through the schooling and 3 years+ training is alot of hard work - and it is certainly a great challenge to be the best at what you do (speaking for a DPM perspective) - as it also is very rewarding. To go through 4 years of Medical School, and 3-4 years of FP and IM residency is also alot of hardwork and the same challenges apply. However, what people often forget is that to be really good at a specialty you must continue practicing that specialty and continue learning within that specialty - i.e. through CME courses, research, seminars, etc. The point here is that each specialty has alot of demand if you had the intention of becoming really good at what you do, for that I think it is impossible to have someone practicing multiple specialties simulataneously. We are not talking about someone adding a fellowship to their training - we are talking about someone potentially undergoing 2 separate residencies and asking that practitioner to perform both specialties with proficiency - which I can not imagine being the case.

I think I agree with Feelgood that resolution 2015 would certainly absolve the problems with scopes of practice and at the same time, I think that people have to make a decision early on and ask themselves honestly - do I want to be a podiatrist? or do I want to be an IM, FP, Ob/Gyn, etc.? This middle ground of dual degrees doesn't seem to contribute to our DPM training. I'd rather continue to integrade DPM schools with medical programs and continue improving the quality of our education and training - perhaps also introducing the USMLE than the dual degree system because then we'd be improving the reputation of the profession as a whole rather than leeching off someone else's profession - just my $0.02

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Firstly, DUAL DEGREES offer you ALL of the benefits of either individual degree. If the institution has degree-granting rights through the proper channels for that particular degree, their degrees must be recognized. You can do a dual degree in ANYTHING and as long as they are accredited properly they don't need to be "recognized" as legitimate dual degrees. Instead, they are seen as two separate degrees.

Next, why would someone do a DPM degree and an MD degree? Well, take a look at lengths of residencies. 3 years of residency for the DPM and 3 years for either FP or IM for a total of 6 years. Are there specialties out there who complete 6 years of residency...yes, and actually, quite a few. As I stated before, "Not only could they (those with a dual DPM/MD degree) be the diabetic's best friend from the knee down but could be trained in medically managing their entire diabetic patient, as well." Once again, "I don't think I'd be interested in this route but can see why someone would be."

If you don't like the idea, why don't you zip it, and wait to see what happens. I'm sick of people hopping on and criticizing everything everyone says.

MRFEET, I like your post and am appreciative that you were willing to bring this to our attentions.

AZPOD Rocks

Yes there are 6 year residencies but there compoung that w/ 7 years of medical school. No one does that.

As for criticizing it, I thought that is why the forum existed to discuss issues both those who agree and those who don't. I'm not criticizing anyone unless you are the dean of Scholl and even then I'm not criticizing him. I am evaluating the idea not the person. I don't understand why you are taking things so personally but I hope MrFeet understands this also.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Here's my thought about this new design, if it even takes place. To be a DPM, and go through the schooling and 3 years+ training is alot of hard work - and it is certainly a great challenge to be the best at what you do (speaking for a DPM perspective) - as it also is very rewarding. To go through 4 years of Medical School, and 3-4 years of FP and IM residency is also alot of hardwork and the same challenges apply. However, what people often forget is that to be really good at a specialty you must continue practicing that specialty and continue learning within that specialty - i.e. through CME courses, research, seminars, etc. The point here is that each specialty has alot of demand if you had the intention of becoming really good at what you do, for that I think it is impossible to have someone practicing multiple specialties simulataneously. We are not talking about someone adding a fellowship to their training - we are talking about someone potentially undergoing 2 separate residencies and asking that practitioner to perform both specialties with proficiency - which I can not imagine being the case.

I think I agree with Feelgood that resolution 2015 would certainly absolve the problems with scopes of practice and at the same time, I think that people have to make a decision early on and ask themselves honestly - do I want to be a podiatrist? or do I want to be an IM, FP, Ob/Gyn, etc.? This middle ground of dual degrees doesn't seem to contribute to our DPM training. I'd rather continue to integrade DPM schools with medical programs and continue improving the quality of our education and training - perhaps also introducing the USMLE than the dual degree system because then we'd be improving the reputation of the profession as a whole rather than leeching off someone else's profession - just my $0.02

 

[7385]

I think a DPM/PhD is much more applicable since DPMs already do and know much of what am MD does... there is so much need for research, if your going to spend the time doing a dual degree, why not fill a hole in the profession??

 

[gustydoc]

I think podman hit the nail on the head with his last post. When I posted the info on resolution on 2015 I did it with a lot of apprehension. The solution to improving the quality of care for our patients does not require seeking an additional degree. Instead we need to have faith in the excellent training we get and better educate our medical colleagues about it. With the addition of a few classes and rotations there could literally be no difference between the education our allopathic colleagues receive and the one we get. I look forward to the day I can sit for and pass the USMLE, thus proving to the medical profession that I as a podiatrist am competent as a physician. It is not necessary to change our degree to become physicians. In my opinion we already are and as our osteopathic colleagues learned a few decades ago we might really come to regret losing what makes us unique as podiatrists to feel more included in MD circles. For those of you interested in the topic who have not read about resolution 2015 please check out the DPM to MD thread and look it over. Good food for thought.

 

[jonwill]

I think podman hit the nail on the head with his last post. When I posted the info on resolution on 2015 I did it with a lot of apprehension. The solution to improving the quality of care for our patients does not require seeking an additional degree. Instead we need to have faith in the excellent training we get and better educate our medical colleagues about it. With the addition of a few classes and rotations there could literally be no difference between the education our allopathic colleagues receive and the one we get. I look forward to the day I can sit for and pass the USMLE, thus proving to the medical profession that I as a podiatrist am competent as a physician. It is not necessary to change our degree to become physicians. In my opinion we already are and as our osteopathic colleagues learned a few decades ago we might really come to regret losing what makes us unique as podiatrists to feel more included in MD circles. For those of you interested in the topic who have not read about resolution 2015 please check out the DPM to MD thread and look it over. Good food for thought.

 

[cool_vkb]

I think podman hit the nail on the head with his last post. When I posted the info on resolution on 2015 I did it with a lot of apprehension. The solution to improving the quality of care for our patients does not require seeking an additional degree. Instead we need to have faith in the excellent training we get and better educate our medical colleagues about it. With the addition of a few classes and rotations there could literally be no difference between the education our allopathic colleagues receive and the one we get. I look forward to the day I can sit for and pass the USMLE, thus proving to the medical profession that I as a podiatrist am competent as a physician. It is not necessary to change our degree to become physicians. In my opinion we already are and as our osteopathic colleagues learned a few decades ago we might really come to regret losing what makes us unique as podiatrists to feel more included in MD circles. For those of you interested in the topic who have not read about resolution 2015 please check out the DPM to MD thread and look it over. Good food for thought.

See but here's the question. Can that Resolution 2015 really happen. Will the Orthopods or AMA allow this to happen or cooperate with us? i pray to god that resolution passes.

 

[SAFOOT]

So lets just say supposedly it passes what happens to all people that have only regular DPM degrees and us who are only going to be getting DPM alone. Isn't it bad news for us making us more limited?

 

[molldoll2010dpm]

Isn't managing the patients diabetes part of the current PM&S-24/36 residency?

I do believe that if our profession is going to financially and economically grow we need to get paid the same by the insurance companies that other MD/DO's do for the same procedure. EG. Isn't a Bunion surgery done by a DPM worth like $800, while the Orthopod could get $3000 for the same exact surgery.

Also, DPM's need to be viewed just as educationally competent as any other MD/DO. Dentists are considered the specialists of teeth problems, I don't see why we need to be viewed inferior as foot specialists/sugeons just because Orthopods can/do occationally work on feet and have an MD/DO degree.

I love how you quote Dr. Levinthal's lecture. It's like word for word. Oh and I heard about the possibility of joint MD/DPM back in September. Even though I think I will stick with my plans.

 

[molldoll2010dpm]

I just thought I would let everyone know that Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science, which is the home of the Scholl College of Podiatric Medicine is currently exploring a joint MD/DPM program. This program would be held in conjunction with the Chicago Medical School at RFU and would grant entering DPM students the right to obtain their MD degree as well. Ofcourse, this is still in the investigation stages and it will take several years before such a program can be implemented. The APMA, AMA, CPME, and LCME will all have to agree to such an endeavor, but if implemented it would be the first of its kind and would revolutionize podiatric medical education.

mrfeet, you rock!!!!!

 

[whiskers]

I love how you quote Dr. Levinthal's lecture. It's like word for word.

Poor Dr. Levinthal... Was he a victim of a posting parrot with a keen ear for intelligent talk?

Krabmas and Podman, from the biomechanics thread...see what I mean? I didn't even have to leave my bathroom and watch someone elses powerpoint presentation to be demonstrated the absolute power of a brilliantly academic mind... being creative.

 

[molldoll2010dpm]

Poor Dr. Levinthal... Was he a victim of a posting parrot with a keen ear for intelligent talk?

Krabmas and Podman, from the biomechanics thread...see what I mean? I didn't even have to leave my bathroom and watch someone elses powerpoint presentation to be demonstrated the absolute power of a brilliantly academic mind... being creative.

It wasn't quite a word for word post. Actually, out Professor said that the Orthopedics actually get around $3,000 and Pods get $800 for the same bunion surgery. which is actually a way bigger difference. And she didn't say it in a power point, it was discussed with class participation. Maybe we just interact with our professors more than you do.

 

[OSUDDS]

So lets just say supposedly it passes what happens to all people that have only regular DPM degrees and us who are only going to be getting DPM alone. Isn't it bad news for us making us more limited?

bomp

 

[dawg44]

Isn't managing the patients diabetes part of the current PM&S-24/36 residency?

I do believe that if our profession is going to financially and economically grow we need to get paid the same by the insurance companies that other MD/DO's do for the same procedure. EG. Isn't a Bunion surgery done by a DPM worth like $800, while the Orthopod could get $3000 for the same exact surgery.

Also, DPM's need to be viewed just as educationally competent as any other MD/DO. Dentists are considered the specialists of teeth problems, I don't see why we need to be viewed inferior as foot specialists/sugeons just because Orthopods can/do occationally work on feet and have an MD/DO degree.

Maybe they are being paid extra because they want the job done right.
Insurance companies aren't in the business of giving out more money in reimbursement. That mission is going to rate right up there with O.J. finding the real killers.
Do DPMs need to be viewed as being educationally competent as a MD/DO because you say so? Have you heard how hard it is to get into an orthopedic residency? We turn two to three people away a year with 99% on their licensing exams. Sometimes they don't even get an interview.
I'll be waiting for a Pinzer article quote with baited breath.

 

[cool_vkb]

Have you heard how hard it is to get into an orthopedic residency? We turn two to three people away a year with 99% on their licensing exams. Sometimes they don't even get an interview.
I'll be waiting for a Pinzer article quote with baited breath.

I do agree with you on this point. Orthopedic residency is considered one of the hardest compared to other residency.

 

[SAFOOT]

I do agree with you on this point. Orthopedic residency is considered one of the hardest compared to other residency.

Harder doesn't mean its better. Physics is hard but does it make it a better major than say biology or chemistry etc. This is America there is no one way to everything. Also just because someone scored a 99% on some test doesn't mean jack squat. I've had 3-4 friends who scored 1500's on SAT's got into great schools but couldn't pull through with top GPA's. In the end its those that give the best service that are the most successful not those that have the best memorizing skills. No patient gives a damn about what grades you got they give a damn about you fixing their problem and giving them proper service and attention. STOP bringing up the whole idea that orthopeds are better. Orthopeds are trained with much different techniques than DPM's.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Harder doesn't mean its better. Physics is hard but does it make it a better major than say biology or chemistry etc. This is America there is no one way to everything. Also just because someone scored a 99% on some test doesn't mean jack squat. I've had 3-4 friends who scored 1500's on SAT's got into great schools but couldn't pull through with top GPA's. In the end its those that give the best service that are the most successful not those that have the best memorizing skills. No patient gives a damn about what grades you got they give a damn about you fixing their problem and giving them proper service and attention. STOP bringing up the whole idea that orthopeds are better. Orthopeds are trained with much different techniques than DPM's.

I agree with everything but the last line. The techniques are the same and therefore the pay should be the same. If you pay a DO the same as an MD then why is there a huge difference between an orthopod and a pod?

I do agree w/ dawg that ortho is very hard to get into but hard doesn't mean better service. He is just rattling the cage. And I would be okay if they just closed the gap a little; 3 to 4 times more is unreasonable.

 

[cool_vkb]

Harder doesn't mean its better. Physics is hard but does it make it a better major than say biology or chemistry etc. This is America there is no one way to everything. Also just because someone scored a 99% on some test doesn't mean jack squat. I've had 3-4 friends who scored 1500's on SAT's got into great schools but couldn't pull through with top GPA's. In the end its those that give the best service that are the most successful not those that have the best memorizing skills. No patient gives a damn about what grades you got they give a damn about you fixing their problem and giving them proper service and attention. STOP bringing up the whole idea that orthopeds are better. Orthopeds are trained with much different techniques than DPM's.

hello u should have read earlier post. We were discussing about Orthopedic residency compared to other residencies for MDs. And it is a fact that it is the hardest to get in for Medical Students.

DPM has nothing to do with it. I never said anything about it. Perhaps! you could have read the 2-3 last posts and then arrive at conclusion.

 

[dawg44]

Harder doesn't mean its better. Physics is hard but does it make it a better major than say biology or chemistry etc. This is America there is no one way to everything. Also just because someone scored a 99% on some test doesn't mean jack squat. I've had 3-4 friends who scored 1500's on SAT's got into great schools but couldn't pull through with top GPA's. In the end its those that give the best service that are the most successful not those that have the best memorizing skills. No patient gives a damn about what grades you got they give a damn about you fixing their problem and giving them proper service and attention. STOP bringing up the whole idea that orthopeds are better. Orthopeds are trained with much different techniques than DPM's.

You are proving my point. Remember I said some don't even get an interview. We in ortho think we are elite and the tip of the sword, so we will defend it anywhere. Another point, the phase was "educational competence" and tests scores are absolutely valid when talking about education. Success in practice is not the issue that was started here.

 

[dawg44]

I agree with everything but the last line. The techniques are the same and therefore the pay should be the same. If you pay a DO the same as an MD then why is there a huge difference between an orthopod and a pod?

I do agree w/ dawg that ortho is very hard to get into but hard doesn't mean better service. He is just rattling the cage. And I would be okay if they just closed the gap a little; 3 to 4 times more is unreasonable.

I agree hard doesn't mean better service, but easy doesn't either. As far as rattling the cage. You know me I'm a stickler for details.

 

[Podman]

I agree hard doesn't mean better service, but easy doesn't either. As far as rattling the cage. You know me I'm a stickler for details.

dawg go back to work before i take your patients

 

[dawg44]

dawg go back to work before i take your patients

Ill take the rest of the day off. Thanks, Podman I've got some BIG XII football to watch.

 

[Podman]

Ill take the rest of the day off. Thanks, Podman I've got some BIG XII football to watch.

Can't go wrong with Big 12 football...I'm personally looking forward to the big USC ND showdown - I'd love to see the trojans go down just so my Wolverines can get another shot at OSU for national championship

 

[AZPOD Rocks]

You are proving my point. Remember I said some don't even get an interview. We in ortho think we are elite and the tip of the sword, so we will defend it anywhere. Another point, the phase was "educational competence" and tests scores are absolutely valid when talking about education. Success in practice is not the issue that was started here.

Dawg,

The thought that "tests scores are absolutely valid when talking about education" is certainly an overstatement. I have but 2 classes left for a Masters in Health Professions Education and this particular subject is of importance to me.

If you look at the literature for, say, MCAT scores vs. success in medical school (GPA and Board scores), you will find that in approximately 1/2 of the cases the MCAT was a good indicator. The other half are anywhere in the spectrum.

While it is true that MCAT scores are the BEST indicator of who will be successful (vs. GPA and extra-curricular experience), 50% is a far cry from being "absolutely valid when talking about education" and shouldn't even be considered a "good" indicator of who will be successful.

Now you know... and knowing is half the battle!

AZPOD Rocks

 

[dawg44]

Dawg,

The thought that "tests scores are absolutely valid when talking about education" is certainly an overstatement. I have but 2 classes left for a Masters in Health Professions Education and this particular subject is of importance to me.

If you look at the literature for, say, MCAT scores vs. success in medical school (GPA and Board scores), you will find that in approximately 1/2 of the cases the MCAT was a good indicator. The other half are anywhere in the spectrum.

While it is true that MCAT scores are the BEST indicator of who will be successful (vs. GPA and extra-curricular experience), 50% is a far cry from being "absolutely valid when talking about education" and shouldn't even be considered a "good" indicator of who will be successful.

Now you know... and knowing is half the battle!

AZPOD Rocks

You define board scores as a marker for success in your own arguement, proving my point. Are you suggesting we go pass fail and give out gold stars and drop GPA, MCAT, USMLE and Board Licensing exams?

 

[krabmas]

Sir, i dont understand why do you think residency will not honor this degree. If the MD degree is offered by an American University iam sure it will be recognized and we will get residencies.

When worst worst kind of foreign medical graduates people with just PASSING Scores in USMLE are getting residencies in FM and IM. iam sure a DPM/MD awarded by American University will be welcomed with flower petals by these residencies. Now thats a different question why would a DPM do a 3yr FM or IM residency and then again spend 3yrs in podiatric residency.

why would someone spend 3 years for IM? just the intern year and you can call yourself a general practicioner (GP).

 

[krabmas]

Poor Dr. Levinthal... Was he a victim of a posting parrot with a keen ear for intelligent talk?

Krabmas and Podman, from the biomechanics thread...see what I mean? I didn't even have to leave my bathroom and watch someone elses powerpoint presentation to be demonstrated the absolute power of a brilliantly academic mind... being creative.

lots of luv wiskers.

No matter the reason I like to see my name in lights

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Ill take the rest of the day off. Thanks, Podman I've got some BIG XII football to watch.

Who were you watching? If you tell me NU we might be BFF.