Its Official: MD/DPM Program Being Investigated

[molldoll2010dpm]

So lets say, What if a DPM or a OD or anyother proffesion proves his clinical competency and patient safety by the virtue of his training and exams in front of a group of MDs who conduct that exam. Then would you be happy to accept that person as someone equal to MD or you would still say that MDs are better than him. Iam just asking. i have nothing againts u , infact i respect you. And iam asking these irritating questions just bcoz you have very extensive knowledge and i am learning from you a lot from these discussions.

Cool,

I have been reading an observing your posts for a very long time. It appears to me that you care more about obtaining an MD degree than a DPM degree. If this is the case, then please don't come to Scholl, go to medical school somewhere. If you are worried about our curriculum and the fact that we have classes with other professions, even though we have top notch faculty you may want to consider either your choice of school or your future profession. I have never once heard you express anything about the podiatry profession that doesn't end in an MD degree. If your final goal in life is to be a Medical Doctor, please go to medical school. And stop acting like you ask these questions for educational purposes, because you are doing them to be irritating and redundant on this forum.

Molldoll

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[dpmrunner]

I know it's a direct question to northerner I just don't want to see this get blown out of proportion like SO many other threads of a similar sort. Northerner can correct me if I'm wrong but is pretty much saying that MDs are 'better' in the sense that they are more well-rounded and in being so more competent in full body matters.

As was stated, we have our niche, we are competent and well-rounded in the human body ourselves but in the end it is the human body as it relates to the foot and theirs is the human body as a whole. We cut off a year or two extra by specializing right away. These couple years are what gives MDs and/or DOs the term 'better' in regards to being more competent in more areas.

This doesn't mean anyone is better than any other person. Everybody likes to put their ego into matters. I'm sure there are many business people, or even homemakers for that matter that are very intelligent and could possibly make some of the best physicians in the world but they chose different paths. Whatever path one has chosen for a career, try to make it that- a career, not a 'job' that you are going to wake up hating etc.

Can someone honestly tell me what makes one person better than another as a whole because I'm a little stumped by it.

 

[cool_vkb]

Cool,

I have been reading an observing your posts for a very long time. It appears to me that you care more about obtaining an MD degree than a DPM degree. If this is the case, then please don't come to Scholl, go to medical school somewhere. If you are worried about our curriculum and the fact that we have classes with other professions, even though we have top notch faculty you may want to consider either your choice of school or your future profession. I have never once heard you express anything about the podiatry profession that doesn't end in an MD degree. If your final goal in life is to be a Medical Doctor, please go to medical school. And stop acting like you ask these questions for educational purposes, because you are doing them to be irritating and redundant on this forum.

Molldoll

Ofcourse its an irritating question. iam saying it right in the question. What makes you think iam interested in MD degree. Most of the posts that i reply are to Trolls or non-pods, So ofcourse it will be about MD and MD issues. And ofcourse i have to know where we stand in comparision to our MD counterparts bcoz many times in this forum, you find people talking how we are discriminated by some General MDs or hospital priviledges or orthopods,etc. So i have to know what they think and how they react and their opinions . i like to know just out of curosity and its my personal matter, i never bother any other Pod member on the forum in any way. And if there is a MD guy browing our threads and answering my questions why should i not make advantage of it. If i have posted something wrong or something demeaning about podiatry then plzz do correct me. but u r not supposed to write like this just bcoz iam asking some questions or having different views. Iam really happy that you took out time and wrote a word of advise for me but perhaps you could send me a PM/message and correct me if iam wrong, so many other good people on this forum PM/message me and correct me if iam writing anything rubbish or for my english grammar and i really learn a lot from it. but this way of writing in an open forum so that everyone can see, is very insulting and demeaning. I am really hurt and insulted. Anyways, i know i wanna be a pod and i dont need to prove it to anyone.

Regarding the question to DOCLM about Scholl. hey i just asked a question, i was just asking his student opinion. i never said anything against Scholl or i wanna change it. I just asked a question. I forgot to ask that question during my interview. Now where on the earth am i gonna find a scholl student apart from SDN forum to ask unless i take out time to visit campus. Now if you dont want me to ask a question bcoz its irritating on SDN where else shud i ask. I didnt wanted to call again and ask admission people bcoz i needed a direct student opinion, which DOCLM gave. iam really sorry if i posted something wrong which might have offended you.

 

[Dr. Gangrene]

I have been reading some of the posts for this thread, and have thought of what I believe is a key point. A lot of people do not know what a dpm is (whether out of ignorance or misinformation etc.) Due to this, the general (uninformed) population will associate md (and even d.o.) with being superior. (And certainly, even some doctors (md) will fall into this uninformed category, and are guilty of the same thing)

The point is perceptions are based on information, and in this case, a lack of. People are generally scared of the unknown, and see it as a negative thing. So, if this mysterious dpm profession comes to someones attention, there first reaction is that it is strange and therefore inferior to other medical professions. As many people on many threads have pointed out, informed and knowledgeable health professionals and others realize what becoming a dpm entails, and therefore respect said practitioners.

My point is, the apparent need of people to rank Md as superior probably at least in part comes from the fact they do not understand what a dpm does. This coupled with a shift in our healthcare system to an interdisciplinary system is obviously causing some angst and people are scared to accept the change.

I hope the spirit of my post gets across; It is 530 am, and I have been up working all night (so if I have some spelling errors, that is my alibi).

To summarize, lack of knowledge (in my opinion) is a major contributer to seeing Md or DO as superior to dpm (when we are really comparing apples to green apples to oranges.

 

[dawg44]

I have been reading some of the posts for this thread, and have thought of what I believe is a key point. A lot of people do not know what a dpm is (whether out of ignorance or misinformation etc.) Due to this, the general (uninformed) population will associate md (and even d.o.) with being superior. (And certainly, even some doctors (md) will fall into this uninformed category, and are guilty of the same thing)

The point is perceptions are based on information, and in this case, a lack of. People are generally scared of the unknown, and see it as a negative thing. So, if this mysterious dpm profession comes to someones attention, there first reaction is that it is strange and therefore inferior to other medical professions. As many people on many threads have pointed out, informed and knowledgeable health professionals and others realize what becoming a dpm entails, and therefore respect said practitioners.

My point is, the apparent need of people to rank Md as superior probably at least in part comes from the fact they do not understand what a dpm does. This coupled with a shift in our healthcare system to an interdisciplinary system is obviously causing some angst and people are scared to accept the change.

I hope the spirit of my post gets across; It is 530 am, and I have been up working all night (so if I have some spelling errors, that is my alibi).

To summarize, lack of knowledge (in my opinion) is a major contributer to seeing Md or DO as superior to dpm (when we are really comparing apples to green apples to oranges.

Or could it be these perceptions are based on information and not the lack of it and some of the population (patients and practicioners) may be "informed". There are DPMs out their practicing who did no residency and did an "apprenticeship" or spent a day with an orthopod and called it a "fellowship" and truly don't know what they are doing. It is also possible that they did a residency in a state that has alot of restrictions and again don't know what they are doing in the OR. There are DPMs that hide that they are a DPM by having every piece of office stationary, business card and white coat read Dr. and no mention of the degree. Until you get rid of these quality control issues you can yell about perceived superiority until you are blue in the face, these issues are still going to be there. Standarization is where you have to take your profession if you want to make headway.

 

[Podman]

Or could it be these perceptions are based on information and not the lack of it and some of the population (patients and practicioners) may be "informed". There are DPMs out their practicing who did no residency and did an "apprenticeship" or spent a day with an orthopod and called it a "fellowship" and truly don't know what they are doing. It is also possible that they did a residency in a state that has alot of restrictions and again don't know what they are doing in the OR. There are DPMs that hide that they are a DPM by having every piece of office stationary, business card and white coat read Dr. and no mention of the degree. Until you get rid of these quality control issues you can yell about perceived superiority until you are blue in the face, these issues are still going to be there. Standarization is where you have to take your profession if you want to make headway.

absolutely. I agree with that perspective 100 percent. Fort that reason, I'd rather have the profession move towards standardization and raising the bar (admissions, residency, certification) rather than hiding behind another degree

 

[Northerner]

So lets say, What if a DPM or a OD or anyother proffesion proves his clinical competency and patient safety by the virtue of his training and exams in front of a group of MDs who conduct that exam. Then would you be happy to accept that person as someone equal to MD or you would still say that MDs are better than him. Iam just asking. i have nothing againts u , infact i respect you. And iam asking these irritating questions just bcoz you have very extensive knowledge and i am learning from you a lot from these discussions.

I acutally used this example to illustrate a point when I somehow got roped (let myself get roped) into the OD/OMD debate in another forum....

...in fact, let's offer surgery to anyone with any kind of health-related degree, as long as it seems like they can do it. Anyone with letters after your name, line up to the right and we'll check your ability to do surgery and thenceforth anyone with your letters will be able to do it forever. Why not? It's just drape this, cut that, cauterize this, watch out for that, sew a few layers and PRESTO, you're a surgeon!

The best part is, no one'll be able to argue against my "line up against the wall" system of practice rights distribution because they'll be effectively neutralized by accusations of being disrespectful of other health professions, elitism, naivete, and apparently insidious financial motivation.

(That post was a little inflammatory, I'll admit, but I was trying to make a point)

The point is, it doesn't take a genius to do most medical procedures, or to understand medical pathology or physiology, the vast majority of people pass the USMLE, and the vast majority get residencies. And there are probably other ways to train a practiontioner other than the traditional MD route that are effective (e.g. nurses with experience can probably diagnose appendicitis or cholelithiasis or aortic coarctation or what-have-you, depending on their experience, and would know how to handle it without having an MD tell them) that would result in competent patient care. Sure, I'll concede that. I'll concede (and have indirectly already conceded) that for most things that an MD does, there's probably a peripheral health professional who could/can/does do the same thing. It's possible that on average, for some of those things, it's even "as good" as what the MD would do, even without the extra training.

So the question remains...assuming they do the same thing in practice that an MD would do, should we accept them and everyone with the same letters after their name as equal to an MD?

Well, ask yourself this. (For the purposes of illustrating my point, assume "all things equal") If you had the choice between having a Stanford School of Medicine educated, Mass General trained surgeon doing your thyroidectomy or a Wright State School of Medicine educated, Boondocks Community Hospital trained surgeon (both with an M.D.), who would you choose? Sure, you could probably make up a scenario in which the WSU guy's a better choice, but the reality is, you, me, probably most everyone would take the guy who's got the education and training that's KNOWN to be outstanding. Why? Maybe in part because of whoever-it-was who said "fear of the unknown", sure. But mostly because you don't want to gamble your health on the idea that in theory, both should be equally competent, when you know damn well there's a difference in their education and training.

And when you lose your voice because the recurrent laryngeal nerve was damaged in the procedure or lose a few too many parathyroid glands, you'll wonder if you made the right choice. All you'll know is that you made the choice to consider both as equals as physicians, and so you gave the WSU guy the permission to take your thyroid over the Stanford guy. You'll never know what would have happened if the Stanford guy had been operating. It may have gone well. It may have gone even worse. You don't know. All you can do is reflect after the procedure's done, and speculate as to why it might have happened. That's what the problem is here. The only way we'll know what deviation from the status quo will mean for patient care is by gambling a bit with our patients' health, and then doing a study afterwards to see what the outcomes were. People are hesitant to support that. I'm hesitant to support that.

 

[densmore22]

Northener-

I am just curious, what exactly about the podiatric medical school curriculum is inferior to allopathic medical school curriculum? I don't think anyone who posts on here wants to be an MD and I think the biggest thing you are talking about is competence in the health care provider. That being said, podiatric medical students today-we know our boundaries. I don't think any of us wants to treat outside of the foot and ankle, but reality remains that we will be monitoring patients blood pressures, diabetes, etc. in concert with that patients Internist or FP doc and we are recognized by the United States Government as surgeons (specialists-not general) so with that title comes the added responsibility of knowing and needing to know how and what the body does when we order a drug or give a medication or alter some structure or when a patient begins to "crump" when they're under our care. I don't think we want to cross over into the Ortho doc's territory and again, we know our boundaries, but I think that this makes us all the better because we do know when we need to pass a patient off or refer them out rather than try to manage something, that through our schooling and residencies, allows us treat.

I'm not directing this post directly to you (Northerner other than the first question), I'm just stating in general-that just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do something and that works both ways. Yeah, MDs are trained in the whole body and yes, they do receive a better "General knowledge" of the body and their ability to treat it, but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to treat the whole body-I know plenty of ER docs that are capable of delivering a baby, but never want to and would go to great lengths to not deliver one; or reduce a hip dislocation and would call an ortho 100% of the time-qualification doesn't equal competence.

I may have gotten off the true subject of this post a little bit, forgive me.

 

[densmore22]

Duplicate

 

[Northerner]

Northener-
I am just curious, what exactly about the podiatric medical school curriculum is inferior to allopathic medical school curriculum?

You answered your own question...

Yeah, MDs are trained in the whole body and yes, they do receive a better "General knowledge" of the body and their ability to treat it...

It'd be a mistake to try to pin down what it is that makes an MD education better than a podiatry education, and you're certainly welcome to disagree.

Alright, for the sake of argument, let's just group all (DPM, MD, DO) medical or podiatry schools into one big group. Now, the point of my original example of the Stanford vs. WSU doctor was to illustrate that YES, differences exist in education and training, even between supposedly identical degrees and curriculum, and it's pretty hard to tell whether this translates into a difference in patient care. But YES, differences exist in education and training between ALL schools, even those that all have the same standardized and accredited curriculum (all MD schools).

Now, let's take some subgroups within this large bulk sample of schools. There's a difference in education and training between MD schools of upper tier vs. lower tier, sure (the least amount of difference, supposedly of any two groupings - within degree variation). There is also a difference between MD schools and DO schools (larger amount of difference, because they have different accreditation, subtly different curriculum, different licensing, etc., but still legally granted practice rights equal to an MD - between equivalent degree variation). There is also a difference between MD schools and DPM schools (largest amount of difference between degrees, because not only do they have different accreditation, different curriculum, different licensing, different degree, they ALSO have a legally-determined different scope of practice, etc. - between degrees w/non-equivalent scope of practice variation).

The bottom line, is that YES there are differences between all schools that teach a form of medicine, (1) variation in education and training between schools that grant the same degree, (2) variation in education and training between equivalent degrees, (3) variation education and training between non-equivalent degrees. That isn't something that can realistically be argued. And sure, there's similarities and differences between all of these. But taken as two separate groups, we have quantitative measures that indicate despite the similarities between a DPM and MD education and training that may exist, they draw a different caliber of student, they provide a different education from a different curriculum, and produce practitioners with therefore a different level of medical knowledge, assessed in a different way, have a different training process (residency) and will ultimately expect and remain within a different scope of practice. These differences, taken together, are not currently in favor of the DPM over the MD.

Now, as I said, I think the current scope of podiatry is good. I agree that it's probably pretty frustrating to have some states not even allow the ankle in the scope, while some allow you to go up to the hip. I can see why you'd want this to be standardized, and I can sympathize. However, the way to do it isn't by giving "universal scope", like an MD/DO has. Because while you may think that the reason for this push will just allow podiatrists to keep their niche, but just manage it better, "universal scope" would allow podiatrists to go as far as they'd like towards orthopedic surgery, regardless of your personal vision for how podiatrists would manage their universal scope. So if you ask me - yes, I agree you should get a standardized scope nationwide, and everyone's got their opinion on what this should include - personally, I'm inclined to believe it should have a liberal amount of inclusion. I think getting a scope of practice that makes the difference between a podiatrist and orthopedic surgeon minute is not the way to do it.

 

[Dr. Gangrene]

i also agree with dawg. I was simply stating one aspect of what is probably the cause of the "superiority debate". I know that my perspective is at least somewhat valid, because where I live many people have only heard of (if that) pod. Many people that i have talked with about my soon to be attendance in pod school told me they didn't know about it. I myself thought it was an md subspecialty until a friend enlightened me.

So I totally agree with what dawg says. I was just putting some light on what I beleive is one of many factors contributing to the perceived superiority. Thanks guys

 

[krabmas]

You answered your own question...



Because while you may think that the reason for this push will just allow podiatrists to keep their niche, but just manage it better, "universal scope" would allow podiatrists to go as far as they'd like towards orthopedic surgery, regardless of your personal vision for how podiatrists would manage their universal scope. So if you ask me - yes, I agree you should get a standardized scope nationwide, and everyone's got their opinion on what this should include - personally, I'm inclined to believe it should have a liberal amount of inclusion. I think getting a scope of practice that makes the difference between a podiatrist and orthopedic surgeon minute is not the way to do it.

Again,

even with a universal scope we would not be orthopedic surgeons. Maybe you should do some research on the podiatric profession before continuing to post. Orthopedic surgeons do not do derm of the foot, diabetic wound care, and other primary medical conditions of the foot.

I do not think we need a universal scope. If we had a national scope similar to florida and also DPM's were nationally considered physicians, I think that would sufice. I do not think as podiatrists we want to do femure fractures, knee arthroscopes or other procedures on other extremities, we just want to treat the whole patient when admitted to the hospital. In the office we are not going to start managing our patient's endocrine problems or heart conditions.

 

[krabmas]

The point is, it doesn't take a genius to do most medical procedures, or to understand medical pathology or physiology, the vast majority of people pass the USMLE, and the vast majority get residencies. And there are probably other ways to train a practiontioner other than the traditional MD route that are effective (e.g. nurses with experience can probably diagnose appendicitis or cholelithiasis or aortic coarctation or what-have-you, depending on their experience, and would know how to handle it without having an MD tell them) that would result in competent patient care. Sure, I'll concede that. I'll concede (and have indirectly already conceded) that for most things that an MD does, there's probably a peripheral health professional who could/can/does do the same thing. It's possible that on average, for some of those things, it's even "as good" as what the MD would do, even without the extra training.

So the question remains...assuming they do the same thing in practice that an MD would do, should we accept them and everyone with the same letters after their name as equal to an MD?

Well, ask yourself this. (For the purposes of illustrating my point, assume "all things equal") If you had the choice between having a Stanford School of Medicine educated, Mass General trained surgeon doing your thyroidectomy or a Wright State School of Medicine educated, Boondocks Community Hospital trained surgeon (both with an M.D.), who would you choose? Sure, you could probably make up a scenario in which the WSU guy's a better choice, but the reality is, you, me, probably most everyone would take the guy who's got the education and training that's KNOWN to be outstanding. Why? Maybe in part because of whoever-it-was who said "fear of the unknown", sure. But mostly because you don't want to gamble your health on the idea that in theory, both should be equally competent, when you know damn well there's a difference in their education and training.

And when you lose your voice because the recurrent laryngeal nerve was damaged in the procedure or lose a few too many parathyroid glands, you'll wonder if you made the right choice. All you'll know is that you made the choice to consider both as equals as physicians, and so you gave the WSU guy the permission to take your thyroid over the Stanford guy. You'll never know what would have happened if the Stanford guy had been operating. It may have gone well. It may have gone even worse. You don't know. All you can do is reflect after the procedure's done, and speculate as to why it might have happened. That's what the problem is here. The only way we'll know what deviation from the status quo will mean for patient care is by gambling a bit with our patients' health, and then doing a study afterwards to see what the outcomes were. People are hesitant to support that. I'm hesitant to support that.

If I pick a doctor not based on location or insurance (which is the way most people these days pick doctors) especially for a surgery I would see how many of these procedures the doc does. I might even care where they did their fellowship or residency, I woud definitely look for board certification. By the time they are practicing it almost does not matter what med school they went to.

The point is in this world of highly specialized medicine it is more important how many procedures of that type the doc has done and what their success rate is. It also matters that they know how to deal with complications but as a patient that is hard to find out.

Even though many surgeries happen due to emergencies as a patient it is a crap shoot as to what ER you'll be brought to and what doc you'll get, MD, DPM, good ortho or bad or good general surgeon or bad. so I'll keep this to elective procedures.
Just an example: If I want to get plastic surgery, let's say a nose job, would I pick the doc that does liposuction, tummy tucks and boob jobs all day for my nose job? NO! I'd go with the other guy that does nose jobs all day. This applies for DPMs as well. It is still up to the patient to do their research on their DPM. Just because some one hangs a shingle does not mean that they are competant.

I do not think it is about the DPM's education vs the MDs. It think it is that we are now in a world of managed care where the patient goes to the closest doc that takes their insurance.

Yes it would be nice to just beable to trust that the closest and cheapest is the best but that does not happen in the DPM, MD, DDS, DO.... world.

It is still up to the patient to make sure that they go to whom they think is the best for them.

THe professions do the best they can to monitor and only board certify those that are competant and able, but there are always some who slip through the cracks in any profession or who just lie to the patients about being board certified.

 

[doclm]

Ofcourse its an irritating question. iam saying it right in the question. What makes you think iam interested in MD degree. Most of the posts that i reply are to Trolls or non-pods, So ofcourse it will be about MD and MD issues. And ofcourse i have to know where we stand in comparision to our MD counterparts bcoz many times in this forum, you find people talking how we are discriminated by some General MDs or hospital priviledges or orthopods,etc. So i have to know what they think and how they react and their opinions . i like to know just out of curosity and its my personal matter, i never bother any other Pod member on the forum in any way. And if there is a MD guy browing our threads and answering my questions why should i not make advantage of it. If i have posted something wrong or something demeaning about podiatry then plzz do correct me. but u r not supposed to write like this just bcoz iam asking some questions or having different views. Iam really happy that you took out time and wrote a word of advise for me but perhaps you could send me a PM/message and correct me if iam wrong, so many other good people on this forum PM/message me and correct me if iam writing anything rubbish or for my english grammar and i really learn a lot from it. but this way of writing in an open forum so that everyone can see, is very insulting and demeaning. I am really hurt and insulted. Anyways, i know i wanna be a pod and i dont need to prove it to anyone.

Regarding the question to DOCLM about Scholl. hey i just asked a question, i was just asking his student opinion. i never said anything against Scholl or i wanna change it. I just asked a question. I forgot to ask that question during my interview. Now where on the earth am i gonna find a scholl student apart from SDN forum to ask unless i take out time to visit campus. Now if you dont want me to ask a question bcoz its irritating on SDN where else shud i ask. I didnt wanted to call again and ask admission people bcoz i needed a direct student opinion, which DOCLM gave. iam really sorry if i posted something wrong which might have offended you.

Hey Cool,

I think its great that you have such a curious mind at this point in your life. You will be sure to be confident in all of your decisions. Only if more people would ask questions like you do, we wouldn't have uninformed DPM students that don't know anything about Podiatry.

If you have any other questions regarding Scholl curriculm or anything else feel free to post them or you can PM me as well.

 

[Northerner]

If I pick a doctor not based on location or insurance (which is the way most people these days pick doctors) especially for a surgery I would see how many of these procedures the doc does. I might even care where they did their fellowship or residency, I woud definitely look for board certification. By the time they are practicing it almost does not matter what med school they went to.

The point is in this world of highly specialized medicine it is more important how many procedures of that type the doc has done and what their success rate is. It also matters that they know how to deal with complications but as a patient that is hard to find out.
Even though many surgeries happen due to emergencies as a patient it is a crap shoot as to what ER you'll be brought to and what doc you'll get, MD, DPM, good ortho or bad or good general surgeon or bad. so I'll keep this to elective procedures.
Just an example: If I want to get plastic surgery, let's say a nose job, would I pick the doc that does liposuction, tummy tucks and boob jobs all day for my nose job? NO! I'd go with the other guy that does nose jobs all day. This applies for DPMs as well. It is still up to the patient to do their research on their DPM. Just because some one hangs a shingle does not mean that they are competant.

I do not think it is about the DPM's education vs the MDs. It think it is that we are now in a world of managed care where the patient goes to the closest doc that takes their insurance.

Yes it would be nice to just beable to trust that the closest and cheapest is the best but that does not happen in the DPM, MD, DDS, DO.... world.

It is still up to the patient to make sure that they go to whom they think is the best for them.

THe professions do the best they can to monitor and only board certify those that are competant and able, but there are always some who slip through the cracks in any profession or who just lie to the patients about being board certified.

I'm not sure what your point was, you're kind of all over the place.

I would continue to "debate" this with you, but obviously this is going nowhere, and you've started to become hostile. Since you think I don't know what a podiatrist is (am I saying it right? "po-di-a-trist" am I pronouncing it right?) and I don't think you're understanding my arguments, I think I'll bow out. Good luck to everyone!

 

[doclm]

Or could it be these perceptions are based on information and not the lack of it and some of the population (patients and practicioners) may be "informed". There are DPMs out their practicing who did no residency and did an "apprenticeship" or spent a day with an orthopod and called it a "fellowship" and truly don't know what they are doing. It is also possible that they did a residency in a state that has alot of restrictions and again don't know what they are doing in the OR. There are DPMs that hide that they are a DPM by having every piece of office stationary, business card and white coat read Dr. and no mention of the degree. Until you get rid of these quality control issues you can yell about perceived superiority until you are blue in the face, these issues are still going to be there. Standarization is where you have to take your profession if you want to make headway.

I agree

I think you will find such insufficient DPM training a thing of the past. Also, I don't think that the DPM's that had no residency are doing much other than clipping nails and some conservative care. (Which they are competent to do) After this year you won't find any DPM's having anything less than a 2-3 year surgical residency. I believe that the DPM's who get through the 4 year Podiatric medical school and do a 3 year PM&S residency have more overall training in any aspect of the foot/ankle and even lower extremity than anyone else. Since, this is now the standard, our profession has been and will continue to make headway.

I want to add that I believe that our profession can be more standardized by 1)standardizing all of the DPM colleges 2) standardizing the scope in all of the states and 3)keeping the highest standards for each and every PM&S residency program.

 

[doclm]

I'm not sure what your point was, you're kind of all over the place.

I would continue to "debate" this with you, but obviously this is going nowhere, and you've started to become hostile. Since you think I don't know what a podiatrist is (am I saying it right? "po-di-a-trist" am I pronouncing it right?) and I don't think you're understanding my arguments, I think I'll bow out. Good luck to everyone!

Podiatrists are the experts in the Foot & Ankle (as well as many lower extremity conditions), like Dentists are the experts in the teeth and gums. Why is that so hard to see?

Do you truely believe that with 6-7+ years of training that DPM's are not competent in this area?

 

[OSUDDS]

If I pick a doctor not based on location or insurance (which is the way most people these days pick doctors) especially for a surgery I would see how many of these procedures the doc does. I might even care where they did their fellowship or residency, I woud definitely look for board certification. By the time they are practicing it almost does not matter what med school they went to.

The point is in this world of highly specialized medicine it is more important how many procedures of that type the doc has done and what their success rate is. It also matters that they know how to deal with complications but as a patient that is hard to find out.

Even though many surgeries happen due to emergencies as a patient it is a crap shoot as to what ER you'll be brought to and what doc you'll get, MD, DPM, good ortho or bad or good general surgeon or bad. so I'll keep this to elective procedures.
Just an example: If I want to get plastic surgery, let's say a nose job, would I pick the doc that does liposuction, tummy tucks and boob jobs all day for my nose job? NO! I'd go with the other guy that does nose jobs all day. This applies for DPMs as well. It is still up to the patient to do their research on their DPM. Just because some one hangs a shingle does not mean that they are competant.

I do not think it is about the DPM's education vs the MDs. It think it is that we are now in a world of managed care where the patient goes to the closest doc that takes their insurance.

Yes it would be nice to just beable to trust that the closest and cheapest is the best but that does not happen in the DPM, MD, DDS, DO.... world.

It is still up to the patient to make sure that they go to whom they think is the best for them.

THe professions do the best they can to monitor and only board certify those that are competant and able, but there are always some who slip through the cracks in any profession or who just lie to the patients about being board certified.

I understand what youre saying and I agree with you.

 

[krabmas]

I understand what youre saying and I agree with you.

Thank you.

I know I tend to jump around but I did not think some one with a MD would have that much trouble.

I also did not think I was becoming hostile like Northerner said. But since northerner thought if we had increased scope it would maje us ortho surgeons I did not think he clearly understood what pod med was.

Oh well - at least he said he would bow out - point for me!

 

[cool_vkb]

Wow dude! you are everywhere on this forum. I saw you on OD, Pharm, general, and even India forum on SDN. So i guess, where ever you see something going on related to MD or scope of practice, you enter the debate right!. Because i saw your posts in OD section regarding surgery and then in Pharm section on soemthing else and they were same as you posted in Podiatry section. Nothing wrong abt it. but Woah! no wonder why you are in the 4k club. Thats good though. Iam also in my 400s. He he he that too in just 6 months. if i go at this rate, before my school starts in August. i will be in the 1k club.:laugh.

 

[jonwill]

MD vs DPM education is all relative. The focus is much different. If DPM's were attempting to become MD's, our curriculum would indeed be inferior because it is definetly structured differently. But on the other hand, concerning the foot and ankle, our education is far superior to MDs because of that different structure.

Dawg and Northerner both bring up very valid points. The bottom line is that MDs and DPMs work very closely together out in the medical world. We all serve in a different, but equally important capacity.

 

[drmeggo]

So I have been watching and reading this thread for a long time now. Personally I chose podiatric medicine over allopathic medicine. I felt it afforded me more time to pursue medicine and other goals that I have.

The DPM/MD degree in my mind really downgrades all the work that DPM's do. I go to Scholl and work very hard to get the most out of my medical education, but I realize I will be a podiatrist and am proud of it. I WANT to treat the foot and realated disorders.

I also know med students, here at CMS and at other schools, even a top rated program, that don't care and just do enough to pass their classes. One friend at a very well known school tells me that they will get by because of what school they went to. Medical education and compentency are not based on what school a person goes to, because if that were true lower ranked schools would not have their students passing the same boards as higher schools.

I think that maybe if we as DPM's stopped trying to prove we are on the same level as MD's who provide foot care and just did excellent work things would change. What we need to work towards is standardization of care nationwide and education for patients and other professionals as to what a DPM truly is. Dentists did the same thing in the 1940's and 1950's and are now a very respected niche profession, you don't even think about going to a MD for an oral issue.

We all need to realize we are in professional school and that we are all intelligent. What letters you have behind your name don't prove anything and in the end if you work in a hospital the patients call everyone in a white coat "Doctor."

 

[krabmas]

So I have been watching and reading this thread for a long time now. Personally I chose podiatric medicine over allopathic medicine. I felt it afforded me more time to pursue medicine and other goals that I have.

The DPM/MD degree in my mind really downgrades all the work that DPM's do. I go to Scholl and work very hard to get the most out of my medical education, but I realize I will be a podiatrist and am proud of it. I WANT to treat the foot and realated disorders.

I also know med students, here at CMS and at other schools, even a top rated program, that don't care and just do enough to pass their classes. One friend at a very well known school tells me that they will get by because of what school they went to. Medical education and compentency are not based on what school a person goes to, because if that were true lower ranked schools would not have their students passing the same boards as higher schools.

I think that maybe if we as DPM's stopped trying to prove we are on the same level as MD's who provide foot care and just did excellent work things would change. What we need to work towards is standardization of care nationwide and education for patients and other professionals as to what a DPM truly is. Dentists did the same thing in the 1940's and 1950's and are now a very respected niche profession, you don't even think about going to a MD for an oral issue.

We all need to realize we are in professional school and that we are all intelligent. What letters you have behind your name don't prove anything and in the end if you work in a hospital the patients call everyone in a white coat "Doctor."

very nice well thought out post!

 

[molldoll2010dpm]

So I have been watching and reading this thread for a long time now. Personally I chose podiatric medicine over allopathic medicine. I felt it afforded me more time to pursue medicine and other goals that I have.

The DPM/MD degree in my mind really downgrades all the work that DPM's do. I go to Scholl and work very hard to get the most out of my medical education, but I realize I will be a podiatrist and am proud of it. I WANT to treat the foot and realated disorders.

I also know med students, here at CMS and at other schools, even a top rated program, that don't care and just do enough to pass their classes. One friend at a very well known school tells me that they will get by because of what school they went to. Medical education and compentency are not based on what school a person goes to, because if that were true lower ranked schools would not have their students passing the same boards as higher schools.

I think that maybe if we as DPM's stopped trying to prove we are on the same level as MD's who provide foot care and just did excellent work things would change. What we need to work towards is standardization of care nationwide and education for patients and other professionals as to what a DPM truly is. Dentists did the same thing in the 1940's and 1950's and are now a very respected niche profession, you don't even think about going to a MD for an oral issue.

We all need to realize we are in professional school and that we are all intelligent. What letters you have behind your name don't prove anything and in the end if you work in a hospital the patients call everyone in a white coat "Doctor."

I couldn't agree more!!!!

 

[whiskers]

In my opinion this whole thing revolves around our selfish individual desire to "one up" our classmates and get ahead of our perceived competitors.

The general public doesn't give a hot polish sausage if there is a trivial definition of a "forefoot" and a "rearfoot."

If their foot hurts they just want the dam thing fixed and they don't want to be told by any doctor "sorry, your foot has two categories, a forefoot that blah blah blah blah blah blah and I can't do anything for you but that will be 100 dollars anyway."

Heart surgeons don't divide the heart into atrial residencies and ventricle residencies and combined. The neurosurgeon doesn't divide the brain into the cerebellar, cortex, neocortex basal ganglia, etc.

If they did, they would probably have fewer pts too who favor someone who they understand.

The guy works on brains, the guy works on hearts, the guy works on feet, the guy works on hands. That's what people understand.

In my oinion, until we can produce a standard product that is understandable to the public, we'll have to just pretend to be heading in that direction, just like we have for the past ~100 yrs.

But again, in my opinion, that would take away all that fun of excluding our own peers.... and many in our profession seem to thrive on that aspect alone./