Its Official: MD/DPM Program Being Investigated

[doclm]

Poor Dr. Levinthal... Was he a victim of a posting parrot with a keen ear for intelligent talk?

Krabmas and Podman, from the biomechanics thread...see what I mean? I didn't even have to leave my bathroom and watch someone elses powerpoint presentation to be demonstrated the absolute power of a brilliantly academic mind... being creative.

As far as ruling out what schools he went to: Whiskers didn't go to Scholl!

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[molldoll2010dpm]

As far as ruling out what schools he went to: Whiskers didn't go to Scholl!

That's obvious!!

 

[jonwill]

That's obvious!!

I think that Whiskers is actually Feelgood

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I think that Whiskers is actually Feelgood

It is true I have a split personality but Dr Feelgood doesn't like cats.

 

[krabmas]

I have a quote that I think Wiskers may like.

"copy from one person = plagerism, copy from 2 = research"

 

[densmore22]

Gosh, I've missed so much. Ok, so personally, I'm split on this, I can see pro's and con's for both. But honestly, I'm leaning much more towards the negative side of a DPM/MD degree. Isn't a DPM with and MD just an Ortho w/ a foot and ankle specialty? Am I wrong? Plus the whole 2 separate residencies, I mean, that's just overkill. If they could consolidate the residency process into one 4 or 5 year, like an IM with a DPM surgical residency, then you might be onto something (I think FP just wouldn't cut it for management of the biochemical problems that most podiatric patients present with).

Someone stated earlier that a Ph.D/DPM would be better for our profession and I couldn't agree more. We're hurting for research people (though I think this will improve as time and applicants rise) and a Ph.D would serve the podiatric medical profession better. Yes, it is a dual degree, but for MD's that get there Ph.D they usually do 6 years of school then do a residency for their MD degree being that a Ph.D degree doesn't require a residency, so basically it's like going to school during the day, doing other Ph.D courses and doing research inbetween (I'm not 100% sure on the details, but I believe this is how it goes for most MD/Ph.D programs in the U.S.)

I just see the biggest hindrance to doing this is the residency, who's going to want to apply for 2 separate residencies, start from scratch for both and go through all that twice? I know I wouldn't, consolidation would be the key for me to get behind it. The other issue I have with this is as someone else eluded too earlier as well (I believe Podman) is that I highly doubt that the Physicians that have an MD/DPM degree would function as both, you would have to focus on one or the other and by doing so, neglecting one aspect would create deficiencies in the other. Also, which boards do you take? USMLE or the NBPME? Both? Again-a littel overkill to do both. There's so many kinks to get worked out it sounds like, I'm interested in what will happen with this. Not to steal, but that's my $0.02 also.

 

[Podman]

Gosh, I've missed so much. Ok, so personally, I'm split on this, I can see pro's and con's for both. But honestly, I'm leaning much more towards the negative side of a DPM/MD degree. Isn't a DPM with and MD just an Ortho w/ a foot and ankle specialty? Am I wrong? Plus the whole 2 separate residencies, I mean, that's just overkill. If they could consolidate the residency process into one 4 or 5 year, like an IM with a DPM surgical residency, then you might be onto something (I think FP just wouldn't cut it for management of the biochemical problems that most podiatric patients present with).

Someone stated earlier that a Ph.D/DPM would be better for our profession and I couldn't agree more. We're hurting for research people (though I think this will improve as time and applicants rise) and a Ph.D would serve the podiatric medical profession better. Yes, it is a dual degree, but for MD's that get there Ph.D they usually do 6 years of school then do a residency for their MD degree being that a Ph.D degree doesn't require a residency, so basically it's like going to school during the day, doing other Ph.D courses and doing research inbetween (I'm not 100% sure on the details, but I believe this is how it goes for most MD/Ph.D programs in the U.S.)

I just see the biggest hindrance to doing this is the residency, who's going to want to apply for 2 separate residencies, start from scratch for both and go through all that twice? I know I wouldn't, consolidation would be the key for me to get behind it. The other issue I have with this is as someone else eluded too earlier as well (I believe Podman) is that I highly doubt that the Physicians that have an MD/DPM degree would function as both, you would have to focus on one or the other and by doing so, neglecting one aspect would create deficiencies in the other. Also, which boards do you take? USMLE or the NBPME? Both? Again-a littel overkill to do both. There's so many kinks to get worked out it sounds like, I'm interested in what will happen with this. Not to steal, but that's my $0.02 also.

I honestly believe that we should take the USMLE as well as the NBPME in a manner similar to how the DO's have the COMLEX and the USMLE - but this i believe will happen in time if we really do make a stronger effort to improve our training, education, and really the value of our professional degree.

 

[whiskers]

It wasn't quite a word for word post. Actually, out Professor said that the Orthopedics actually get around $3,000 and Pods get $800 for the same bunion surgery. which is actually a way bigger difference. And she didn't say it in a power point, it was discussed with class participation. Maybe we just interact with our professors more than you do.

Good points... and since we're communicating at this unique level and really getting to know each other better, I must openly confess my truest passions.... I want to be a recyclable podiatry power point presentation in my next life. or a multiple of too... Or the letter "W" in a tasty alphabet stew.

With that off my chest, I can now get back on topic.

Is this additional degree just a brazen attempt to corner 1/5th of the alphabet market without buying/ownig any of those troublesome vowels?

 

[molldoll2010dpm]

Good points... and since we're communicating at this unique level and really getting to know each other better, I must openly confess my truest passions.... I want to be a recyclable podiatry power point presentation in my next life. or a multiple of too... Or the letter "W" in a tasty alphabet stew.

With that off my chest, I can now get back on topic.

Is this additional degree just a brazen attempt to corner 1/5th of the alphabet market without buying/ownig any of those troublesome vowels?

Unfortuantely I am unable to recycle a podiatry power point presentation on this subject for you since one has not been created yet. But I will keep you posted and maybe I will even send you one when it comes out.

 

[Northerner]

God, why is it every time we enter an SDN peripheral health professional subforum we're bombarded with people saying their degree is equivalent to an MD and raising forces to encroach on MD scope of practice, or, as is the case here and often in the Osteopathy forum, trying to "one-up" the MD?

And why am I letting it get to me?

 

[densmore22]

God, why is it every time we enter an SDN peripheral health professional subforum we're bombarded with people saying their degree is equivalent to an MD and raising forces to encroach on MD scope of practice, or, as is the case here and often in the Osteopathy forum, trying to "one-up" the MD?

And why am I letting it get to me?

Then why even come into our forums and try to start bashing on what we do when we're just trying to debate an issue that might someday affect all of us here. Maybe this type of response is exactly what you were expecting or hoping and now you'll start the trash talking about how DPM's aren't real doctors, how we're subhuman, how we even have a profession. One-don't do that, respect your fellow healthcare workers and value them for the service they provide and two-why am I wasting my time and response on some a-hole like you.

 

[jonwill]

God, why is it every time we enter an SDN peripheral health professional subforum we're bombarded with people saying their degree is equivalent to an MD and raising forces to encroach on MD scope of practice, or, as is the case here and often in the Osteopathy forum, trying to "one-up" the MD?

And why am I letting it get to me?

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it! Just my opinion but in order for any dual degree to succeed, there has to be a need for it. I don't think there is any need for a DPM/DO or DPM/MD. That is whole point of the referral system. When any doc (MD/DO included) encounters a problem that they are not trained to deal with, they send it to someone who can. Besides, we have plenty to do as it is!

 

[Northerner]

Then why even come into our forums and try to start bashing on what we do when we're just trying to debate an issue that might someday affect all of us here. Maybe this type of response is exactly what you were expecting or hoping and now you'll start the trash talking about how DPM's aren't real doctors, how we're subhuman, how we even have a profession. One-don't do that, respect your fellow healthcare workers and value them for the service they provide and two-why am I wasting my time and response on some a-hole like you.

Alright, I'll use a similar numbering system for my points.

1) I didn't attack you or your profession, I respect podiatry. I won't follow that with any caveats, comments, or disclaimers. I respect podiatry.

2) This isn't your forum. As you said, "this might someday affect all of us here". I'm giving my perspective, voicing my opinion, and expressing my frustration. Surely name-calling is inappropriate.

3) The reason you're "wasting time and response on some a-hole" like me is the same reason I "wasted time" responding in the first place - frustration. I understand that you're frustrated with people coming into the podiatry forum and bashing your profession - I have observed it in posters here in your forum (as you put it) and frankly, your tolerance is pretty impressive. I'll say it again - I do understand your frustration.

4) Maybe you can try to understand mine.

 

[densmore22]

Alright, I'll use a similar numbering system for my points.

1) I didn't attack you or your profession, I respect podiatry. I won't follow that with any caveats, comments, or disclaimers. I respect podiatry.

2) This isn't your forum. As you said, "this might someday affect all of us here". I'm giving my perspective, voicing my opinion, and expressing my frustration. Surely name-calling is inappropriate.

3) The reason you're "wasting time and response on some a-hole" like me is the same reason I "wasted time" responding in the first place - frustration. I understand that you're frustrated with people coming into the podiatry forum and bashing your profession - I have observed it in posters here in your forum (as you put it) and frankly, your tolerance is pretty impressive. I'll say it again - I do understand your frustration.

4) Maybe you can try to understand mine.

I get it, thanks for clarification. I was assuming you were going to start a whole tyrade (sp?) on how podiatry is inferior. My apologies.

 

[cool_vkb]

God, why is it every time we enter an SDN peripheral health professional subforum we're bombarded with people saying their degree is equivalent to an MD and raising forces to encroach on MD scope of practice, or, as is the case here and often in the Osteopathy forum, trying to "one-up" the MD?

And why am I letting it get to me?

That is because , if you read the curriculum of DO or present DPM curriculum. It is very same to the MD curriculum. So in a way, IN USA, these professions can claim the right to full scope of practice. Because we all have same amount of knowledge and clinical training (ofcourse some difference here and there). DPM is not a 2yr course where as soon as one graduates runs to open his own practice or do surgery. It is very much patterned like MD or DO. that is why they are in the process of appealing for scope of practice. and the same applied for DO schools. they have full training as an MD and thats why they think they are equivalent to a MD.

If you go to foreign countries that is a different story, there Podiatry and Osteopathy are lower level courses or certificate programs where as Medical School is a different thing (its a doctorate), so they )DPMs or DOs) cant call themselves as equivalent to MDs there and neither have surgical or unlimited prescription priviledges.

But in USA, because we are all studying same pattern as MDs and undergoing same amount of rigorous training. I think thats why you come across all these debates.

 

[bdaddyjolley]

As for my two cents, I think it is the wet dream of some pre-pods or some in Pod school to have a chance at an MD or DO as a pod because they are the ones that were rejected from MD and DO schools. So they jump on anything that has to do with Pods getting MD or DO degrees. Pod school was the backup plan and not the real passion for them.

I would just like a universal scope throughout the US so no matter what state you're in, you can practice the same and do what you were trained to do. If you were trained to do it in residency such as ankle surgery, then I think you should be able to do it outside of residency in practice. I chose podiatry because I wanted to work on the lower extremity, not the hands or arms etc. Podiatry is a great field with a lot of potential and I don't think we need an MD to be justified. We just need to clarify things within the field which is what 2015 wants to do. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

 

[jonwill]

As for my two cents, I think it is the wet dream of some pre-pods or some in Pod school to have a chance at an MD or DO as a pod because they are the ones that were rejected from MD and DO schools. So they jump on anything that has to do with Pods getting MD or DO degrees. Pod school was the backup plan and not the real passion for them.

I would just like a universal scope throughout the US so no matter what state you're in, you can practice the same and do what you were trained to do. If you were trained to do it in residency such as ankle surgery, then I think you should be able to do it outside of residency in practice. I chose podiatry because I wanted to work on the lower extremity, not the hands or arms etc. Podiatry is a great field with a lot of potential and I don't think we need an MD to be justified. We just need to clarify things within the field which is what 2015 wants to do. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

 

[mountain man]

Yes I must say I agree with you, that is, some people in podiatry believe MD or DO schools to be superior in some way (even if they are not). All in all and not yielding to specifics, we can justify some of this reasoning because most MD programs (MOST!) and DO programs have higher standards for admission relative to DPM programs (with the exception of some DPM schools). In my view, it is because MD is the most known title and even DOs have growing recognition, plus the unlimited scope and variety of options for specification of expertise that place osteopathy of allopathic medicine on a higher level in some folk's minds. I think anyone reading these posts should know that podiatric medicine is indeed a true branch of medicine, but slightly under construction with the veil slipping off when compared to DO and MD, also most people were not around for the construction of MD and DO (except for my family doc who is a DO from PCOM, and tells me lots of stories LOL!). There is no doubt that some DPMs would do a duel MD or DO degree just to show the medical community how similar the degrees are (I'm serious that they would do it for the hell of it), but I see it as a self full-filling goal to prove ones woth; however there is nothing wrong with it if you got the time, money and motivation (I just see it as a football player winning a game of men's softball, both are athletes). Even though it may not seem it from time to time, we know most healthcare professionals are very smart and educated people; so when the DPM programs show course for course their similarity to DO and MD programs we know that when it comes down to it even Harvard MD school would have to admit that DPM medical courses are just as complex and deserve respect. The down side to this is that many health care professionals are proud and arrogant people (even DPMs) because of their job importance, length of schooling, and complexity of tasks so it is not likely that anyone is willing to give anyone respect. Even for those who want to deny it, podiatry has come a long way from hell and it will not stop here. The topics you people cover are podiatry's biggest goals which are public out-reach, standardization, and unlimited scope. I think anyone would have to understand that when these goals are adressed, then we would see a big difference in the applicant pool, quality of applicant, improved admissions standards, ect...but what do I know I'm a vet school reject . Sorry for long post.

Mt. Man

 

[feetman]

We don't need the DPM/MD degree. It is pointless because our education is similiar to theirs so what is the point of learning the same materials twice. If that is the case, there should be a DO/MD as well. What we need more is the 2015 resolution with the universal scope. That my friend, will change podiatry forever for every pod in any state will be able to perform the same procedures. That will improve our abilities and allow us to perform the best qualify of care we can to our patients. Our main priority is to treat our patients with the best knowledge we have learned, not about the title behind our names.

Podiatry is a unique branch of medicine, just like osteopathic medicine, and eventually everyone will know how wonderful a profession podiatry is.

 

[PharmD/DPM]

Instead of MD/DPM, DO/DPM, PHD/DPM, what if medical schools added PharmD's to medical programs. Yes, this sounds odd, but why not a doctor that know's his drugs really well. ALL Doctors (DPM, MD, DO, DDS) need to know pharmacology, so why not add the doctor of pharmacy degree into some programs. Trust me, it's helped me get through many courses at Scholl and in clinic. From what I heard, pharm's one of the toughest and disliked courses in medical school. What do you guys think of adding PharmD? Yes, it wouldn't expand anybody's scope of practice, but it would definitely make you a more well-rounded and better doctor to help treat your patients.

 

[oncogene]

As for my two cents, I think it is the wet dream of some pre-pods or some in Pod school to have a chance at an MD or DO as a pod because they are the ones that were rejected from MD and DO schools. So they jump on anything that has to do with Pods getting MD or DO degrees. Pod school was the backup plan and not the real passion for them.

I would just like a universal scope throughout the US so no matter what state you're in, you can practice the same and do what you were trained to do. If you were trained to do it in residency such as ankle surgery, then I think you should be able to do it outside of residency in practice. I chose podiatry because I wanted to work on the lower extremity, not the hands or arms etc. Podiatry is a great field with a lot of potential and I don't think we need an MD to be justified. We just need to clarify things within the field which is what 2015 wants to do. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

I agree 100% with what you said here. I would only add that we should have equal pay for procedures. I think are politics should be focused on the national scope and equality of pay not a worhtless (to us) degree.

 

[densmore22]

I agree 100% with what you said here. I would only add that we should have equal pay for procedures. I think are politics should be focused on the national scope and equality of pay not a worhtless (to us) degree.

Oncogene-

Insurance companies won't pay you if you keep saying you blew out a tire. Haha. Hope those scrubs are treating you well, I worked my fingers to the bone making them for you.

Dens

 

[oncogene]

I know, they will probably tell me I should call a CAB and quit my crying.

Yea the scrubs are just fine my regards to the tailor. Shouldn't you be studying cell bio, slacker?

oncogene

 

[densmore22]

I know, they will probably tell me I should call a CAB and quit my crying.

Yea the scrubs are just fine my regards to the tailor. Shouldn't you be studying cell bio, slacker?

oncogene

Man, between facebook, SDN, TV, not going to class, sleeping, and going to the bars, there's no time to study-I'm just going to wing it, true Oncogene style. I wanna be like you.

 

[oncogene]

dens,

It's a tough job but someone has to do it.


oncogene

 

[helpfuldoc2b]

I just thought I would let everyone know that Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science, which is the home of the Scholl College of Podiatric Medicine is currently exploring a joint MD/DPM program. This program would be held in conjunction with the Chicago Medical School at RFU and would grant entering DPM students the right to obtain their MD degree as well. Ofcourse, this is still in the investigation stages and it will take several years before such a program can be implemented. The APMA, AMA, CPME, and LCME will all have to agree to such an endeavor, but if implemented it would be the first of its kind and would revolutionize podiatric medical education.

But honesty, what is the true purpose of a dual degree like that, and why is everyone so excited, is it hopes of someone who did not get into MD school have an alternative way of calling themselves an MD. I never heard of an MD who wants to be a DPM, but hear alot of stories other way around. Like one of the posters said if you want to be a DPM go to DPM school, if you want to be a doc, go to MD/DO school, dont waste money, time and more cirriculum to such a fruitless route. Whats next a DPM/DDS degree?

 

[Northerner]

But honesty, what is the true purpose of a dual degree like that, and why is everyone so excited, is it hopes of someone who did not get into MD school have an alternative way of calling themselves an MD. I never heard of an MD who wants to be a DPM, but hear alot of stories other way around. Like one of the posters said if you want to be a DPM go to DPM school, if you want to be a doc, go to MD/DO school, dont waste money, time and more cirriculum to such a fruitless route. Whats next a DPM/DDS degree?

Exactly. Or the peace of mind associated with being able to say legitimately that, "oh, I could have gone for the MD, but I decided not to."

It'd be interesting to see how admissions would be conducted - since the average GPA & MCAT of podiatry programs is so different from MD programs. That is to say, if you would have to gain independent admission to each program. It would be silly if you just had to get into the podiatry program, and then fill out a form to go for the MD/DPM obviously.

 

[Podman]

But honesty, what is the true purpose of a dual degree like that, and why is everyone so excited, is it hopes of someone who did not get into MD school have an alternative way of calling themselves an MD. I never heard of an MD who wants to be a DPM, but hear alot of stories other way around. Like one of the posters said if you want to be a DPM go to DPM school, if you want to be a doc, go to MD/DO school, dont waste money, time and more cirriculum to such a fruitless route. Whats next a DPM/DDS degree?

I don't know why you say "everyone is so excited" because quite a few of us, including myself don't like the idea of that program either. So on that basis, I agree with you. However, other than that your post seems to be missing the essence and point of this attempted dual degree - it is NOT a way for DPM's to say that they are MD's. When you have the time please go back to the earlier posts and see what I'm talking about - alot of political factors are definitely involved - mainly covering issues such as hospital previlidges, and inconsistency of scopes in some states.

So despite disagreeing with that program, I can see that they have a certain purpose - beyond the one you mentioned above. I, as well as others here I'm sure feel that its better to continue upgrading and maintaining a strong curriculum, and residency training over a dual degree - because you're right, in many ways it would be somewhat fruiteless. That being said, I don't think you will be hearing of a DPM/DDS degree.

 

[jonwill]

Whats next a DPM/DDS degree?

Feet AND teeth! Sweet!

 

[cool_vkb]

Feet AND teeth! Sweet!

Oh yeah man! according to Kaamasutra (indian book of lovemaking), the best lovemaking starts from feet or from mouth . So being perfect in feet and mouth is great. Looks like DPM/DDS will be hit for guys.

 

[doclm]

But honesty, what is the true purpose of a dual degree like that, and why is everyone so excited, is it hopes of someone who did not get into MD school have an alternative way of calling themselves an MD. I never heard of an MD who wants to be a DPM, but hear alot of stories other way around. Like one of the posters said if you want to be a DPM go to DPM school, if you want to be a doc, go to MD/DO school, dont waste money, time and more cirriculum to such a fruitless route. Whats next a DPM/DDS degree?

The only real advantage I could see from this dual degree is getting equal pay for the same procedure from insurance companies. Which would probably bring in an extra 100k per year. Another advantage would be recognition to orthopods that we are just as competent as they are in foot surgery and taking our own call for patients.

 

[doclm]

Exactly. Or the peace of mind associated with being able to say legitimately that, "oh, I could have gone for the MD, but I decided not to."

It'd be interesting to see how admissions would be conducted - since the average GPA & MCAT of podiatry programs is so different from MD programs. That is to say, if you would have to gain independent admission to each program. It would be silly if you just had to get into the podiatry program, and then fill out a form to go for the MD/DPM obviously.

Well, the GPA & MCAT are not that far off from DO schools. In the near future when more people apply to DPM programs, you will see the stats jump significantly as the people with poor stats are rejected. Also, at Scholl we have students that far surpassed the requirements to get into the Chicago Medical school. In addition, I have friends who were accepted to MD programs, but decided on Podiatry for a number of good reasons. You should know that getting an MD degree is more than filling out a form. If such a dual degree did solidify all the students would have to take the USMLE's on top of our similar Podiatric boards.

Just to make this known, it is not much easier to get through a DPM program versus an MD program. We have classes that are very similar in content and challenge. (Except Embryology) I would say a large difference between the DPM and MD program is retention rate of students between the first and second year. Although it may be much easier to get into a DPM program doesn't mean its that easy to complete.

 

[cool_vkb]

Well, the GPA & MCAT are not that far off from DO schools. In the near future when more people apply to DPM programs, you will see the stats jump significantly as the people with poor stats are rejected. Also, at Scholl we have students that far surpassed the requirements to get into the Chicago Medical school. In addition, I have friends who were accepted to MD programs, but decided on Podiatry for a number of good reasons. You should know that getting an MD degree is more than filling out a form. If such a dual degree did solidify all the students would have to take the USMLE's on top of our similar Podiatric boards.

Just to make this known, it is not much easier to get through a DPM program versus an MD program. We have classes that are very similar in content and challenge. (Except Embryology) I would say a large difference between the DPM and MD program is retention rate of students between the first and second year. Although it may be much easier to get into a DPM program doesn't mean its that easy to complete.

Hey DOCLM, how are you. Quick question for you. Is there any specific reason why we take some of our classes with PA and Path Assistsants.by taking with PAs isnt it that we are getting less exposure to Pharm and Path in comparision to MD students. I mean PA's dont need that much Pharm or Path and since we take classes with them. Iam afraid whether we are also trained less in those subjects along with them. Where as if we take them with MD students then we would be getting that exposure. Can you plz explain in detail.

 

[Northerner]

Well, the GPA & MCAT are not that far off from DO schools. In the near future when more people apply to DPM programs, you will see the stats jump significantly as the people with poor stats are rejected. Also, at Scholl we have students that far surpassed the requirements to get into the Chicago Medical school. In addition, I have friends who were accepted to MD programs, but decided on Podiatry for a number of good reasons. You should know that getting an MD degree is more than filling out a form. If such a dual degree did solidify all the students would have to take the USMLE's on top of our similar Podiatric boards.

Certainly I don't mean to go out of my way to point out something less than flattering about the stats issue, but what exactly makes you think the number of people applying to DPM programs will jump significantly?

So, just to run the numbers on these cases you'd mentioned at your school, that means for every person that is according to you competitive for an allopathic program (3.5/30 - which, according to average podiatry school admissions numbers is roughly +.3 GPA and +7 MCAT) in your podiatry class, there's someone who's got well under a 3.0 and an MCAT in the teens? And considering you made a point to say "far surpassed" the "requirements" for medical school, there's probably people doing even poorer in their pre-podiatry coursework to even it out to make the average what it is. Again - not trying to shine a spotlight on anything demeaning, but the fact does remain that it is a hell of a lot easier to get into podiatry school than medical school. What this means or does not mean is up for interpretation, but it is a fact that numbers-wise, the average podiatry applicant would be a statistical outlier to get into an MD program, and the reverse is not true.

I would like to take a moment to explain that I have a great deal of respect for podiatrists and the work they do, and I appreciate them as colleagues. The only reason I let myself get drawn into these ego debates is that sometimes people trivialize the MD degree by pointing out so fervently only the similarities between whatever peripheral health profession they're defending and the MD (often minimizing them to the point of calling the two equal), when in fact there is a significant disparity, and there may be a reason for that.

 

[cool_vkb]

Certainly I don't mean to go out of my way to point out something less than flattering about the stats issue, but what exactly makes you think the number of people applying to DPM programs will jump significantly?

So, just to run the numbers on these cases you'd mentioned at your school, that means for every person that is according to you competitive for an allopathic program (3.5/30 - which, according to average podiatry school admissions numbers is roughly +.3 GPA and +7 MCAT) in your podiatry class, there's someone who's got well under a 3.0 and an MCAT in the teens? And considering you made a point to say "far surpassed" the "requirements" for medical school, there's probably people doing even poorer in their pre-podiatry coursework to even it out to make the average what it is. Again - not trying to shine a spotlight on anything demeaning, but the fact does remain that it is a hell of a lot easier to get into podiatry school than medical school. What this means or does not mean is up for interpretation, but it is a fact that numbers-wise, the average podiatry applicant would be a statistical outlier to get into an MD program, and the reverse is not true.

I would like to take a moment to explain that I have a great deal of respect for podiatrists and the work they do, and I appreciate them as colleagues. The only reason I let myself get drawn into these ego debates is that sometimes people trivialize the MD degree by pointing out so fervently only the similarities between whatever peripheral health profession they're defending and the MD (often minimizing them to the point of calling the two equal), when in fact there is a significant disparity, and there may be a reason for that.

Just for my curosity. what is your view point on DOs. Do you think are they equal to MDs or MD is higher. just asking your view.

 

[krabmas]

We have classes that are very similar in content and challenge. (Except Embryology) .

NYCPM has to take and pass embryology of the whole body and it is also taught again in lower extremity anatomy.

It is one of the harder classes at NYCPM and taught by a histologist PhD that also teaches at Mount Sinai School of Medicine.

All the 8 school's cirriculums are slightly different. I think the only similarity of all 8 is biochem, no OBGYN, Lower extremity anatomy, and then there are many slight differences.

 

[Northerner]

Just for my curosity. what is your view point on DOs. Do you think are they equal to MDs or MD is higher. just asking your view.

Well, the D.O. degree has progressed in its training, acceptance, and hence scope of practice to the point where legally, they're equivalent. DO's are perfectly capable of practicing medicine, like many people probably are. Their education has been designed to be equivalent to an MD education. Acceptable. Personally, I'm confused. If it's the same thing as an MD degree, why do we need two separate degrees? As we've learned in America, "separate is inherently unequal". And we do observe differences between the two degrees, and most if not all quantitative measures seem to show the DO education is not to the same level (in student recruitment and licensing exam performance, at least, for whatever that's worth) as the MD education, not yet.

However, understand that MDs do see what was achieved by DOs and worry that the other peripheral degrees will try to do the same thing, or something similar. They do. Take for example issues like the current one discussed in this thread, or universal scope of practice initiatives for DPMs (basically making them orthopedic surgeons), or the new law in Oklahoma that makes optometrists' scope of practice to include much of ophthalmology (including surgery). We see degrees tacking on another year or so and going from NP to DNP, or PT to DPT, everyone goes by "Dr.", everyone wears the white coat, everyone's saying they can basically do whatever an MD does. Just know that this is a source of identity crisis for us, and we're not sure where it'll leave us - we're insecure about it, and worry about the consequences of opening up the rights, responsibilities, and public trust we hold so dear.

 

[krabmas]

Well, the D.O. degree has progressed in its training, acceptance, and hence scope of practice to the point where legally, they're equivalent. DO's are perfectly capable of practicing medicine, like many people probably are. Their education has been designed to be equivalent to an MD education. Acceptable. Personally, I'm confused. If it's the same thing as an MD degree, why do we need two separate degrees? As we've learned in America, "separate is inherently unequal". And we do observe differences between the two degrees, and most if not all quantitative measures seem to show the DO education is not to the same level (in student recruitment and licensing exam performance, at least, for whatever that's worth) as the MD education, not yet.

However, understand that MDs do see what was achieved by DOs and worry that the other peripheral degrees will try to do the same thing, or something similar. They do. Take for example issues like the current one discussed in this thread, or universal scope of practice initiatives for DPMs (basically making them orthopedic surgeons), or the new law in Oklahoma that makes optometrists' scope of practice to include much of ophthalmology (including surgery). We see degrees tacking on another year or so and going from NP to DNP, or PT to DPT, everyone goes by "Dr.", everyone wears the white coat, everyone's saying they can basically do whatever an MD does. Just know that this is a source of identity crisis for us, and we're not sure where it'll leave us - we're insecure about it, and worry about the consequences of opening up the rights, responsibilities, and public trust we hold so dear.

I see your point with the MDs worrying about us stepping on their turf but I don't agree that DPMs would become orthopedic surgeons.

There is more to pod than foot and ankle ortho. We are trained to recognize, diagnose and treat LE manifestations of systemic diseases as well as trauma to the LE and foot and ankle ortho stuff.

My interpretation of the DPM moving to an MD degree would help get a national scope. It would also allow the DPM to admit and care for the whole patient once admitted to the hospital. This does not mean doing a stent or bypass for the patient. Some states do not let pods admit to the hospital.

I think many pods and pod students are missing the point of the DPM to MD or even the DPM/MD degree. I do not think it is to get us an unlimited scope of practice or turn us into ortho foot and ankles. It is so that we can be true podiatric physicians.

 

[densmore22]

You don't think we're going to be Podiatric Physicians already by obtaining the DPM degree? I agree that there are many social and political implications about the DPM/MD degree, but I think legislation will allow us to standardize scope of practice and level the paying (no pun intended) field (for DPMs vs. Ortho MDs). Granted, just like progressing to the point of there actually being a program out there that grants the DPM/MD degree, legislation/laws/bills/whatever you call them will take mucho tiempo and mucho dinero to come to fruition. But I'm prolegislation for this type of thing because once the government recognizes it, it usually trickles down into the states, counties, cities, hospital policies and that means we'll be able to do whatever we need to, whenever we need to do it.

 

[cool_vkb]

Well, the D.O. degree has progressed in its training, acceptance, and hence scope of practice to the point where legally, they're equivalent. DO's are perfectly capable of practicing medicine, like many people probably are. Their education has been designed to be equivalent to an MD education. Acceptable. Personally, I'm confused. If it's the same thing as an MD degree, why do we need two separate degrees? As we've learned in America, "separate is inherently unequal". And we do observe differences between the two degrees, and most if not all quantitative measures seem to show the DO education is not to the same level (in student recruitment and licensing exam performance, at least, for whatever that's worth) as the MD education, not yet.

However, understand that MDs do see what was achieved by DOs and worry that the other peripheral degrees will try to do the same thing, or something similar. They do. Take for example issues like the current one discussed in this thread, or universal scope of practice initiatives for DPMs (basically making them orthopedic surgeons), or the new law in Oklahoma that makes optometrists' scope of practice to include much of ophthalmology (including surgery). We see degrees tacking on another year or so and going from NP to DNP, or PT to DPT, everyone goes by "Dr.", everyone wears the white coat, everyone's saying they can basically do whatever an MD does. Just know that this is a source of identity crisis for us, and we're not sure where it'll leave us - we're insecure about it, and worry about the consequences of opening up the rights, responsibilities, and public trust we hold so dear.

delete

 

[cool_vkb]

Well, the D.O. degree has progressed in its training, acceptance, and hence scope of practice to the point where legally, they're equivalent. DO's are perfectly capable of practicing medicine, like many people probably are. Their education has been designed to be equivalent to an MD education. Acceptable. Personally, I'm confused. If it's the same thing as an MD degree, why do we need two separate degrees? As we've learned in America, "separate is inherently unequal". And we do observe differences between the two degrees, and most if not all quantitative measures seem to show the DO education is not to the same level (in student recruitment and licensing exam performance, at least, for whatever that's worth) as the MD education, not yet.

However, understand that MDs do see what was achieved by DOs and worry that the other peripheral degrees will try to do the same thing, or something similar. They do. Take for example issues like the current one discussed in this thread, or universal scope of practice initiatives for DPMs (basically making them orthopedic surgeons), or the new law in Oklahoma that makes optometrists' scope of practice to include much of ophthalmology (including surgery). We see degrees tacking on another year or so and going from NP to DNP, or PT to DPT, everyone goes by "Dr.", everyone wears the white coat, everyone's saying they can basically do whatever an MD does. Just know that this is a source of identity crisis for us, and we're not sure where it'll leave us - we're insecure about it, and worry about the consequences of opening up the rights, responsibilities, and public trust we hold so dear.

You are the first person (non-pod or non-prepod) on this thread i saw who have explained so clearly why they have insecurity or worry related to our scope of practice. First i thought you are troll trying to do timepass with us by just pissing us off but you are really a good person who knows whats going on currently. I have great respect for you now. May god bless you.

 

[doclm]

Hey DOCLM, how are you. Quick question for you. Is there any specific reason why we take some of our classes with PA and Path Assistsants.by taking with PAs isnt it that we are getting less exposure to Pharm and Path in comparision to MD students. I mean PA's dont need that much Pharm or Path and since we take classes with them. Iam afraid whether we are also trained less in those subjects along with them. Where as if we take them with MD students then we would be getting that exposure. Can you plz explain in detail.

It's more of a timing issue. MD students take different classes at different times than we do. We get great exposure with the other students, its not that they get taught any better. The basic biomedical sciences department teaches most of the basics to everyone. In clinical anatomy with the MD students, some of the profs that have taught as Scholl for 25-30 years will teach certain anatomy topics to everyone.

 

[Northerner]

I see your point with the MDs worrying about us stepping on their turf but I don't agree that DPMs would become orthopedic surgeons.

There is more to pod than foot and ankle ortho. We are trained to recognize, diagnose and treat LE manifestations of systemic diseases as well as trauma to the LE and foot and ankle ortho stuff.

My interpretation of the DPM moving to an MD degree would help get a national scope. It would also allow the DPM to admit and care for the whole patient once admitted to the hospital. This does not mean doing a stent or bypass for the patient. Some states do not let pods admit to the hospital.

I think many pods and pod students are missing the point of the DPM to MD or even the DPM/MD degree. I do not think it is to get us an unlimited scope of practice or turn us into ortho foot and ankles. It is so that we can be true podiatric physicians.

Well, no orthopedic surgeon would be doing a stent or bypass, either. Orthopedic surgeons are also trained to recognize, diagnose, and treat LE manifestations of systemic diseases, as well as trauma. Orthopedics is one of the most highly sought-after specialties for MD graduates, one of the most competitive residencies to obtain, and one of the higher-paying.

Granted, these are not necessarily legitimate reasons to prevent other health professions from joining the field, but you can probably understand how bitter people would feel if after getting into MD school, working hard in medical school to get a competitive residency in orthopedics, somehow miraculously matching, and spending 5+ years in allopathic residency, there was a podiatrist who's allowed to do the same thing you are after 4 years of podiatry school and a 3 year residency. The same is the case with ophthalmology. They're concerned about the well-being of their field, since optometrists are pushing to have the same rights, responsibilities, and scope of practice (in essence). Sure there's some ego involved, some finances involved, some patient safety/care issues involved, but to be honest, it just doesn't seem right.

It would be acceptable and morally defensible to sacrifice these areas of MD practice to other health professionals if it were pretty clear that patient care would be better or at least as good with other benefits than the status quo (MD care), but, again - separate is inherently unequal, and the fact remains that significant differences exist between the education and training (we'll leave "practice" out of it) of an MD and DPM, and currently it doesn't seem to be in favor of the DPM.

 

[cool_vkb]

Well, no orthopedic surgeon would be doing a stent or bypass, either. Orthopedic surgeons are also trained to recognize, diagnose, and treat LE manifestations of systemic diseases, as well as trauma. Orthopedics is one of the most highly sought-after specialties for MD graduates, one of the most competitive residencies to obtain, and one of the higher-paying.

Granted, these are not necessarily legitimate reasons to prevent other health professions from joining the field, but you can probably understand how bitter people would feel if after getting into MD school, working hard in medical school to get a competitive residency in orthopedics, somehow miraculously matching, and spending 5+ years in allopathic residency, there was a podiatrist who's allowed to do the same thing you are after 4 years of podiatry school and a 3 year residency. The same is the case with ophthalmology. They're concerned about the well-being of their field, since optometrists are pushing to have the same rights, responsibilities, and scope of practice (in essence). Sure there's some ego involved, some finances involved, some patient safety/care issues involved, but to be honest, it just doesn't seem right.

It would be acceptable and morally defensible to sacrifice these areas of MD practice to other health professionals if it were pretty clear that patient care would be better or at least as good with other benefits than the status quo (MD care), but, again - separate is inherently unequal, and the fact remains that significant differences exist between the education and training (we'll leave "practice" out of it) of an MD and DPM, and currently it doesn't seem to be in favor of the DPM.

delete

 

[cool_vkb]

Well, no orthopedic surgeon would be doing a stent or bypass, either. Orthopedic surgeons are also trained to recognize, diagnose, and treat LE manifestations of systemic diseases, as well as trauma. Orthopedics is one of the most highly sought-after specialties for MD graduates, one of the most competitive residencies to obtain, and one of the higher-paying.

Granted, these are not necessarily legitimate reasons to prevent other health professions from joining the field, but you can probably understand how bitter people would feel if after getting into MD school, working hard in medical school to get a competitive residency in orthopedics, somehow miraculously matching, and spending 5+ years in allopathic residency, there was a podiatrist who's allowed to do the same thing you are after 4 years of podiatry school and a 3 year residency. The same is the case with ophthalmology. They're concerned about the well-being of their field, since optometrists are pushing to have the same rights, responsibilities, and scope of practice (in essence). Sure there's some ego involved, some finances involved, some patient safety/care issues involved, but to be honest, it just doesn't seem right.

It would be acceptable and morally defensible to sacrifice these areas of MD practice to other health professionals if it were pretty clear that patient care would be better or at least as good with other benefits than the status quo (MD care), but, again - separate is inherently unequal, and the fact remains that significant differences exist between the education and training (we'll leave "practice" out of it) of an MD and DPM, and currently it doesn't seem to be in favor of the DPM.

Boss! You cant do anything about it now. i know what you feel. Its true and i have heard from my other friends who are in med school and premeds. There's more than education, finance, patient safety,etc involved in this. Its your feelings. But man! you should not blame us, you should blame the AMA and the rules made by people 100 yrs back. The medical associations in other countries were very strictly opposing this type of allied health and as a result you wont find OD, DO, DPM,etc anywhere else and MDs are only supreme authority in healthcare there. Had the AMA back in 1900s stood up on the face of govt and said we dont want any OD, or DPM or PA and We MDs can do our job and we dont need this allied health professions.". Then none of this professions would have ever started or recognzied and you wouldnt have seen this day.

Now you cant do anything. Now these professions are recognized and established. They have their own Schools where great amount of research and other things are being done. these professions have evolved continously and now are seeking more rights. Its not our fault and sure its not the fault of present MDs about the present situation. But i think you guys have to get adjusted. There's nothing you cant do. Now what do you think. Govt is gonna say to CRNAs to close their shop and let the Anesthesiologist do the job. no way its gonna happen. I guess you should now accept the reality and start accepting that other professions are indeed comparable to MDs.

 

[Podman]

Well, no orthopedic surgeon would be doing a stent or bypass, either. Orthopedic surgeons are also trained to recognize, diagnose, and treat LE manifestations of systemic diseases, as well as trauma. Orthopedics is one of the most highly sought-after specialties for MD graduates, one of the most competitive residencies to obtain, and one of the higher-paying.

Granted, these are not necessarily legitimate reasons to prevent other health professions from joining the field, but you can probably understand how bitter people would feel if after getting into MD school, working hard in medical school to get a competitive residency in orthopedics, somehow miraculously matching, and spending 5+ years in allopathic residency, there was a podiatrist who's allowed to do the same thing you are after 4 years of podiatry school and a 3 year residency. The same is the case with ophthalmology. They're concerned about the well-being of their field, since optometrists are pushing to have the same rights, responsibilities, and scope of practice (in essence). Sure there's some ego involved, some finances involved, some patient safety/care issues involved, but to be honest, it just doesn't seem right.

It would be acceptable and morally defensible to sacrifice these areas of MD practice to other health professionals if it were pretty clear that patient care would be better or at least as good with other benefits than the status quo (MD care), but, again - separate is inherently unequal, and the fact remains that significant differences exist between the education and training (we'll leave "practice" out of it) of an MD and DPM, and currently it doesn't seem to be in favor of the DPM.

First of all, I get your point of view - However it appears a little misguided as you make it seem as though DPMs study witch-craft and infiltrate the field of medicine with random "procedures" - we study quite a bit of medicine too - I really don't want to come off as defensive or anything but there's a post in this forum entitled "what is podiatric medicine?" It pretty much sums up our education, rotations, and training - I'm not calling myself equal to orthopoedic surgeons - but I'm saying with the amount of medicine that we learn and are trained to use, we are qualified to treat the patient for problems and diseases manifesting in the lower extremity - including surgical correction. We have professional and surgical boards to give us this qualification. Not everything about podiatry is rear-foot and ankle surgery, there is quite a bit of diabetic and wound care - so we're not the same as orthopods by all means. We are a separate specialty on its own - i'm sure you can appreciate the fact that many conditions manifest in the lower extremity and do often get missed or misdiagnosed by general practictioners.

The point here is that we're not calling ourselves physicians and we are not undermining the value of the MD curriculum - you will note that the members here stress on the use of the term podiatric physician, and podiatric medical schools (although, some members study at podiatric schools that are fully integrated with DO schools). I don't think that we are infiltrating the MD-turf, but rather, we earned the previlidge of treating patients for lower extremity conditions - everything that we do is governed by board certification. Granted not every podiatrist is board certified for foot and ankle surgery, but at least most of the recent grads are. Take the profession for what its worth - foot and ankle (lower extremity) specialists - who believe it or not, understand the fact that the foot is connected to the rest of the body - that is why we go through many medical rotations like internal med, pathology, and neurology.

 

[Northerner]

Boss! You cant do anything about it now. i know what you feel. Its true and i have heard from my other friends who are in med school and premeds. There's more than education, finance, patient safety,etc involved in this. Its your feelings. But man! you should not blame us, you should blame the AMA and the rules made by people 100 yrs back. The medical associations in other countries were very strictly opposing this type of allied health and as a result you wont find OD, DO, DPM,etc anywhere else and MDs are only supreme authority in healthcare there. Had the AMA back in 1900s stood up on the face of govt and said we dont want any OD, or DPM or PA and We MDs can do our job and we dont need this allied health professions.". Then none of this professions would have ever started or recognzied and you wouldnt have seen this day.

Now you cant do anything. Now these professions are recognized and established. They have their own Schools where great amount of research and other things are being done. these professions have evolved continously and now are seeking more rights. Its not our fault and sure its not the fault of present MDs about the present situation. But i think you guys have to get adjusted. There's nothing you cant do. Now what do you think. Govt is gonna say to CRNAs to close their shop and let the Anesthesiologist do the job. no way its gonna happen. I guess you should now accept the reality and start accepting that other professions are indeed comparable to MDs.

MDs don't want medicine to ourselves, we want the same patient care paradigm everyone else does - collaborative interprofessional healthcare delivery.

I should clarify - I am not suggesting the current pressure on MDs is anyone's "fault", or even necessarily the result of anyone's "ambition", per se (though in some cases, as I have previously posted, it seems like it). You're right, the fact that these peripheral professionals exist and openings seem to present themselves to advance these professionals practically paves the road for expansion of scope. My contention (and that of many like me) is that the expansion of scope, while beneficial in many ways (efficiency, mainly), has limits.

The fact is, we don't know what kind of compromise the standard of care will bear if scope is opened up to people with training that's not on par with the status quo. Now, you can argue whether or not the training is "on par" or not, that's not really an issue I'm going to argue. But patients care. They want the best. Deserve the best. Smartest, best school, best trained, best skill, etc. (Sure, I agree that what matters to patients is sometimes variable) While it's pretty naive to believe this is maximized for our patient population, the fact remains - if given the choice, you want the best. Since expansion of scope itself implies a change from the status quo, we don't know what's in store. It's a little risky, and who's going to pay the price if it's not the right move? All of us.

 

[Northerner]

First of all, I get your point of view - However it appears a little misguided as you make it seem as though DPMs study witch-craft and infiltrate the field of medicine with random "procedures" - we study quite a bit of medicine too - I really don't want to come off as defensive or anything but there's a post in this forum entitled "what is podiatric medicine?" It pretty much sums up our education, rotations, and training - I'm not calling myself equal to orthopoedic surgeons - but I'm saying with the amount of medicine that we learn and are trained to use, we are qualified to treat the patient for problems and diseases manifesting in the lower extremity - including surgical correction. We have professional and surgical boards to give us this qualification. Not everything about podiatry is rear-foot and ankle surgery, there is quite a bit of diabetic and wound care - so we're not the same as orthopods by all means. We are a separate specialty on its own - i'm sure you can appreciate the fact that many conditions manifest in the lower extremity and do often get missed or misdiagnosed by general practictioners.

The point here is that we're not calling ourselves physicians and we are not undermining the value of the MD curriculum - you will note that the members here stress on the use of the term podiatric physician, and podiatric medical schools (although, some members study at podiatric schools that are fully integrated with DO schools). I don't think that we are infiltrating the MD-turf, but rather, we earned the previlidge of treating patients for lower extremity conditions - everything that we do is governed by board certification. Granted not every podiatrist is board certified for foot and ankle surgery, but at least most of the recent grads are. Take the profession for what its worth - foot and ankle (lower extremity) specialists - who believe it or not, understand the fact that the foot is connected to the rest of the body - that is why we go through many medical rotations like internal med, pathology, and neurology.

This post captures pretty well my vision of what I think ideally podiatry is and frankly, should remain to be. It's a pretty good niche. As I said, I've got nothing but respect for it.

 

[Podman]

This post captures pretty well my vision of what ideally podiatry is and frankly, remain to be. It's a pretty good niche. As I said, I've got nothing but respect for it.

Then we are on the same page

 

[cool_vkb]

MDs don't want medicine to ourselves, we want the same patient care paradigm everyone else does - collaborative interprofessional healthcare delivery.

I should clarify - I am not suggesting the current pressure on MDs is anyone's "fault", or even necessarily the result of anyone's "ambition", per se (though in some cases, as I have previously posted, it seems like it). You're right, the fact that these peripheral professionals exist and openings seem to present themselves to advance these professionals practically paves the road for expansion of scope. My contention (and that of many like me) is that the expansion of scope, while beneficial in many ways (efficiency, mainly), has limits.

The fact is, we don't know what kind of compromise the standard of care will bear if scope is opened up to people with training that's not on par with the status quo. Now, you can argue whether or not the training is "on par" or not, that's not really an issue I'm going to argue. But patients care. They want the best. Deserve the best. Smartest, best school, best trained, best skill, etc. (Sure, I agree that what matters to patients is sometimes variable) While it's pretty naive to believe this is maximized for our patient population, the fact remains - if given the choice, you want the best. Since expansion of scope itself implies a change from the status quo, we don't know what's in store. It's a little risky, and who's going to pay the price if it's not the right move? All of us.

So lets say, What if a DPM or a OD or anyother proffesion proves his clinical competency and patient safety by the virtue of his training and exams in front of a group of MDs who conduct that exam. Then would you be happy to accept that person as someone equal to MD or you would still say that MDs are better than him. Iam just asking. i have nothing againts u , infact i respect you. And iam asking these irritating questions just bcoz you have very extensive knowledge and i am learning from you a lot from these discussions.