Just an observation...

[Electrophile]

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I don't hang out on the pre-med/physician boards much, just every once in a while since most pre-meds irritate the crap out of me, but I heard about this infamous 3 year old thread.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=195799

500 posts in (which is only half way), I'm really surprised how petty and snarky a lot of the pre-meds, med students, residents, and even attendings are. Well, not totally surprised, I was pre-med until my junior year of college. 🙄 Anyways, even on our most heated threads (like one of the nutrition threads and the debt thread), I think people still stay pretty civil. 👍

And as much as stuff like having to PTS animals for the owner because they can't pay or culling animals because they don't meet the bottom line really sucks, it still doesn't seem quite as bad the huge mess of human health care. I wonder if the relative autonomy is worth the trade off of a lot less pay?

 

[jkq202]

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[david594]

Do vet students feel like they're losing the best years of their life in libraries? That's not how I pictured it...I mean I know it's going to be a very heavy workload, but there must be some time for friends and leisure right?

Losing the best years of your life in a library?? Seriously?

From undergrad those late nights working in the student union on projects, suffering through miserable assignments, and feeling like I never studied enough is the only reason I would have considered those the "best years of my life". Going out to a bar on a friday night felt so much more justified after a week of studying for that big final/project/whatever.

And I cannot wait to do it again.

 

[Electrophile]

But I was also wondering whether vet school would be as bad as med school (but kind of too afraid to ask since everyone on this forum wants to go so bad). Do vet students feel like they're losing the best years of their life in libraries? That's not how I pictured it...I mean I know it's going to be a very heavy workload, but there must be some time for friends and leisure right?

Absolutely positively do NOT be afraid to ask the hard questions. The starry eyed naivete is important to get over. It's kind of like getting serious or engaged, you HAVE to look at things eyes wide open. It's not all playing with puppies and kitties and horsies all day. You'll see abuse, neglect, deadbeat clients, you name it. You won't get paid extra or get extra respect for being a martyr. But you're right, I do think the large amount of required shadowing we have to do is good.

Having several friends who are either in or who have graduated from med school, yeah, it's the same if not worse. Granted, I've only started second year, but as much as it sucked A LOT, you can have time for friends, family, and leisure. You'll make time for what's important to you. Do I study every single day? No, I usually don't study at all on Fridays or Saturdays if I can possibly help it. Do I have a 4.0? No way. But do I still try and spend time with my husband and our dogs? Yes. Which is more important long term?

 

[jkq202]

Losing the best years of your life in a library?? Seriously?

From undergrad those late nights working in the student union on projects, suffering through miserable assignments, and feeling like I never studied enough is the only reason I would have considered those the "best years of my life". Going out to a bar on a friday night felt so much more justified after a week of studying for that big final/project/whatever.

And I cannot wait to do it again.

The "losing the best years of your life" phrase is from someone on the pre-med forum. Yes, I'm serious- a lot of the med students felt that way. And I've been through some heavy undergrad classes too, I'm wondering more about veterinary school.

 

[dpcdoc]

"Losing the best years of your life in a library" ?????

While studying for hours on end is not all that enjoyable in and of itself, most of us starting and already in Vet school have worked their tails off to get here. The fact that a lifelong dream is coming to fruition and having to study because of it is a wonderful thing. Also, in my opinion it will be easier to stay motivated while studying information directly related to my chosen profession instead of memorizing organic reaction mechanisms for hours on end. There are far worse places to spend your time than in a library, studying to accomplish your next goal in life.

 

[ylrebmik]

Wow. Do a lot of you vet students and post-vet students feel the same? (wouldn't do vet medicine if you had the choice?)

 

[chris03333]

Wow. Do a lot of you vet students and post-vet students feel the same? (wouldn't do vet medicine if you had the choice?)

I would do it again. vet school was very very time consuming and residency is actually harder, but yes I would do it again. Now if you told me that they decided that we needed to repeat vet school again after so many years of practice, I would tell you there is no beepin way I am doing that again😉

 

[Electrophile]

I'm only a little over a year done, but it's kinda like grad school for me. Was I glad I did it? Yes. Would I do it again if someone was like, "repeat the last 4 years"? Doubt it. Though I'm liking second year more than first as it's more applied. Unlike some of my classmates I've talked to, I don't regret going though.

 

[rexosaurus]

A ton of vets I have spoke with have actually said these will be the best years of our lives! You make so many new friends, go through so many new experiences, that we will look back on the next 4 years as a wonderful, though tough, time in our lives. I hope it's true!

 

[bclover]

Chirs,

You mentioned that residency is actually harder than the four years of vet school itself. Obviously, I haven't even started vet school and I know that I still don't know what it will be like - difficulty, stress, etc., and am a bit undecided on whether residency would even be for me, so your comment caught my eye. Can you divulge details on the difficulty or other thoughts you now have about residency in general? Of course, I dont mean the reasons to do it, etc., but the experience itself...

Thanks!

 

[chris03333]

Chirs,

You mentioned that residency is actually harder than the four years of vet school itself. Obviously, I haven't even started vet school and I know that I still don't know what it will be like - difficulty, stress, etc., and am a bit undecided on whether residency would even be for me, so your comment caught my eye. Can you divulge details on the difficulty or other thoughts you now have about residency in general? Of course, I dont mean the reasons to do it, etc., but the experience itself...

Thanks!

Vet school is tough because of the amount of material. You learn that that is very broad. Residency is "harder" (my opinion) because you start to learn very very detailed information in your particular field, so still are a student, but you are also a doctor and have responsibility for your patients (they are now your patients unlike vet school). The amount of time you spend is just as much, if not more, in residency than in vet school.

Now if you asked me which I liked more, residency wins by far! If you really love a particular field, you will enjoy your residency. I definately would not recommend a residency to someone who did not know for sure that the particular field was want they wanted to do though.

Hope that helps you🙂

 

[jkq202]

chris, what's your residency in? How did you know that's what you wanted to do? How did you get accepted to your residency (was it just grades, or did you have other experiences that made you a good candidate)? Did you go into it right after an internship or did you work for a bit before doing residency?

 

[chris03333]

chris, 1.what's your residency in? 2.How did you know that's what you wanted to do? 3.How did you get accepted to your residency (was it just grades, or did you have other experiences that made you a good candidate)? 4. Did you go into it right after an internship or did you work for a bit before doing residency?

1. Comparative Medicine/ Lab Animal Medicine
2. I knew before vet school this is what I wanted (most people do not figure out what specialty they want to persue until 4th year vet school/internship)
3. Combination of both, plus interviewing likely factored also.
4. Neither. I went straight from graduation to residency. My field, primate medicine, and pathology are some of the programs where people can go straight to residency without internship (not an easy route though).

 

[StealthDog]

Ah well, according to this thread, vets make more money than MDs, it's not as hard to get into vet school as med school, and we don't have to work as hard because you shoulder less responsibility when you work on animals than when you work on people. 😛

Silly med students. I say we just keep quiet and don't tell them that vet students generally like being vet students 🙂

 

[chris03333]

Silly med students. I say we just keep quiet and don't tell them that vet students generally like being vet students 🙂

You know that is not gonna happen😀

 

[Electrophile]

Ack, couldn't help it, had to add to the thread! 😀

 

[PrimalMU]

At least we don't have to worry about the prospect of socialized animal medicine...

🙂

I'm not even going to bother adding any more to that thread. You can tell that the majority of them have the God-complex that a lot of med students are known for. They are the type that cannot be argued with, and only throw out insults rather than any meaningful commentary (yes, I'm talking to you, Pinkertinkle. BTW, I haven't called anyone a douche bag since high school...).

 

[chordy4]

yeah, i realized it was better just to not get involved after posting the ACTUAL statistics of vet school vs. med school admissions rates (which are the same) and then having it completely ignored/disregarded/still disputed afterwards... 🙄

way for everyone to freak out on Electrophile though, for what i thought was a rather innocuous comment.

 

[PrimalMU]

Well of course they freaked out. The only way they could find ammo to fire at Electrophile was to to exaggerate the post...

 

[CookieBear]

Wow. Do a lot of you vet students and post-vet students feel the same? (wouldn't do vet medicine if you had the choice?)

(I haven't peeked at the med forum thread(s) posted here... I may or may not... just not wanting to get sucked in...)

I'll comment on how I feel, after first year, and going into second year awfully soon: even at the end of last [spring] semester, there were still many days that, as I walked to the vet med building from the parking lot, I looked up and couldn't help but think to myself, "Holy ****, I'm in vet school!" (That's usually followed up with, "In KANSAS!" 😀

I've never had to study so hard to pull the mediocre grades that I pull. If I had applied myself this much in school before, I would've done better. One exception would be organic chem. I think I worked as hard in that course as I do now in vet school.

And admittedly, I don't study every day, and I'm often tempted to shut my wi-fi connection off to keep me off the darn internet. Staying focused on the material I need to absorb is often hard. I confess, I should/could study more efficiently more of the time.

I wouldn't trade it for the world. I still feel like it's a miracle and dream come true, and I only hope that I will make a good doctor. It's scary how much stuff I'm already forgetting!

 

[twelvetigers]

Yikes, that thread is too much. I'm just going to avoid it now, I think. I don't like arguing on the internet with faceless lines of text, it's just so... unnerving. Oh, and pointless.

I want to be a vet. I don't want to treat humans. There's just no passion there. So I'll be a vet. This will be my choice regardless of cost, income, or the possibility that REAL doctors will assume that I have it easy and clearly could not have succeeded in their field, regardless of the fact that I had no desire to do such in the first place.

 

[Electrophile]

Well of course they freaked out. The only way they could find ammo to fire at Electrophile was to to exaggerate the post...

I was just highly impressed that I was being called a guy! I think Elizabeth I said something to the effect that that was a great compliment in a man's world. 🙄

 

[twelvetigers]

Girl, you sure do know how to stir the pot.

 

[CookieBear]

"...I'm pretty sure no MD has come up with a cure for Creutzfeld-Jakob, so why don't ya get right on that, mkay?"

😆

I totally got sucked into reading ... priceless.

 

[Electrophile]

Only when merited, as it is in this situation. 😀 The ignorant attitude of a small number of MDs towards DVMs is one of the many reasons we have the same debt load as med students but half (or less) the pay. I feel no need to drive a Lexus SUV or have a country club membership, so that doesn't doesn't bother me so much as the "awww, you can give shots to animals, how cute!" attitude.

Plus the one complaining at the price. Now, I don't encourage price gouging, but I do think we should charge fairly. Some of these self satisfied pre-meds and med students should ditch mommy and daddy's medical insurance and see how much it costs to pay in cash for medical bills. Then that $500 to mend Fluffy's broken leg with hardware doesn't sound quite as bad as the $5000 when you do the same and have to go to the ER and OR.

 

[chordy4]

I was just highly impressed that I was being called a guy! I think Elizabeth I said something to the effect that that was a great compliment in a man's world. 🙄

yeah, that cracked me up...especially the insinuation that you were trying to act like some macho guy and "impress" a.k.a hit-on some chicks 😀

 

[david594]

Plus the one complaining at the price. Now, I don't encourage price gouging, but I do think we should charge fairly. Some of these self satisfied pre-meds and med students should ditch mommy and daddy's medical insurance and see how much it costs to pay in cash for medical bills. Then that $500 to mend Fluffy's broken leg with hardware doesn't sound quite as bad as the $5000 when you do the same and have to go to the ER and OR.

Lets not go there with that one....

Maybe they just feel ripped off since they know they bill $5000 for repair of that broken leg and some insurance company will pay them $1200 and their hospital will call it good. Half will then go to administration/mal-practice costs and they end up not making much more than the vet.

 

[Electrophile]

How do they explain the huge 50K pay disparity then? I'm not even talking about an equine intern versus a tenured attending cardiologist or neurologist. I'm thinking a family practice physician versus a community practice vet, both who don't own their respective practices. I understand to some extent why they complain, but I don't think it quite makes up for the difference.

 

[Emio]

Lets not go there with that one....

Maybe they just feel ripped off since they know they bill $5000 for repair of that broken leg and some insurance company will pay them $1200 and their hospital will call it good. Half will then go to administration/mal-practice costs and they end up not making much more than the vet.

hahahaha, suckers!!

 

[reefervet]

I liked it better when they didn't know anything about us. Well they still don't, but I think any pre-meds/med students that read that are going to walk away with even MORE wrong impressions.

One of the most common questions for vet school interviews is "why not human medicine?" Only a unique med school applicant would be asked, "why not veterinary medicine?"

So, it is true, from the beginning this is something that we have to think about and come up with an honest answer to. It is also true that it is something human doctors probably never have to think about.

 

[dyachei]

It's a little disheartening to hear them continually compare companion animals with vehicles. But I feel like posting on that thread is like feeding a group of trolls.

 

[Electrophile]

No worries, I'm pretty much done with them. First I get called a douchebag (which is a first), then a guy, then that I hate all med students and physicians (which isn't true, I've gotten along well with those in my family and those that were my friends from my pre-med days) and that I'm mentally unbalanced? 😱 Now we're just talking past each other, so anyways, I made my points and I give up. As much as I like a good forum debate , this is also why I prefer having these kinds of conversations with people in person. Ah well...

I think it probably unnerves them that our profession is also critically important to public health and it is so similar to theirs, as most of them clearly had no idea. Having a number of physicians in the family and wanting to be one myself for a long time, there's way more similarities than differences. The intrinsic or extrinsic value of the patient has nothing to do with how difficult treatment is. They have to deal with a lot lately, like the nurse practitioner thing and a lot of MDs have a thinly veiled intolerance of DOs, so that's my take on their "I'm a med student and I crap rainbows" attitudes. When you're mucking out the stalls of your patients, it's a little more difficult to have that attitude. 😀

Goodness, I need to start getting to bed at a reasonable hour. School starts in a little over a week! Night all!

 

[StealthDog]

It just makes me sad to see comments that I expect from C or D clients coming from future MDs. You know- "Why would I pay to fix a cat when I can get a new one for free?" or "I can't believe the vet would try and charge me $800 for a $20 cat- that's absurd!" or "Of course most people would pay more to fix their car than their pet- cars cost more!"... And then devolving into talk about why bother caring for animals that we're going to slaughter anyway and eating pet chickens...

I would think that MDs would have more respect for life in general than that... but I guess not all people are animal people. :-/

 

[dyachei]

It just makes me sad to see comments that I expect from C or D clients coming from future MDs. You know- "Why would I pay to fix a cat when I can get a new one for free?" or "I can't believe the vet would try and charge me $800 for a $20 cat- that's absurd!" or "Of course most people would pay more to fix their car than their pet- cars cost more!"... And then devolving into talk about why bother caring for animals that we're going to slaughter anyway and eating pet chickens...

I would think that MDs would have more respect for life in general than that... but I guess not all people are animal people. :-/

I really wonder what makes it so hard for them to understand that other people might respect animal life even if they aren't for animal rights. I have seen so many clients come in and treat their animal as their child. I can't imagine that the attitude they take is going to help them in the future. Especially if they see a vet or one of those pet parents (recently went to a meeting and they told us they no longer consider them "owners") and say the wrong thing.

 

[ylrebmik]

It just makes me sad to see comments that I expect from C or D clients coming from future MDs. You know- "Why would I pay to fix a cat when I can get a new one for free?" or "I can't believe the vet would try and charge me $800 for a $20 cat- that's absurd!" or "Of course most people would pay more to fix their car than their pet- cars cost more!"... And then devolving into talk about why bother caring for animals that we're going to slaughter anyway and eating pet chickens...

I would think that MDs would have more respect for life in general than that... but I guess not all people are animal people. :-/

haha I got so angry reading your post. It's just not doctors though... thats my entire family and most people I know. They just don't care unless their tv tells them to care or it affects them. But, honestly, most of the people I know that want to be med students aren't nessisarily like that... unfortunately they are completely ignorant right now about what they have to go through.. but then again they are only high school students and most of them won't be doctors and the others... well... yeah.

 

[cozycleo]

That whole thread and the turns it took surprised me. I don't really know any med or pre-med students (other than two cousins who want to do surgery and dentistry - but I don't really talk to them much), so I thought it had potential to be such an interesting conversation.

One of my coworkers has a son in med school at my current college. If I ever get the chance to meet him I'd love to talk to him about it.

 

[david594]

Ironically I feel like a few of our best clients are Dr's and Nurses. They usually understand the medical necessity when the vet says we need bloodwork and x-rays for fluffys vomiting. They also tend to realize that providing medical care is not cheap and understand the costs involved(or simply make enough money to not care?).

 

[rexosaurus]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and say that pre-meds think they are better. It's that simple. Everyone wants to believe that they have to work harder, study longer, strive the most because it's validating. I think it will always be this way, and I don't think it's personal. (Except in Electrophile's case, they were just mean to her!)

 

[PrimalMU]

Ironically I feel like a few of our best clients are Dr's and Nurses. They usually understand the medical necessity when the vet says we need bloodwork and x-rays for fluffys vomiting. They also tend to realize that providing medical care is not cheap and understand the costs involved(or simply make enough money to not care?).

That can also be a double-edged sword. I've heard several stories of nurses who think they can treat their own animals and end up rushing their animal to the vet because they really messed up. Like every profession, there are the humble ones, and then there are the ones who think they know everything.

I agree you rexosaurus. Most med students probably do think they are better, either because of the greater wages doctors make, or simply the perceived difference of the value of patients as Electrophile mentioned. Of course, there are probably some pre-vet students who think they are superior because they have to be able to treat several species. However, as Electrophile also mentioned, its a little easier to be humble about your profession when at the end of the day you have a doctorate degree in one and and a shovel for cleaning stalls in the other.

 

[jkq202]

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[nyanko]

yeah, i hate being called something I'm not by people who twist my words and don't really listen to what i'm saying.😉

Perhaps if you didn't post like a creepy animal rights lunatic I wouldn't think that you are one.

 

[jkq202]

.

 

[PrimalMU]

well not everyone thinks animal rights is lunatic.

Only the crazy ones do.

 

[nyanko]

Only the crazy ones do.

Love the link in your sig.

 

[jkq202]

.

 

[PrimalMU]

Eh, I've been up for 18 hours today... sue me. 😉

 

[jkq202]

haha yea i feel your pain (GRE in 2 days). 😴

 

[PrimalMU]

Actually, now I remember how that was supposed to read! "Only the crazy ones do not think animal rights is lunatic."

And yikes, good luck with the GREs!

 

[yaah]

Please try to keep discussions civil. The thread will be closed if it continues on a discussion of what does or does not constitute being crazy.