Letter of Recommendation from PI Emergency HELP!

[type42tardis]

Hello everybody,

Let me start by saying thank for taking to the time to reply to my thread. I am premed student who is planning to apply to medical school this cycle(2017). I currently perform research at the cardiology research department at my local VA hospital. Today, when at research, I was told that my contributions as a volunteer was no longer needed. I was pretty much fired. I was told that it was due to the expanding nature of the research department, and that due to the limited space, a more capable researcher was hired as a full time employee to replace me. I was devastated. I thought I was doing a good job, but I guess my lack of experience in research caused me to be inadequate.

Anyway, the issue I now have is that the PI in charge of the research department is probably not going to write me a letter of recommendation now. Therefore, should I include my research experience on the application to medical school without a letter of recommendation from my PI? Will it look suspicious? Also, I now only have 1 LOR from a doctor. I am so lost right now. Should I even bother applying? I am currently waiting to get my MCAT score back.

My other Letter of recommendations include:

-2 Science professors (freshmen chemistry & Physics 2 professor)
-2 Non-science professor (professional writing & cultural anthropology)
-1 Physician (Head of cardiology at VA hospital)
-1 Character Letter (7+ year Taekwondo instructor

My academic credentials:

• Degrees
  • Major in Biomedical Sciences
  • Minor in Biomedical Physics
  • Certificate in General Business
• GPA
  • Science: 3.86
  • Overall: 3.89
• Volunteering Hrs: 115 hrs
• Shadowing hrs: about 100 hrs
• Extracurriculars:
  • 2nd degree black belt in Taekwondo.
    • I would train for 1.5 hours a day, 6 days a week. Placed 1st place in multiple local tournaments, but nothing national level.
  • Work
    • I have been working 20-25 hrs a week throughout my time in college.
    • I have worked at the same job for the entire duration of my undergraduate studies, and have earned the rank of supervisor
  • Research
    • I have been working in the Cardiology research department at the VA hospital near the university campus. This is the same hospital where I have 115 volunteer hours.
    • I was only able to start performing research this semester due too the unexpected time it took for my application to be processed.
    • About 60 hrs of research
  • Risk Manager for Taekwondo club - 3 semesters
    • Two of my close friends and I started a taekwondo club at my university. The goal was to create an environment where people could come and train so that they may stay sharp. We also wanted to provide a place where people who wanted to try taekwondo for the first time could get their toes wet.
    • As the Risk manager Duties include:
      • Check all equipment, to ensure that it is safe to use.
      • Provide CPR/First aid when necessary.
      • Inform all club members of proper safety and emergency procedures

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[RogueBanana]

I don't see why the PI wouldn't write you an LOR. If the reasons behind you being let go are as you say, he should have no problem saying "tardis is a great kid, I regret having to see him go but he will be a great Med student"

Unless you got fired for some other reason you aren't telling us.

 

[RogueBanana]

Also I've been doing research for a long time and I've never heard of someone being let go because a program was expanding. If the need for a salaried employee is that great, I'm surprised they wouldn't keep you on since there's always new tasks to get done in a lab that the regulars would prefer to pawn off to the undergrad interns...

 

[type42tardis]

Also I've been doing research for a long time and I've never heard of someone being let go because a program was expanding. If the need for a salaried employee is that great, I'm surprised they wouldn't keep you on since there's always new tasks to get done in a lab that the regulars would prefer to pawn off to the undergrad interns...

OH crap, I forgot to include this (I am still a bit shaky and nervous), but he said that i was not pulling my weight as compared to the other researchers (who are all grad students), and said I did not seem to be motivated to perform the tasks over the past few weeks when I was studying to take my MCAT. I accept that this is my fault and am not trying to make excuses. Also its not lab research, but a data extraction research where we mine data from the VA systems for specific research studies.

But my main question is whether I should still include the research experience without a LOR from the PI to back it up on my application?

 

[RogueBanana]

OH crap, I forgot to include this, but he said that i was not pulling my weight as compared to the other researchers (who are all grad students), and said I did not seem to be motivated to perform the tasks over the past few weeks when I was studying to take my MCAT. I accept that this is my fault and am not trying to make excuses. Also its not lab research, but a data extraction research where we mine data from the VA systems for specific research studies.

But my main question is whether I should still include the research experience without a LOR from the PI to back it up on my application?

Research is important for top 20 schools, but even then it only matters if you have a publication listed with you as an author.

I'd say list it, you don't really need the PI letter. It would have been good to have but you still did the research and there's no reason you shouldn't get some credit for it.

 

[RogueBanana]

I will defer to @gonnif 's superior knowledge of the admissions process however

 

[Shirafune]

OH crap, I forgot to include this (I am still a bit shaky and nervous), but he said that i was not pulling my weight as compared to the other researchers (who are all grad students), and said I did not seem to be motivated to perform the tasks over the past few weeks when I was studying to take my MCAT. I accept that this is my fault and am not trying to make excuses. Also its not lab research, but a data extraction research where we mine data from the VA systems for specific research studies.

But my main question is whether I should still include the research experience without a LOR from the PI to back it up on my application?

Sounds like he doesn't think of you in the most positive way. I would include the experience without the LOR.

 

[type42tardis]

Research is important for top 20 schools, but even then it only matters if you have a publication listed with you as an author.

I'd say list it, you don't really need the PI letter. It would have been good to have but you still did the research and there's no reason you shouldn't get some credit for it.

Will MD programs ask why I don't have a LOR from the PI in interviews? Am I now at a disadvantage compared to other applicants? I am sorry, I am still a little shaken and going in circles. So do you think I should still apply this cycle assuming my mcat score comes back good (510+)

 

[boogiecousins94]

I wouldn't actually want to get a letter from this PI since based on what he told you, that makes it seem like it would be mediocre at best or not good. Did he say he wouldn't write one or are you assuming this? I would rather not have a mediocre/bad PI letter than one at all as it would probably hurt more.

 

[RogueBanana]

Will MD programs ask why I don't have a LOR from the PI in interviews? Am I now at a disadvantage compared to other applicants? I am sorry, I am still a little shaken and going in circles. So do you think I should still apply this cycle assuming my mcat score comes back good (510+)

Meh, they might but they probably won't. Most interviews nowadays are less about grilling the specifics of your app and more about seeing who you are and how you think.

Seeing as a very large chunk of applicants get in without research I think you are fine. Even if you don't list the activity at all you will still probably be fine unless you're trying to go MD/PhD which is research focused.

Undergrads tend to overestimate the importance of research. There is a graph that people like to post around on this forum that shows ADCOM rankings of importance for application factors. Research is quite low.

Volunteer experience, MCAT and GPA are the most important factors along with clinical experience.

A bad LOR will tank your whole app however.

 

[JJRousseau]

OP, are you gunning for a research mission school?


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[type42tardis]

Are you gunning for a research mission school?


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Are you gunning for a research mission school?


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I was planning to apply to:

ALL FL schools
U VM
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush
Rosy Franklin
BU
MCW
Hofstra
NYMC
VCU
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
George Washington
Emory
USC/Keck
Tulane
Loyola
Oakland-B
Western MI

 

[type42tardis]

I was planning to apply to:

ALL FL schools
U VM
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush
Rosy Franklin
BU
MCW
Hofstra
NYMC
VCU
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
George Washington
Emory
USC/Keck
Tulane
Loyola
Oakland-B
Western MI

 

[JJRousseau]

I was planning to apply to:

ALL FL schools
U VM
St. Louis
Albany
Albert Einstein
Rochester
Rush
Rosy Franklin
BU
MCW
Hofstra
NYMC
VCU
EVMS
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Temple
Drexel
Creighton
George Washington
Emory
USC/Keck
Tulane
Loyola
Oakland-B
Western MI

IMHO, with this list you can skip the research letter of recommendation. You already have 5 solid letters, plus you'll have the committee letter. Adcoms should confirm, but I don't think your application at these schools will be viewed any differently with or without a PI letter (but a scathing or unenthusiastic letter would probably hurt you). That said, it's important that you aren't selling yourself as the research star in the rest of your app as that might make them wonder why you didn't get a letter from your PI. Don't wait to apply based on this and don't ask for a letter from the PI. That's my advice for what it's worth.


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[plasticdiscoball]

So you've done 60 hours of research over 3 months? I think you're fine listing it, even without a PI LOR. It's short-term enough that not getting a LOR wouldn't look weird. If they ask why you left, just say something about how it was a valuable experience but you decided you liked service more or something like that.

 

[Lawpy]

So you've done 60 hours of research over 3 months? I think you're fine listing it, even without a PI LOR. It's short-term enough that not getting a LOR wouldn't look weird. If they ask why you left, just say something about how it was a valuable experience but you decided you liked service more or something like that.

If OP did 60 hours of research over 3 months, I could see why his PI didn't feel the need to continue having him as a volunteer. A week of fulltime research work is 40 hours. 60 hours/3 months is essentially negligible.

OP, I would skip the research letter but list the experience anyways.

 

[type42tardis]

If OP did 60 hours of research over 3 months, I could see why his PI didn't feel the need to continue having him as a volunteer. A week of fulltime research work is 40 hours. 60 hours/3 months is essentially negligible.

OP, I would skip the research letter but list the experience anyways.

Thank you for the input. Since I started this thread, I have contacted another physician I shadowed and she has agreed to write me a LOR. So I now have another physician. She is a primary care pediatrician who has known me for years. I appreciate everybody's input!

 

[type42tardis]

IMHO, with this list you can skip the research letter of recommendation. You already have 5 solid letters, plus you'll have the committee letter. Adcoms should confirm, but I don't think your application at these schools will be viewed any differently with or without a PI letter (but a scathing or unenthusiastic letter would probably hurt you). That said, it's important that you aren't selling yourself as the research star in the rest of your app as that might make them wonder why you didn't get a letter from your PI. Don't wait to apply based on this and don't ask for a letter from the PI. That's my advice for what it's worth.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I don't think University of South Florida does committee letters for pre meds anymore. We used too, but apparently the letters were terribly inaccurate. I appreciate the response. I think I follow your advice. The general consensus is to list the experience, but not get the LOR.

 

[RogueBanana]

I am not so sure that this OP was "fired" for cause (ie did something wrong) and freeing up space to hire a full time researcher is by no means unusual. I would say until proven otherwise, this OP was "laid off" (ie position eliminated for reasons other than bad performance). OP should speak directly to PI and refer to his/her removal as being let go. The PI may be clearly supportive or may be hesitant and that will give a better indication of whether or not to get and use a letter.

Additionally, I dont know how much time this OP had in the lab. If it was significant or was his major research piece, again, he/she should consider speaking to PI. But as previous poster replied he/she has 5 excellent letters. I would not consider lacking this letter vital

OP revealed he was studying for the MCAT and the PI mentioned that he was told he was not performing to standard by the PI

 

[type42tardis]

So we have low research with this PI at 60 hours and the MCAT "firing" issue. not worth the effort for the LOR
However another issue here which is the OP is neither fish nor fowl. That is, with all the hours on black belt, there is not alot of research nor is there alot of volunteer or community service.

I would suggest that even though there are 5 letters already, getting a supervisor letter as OP has had same job all through UG and has trained as athlete and has a major, a minor, and a certificate, that its shows extreme hard work, hours spent, responsibility, etc. In other words, few hours in research or volunteering/community service can be seen in context.

My taekwondo instructor is writing one of my LOR, however my boss at my job said he will not write me one due to his busy schedule. I will ask agin, but the answer will probably remain the same.

 

[ndafife]

You only have 60 hours of research. Nobody is going to be suspicious of you not having a LOR from a PI when you have essentially a week and a half of full time work in his/her lab

 

[Goro]

You don't need a PI LOR unless you're aiming for an MD/PhD program, or grad school.

Hello everybody,

Let me start by saying thank for taking to the time to reply to my thread. I am premed student who is planning to apply to medical school this cycle(2017). I currently perform research at the cardiology research department at my local VA hospital. Today, when at research, I was told that my contributions as a volunteer was no longer needed. I was pretty much fired. I was told that it was due to the expanding nature of the research department, and that due to the limited space, a more capable researcher was hired as a full time employee to replace me. I was devastated. I thought I was doing a good job, but I guess my lack of experience in research caused me to be inadequate.

Anyway, the issue I now have is that the PI in charge of the research department is probably not going to write me a letter of recommendation now. Therefore, should I include my research experience on the application to medical school without a letter of recommendation from my PI? Will it look suspicious? Also, I now only have 1 LOR from a doctor. I am so lost right now. Should I even bother applying? I am currently waiting to get my MCAT score back.

My other Letter of recommendations include:

-2 Science professors (freshmen chemistry & Physics 2 professor)
-2 Non-science professor (professional writing & cultural anthropology)
-1 Physician (Head of cardiology at VA hospital)
-1 Character Letter (7+ year Taekwondo instructor

My academic credentials:

• Degrees
  • Major in Biomedical Sciences
  • Minor in Biomedical Physics
  • Certificate in General Business
• GPA
  • Science: 3.86
  • Overall: 3.89
• Volunteering Hrs: 115 hrs
• Shadowing hrs: about 100 hrs
• Extracurriculars:
  • 2nd degree black belt in Taekwondo.
    • I would train for 1.5 hours a day, 6 days a week. Placed 1st place in multiple local tournaments, but nothing national level.
  • Work
    • I have been working 20-25 hrs a week throughout my time in college.
    • I have worked at the same job for the entire duration of my undergraduate studies, and have earned the rank of supervisor
  • Research
    • I have been working in the Cardiology research department at the VA hospital near the university campus. This is the same hospital where I have 115 volunteer hours.
    • I was only able to start performing research this semester due too the unexpected time it took for my application to be processed.
    • About 60 hrs of research
  • Risk Manager for Taekwondo club - 3 semesters
    • Two of my close friends and I started a taekwondo club at my university. The goal was to create an environment where people could come and train so that they may stay sharp. We also wanted to provide a place where people who wanted to try taekwondo for the first time could get their toes wet.
    • As the Risk manager Duties include:
      • Check all equipment, to ensure that it is safe to use.
      • Provide CPR/First aid when necessary.
      • Inform all club members of proper safety and emergency procedures

 

[Neglektor]

You don't need a PI LOR unless you're aiming for an MD/PhD program, or grad school.

I have done two years of research with my PI but will not have his letter. Are they necessary for T20 tier schools?

 

[Goro]

I have done two years of research with my PI but will not have his letter. Are they necessary for T20 tier schools?

I've seen posts from SDNers who have gotten into T20s who stated that they didn't need PI LORs. Look, even newly minted post-docs don't have to submit PI letters for grants...NIH assumes that people can and will have bad relationships with their PIs (or perhaps, they know that PIs are flaky when it comes to LOR writing?)