Looking at the MATCH backwards?? (ortho)

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I think I understand it from the student side. But I am trying to understand why schools are so worried about where they think you want to go? I have heard that several places (ortho) asked my friends what their top choices were. Some even asked were they would rank their program. Why do the schools care so much about this? It seems that if they just listed who they wanted first it wouldnt really matter. But is there a way for them to "play the match"???

 

[Sommy]

Hi,
I am not applying to ortho, but am in the match for pedo. I DO think they are trying to play the match, and was essentually told so. Something about them missing they second choices if all their first choices choose somewhere else. Then they have to have their third choices. Very confusing and stressful.

 

[vorosvirag]

I think I understand it from the student side. But I am trying to understand why schools are so worried about where they think you want to go? I have heard that several places (ortho) asked my friends what their top choices were. Some even asked were they would rank their program. Why do the schools care so much about this? It seems that if they just listed who they wanted first it wouldnt really matter. But is there a way for them to "play the match"???

Which schools were those that asked your friends what their top choices were? I've heard that Iowa and Harvard do this.

I know why schools care. They want to be ranked high--just like the students. Yet, the conditions of the Match forbid (unless I missed something) open I'll-rank-you-if-you-rank-me or tell-me-your-rank-list type of discussion. These schools clearly don't care and continue to defy the Match guidelines.

There is no way to "play the Match." The Match process is what it is. If you're ranked high by at least one school, that's where you'll go. If you're ranked high by all schools on your list, you'll go to your 1st choice. It is that simple.

They can't manipulate the Match by asking you your rank. I'm guessing their goal w/ such "illegal" questions is to feel you out. But in the process they dump enormous pressure on you. I call it bad behavior and disregard for the "rules."

 

[Jediwendell]

I think I understand it from the student side. But I am trying to understand why schools are so worried about where they think you want to go? I have heard that several places (ortho) asked my friends what their top choices were. Some even asked were they would rank their program. Why do the schools care so much about this? It seems that if they just listed who they wanted first it wouldnt really matter. But is there a way for them to "play the match"???

Okay, here is the deal. If you apply to a residency, you are doing it as a singular individual with really no other concerns about anything except which residency do you like. Sure, you want your co-matchees to be competent, cool, and reliable, but figuring out who you might match with probably isn't the first reason you choose a program (maybe it SHOULD be, I don't know).

From a program's perspective, they want to put together the best class that they can. They want to get a variety of people from different backgrounds to add in things that might not be available otherwise. For instance, in my class we have an ex-oral surgery resident, a prosthodontist, a foreign trained orthodontist, and a guy out of undergrad with a lot of research experience. That makes for a pretty well rounded class because we all have our own little bit of expertise to add in. With match, you can't really plan a class this way. If the program director decided that they wanted to have a class as above in a non-match situation and the guy with prostho experience turned them down, they could just look for another person with a similar background. If you are ranked low on a program's list, it may not mean that they think you are incompetent (necessarily), but that you won't fit in with the others that they want first. There is also the factor that many program directors do not understand how match works. They just don't get it that if you rank them the way you want them, you actually have a better chance of getting the people you want. I sort of equate it to putting. If you leave it short you will never make your putts.

Some places have recently pulled out of the match because they weren't getting the people they wanted (UCLA). The interesting thing is that they have apparently been turned down by some of their top choices for whatever reason. It will be interesting to see if more programs go this way. I hope they do not, however, as it is bad for the average applicant. Okay, diatribe done now😴

 

[gryffindor]

Some places have recently pulled out of the match because they weren't getting the people they wanted (UCLA). The interesting thing is that they have apparently been turned down by some of their top choices for whatever reason. It will be interesting to see if more programs go this way. I hope they do not, however, as it is bad for the average applicant. Okay, diatribe done now😴

Yes, but now UCLA gets the people they want, but those people don't get a chance to go to the programs they may have really wanted over UCLA. Example - Candidate A really wants to go to an east coast school to be closer to his family, fiance, etc. But UCLA interviews him and accepts him out of the match. He can take the guaranteed acceptance and know he's in although he'll be away from his family, or turn it down and play the match and hope one of the east coast schools match him. Match no longer favors the applicant since he is being pressured by UCLA to take the spot outside of the Match.

I think some programs like to brag "Oh, we matched all our top choices, #1 - 4." The most likely way to do this is if their top choice applicants also rank that program at the top of the applicant's list. They might be fishing for this info when they ask "Where will you rank us?"

Match sucks, but I guess it's still better than the alternative of no match system-free for all.

 

[scalpel2008]

schools are worried because the match process is biased in favor of the applicant. If a program knows that they are not ranked high on an applicant's list, they will not rank that applicant high on thir list because they don't want to end up with unmatched spots (Programs don't rank everyone they interview). That being said, who in their right mind will, when asked, tell a program "yeah, i think you guys suck and i'm ranking you last." Also, programs aren't allowed to ask about ranks, and, even though they often do, they aren't allowed to ask about where else an applicant is interviewing (although i got that question quite a bit on my OMS interview circuit years ago). Additionally, I don't think it's a good idea to have some programs participate in match and some not.

 

[capisce?]

even though they often do, they aren't allowed to ask about where else an applicant is interviewing (although i got that question quite a bit on my OMS interview circuit years ago).

I too was asked that...on all 8 of my interviews. Even in different interviews at the same program. I wanted to tell them to go ask the other person who inquired, but you know how that would have looked.

Specialty programs are a small world. It makes me wonder what type of backdoor discussion goes on regarding applicants. You know it definitely does.

 

[vorosvirag]

I too was asked that...on all 8 of my interviews. Even in different interviews at the same program. I wanted to tell them to go ask the other person who inquired, but you know how that would have looked.

Specialty programs are a small world. It makes me wonder what type of backdoor discussion goes on regarding applicants. You know it definitely does.

Yep. Sad but true. I got that question every single place I went. I always told them the truth, but wondered why it mattered. I don't think anyone asked me how I'd rank the schools. Perhaps they ask the question (where else are you going) to see how "viable" you are. That is, if you're interviewing at 9 schools they may consider you a more sought-after applicant. That is ridiculous, though!

If they like you they should take you. There is no need to call other directors (which they likely do). In fact, a faculty person earlier this year said just as much on SDN. I forget how he justified his calls, but said something like "in borderline cases." I'd argue w/ ortho every decision w/ the caliber of candidates is a borderline one. Everyone is exceptionally qualified. Don't they trust their own judgment? I guess they love to get in on the juicy gossip other people may share about some of the applicants. I can't think of other reasons why they don't simplify things.

One of my best buds was an applicant for two cycles. He didn't get interviewed by his home school two years in a row. He had stellar credentials, but didn't match the first time around despite 8 or 9 interviews. His home school certainly didn't help him. Don't know exactly what happened, but I'm left thinking a little bologna went on behind the scenes. It's a screwy process to say the least.

 

[capisce?]

Yep. Sad but true. I got that question every single place I went. I always told them the truth, but wondered why it mattered. I don't think anyone asked me how I'd rank the schools. Perhaps they ask the question (where else are you going) to see how "viable" you are. That is, if you're interviewing at 9 schools they may consider you a more sought-after applicant. That is ridiculous, though!

If they like you they should take you. There is no need to call other directors (which they likely do). In fact, a faculty person earlier this year said just as much on SDN. I forget how he justified his calls, but said something like "in borderline cases." I'd argue w/ ortho every decision w/ the caliber of candidates is a borderline one. Everyone is exceptionally qualified. Don't they trust their own judgment? I guess they love to get in on the juicy gossip other people may share about some of the applicants. I can't think of other reasons why they don't simplify things.

One of my best buds was an applicant for two cycles. He didn't get interviewed by his home school two years in a row. He had stellar credentials, but didn't match the first time around despite 8 or 9 interviews. His home school certainly didn't help him. Don't know exactly what happened, but I'm left thinking a little bologna went on behind the scenes. It's a screwy process to say the least.

I don't see anything wrong with calling the program director at an applicant's school to ask about them. An interviewer gets to see you for a few hours and anyone can be on their best behavior. A school's dept will get to know the students much better to see if they are a good fit. If you are afraid of what your program would say about you then there is something wrong then.

As far as why they ask, one reason is to see if you are applying to similar programs. Many times they asked what I was looking for in a program, and followed it up with asking where I applied. That way, they can see if the things I told them I wanted is actually true or if I was just saying it because I want to match what their program is about.

 

[vorosvirag]

If you are afraid of what your program would say about you then there is something wrong then.

That's my point. Something is wrong. I don't think what's entirely wrong is my friend. I think his home school (committee and director) bear some of what's wrong in the situation. Have all your directors behaved perfectly fairly in every instance? Of course not. They're human. They like some people more than others.

I give him some benefit of the doubt. But, some on the interview trail (since they didn't know him well) may not have. That's what's tough about it. He got "black-listed" and didn't escape the associated stigma until he re-applied a 2nd time. I see applicants every year who interview w/o home-school interviews and I feel bad for them.

My friend may not have matched for other reasons, but if calls were made in his case they likely would not have helped. All I'm saying is that life isn't fair if you disturb (or are not the favorites of) the "wrong" people w/ power. If you knew this fellow you wouldn't be quick to say, "Well, he must have been a tool or couldn't get along well w/ others. Hence, the "no" from his home school."

As far as why they ask, one reason is to see if you are applying to similar programs.

I didn't ever really have a problem telling them where else I was interviewing. It's the rank-related question that I think are inappropriate. They know the rules. To ask rank ?s would have made me think less of the program for putting me in such a pressure cooker.

 

[Jediwendell]

Yes, but now UCLA gets the people they want,

That's not what I've been hearing......

 

[ItsGavinC]

That's not what I've been hearing......

I agree. They aren't getting people who submit rank lists and rank their program towards the top of their list, rather they are getting applicants who are most likely too scared to say no and end up high and dry after the match.

 

[gryffindor]

I agree. They aren't getting people who submit rank lists and rank their program towards the top of their list, rather they are getting applicants who are most likely too scared to say no and end up high and dry after the match.

However, that's not how I'm seeing it. UCLA calls their top 4 people. If their top 4 turn them down pre-match, then yes, they aren't getting their favorites. But if the top 4 turn them down, then I would think those top 4 are some pretty darn confident people playing the match or have an unofficial "in" somewhere else and therefore feel conifdent enough to turn down a guaranteed acceptance to UCLA. If the candidates do it your way Gavin and UCLA was still part of the match, then I could put UCLA #1 on my list, but I could be UCLA's absolute last choice (or they might not even want me at all). UCLA might still end up with me because all of the candidates they wanted ahead of me matched at other places - so match favors me, not UCLA. By UCLA pulling out of the match, it technically favors the program, not the candidates.

But if you have gossip Jedi... do tell....

 

[Jediwendell]

However, that's not how I'm seeing it. UCLA calls their top 4 people. If their top 4 turn them down pre-match, then yes, they aren't getting their favorites. But if the top 4 turn them down, then I would think those top 4 are some pretty darn confident people playing the match or have an unofficial "in" somewhere else and therefore feel conifdent enough to turn down a guaranteed acceptance to UCLA. If the candidates do it your way Gavin and UCLA was still part of the match, then I could put UCLA #1 on my list, but I could be UCLA's absolute last choice (or they might not even want me at all). UCLA might still end up with me because all of the candidates they wanted ahead of me matched at other places - so match favors me, not UCLA. By UCLA pulling out of the match, it technically favors the program, not the candidates.

But if you have gossip Jedi... do tell....

I've just heard that people are telling them no, that is all.

 

[kato999]

After to talking to quite a few applicants on the trail, many didn't even apply to UCLA (or other non-match schools) because they did not want to deal with the decision of dropping out of Match to go to a school that might not have been their top choice.

 

[gryffindor]

After to talking to quite a few applicants on the trail, many didn't even apply to UCLA (or other non-match schools) because they did not want to deal with the decision of dropping out of Match to go to a school that might not have been their top choice.

Last year, I hoped I could get an acceptance from any of the very few non-match programs so I wouldn't have to enter match. I guess these guys have a lot of faith in match, good luck to them.

 

[Jediwendell]

That whole non-match program thing is weird. I interviewed at Rochester and really didn't like it that much. It was good, don't get me wrong, but I got some bad vibes. That being said, if Subtelney would have offered me the spot, I would have said yes right in the interview because it is pretty hard to get into ortho. UCLA is a good program and it is pretty gutsy to say no to a guaranteed spot. Everybody knew that they dropped match, though, so nobody has any reason to gripe.

 

[jmp2006]

I just got accepted to a non-match ortho school and am thrilled that the stress is over. That being said, it was not my top choice and I definitely wish that I had a chance at a couple of other schools on my list. Non-match definitely favors the program, they only gave me 48 hours to decide. How do you turn down a definite ortho spot?

 

[dc-10]

I interviewed at Rochester and really didn't like it that much. It was good, don't get me wrong, but I got some bad vibes. That being said, if Subtelney would have offered me the spot, I would have said yes right in the interview because it is pretty hard to get into ortho.

You didn't like the program at Rochester that much or you didn't like the non-match part?
I think it would be way less stressful not to have to worry about the match. If I was offered a spot at a two-year program that pays a decent stipend (I think something like 25k), I would be all over that...even if I got a bad vibe.

 

[i love teeth]

do you think it is appropriate to ask a school why they don't particpate in match? i am interviewing for pedo at a non match school but also have other interviews at match schools.

 

[ItsGavinC]

do you think it is appropriate to ask a school why they don't particpate in match? i am interviewing for pedo at a non match school but also have other interviews at match schools.

Is it Oregon or Tufts or somewhere else?

I think it is acceptable to ask them.