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Another thread was posted on nycom now I am asking about Nova
Check out the threads for NSU.THe lowdown on the school, professors, students cost of living partying
THe lowdown on the school, professors, students cost of living partying
THe lowdown on the school, professors, students cost of living partying
Half of their clinical departments are chaired by MDs
Take that any way you like
I swear on my mother's life that I'm not trying to incite anything here, but how should one take that (above)? A couple thoughts come to mind, but my guess is that it ultimately means nothing.
I swear on my mother's life that I'm not trying to incite anything here, but how should one take that (above)? A couple thoughts come to mind, but my guess is that it ultimately means nothing.
Agreed. I don't think it should mean much of anything.
....or ppl become surgeons
Actually one of the dept heads at NSUCOM's OMM department is one of the editors for the Journal of the AOA and is HUGELY into the UAAO and OMT/OPP whatever you want to call it. Their OMM department is probably just as strong as any other schools, and with their OMM fellowship they have there, very young, enthusiastic, and willing to teach those that are into it.So you have MDs heading clinical departments at an osteopathic school. I wonder waht sort of OPP & OMT integration there is in the courses. My guess would be not a whole lot.
And we wonder why so many DOs dont use OMT.
Maybe its because there are DO schools out there where the professors dont use it.
Seems important to me.
But I guess if you have no interest in OMM (and yet, youre at a DO school) I guess it wouldnt matter.
in addition to that, if u match into their core rotation at Florida Hospital East orlando, you'll get to work with Dr. Crow -- who is a big name in teaching ligamentous articular strain, BMT or watever else you want to call it. Real world OMT in hospitalized patients.
but plz continue to hate on us
I know Dr Crow well. He is an asset, no doubt.
I would like to hear how the surgical department covers OMM in their course and how much OMM your surgery department chair does on his patients.
Yes, I heard your excellent talk at the SOSA conference, but how many DO surgeons actually do OMM anyway...
Not enough, thats my point.
And its not about winning. Unfortunately the large majority of DO surgeons, or DOs for that matter, do not use OMM. The places where OMT has been shown beneficial are numerous, yet the excuses for NOT going OMT remain more numerous.
The AOA continues to bombard us with initiatives and ideas on improving osteopathic medicine, starting with increasing public awareness.
Well, how about doing so through providing our patients with a beneficial treatment modality that can be used along with our current medical knowledge?
Its time for the "Separate but equal" bull$hit to stop and time to leave behind the "DOs offer something else" line unless we can justify it.
OMM has turned into a cultist art. 50 years ago ALL DOs were cultists and not fit for medical practice and now the ones who use OMT are classified as such.
The majority of DOs are so worried about what their allopathic colleagues would think if they starting using OMT that they dismiss it altogether.
So we went from a proud profession working hard to secure our rights as physicians to a group willing to turn on eachother at the first hint of disbelief or skepticism from the MD community. Pathetic and embarassing.
It bothers me when I hear speakers say things like "you should be proud to be a DO" and "we offer something that our MD counterparts dont" and "remember, youre a DO so think like a DO"...yet none of them could find, diagnose or treat a somatic dysfunction to save their lives.
I prefer not to be one of the wannabes.
A DO who turns their back on what it means to be a DO is nothing but a second rate allopath...just some guy or girl who bombed the MCAT and kissed the wrong ass in college.
Now I will sit back and wait for the inevitable "DOs are just like MDs" crap that people love to regurgitate.
Let me get off my soapbox for a moment and get my wading boots.
Not enough, thats my point.
And its not about winning. Unfortunately the large majority of DO surgeons, or DOs for that matter, do not use OMM. The places where OMT has been shown beneficial are numerous, yet the excuses for NOT going OMT remain more numerous.
The AOA continues to bombard us with initiatives and ideas on improving osteopathic medicine, starting with increasing public awareness.
Well, how about doing so through providing our patients with a beneficial treatment modality that can be used along with our current medical knowledge?
Its time for the "Separate but equal" bull$hit to stop and time to leave behind the "DOs offer something else" line unless we can justify it.
OMM has turned into a cultist art. 50 years ago ALL DOs were cultists and not fit for medical practice and now the ones who use OMT are classified as such.
The majority of DOs are so worried about what their allopathic colleagues would think if they starting using OMT that they dismiss it altogether.
So we went from a proud profession working hard to secure our rights as physicians to a group willing to turn on eachother at the first hint of disbelief or skepticism from the MD community. Pathetic and embarassing.
It bothers me when I hear speakers say things like "you should be proud to be a DO" and "we offer something that our MD counterparts dont" and "remember, youre a DO so think like a DO"...yet none of them could find, diagnose or treat a somatic dysfunction to save their lives.
I prefer not to be one of the wannabes.
A DO who turns their back on what it means to be a DO is nothing but a second rate allopath...just some guy or girl who bombed the MCAT and kissed the wrong ass in college.
Now I will sit back and wait for the inevitable "DOs are just like MDs" crap that people love to regurgitate.
Let me get off my soapbox for a moment and get my wading boots.
For what it's worth, I think JP makes several good points here but disagree that a DO without OMM is a second-rate MD, etc. Our exposure to things and experiences are what shape us. If you learned OMM and weren't grabbed enough by it to become a zealot then so be it. It could be denial because I think some of that stuff is pretty hokey.
Fortunately or unfortunately, I think a lot of people's opinions are formed during the first two years of medical school. Some of us aren't taught a real great understanding of what to use and when aside from HVLA, ME, counterstrain, and soft tissue techniques. We spend our third and fourth years cracking the backs of friends and family only and then go on to ACGME residencies. Are all of us wannabes? Will we graduate to be any less of a doctor? Certainly not.
At the end of the day, I don't think OMM is what makes or breaks a DO nor is it the be-all, end-all of the profession. My $0.02
JP,
Although my pre-med(am I one anymore?)
Not enough, thats my point.
And its not about winning. Unfortunately the large majority of DO surgeons, or DOs for that matter, do not use OMM. The places where OMT has been shown beneficial are numerous, yet the excuses for NOT going OMT remain more numerous.
The AOA continues to bombard us with initiatives and ideas on improving osteopathic medicine, starting with increasing public awareness.
Well, how about doing so through providing our patients with a beneficial treatment modality that can be used along with our current medical knowledge?
Its time for the "Separate but equal" bull$hit to stop and time to leave behind the "DOs offer something else" line unless we can justify it.
OMM has turned into a cultist art. 50 years ago ALL DOs were cultists and not fit for medical practice and now the ones who use OMT are classified as such.
The majority of DOs are so worried about what their allopathic colleagues would think if they starting using OMT that they dismiss it altogether.
So we went from a proud profession working hard to secure our rights as physicians to a group willing to turn on eachother at the first hint of disbelief or skepticism from the MD community. Pathetic and embarassing.
It bothers me when I hear speakers say things like "you should be proud to be a DO" and "we offer something that our MD counterparts dont" and "remember, youre a DO so think like a DO"...yet none of them could find, diagnose or treat a somatic dysfunction to save their lives.
I prefer not to be one of the wannabes.
A DO who turns their back on what it means to be a DO is nothing but a second rate allopath...just some guy or girl who bombed the MCAT and kissed the wrong ass in college.
Now I will sit back and wait for the inevitable "DOs are just like MDs" crap that people love to regurgitate.
Let me get off my soapbox for a moment and get my wading boots.
I do think you're making some good points, but I don't completely agree with you. And I wanted to say that I do admire that you plan on using OMM in the surgical field. But I don't think being a DO is an all-or-none thing depending on whether a person follows certain tenents of osteopathy. If you really want to argue that... you too can be classified as one of those "second-rate allopaths...some guy who bombed the MCAT and missed the wrong ass in college" because you're going into general surgery (unless i'm mistaken). Whatever happened to primary care??? Of course OMM is a huge component of our profession, but you seem to be ignoring other aspects of the osteopathic philosophy in your judgement of others.
I do think you're making some good points, but I don't completely agree with you. And I wanted to say that I do admire that you plan on using OMM in the surgical field. But I don't think being a DO is an all-or-none thing depending on whether a person follows certain tenents of osteopathy. If you really want to argue that... you too can be classified as one of those "second-rate allopaths...some guy who bombed the MCAT and missed the wrong ass in college" because you're going into general surgery (unless i'm mistaken). Whatever happened to primary care??? Of course OMM is a huge component of our profession, but you seem to be ignoring other aspects of the osteopathic philosophy in your judgement of others.
Aside from OMM, I cannot think of any honest examples of a DO distinction. An emphasis on primary care does not mean anything else strictly osteopathic is going on, versus allopathic primary care. A lot of vague things are ususally offered, that could apply to almost any discipline. It would seem that someone would be able to jot down what these supposed concrete distinctions are, aside from OMM, (which seems to be the only actual difference) if they exist, and they insist that they indeed do. I personally am content with OMM being the only palpable difference, but would be happy to add more.
First time I have ever agreed with you rufus. Well said.
Here are the "Tenets of Osteopathy"
1. The body is a unit
2. Relationship of structure & function
3. Body possesses self-regulating & self-healing mechanisms
4. Rational therapy is based on intricate knowledge of the above 3 (losely translated tenet)
$hit. Seems like common sense to me.
#1. Body is a unit. Of course. Interwoven nerves, arteries, veins and organs that function together.
#2. Structure & function. A birds wing was built to fly. Common sense. A leg muscle was built for locomotion. Wheres the big secret here?
#3. Immune system, ability to heal a wound, scar tissue. Nothing there is magic. Its physiology.
#4. Of course you need to understand the human body in order to fix it and facilitate its healing.
NO WHERE in the tenets is OMT mentioned.
In fact, the tenets sound more like common sense rules put to paper and someone had the balls to say "these belong to DOs". I dont think so.
DO minus OMT = MD
MD plus OMT = DO
MD plus 4 tenets = MD
DO minus 4 tenets = DO
No where in the "tenets of osteopathy" is primary care listed. And chosing a specialty field over primary care isnt unique to DOs. No osteopathic philosophy tells me that I should be a family doc. So how I am going against osteopathy? Your argument is flawed.
A "trend" towards primary care doesnt make it a backbone of the profession.
What I am trying to get someone to explain to me is how is a DO different from an MD if that DO doesnt use OMM?
So what of the "osteopathic philosophy" makes you unique Faraaz? And could someone please explain to me what the hell the "osteopathic philosphy" is.
First time I have ever agreed with you rufus. Well said.
Here are the "Tenets of Osteopathy"
1. The body is a unit
2. Relationship of structure & function
3. Body possesses self-regulating & self-healing mechanisms
4. Rational therapy is based on intricate knowledge of the above 3 (losely translated tenet)
$hit. Seems like common sense to me.
#1. Body is a unit. Of course. Interwoven nerves, arteries, veins and organs that function together.
#2. Structure & function. A birds wing was built to fly. Common sense. A leg muscle was built for locomotion. Wheres the big secret here?
#3. Immune system, ability to heal a wound, scar tissue. Nothing there is magic. Its physiology.
#4. Of course you need to understand the human body in order to fix it and facilitate its healing.
NO WHERE in the tenets is OMT mentioned.
In fact, the tenets sound more like common sense rules put to paper and someone had the balls to say "these belong to DOs". I dont think so.
DO minus OMT = MD
MD plus OMT = DO
MD plus 4 tenets = MD
DO minus 4 tenets = DO
I do give something different.
You are an expletive, my friend.
And how are you taking shots at NSU for not teaching students properly when you, as a graduating DO, are asking for someone to explain what the hell the "osteopathic philosophy" is?
I would love to hear what that is.
Because I tell the truth?
A) My bedside manner, the way I interact with my patients, and my personal practice philosophy.
And I do not believe you tell the truth, that a DO who doesn't practice OMT isn't a DO. There is much more to OPP that HVLA, soft tissue techniques, craniosacral, or whatever technique you prefer. It is a philosophy, remember that. Don't you remember the AOA's campaign, about "treating patients, not symptoms?" It was a push that the AOA supported, to strengthen the DO philosophy. Since those times, I have strived to do that myself. This was when I was a wee MS1, so perhaps you were still only a pre med or a high schooler, at the time, so you may not remember.
Q
A) My bedside manner, the way I interact with my patients, and my personal practice philosophy.
And I do not believe you tell the truth, that a DO who doesn't practice OMT isn't a DO. There is much more to OPP that HVLA, soft tissue techniques, craniosacral, or whatever technique you prefer. It is a philosophy, remember that. Don't you remember the AOA's campaign, about "treating patients, not symptoms?" It was a push that the AOA supported, to strengthen the DO philosophy. Since those times, I have strived to do that myself. This was when I was a wee MS1, so perhaps you were still only a pre med or a high schooler, at the time, so you may not remember.
Q
Bedside manner? Is that even a legit answer? There are as many DOs as there are MDs with bedside manner as there are those without bedside manner. MDs get the blame for having none because the public is more familiar with them and there are more of them.
DO is nothing more than MD+OMM. Let it rest now. MDs also look at the whole body system and see how integrative the mechanisms and physiologies really are. No longer are MDs simply focusing on the disease at hand -- they check everything and see how one affects the other, etc. I don't see how this so-called osteopathic philosophy is markedly different from what is now the philosophy of medicine.
I'm amazed that people continue to NOT get the point of the osteopathic philosophy. It is not in any way intended to be "unique." It is simply the philosophy by which osteopathic medicine was created and exists. It makes no difference if other people believe the same principles or even if the principals are simply common sense because it is just spelling out the philosophy we agree to uphold in the osteopathic pledge.
Lots of organizations have a "philosophy." The Boy Scouts have one, most religions have one. It makes no difference that both the Catholics and Boy Scouts pledge to be reverent. Neither side claims a sole, unique hold on being reverent. They simply have spelled out (in writing) some of the principals they they hold dear and have pledged to live by.
It just doesn't make a difference whether MD's believe the same way because they haven't put the commitment down on paper to follow those principlals. That's what is is-- a commitment. That's all it is. It's not trying to be different or unique or the only people who can claim that the body is a unit. Yes, many DO's like to point out the philosophy, but it's not that they really are any different. They know that. They are highlighting the principals they agreed to live by. Sure, some of them might get a little "high and mighty" now and then, but what organization doesn't have it's radicals? What specialty doesn't think they are better than all the rest? What group of alumni doesn't think they went to the best school? If you want to turn it into something else...go ahead.
I love it when a pre-med tries to educate an actual physician. Fuc*ing priceless.
Get off your high horse, and stop alienating your fellow DOs.
I am a DO. Proud of it.
But I don't use OMT on patients.
I do give something different. Ask all my patients. Ask why the nurses in my ED ask for ME to see their family and friends. Ask my fellow MDs and DOs who say that they would trust me with their loved ones. Just because I do not use manipulation in my active practice, doesn't mean I don't embrace the DO philosophy, and my patients, nurses, and colleagues can see that, and they like that.
You are an expletive, my friend.
Q
No. I've met and currently work with many M.D.s who have excellent bedside manners and are very compassionate. I have worked with many D.O.s I won't trust leaving a one-dollar bill with. This idea you have, that D.O.s are more caring or taught to be more caring, is false in my opinion. I've been around a lot of doctors and "caring" isn't governed by the badge one wears. It's the kind of person he is that determines that.
But I feel, that through my osteopathic education, that it did shape where I am today.
OK, now my response to that would be
"Is this a reflection of the particular school you went to, the professors you had and the clinical mentors you had.?"
OR
"Is this because you went to a DO school?"
I also agree that from what I've seen so far, OPP are great physician qualities, but I wouldn't say they are unique to DOs (or at least I hope not)! I have not found OMM/OPP encorporated into any class outside of the 3 hours per week of OMM. How am I to draw an OPP connection to phys, cell, or micro when my unique DO education never mentions it? Granted I am a bright person and could find valid connections, but how can my DO education be called unique when its never mentioned or in the curriculum? OMM also carries a very strange aura with its methods of instruction. Many of the brightest students in my class have mentioned this and we find discern with the "just trust us, it works" philosophy. Their stories of miracles are inspiring and paint a picture of OMMs possibilities, but like JP mentions: that is OMM, not some unique philisophy or tenet. So how are we different outside of manipulations and the extra hands on training (which I do enjoy)? I do believe medicine still contains an art form even to this day, but I want some proof as a student drudging through core sciences for this and the next year to the reason for an Osteopathic identity.
So, I suppose I reach out to you Dr Q, whose posts I have always enjoyed (especially being an EMT-P, now OMS-1 with of course emergency medicine interest), and to you JP...how do I describe to uninformed people and friends what I am going through and why the DO side of medicine is even needed? How do I show them I am proud of what I am going through, that I am over the bruised ego of a mediocre MCAT score, and also demostrate to them the valid need for the Osteopathic branch of medicine being its own entity? What do you two, or anyone else involved for that matter, take away from the uniqueness that DOs offer OUTSIDE of OMM?