Mandatory Flu Shot- Is it legal?

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BLADEMDA

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I've been at this a long time. I respect someone's decision regarding their own health. The hospital has adopted the policy of Mandatory Flu shorts for everyone. Refusal to take the shot can mean loss of privileges. Is this legal? A radiologist developed guillain barre syndrome after getting the flu shot. He is now on disability while he recovers (if he ever recovers). This was a 35 year old healthy guy with no medical problems.

There can be risks to getting the flu shot for the next 35 years. The efficacy is questionable as well. Do you agree with the policy of my hospital?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/severe-flu-cases-on-the-rise-in-the-u-s-1419986428

This Year’s Vaccine May Not Fully Protect

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Beginning with the 2012 -2013 flu season, Johns Hopkins Medicine mandated influenza vaccination. Making the flu vaccine mandatory is a step that has also been taken by many of the health care systems in Maryland and in many hospitals throughout the nation. In Maryland alone, 36 hospitals have already adopted a mandatory influenza vaccination policy, with four more planning to implement this season.

Who adopted the mandatory flu vaccination policy?

All Johns Hopkins Medicine entities have adopted a mandatory vaccination policy.
 
WORKPLACE VACCINE INJURIES AND DEATHS: WHO PAYS? All vaccines carry a risk of injury or death. Look at the results of just one of over 120 U.S. law firms that handle vaccine injury and death cases: Maglio, Christopher and Toale--flu shots are deadly.

If a hospital employee is injured by a flu vaccine, who is liable? Is this a workman's compensation matter? Flu vaccine injury and death is solely a matter for theNational Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, and not workman's compensation, as the federal program supersedes any state worker's comp laws.DO FLU SHOTS WORK? See the article linked at the top of this page, and alsoThe Truth About the Flu Shot by Dr. Sheri Tennpenny citing studies that document flu vaccine failure. Some studies show that flu shots increase your chance of getting the flu or a flu-like illness. Finally, Dr. Hugh Fudenberg, MD, a world leading immunogeneticist, found that 5 consecutive annual flu shots increased Alzheimer's rates by a factor of 10 compared to 2, 1, or no shots.

WILL FORCED EMPLOYEE FLU SHOTS AFFECT EMPLOYEE MORALE? As many as 1/2 of healthcare workers say they don't want flu vaccines. Therefore, vaccine mandates could have a significant impact on employee morale, a particularly bad thing in any patient-care setting! Here are just a few of the many 2009 articles showing opposition to swine flu vaccines from healthcare professionals:
 
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As we reported earlier, a Michigan nurse has filed a $100 million class action lawsuit against the hospital that fired her for refusing a flu vaccine as a requirement for employment.

So we did some research and we found out that there are lawsuits around the country currently in litigation from healthcare workers who have lost their jobs as a result of refusing the seasonal flu vaccine. Here are some that are being reported:

Woman sues over hospital flu shot
- See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/la...-to-mandatory-flu-shots/#sthash.RIdqQG6w.dpuf
 
Of course vaccines increase the risk of immunologically-mediated diseases. Anybody who believes otherwise can burn his/her medical diploma.

It's just a question of risks vs. benefits. From where I stand, the risks of getting influenza are far smaller than the possible complications of this vaccine. I am not against vaccines per se.
 
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So now that the avalanche of lawsuits has begun against health care facilities for terminating employment based on flu vaccine status, or requiring people to wear a mask the entire flu season, the financial question they will need to consider is whether the potential 1% to 2% loss in Medicare and Medicaid reimbursement is enough to cover all their legal fees in trying to mandate the flu vaccine against the desire of their employees, and the ensuing litigation that could result from terminating employment or forcing them to wear masks.

Of course, President Obama has rewritten so many aspects of the Affordable Health Care Act, that maybe he could just step in and strike out the clause that penalizes health care facilities for not having 90% of their employees vaccinated for the flu. Or is the pharmaceutical lobby too powerful to allow that to happen?

- See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/la...-to-mandatory-flu-shots/#sthash.RIdqQG6w.dpuf
 
Of course vaccines increase the risk of immunologically-mediated diseases. Any ***** who believes otherwise can burn her medical diploma.

It's just a question of risks vs. benefits. From where I stand, the risks of getting influenza are far smaller than the possible complications of this vaccine.


I'm being forced to get a flu shot for the 3rd consecutive year. The hospital is MANDATING the shot even though I didn't want it. I complied like an idiot but I don't want another flu shot next year so I'm hoping the legal system does its job.
 
Holy crap! Wow! This idiocy is part of the ACA:
As we have previously reported, the recent move by hospitals to become so strict over requiring their employees (whether they have contact with patients or not) to receive the flu vaccine, is due to a provision in the new Affordable Health Care Act (Obamacare) that states health care facilities must have 90% of their employees vaccinated for the flu, or lose federal reimbursement for Medicare and Medicaid. That amount was 1% in 2013 and is reportedly going to increase up to 2% by 2017.

So now that the avalanche of lawsuits has begun against health care facilities for terminating employment based on flu vaccine status, or requiring people to wear a mask the entire flu season, the financial question they will need to consider is whether the potential 1% to 2% loss in Medicare and Medicaid reimbursement is enough to cover all their legal fees in trying to mandate the flu vaccine against the desire of their employees, and the ensuing litigation that could result from terminating employment or forcing them to wear masks.

Of course, President Obama has rewritten so many aspects of the Affordable Health Care Act, that maybe he could just step in and strike out the clause that penalizes health care facilities for not having 90% of their employees vaccinated for the flu. Or is the pharmaceutical lobby too powerful to allow that to happen?
http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/la...-to-mandatory-flu-shots/#sthash.RIdqQG6w.dpuf

I can't believe I am saying this: this is why physicians need unions.
 
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Around here you can refuse- if you're willing to wear a mask at all times during patient care.
 
I'm being forced to get a flu shot for the 3rd consecutive year. The hospital is MANDATING the shot even though I didn't want it. I complied like an idiot but I don't want another flu shot next year so I'm hoping the legal system does its job.
I haven't had a flu shot for at least 2 years. Can't remember the last time I had anything resembling a flu. Oh, yeah, when I had my shot 3 years ago.
 
Around here you can refuse- if you're willing to wear a mask at all times during patient care.

The sleep of reason produces monsters:

640px-Museo_del_Prado_-_Goya_-_Caprichos_-_No._43_-_El_sue%C3%B1o_de_la_razon_produce_monstruos.jpg
 
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Flu season is just around the corner, and preventing outbreaks in the healthcare setting is of utmost importance to hospitals. Some have even gone as far as creating policies to make flu shots mandatory for all employees, even healthcare execs.

But is this the best bet for flu prevention – or legal trouble waiting to happen?

Many hospitals throughout the country have mandatory vaccine policies in place for healthcare staff. Recently, New York state made the news with its own policy, as detailed in an article in the Albany Times Union. The New York Health Department is requiring people who work at hospitals, nursing homes and other healthcare environments to receive flu shots by the time flu season’s in full swing, or else they’ll be required to wear surgical masks when in close proximity to patients.

One healthcare system in Florida has taken an even more forceful approach, according to an article inFlorida Today. Employees of Health First in Brevard County, FL, who don’t receive a flu shot and haven’t submitted valid proof of a medical or religious exemption won’t be put on the work schedule after Dec. 15.

Policies like this go a long way in improving vaccination rates among healthcare employees. Recent info from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) says that only about 64% of all healthcare staffers are vaccinated against the flu.

Currently, over 400 hospitals in the U.S. have a policy requiring employees to be vaccinated against the flu, according to a survey conducted by the CDC. And in 2011, 29 of them terminated staff for refusing to get a flu shot, as reported in NBCNews.

In one highly publicized case last winter, detailed in an article from UPI, six employees were fired from Goshen Hospital in Goshen, IN, after refusing to receive flu shots. Two other employees voluntarily resigned from their positions.

Although such policies aren’t officially supported by the CDC, they’ve been touted as the best way to keep hospital patients who are already in poor health from becoming more ill, and several hospitals have reported positive results since implementing them.

And most employees do decide to get the flu shot, with few objections or issues. In fact, after Loyola University Health System in Chicago instituted a mandatory vaccination policy four years ago, the health system experienced a 99% compliance rate, with few employees deciding to object to the policy or quit their jobs, reported ScienceDaily.
 
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I find it hilariously hypocritical that the healthcare workers who get the crappy flu shots, which are proven to protect for only about 50% of the strains this year, don't have to wear masks around patients. What if they get infected with the other 50% of the strains??? Bureaucrat-logic, again. Sounds more like punishment against people who refuse the vaccine, than concern for the patients.

I sincerely hope these lawsuits will make some hospitals pay a few good millions in damages, so that the 1% loss from Medicare will look like peanuts. Unfortunately, these damages are never paid by the executives who took the decisions in the first place.
 
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Fisher outlined these three primary health concerns in a recent NVIC video update:

  1. Guillain-Barre syndrome (GBS), an autoimmune disease which has been associated with influenza vaccine since 1976, when the swine flu vaccine was first used. In fact, British government health experts acknowledged the link between the H1N1 vaccine and an increased risk of GBS4 earlier this month. Prior to this public admittance, the government had always denied such a link
  2. Idiopathic thrombocytopenia purpura (ITP), an autoimmune disorder, is a blood clotting disorder characterized by insufficient platelets
  3. Bell's palsy, a reaction causing temporary facial paralysis
Why are people having these worrisome reactions?

Vaccines Wreak Havoc on Your Immune System
All vaccines are immune suppressive—that is, they suppress your immune system, which may not return to normal for weeks to months. Here are just some of the ways vaccines impair and alter your immune response:

  • Some components in vaccines are neurotoxic and may depress your immune and brain function, particularly heavy metals such as mercury preservatives and aluminum adjuvants
  • The lab altered vaccine viruses themselves may further impair your immune response
  • Foreign DNA/RNA from animal tissues can wreak havoc in your body and trigger autoimmunity in some people
  • Vaccines may alter your t-cell function and lead you to become chronically ill
  • Vaccines can trigger allergies by introducing large foreign protein molecules into your body that have not been properly broken down by your digestive tract (since they are injected). Your body can respond to these foreign particles in the form of an allergic reaction
The flu vaccine may also pose an immediate risk to your cardiovascular system. One 2007 study published in the Annals of Medicine5 concluded that:

"Abnormalities in arterial function and LDL oxidation may persist for at least 2 weeks after a slight inflammatory reaction induced by influenza vaccination.

These could explain in part the earlier reported increase in cardiovascular risk during the first weeks after an acute inflammatory disorder."

Add to all those factors the immune-compromising effects of excess sugar in the average American diet, plus inadequate exercise and other lifestyle factors, and you've created the perfect setup for health problems far worse than influenza.

So the tradeoff you are making is TOTAL immune system depression (your defense against millions of pathogens) for temporary immunity against ONE infectious disease—in this case a few of the many viral strains of influenza—and that immunity is questionable.

Do you really want to trade in temporary immunity to a few strains of influenza for autoimmune disease or even cancer
 
Evidence-Based Medicine Flushed Down the Drain: FLU SHOTS DON'T WORK
Not only do flu shots weaken your immune system, expose you to toxins, and cause allergies and other adverse reactions,they don't work.

Yes, you read that correctly. Besides being fraught with complications, flu vaccines simply don't work to decrease flu incidence or flu mortality. Flu vaccinations keep coming up short in study after study—way short—when it comes to having any measurable impact on what matters most, which is reducing illness and mortality from the flu.

After the largest flu-vaccination campaign in Canadian history, a Canadian-led study9 (through the Cochrane Collaboration, a highly respected international network of researchers who analyze the scientific evidence, including the methodology, used in clinical trials) concluded that vaccinating nursing home workers had no effect on confirmed influenza cases among the homes' elderly residents.

Lead researcher Dr. Roger Thomas explained:

"What troubled us is that [shots] had no effect on laboratory-confirmed influenza. What we were looking for is proof that influenza ... is decreased.

Didn't find it.

We looked for proof that pneumonia is reduced. Didn't find it. We looked for proof deaths from pneumonia are reduced.

Didn't find it."

In fact, in April of 2010, Michael Osterholm, director of the national Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP), publicly admitted that flu shots don't work in the elderly.

One factor that may explain this is the "healthy user" effect.

Lisa Jackson's 'Healthy User' Effect
Lisa Jackson, a physician and senior investigator with the Group Health Research Center in Seattle, found that healthy people tend to choose flu vaccination, while the "frail elderly" didn't or couldn't. Her research suggested that flu vaccine itself does not reduce mortality at all.10

Healthy (and health-conscious) people tend to get the vaccine AND come down with flu less often, not because of the vaccine itself but because they are healthier to start with.

Jackson concluded:

"The reductions in risk before influenza season indicate preferential receipt of vaccine by relatively healthy seniors... the magnitude of the bias demonstrated by the associations before the influenza season was sufficient to account entirely for the associations observed during influenza season."

Unfortunately, Jackson's papers were turned down for publication in the leading medical journals.

If You Think You Have the Flu, the Odds Are Five to One You Don't
You may not be aware that only about 20 percent of flu-like illnesses are actually caused by influenza type A or B, according to CDC. The other 80 percent are caused by more than 200 other bugs that can make you feel just as sick - respiratory syncytial virus, bocavirus, coronavirus, and rhinovirus, to name a few.

Every day, you're around viruses and bacteria, and when you're healthy, you usually don't get sick. But even if you do get sick, most healthy adults and children will not have a problem with influenza.

If you do come down with influenza and have a good immune response, you will likely quickly recover without serious complications, as well as obtain natural immunity to that strain of influenza and to similar ones.

Respiratory infections statistically increase with age as the average person's immune system generally weakens. When a person over age 65 dies of respiratory failure after a flu-like illness, their cause of death is nearly always labeled as influenza even if it is actually due to bacterial pneumonia.

The vaccine industry loves to attribute many deaths in the elderly to influenza because it pumps up the influenza mortality statistics and helps make a case for use of influenza vaccine.

But you have to die of something, and dying of respiratory viruses is quite common. Just remember this when reading flu mortality statistics: very few deaths from respiratory illnesses are actually caused by type A or type B influenza viruses.

You Could Already Be Immune to the Flu!
Vaccine-acquired immunity is temporary, whereas the immunity you get by recovering from influenza is longer lasting. Look at Baby Boomers, for example. Evidence shows, if you are an aging baby boomer born prior to 1957, you are more protected and have a lower risk for pandemic H1N1 influenza that circulated in 2009 and other related influenza strains.

Why?

Because you have long-lasting antibodies that help you resist influenza, antibodies that you acquired by recovering from similar strains of influenza in past decades. Unfortunately, if public health officials and drug companies marketing vaccines have their way, your children and grandchildren won't be allowed the opportunity to develop this important natural immunity to type A and type B influenza strains.

So the question is this: why do we continue doing something that has been proven ineffective many times over? As the saying goes, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results."

The real way to prevent the flu is through optimal lifestyle and nutrition, and getting plenty of vitamin D, lowering stress and getting the right amount of sleep, and Western medical science has glossed right over that.

Tom Jefferson is a physician based in Rome and the head of the Vaccines Field at the Cochrane Collaboration. Jefferson leads an international team of researchers who have combed through hundreds of flu-vaccine studies and have concluded the majority of these studies are "deeply flawed."11

Jefferson states:

"Rubbish is not a scientific term, but I think it's the term that applies... We have built huge, population-based policies on the flimsiest of scientific evidence. The most unethical thing to do is to carry on business as usual."

I couldn't agree more.
 
I have no issue about wearing a mask... if everybody wears a mask. The flu shot does not protect against all influenza strains so, if the flu shot is about protecting patients, we should all wear masks.
 
I don't get the flu shot either, since one of our docs got GB a few years ago, too. Plus it does not cover more than 50% of the strains anyway, so why bother? I usually get a worse flu from the vaccine than without it. I do not believe in the efficacy of the flu vaccine, and there are no real studies proving it's worth one gram of bovine excrement. Thankfully, in my hospital, they don't track it.

It all depends how much one believes in this thing. It might be worth suing them. Or leaving. Or getting the shot.

I personally find it unacceptable. This is not the Soviet Union. Next time somebody imposes a vaccine on me, they will face a lawsuit.

Ummmmm

Speaking of burning medical diplomas, you realize the vaccine doesn't give you influenza right? Also find it a bit odd that you base your decision not to get a flu shot on somebody else getting Guillain-Barre. I mean that'd be like not flying because your neighbor got killed in a plane crash 10 years ago.

I've gotten vaccinated every year for 15+ years. I've almost never been sick in that time other than sniffles and runny nose. This year I got influenza and was terribly ill for 3 days. Only saving grace was I was on vacation so didn't have to call out. I've never missed a day of work and I would've been out for several days if I wasn't already off. It was brutal.
 
Ummmmm

Speaking of burning medical diplomas, you realize the vaccine doesn't give you influenza right? Also find it a bit odd that you base your decision not to get a flu shot on somebody else getting Guillain-Barre. I mean that'd be like not flying because your neighbor got killed in a plane crash 10 years ago.

I've gotten vaccinated every year for 15+ years. I've almost never been sick in that time other than sniffles and runny nose. This year I got influenza and was terribly ill for 3 days. Only saving grace was I was on vacation so didn't have to call out. I've never missed a day of work and I would've been out for several days if I wasn't already off. It was brutal.
The vaccine can give flu-like symptoms. From where I stand, they are worse than the flu I usually don't get, because I get the side effects almost all the time.

The fact that we already know about n=2 GB cases on this forum suggests that it's much more frequent than the 1 in 1,000,000 vaccinations number the manufacturers like to quote. The reason I am not getting this shot is not just GB; every substance introduced in the body has side-effects, especially immunologically-active ones, and the risks in this case far outweigh the benefits from where I stand. You wouldn't get some experimental drug you don't actually need, just because your employer says so, would you?

I want to remind you that we are talking about a highly-imperfect vaccine, so the 15 years you haven't had a flu in don't mean anything; you might have been spared even if unvaccinated. This is a constantly mutating virus, hence the impossibility of predicting the exact strains (all the vaccine does in most cases is attenuate the symptoms, and only IF the manufacturers guess close enough). You could also keep on smoking for 15+ years, too, but that's not a reason for me to do the same thing. As Blade and I have already pointed out: there are basically zero studies showing a benefit of mass vaccinations of healthcare workers. It's just "expert opinion", also known as political correctness, full of personal biases.

And I find it laughable that the hospitals are so concerned about passing on influenza to patients, but are perfectly fine with unmasked workers running around with various viral respiratory diseases, coughing and sneezing left and right, year-round, actively infecting co-workers and patients. That's not basis for dismissal, right? I think the main reason hospitals want their workers vaccinated is so that they can't call in sick for having flu-like symptoms, because it's politically correct and permitted to spit around other respiratory pathogens, just not influenza; that's how the public has been indoctrinated. TB, flu, Ebola, Satan, you name it.
 
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Influenza vaccination for healthcare workers who care for people aged 60 or older living in long-term care institutions
  1. Roger E Thomas1,*,
  2. Tom Jefferson2,
  3. Toby J Lasserson3
Editorial Group: Cochrane Acute Respiratory Infections Group

Published Online: 22 JUL 2013

Assessed as up-to-date: 31 MAR 2013

DOI: 10.1002/14651858.CD005187.pub4

Copyright © 2013 The Cochrane Collaboration. Published by John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD005187.pub4/abstract
There is no evidence that only vaccinating healthcare workers prevents laboratory-proven influenza or its complications (lower respiratory tract infection, hospitalisation or death due to lower respiratory tract infection) in individuals aged 60 or over in LTCIs and thus no evidence to mandate compulsory vaccination of healthcare workers. Other interventions, such as hand-washing, masks, early detection of influenza with nasal swabs, antivirals, quarantine, restricting visitors and asking healthcare workers with an influenza-like illness not to attend work, might protect individuals over 60 in LTCIs. High-quality randomised controlled trials testing combinations of these interventions are needed.
 
Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults
  1. Vittorio Demicheli1,*,
  2. Tom Jefferson2,
  3. Lubna A Al-Ansary3,
  4. Eliana Ferroni4,
  5. Alessandro Rivetti1,
  6. Carlo Di Pietrantonj1
Editorial Group: Cochrane Acute Respiratory Infections Group

Published Online: 13 MAR 2014

Assessed as up-to-date: 24 MAY 2013

DOI: 10.1002/14651858.CD001269.pub5

Copyright © 2014 The Cochrane Collaboration. Published by John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD001269.pub5/abstract
Authors' conclusions
Influenza vaccines have a very modest effect in reducing influenza symptoms and working days lost in the general population, including pregnant women. No evidence of association between influenza vaccination and serious adverse events was found in the comparative studies considered in the review. This review includes 90 studies, 24 of which (26.7%) were funded totally or partially by industry. Out of the 48 RCTs, 17 were industry-funded (35.4%).
 
The mandatory flu vaccine in U.S. hospitals is another example of bureaucrats dictating medical care without scientific evidence.
This is not much different than mandating things like shoe covers and hats in operating rooms and many other ritualistic behaviors that we are forced to do because some bureaucrat thought it was a good idea.
 
I don't think it should be mandatory as a matter of my opinion but a private employer should have the right to determine the requirements to work for them and then if we don't like it...we leave. If we run out of places to leave to, then we decide if it's worth a different career or just putting up with it
 
I'm too lazy to look, but I recall seeing evidence of lower in hospital mortality rates at hospitals that require flu vaccines compared to those that don't.
 
I don't think it should be mandatory as a matter of my opinion but a private employer should have the right to determine the requirements to work for them and then if we don't like it...we leave. If we run out of places to leave to, then we decide if it's worth a different career or just putting up with it

You are correct. Having a job isn't a right and an employer can set up whatever qualifications they want so long as they don't discriminate against a protected category by doing so.
 
I'm too lazy to look, but I recall seeing evidence of lower in hospital mortality rates at hospitals that require flu vaccines compared to those that don't.
Correct, someone actually did an RCT on this.

J Infect Dis. 1997 Jan;175(1):1-6.
Influenza vaccination of health care workers in long-term-care hospitals reduces the mortality of elderly patients.
Potter J, Stott DJ, Roberts MA, Elder AG, O'Donnell B, Knight PV, Carman WF.
Division of Virology, Institute of Biomedical and Life Sciences, University of Glasgow, United Kingdom.
Abstract
Vaccination of health care workers (HCWs) is recommended as a strategy for preventing influenza in elderly patients in long-term care. However, there have been no controlled studies to show whether this approach is effective. During the winter of 1994-1995, 1059 patients in 12 geriatric medical long-term-care sites, randomized for vaccination of HCWs, were studied. In hospitals where HCWs were offered vaccination, 653 (61%) of 1078 were vaccinated. Vaccination of HCWs was associated with reductions in total patient mortality from 17% to 10% (odds ratio [OR], 0.56; 95% confidence interval [CI], 0.40-0.80) and in influenza-like illness (OR, 0.57; 95% CI, 0.34-0.94). Vaccination of patients was not associated with significant effects on mortality (OR, 1.15; 95% CI, 0.81-1.64). Results of this study support recommendations for vaccination against influenza of HCWs in long-term geriatric care. Vaccination of frail elderly long-term-care patients may not give clinically worthwhile benefits.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=8985189
 

So looking at the reviews, there are definitely two camps of thoughts. Some big net analyses like the Cochrane ones will specifically ignore all cause mortality and try to focus in on just respiratory mortality. That seems to washout the significant effects found in many of the RCTs that look at it. The vaccines in the trials are often donated by a pharmaceutical company, so there may be some bias there.

I don't think anyone would argue that Big Pharma is making loot off of flu vaccines though. The regulatory burden, the annually changing development, and even with mandatory vaccination, it's still a small market item. They'd make more money with cures and treatments for the flu than with prevention techniques.

There's a definite desire to lower costs and making sure employees are vaccinated, don't smoke, and eat right are things that businesses are all pushing.
 
Anyone who thinks that the mild symptoms one gets from the flu shot compares at all to a real influenza infection has never gotten the flu or is exaggerating. I had the flu once. It was brutal and would have put me out of work for a week and I was not myself for a lot longer than that. I don't ever want it again.
I get my vaccination annually.
As for Alzheimer's, that is an article I'd have to look at myself. It sounds like autism all over again. Maybe they're right, they give the flu shot to the elderly, old people get Alzheimer's, Alzheimer's is on the rise... let's get Jenny McCarthy to look into this. It has nothing to do with living longer, etc.
 
Anyone who thinks that the mild symptoms one gets from the flu shot compares at all to a real influenza infection has never gotten the flu or is exaggerating. I had the flu once. It was brutal and would have put me out of work for a week and I was not myself for a lot longer than that. I don't ever want it again.
I get my vaccination annually.
As for Alzheimer's, that is an article I'd have to look at myself. It sounds like autism all over again. Maybe they're right, they give the flu shot to the elderly, old people get Alzheimer's, Alzheimer's is on the rise... let's get Jenny McCarthy to look into this. It has nothing to do with living longer, etc.
So what should I do, if the vaccine makes me feel like crap for a week, every time?

This is not like the autism hysteria by far. There is simply no good evidence that mass vaccinations of healthcare workers change anything. It just sounds good for the bureaucrats, like everybody wearing masks in the OR. Anesthetists don't wear masks in Europe, and they don't have more postop infections than us. Try that here with all the "expert" opinions.

Influenza vaccines don't confer herd immunity for the simple reason that they don't confer individual immunity either, in most years. So it's not like the vaccines for MMR/polio/you name it.
I don't think it should be mandatory as a matter of my opinion but a private employer should have the right to determine the requirements to work for them and then if we don't like it...we leave. If we run out of places to leave to, then we decide if it's worth a different career or just putting up with it
If this is about employees taking fewer sick-days, what's next, asking employees to take contraceptives, so that the pregnancy doesn't incommode the employer? What are we, cattle? This is way beyond what an employer should be able to require.

This is not like quitting smoking. This is like requiring the employee to smoke, because the employer thinks that it has benefits. I can accept not putting certain substances into my body to be able to work, but not the opposite. This is about what's more important: corporate orders or individual freedom?
 
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So what should I do, if the vaccine makes me feel like crap for a week, every time?

This is not like the autism hysteria by far. There is simply no good evidence that mass vaccinations of healthcare workers change anything. It's just bureaucratic hysteria. For example, anesthetists don't wear masks in Europe, and they don't have more postop infections than us. Try that here with all the "expert" opinions.

If this is about employees taking fewer sick-days, what's next, asking employees to take contraceptives, so that the pregnancy doesn't incommode the employer? What are we, cattle? This is way beyond what an employer should be able to require. My body is my temple, not the employer's.

This is not like quitting smoking. This is like requiring the employee to smoke, because the employer thinks that it has benefits.
I don't care if a private employer demands everyone wear corsets and sing "chatannoga choochoo" once an hour......the government shouldn't be involved. if the demands are that outrageous, enough people will have to leave/complain to get the policy changed
 
It is their effort to keep employees, who regularly come to work mildly ill, from giving influenza to compromised patients. That's it.
No tinfoil hat required.
Not proven that it happens. That's the whole point. Whether you vaccinate healthcare workers or not, frail patients do the same. How about that? And I'll tell you why: because immunocompromised patients will get influenza even from an asymptomatic/less-symptomatic healthcare worker. These vaccines rarely protect 100% against the infection per se, they just make the symptoms milder, if that, so you still have carriers.

I would jump through hoops for my patients, just not for some bureaucrat's knee-jerk reflex.
 
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The plural of "anecdote" isn't "data." I don't care how many people you know who got GBS.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/one-flu-into-the-****oos-nest/
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/flu-vaccine-efficacy/
tl;dr: The flu vaccine is an awful paragon as far as vaccines go. The nature of the vaccine and the flu seasons make it hard to study and hard to make 100% effective in real practice. Plus, not enough people tend to get it to confer herd immunity. However, when done right, there's clearly evidence of benefit including decreased shedding of the infectious virus.

BLADEMDA is posting articles from this guy's website: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola
So, per usual, just ignore everything he says.

It's so crazy to me that you two are probably the biggest influence to a number of anesthesiology-interested med students outside of their home institution.
 
It shouldn't even be an issue. How can the government decide what drugs have to go into your body. The Flu shot only protects those that take it. If you don’t take the shot and get sick , you don’t go to work that easy.
 
It shouldn't even be an issue. How can the government decide what drugs have to go into your body. The Flu shot only protects those that take it. If you don’t take the shot and get sick , you don’t go to work that easy.
Exactly! If the flu shots do work, people who don't get vaccinated will lose workdays, hence money, and next year will insist to get the vaccine. The only policy that makes sense is not being able to work if having symptoms of any respiratory infection. That's what would protect the patients and co-workers, not the current system.

Currently, if you got vaccinated, it's OK to come to work while coughing and sneezing. But if you're unvaccinated and asymptomatic, you get to wear a mask as punishment!
 
Do you tend to ignore Cochrane reviews, too? 🙂
Do you?


How about the general population? The most recent Cochrane meta analysis of the vaccine efficacy in 66,248 people (almost Cardiology levels of patient involvement) from 2004 (PubMed),

“Inactivated parenteral vaccines were 30% effective (95% CI 17% to 41%) against influenza-like illness, and 80% (95% CI 56% to 91%) efficacious against influenza when the vaccine matched the circulating strain and circulation was high, but decreased to 50% (95% CI 27% to 65%) when it did not. Excluding the studies of the 1968 to 1969 pandemic, effectiveness was 15% (95% CI 9% to 22%) and efficacy was 73% (95% CI 53% to 84%). Vaccination had a modest effect on time off work, but there was insufficient evidence to draw conclusions on hospital admissions or complication rates. Inactivated vaccines caused local tenderness and soreness and erythema. Spray vaccines had more modest performance. Monovalent whole-virion vaccines matching circulating viruses had high efficacy (VE 93%, 95% CI 69% to 98%) and effectiveness (VE 66%, 95% CI 51% to 77%) against the 1968 to 1969 pandemic.

AUTHORS’ CONCLUSIONS: Influenza vaccines are effective in reducing cases of influenza, especially when the content predicts accurately circulating types and circulation is high. However, they are less effective in reducing cases of influenza-like illness and have a modest impact on working days lost. There is insufficient evidence to assess their impact on complications.”

RTFAs before you comment.
 
RTFAs before you comment.
Back atcha. See the two latest Cochrane reviews I quoted above.
It's so crazy to me that you two are probably the biggest influence to a number of anesthesiology-interested med students outside of their home institution.
What can I say? It's a crazy, crazy world! I always appreciate being lumped together with true crazies like the antivaccination movement (Jenny McCarthy etc.). I could also imagine much worse than being influenced by Blade, even mistakenly.

It's always easier and more convenient just to go with the flow, and be "normal", especially in science. Which reminds me of this (not that I qualify):

 
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It shouldn't even be an issue. How can the government decide what drugs have to go into your body. The Flu shot only protects those that take it. If you don’t take the shot and get sick , you don’t go to work that easy.
That's what I'd call common sense. It just doesn't sit well with the bureaucrats, who want us working even while sick. So our vaccinated status is their excuse.

To all people who feel OK about compulsory vaccinations, a friendly reminder: Give me liberty, or give me death!
 
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Back atcha. See the two latest Cochrane reviews I quoted above.

What can I say? It's a crazy, crazy world! I always appreciate being lumped together with true crazies like the antivaccination movement (Jenny McCarthy etc.). I could also imagine much worse than being influenced by Blade, even mistakenly.

It's always easier and more convenient just to go with the flow, and be "normal", especially in science. Which reminds me of this (not that I qualify):



To all people who feel OK about compulsory vaccinations, a friendly reminder: Give me liberty, or give me death!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16631547?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24046301
It reduces mortality. End of story.

You're a guy cherry-picking evidence so you can feel better about not wanting to get stuck with a needle. You're a guy who claimed that the influenza vaccine "doesn't work." When it's shown that it very clearly does work, you move the goal posts. When there's evidence that HCWs being vaccinated does decrease mortality in patients, you claim you're Patrick Henry. You're not even from New Hampshire.
 
That's what I'd call common sense. It just doesn't sit well with the bureaucrats, who want us working even while sick. So our vaccinated status is their excuse.

To all people who feel OK about compulsory vaccinations, a friendly reminder: Give me liberty, or give me death!

that was about liberty from government interference.....which is ironic while asking the government to interfere in a private business
 
Let's cherry-pick what they said:
Using GRADE, the quality of the evidence for the effect of HCP vaccination on mortality and influenza cases in patients was moderate and low, respectively. The evidence quality for the effect of HCP vaccination on patient hospitalization was low. The overall evidence quality was moderate.
"Moderate" and "low" are euphemisms for "we wouldn't bet money on these conclusions not being disproved in the future".
 
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that was about liberty from government interference.....which is ironic while asking the government to interfere in a private business
The government must interfere to protect individual liberties, which come before any corporate "rights". Remember the "right" not to serve certain groups of customers? Do we really need a Body Rights Act, too?
 
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The government has to interfere to protect individual liberties, which come before any corporate "rights". Remember the "right" not to serve certain groups of customers?

aahhh, so you have a right to cash their checks without doing what they require to get the checks? interesting
 
aahhh, so you have a right to cash their checks without doing what they require to get the checks? interesting
You know what I mean. How about taking the customers' checks, but giving them the cash only after they get the flu vaccine? 🙂

Because that's exactly how imposing a vaccination that was not included in the employment contract sounds.
 
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