Match Results, Class of 2013

[DrBumblebee]

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This may be unrelated, but it looks like, while some top MD residencies refuse to accept DO candidates, they're perfectly willing to take students from low tier MD schools like Meharry, which has an accepted student profile with the same GPA and MCAT scores that DO schools have.

I'm just a pre-med, and fairly ignorant about these things, but it looks like, as MD schools become more competitive, more applicants will turn to DO schools, whose accepted GPA and MCAT scores will consequently rise. With an increasing number of high-achieving DO students, more will be able to break into top MD residency programs, and hopefully, the DO- bias will diminish.

Then, you must get surprised with the fact that some have Ross, St. George's, Saba graduate residents and even professors as MDs.

 

[235009]

This may be unrelated, but it looks like, while some top MD residencies refuse to accept DO candidates, they're perfectly willing to take students from low tier MD schools like Meharry, which has an accepted student profile with the same GPA and MCAT scores that DO schools have.

I'm just a pre-med, and fairly ignorant about these things, but it looks like, as MD schools become more competitive, more applicants will turn to DO schools, whose accepted GPA and MCAT scores will consequently rise. With an increasing number of high-achieving DO students, more will be able to break into top MD residency programs, and hopefully, the DO- bias will diminish.

if the PDs were concerned about undergrad GPA and MCAT they would simply ask for it. that's not the issue. the problem is the inconsistency of DO clinical training that makes some PDs shy away from DO schools and preferentially take applicants from LCME accredited schools with an established track record even if the quality of students at the pre-med stage was similar. so even if there were more "high-achieving" DO students in the future, some PDs will still be worried that DO clinical training is inconsistent or inferior and you definitely don't want to risk picking the potentially unprepared candidate over one whose education met a certain minimum standard.

 

[DrBumblebee]

if the PDs were concerned about undergrad GPA and MCAT they would simply ask for it. that's not the issue. the problem is the inconsistency of DO clinical training that makes some PDs shy away from DO schools and preferentially take applicants from LCME accredited schools with an established track record even if the quality of students at the pre-med stage was similar. so even if there were more "high-achieving" DO students in the future, some PDs will still be worried that DO clinical training is inconsistent or inferior and you definitely don't want to risk picking the potentially unprepared candidate over one whose education met a certain minimum standard.

I'd like to ask an honest question since I really don't know about the facts about this: say if, one day, LCME starts accreditting the DO schools, will those DO schools then become as eligible as other MD schools for those "some" PDs? How do you think this is more of a political bias instead, which must be diminished by certain legislative authorities?

What do you think make(s) MD school graduates more preferential than those of DO schools for those "some" PDs?

 

[LovelyBRass]

What do you think make(s) MD school graduates more preferential than those of DO schools for those "some" PDs?

Hands down the biggest difference in training is the more academically-inclined and more standardized third and fourth year with plenty of LCME oversight.

 

[DrBumblebee]

Hands down the biggest difference in training is the more academically-inclined and more standardized third and fourth year with plenty of LCME oversight.

Which one you meant?

1. DO schools are ditzy.
2. MD schools are of purely theoretical or speculative interest.
3. MD schools are excessively concerned with intellectual matters and lacking experience of practical affairs.
4. MD schools are relating to studies such as languages, philosophy, and pure science, rather than applied, technical, or professional studies.

 

[TChapmanwvu1]

Would somebody please post the VCOM 2013 Match Resutls

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Which one you meant?

1. DO schools are ditzy.
2. MD schools are of purely theoretical or speculative interest.
3. MD schools are excessively concerned with intellectual matters and lacking experience of practical affairs.
4. MD schools are relating to studies such as languages, philosophy, and pure science, rather than applied, technical, or professional studies.

A little bit of each. But seriously, to answer your previous question with my speculations, I'd say that if DO schools are LCME accredited then there would be no difference in PD's minds. In fact, if that happens, there would probably be no need for the AOA. LCME accredited would probably mean more quality 3rd and 4th year sites and more chance at a better clinical education. SkinMD does come off as brash at times, but he does bring up some good points.

 

[docnotsopc]

Although not the usual situation, lets not forget the small % of DO students who religiously try to share their OMM knowledge with allopathic students/doctors. While some OMM is good, a lot of it is also useless or exaggerated.....

For example, If you were taught from your top 10 MD school that you treat CA pneumonia with Macrolide or Fluoroquinolone etc.....and you take any pride in your education...... imagine a student from an unfamiliar degree telling you that you treat the pneumonia with Rib raising, a technique where you put your hands awkwardly under the patient and push up. How open minded are you going to be that this works when you have scientific proof that certain antibiotics work and your school is probably one of the leading medical schools in research where its all about genetics etc?

OMM has its uses, but know when its appropriate to suggest and when not to suggest. Unfortunately, a handful of DO students drink too much of the koolaid and quite frankly it makes us look bad at times. This was also a comment from an MD teaching at my school.

 

[username456789]

Although not the usual situation, lets not forget the small % of DO students who religiously try to share their OMM knowledge with allopathic students/doctors. While some OMM is good, a lot of it is also useless or exaggerated.....

For example, If you were taught from your top 10 MD school that you treat CA pneumonia with Macrolide or Fluoroquinolone etc.....and you take any pride in your education...... imagine a student from an unfamiliar degree telling you that you treat the pneumonia with Rib raising, a technique where you put your hands awkwardly under the patient and push up. How open minded are you going to be that this works when you have scientific proof that certain antibiotics work and your school is probably one of the leading medical schools in research where its all about genetics etc?

OMM has its uses, but know when its appropriate to suggest and when not to suggest. Unfortunately, a handful of DO students drink too much of the koolaid and quite frankly it makes us look bad at times. This was also a comment from an MD teaching at my school.

Kind of off topic here, but I was completely flabbergasted that "rib raising" was a serious thing when I saw one of the DO interns I work with doing it in a patient with pneumonia/COPD.

 

[abolt18]

Kind of off topic here, but I was completely flabbergasted that "rib raising" was a serious thing when I saw one of the DO interns I work with doing it in a patient with pneumonia/COPD.

Please tell me that rib raising is not the sole treatment used. I hope it goes WITH antibiotics?

 

[username456789]

Please tell me that rib raising is not the sole treatment used. I hope it goes WITH antibiotics?

Haha no it was totally in conjunction with standard, correct treatment. It just seemed like a such an odd concept regardless.

 

[Oo Cipher oO]

Kind of off topic here, but I was completely flabbergasted that "rib raising" was a serious thing when I saw one of the DO interns I work with doing it in a patient with pneumonia/COPD.

Techniques like rib raising are used to improve thoracic respiratory mechanics in hospitalized patients and/or patients with respiratory disease processes (such as infections or obstructive diseases). In conjunction with other therapy what's the problem?

 

[LovelyBRass]

Which one you meant?

1. DO schools are ditzy.
2. MD schools are of purely theoretical or speculative interest.
3. MD schools are excessively concerned with intellectual matters and lacking experience of practical affairs.
4. MD schools are relating to studies such as languages, philosophy, and pure science, rather than applied, technical, or professional studies.

You asked a question, I gave you an answer. This has been written about extensively on SDN, particularly what makes clinical training great and university v community hospitals. Your response shows you clearly refuse to hear anything against your beliefs. Stop pushing the issue.

Although not the usual situation, lets not forget the small % of DO students who religiously try to share their OMM knowledge with allopathic students/doctors. While some OMM is good, a lot of it is also useless or exaggerated.....

For example, If you were taught from your top 10 MD school that you treat CA pneumonia with Macrolide or Fluoroquinolone etc.....and you take any pride in your education...... imagine a student from an unfamiliar degree telling you that you treat the pneumonia with Rib raising, a technique where you put your hands awkwardly under the patient and push up. How open minded are you going to be that this works when you have scientific proof that certain antibiotics work and your school is probably one of the leading medical schools in research where its all about genetics etc?

OMM has its uses, but know when its appropriate to suggest and when not to suggest. Unfortunately, a handful of DO students drink too much of the koolaid and quite frankly it makes us look bad at times. This was also a comment from an MD teaching at my school.

Mind --> blown.

Got any good articles/reading material about it online? I've heard of spinal manipulation, etc, but not this. Googling/Wiki searches are pretty thumbs down (tell you how to do it but not what it is or why it works) and UpToDate's got nothing.

 

[DrBumblebee]

You asked a question, I gave you an answer. This has been written about extensively on SDN, particularly what makes clinical training great and university v community hospitals. Your response shows you clearly refuse to hear anything against your beliefs. Stop pushing the issue.

This is a huge generalization of which depends on many factors. IMHO, clinical education of any sort depends on what type of attendings you'll get on your way, your personal eagerness to learn, and how much you'll be allowed to do on your part by being supervised by residents/attendings. Surrounded by gunner senior residents/fellows/attendings in a cut throat program might not be suitable for me to learn in a huge "academic" program, let alone to do mistakes and learn from my mistakes. I only care for what I'll get from a program, not its big name. Anyway, thank you for your answer.

 

[as1212559]

Your response shows you clearly refuse to hear anything against your beliefs.

Nail hit. On head.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

This is a huge generalization of which depends on many factors. IMHO, clinical education of any sort depends on what type of attendings you'll get on your way, your personal eagerness to learn, and how much you'll be allowed to do on your part by being supervised by residents/attendings. Surrounded by gunner senior residents/fellows/attendings in a cut throat program might not be suitable for me to learn in a huge "academic" program, let alone to do mistakes and learn from my mistakes. I only care for what I'll get from a program, not its big name. Anyway, thank you for your answer.

So much misunderstanding here. University programs are generally (although certainly with exceptions) the places where you get the most autonomy (especially if the program rotates at a VA hospital). University attendings tend to be stronger than community attendings. University hospitals get the sickest patients, and you'll get much broader exposure to pathology. University programs tend to have far better resources and much more research availability, never mind 'big name' attendings for ROLs.

On the other hand, I've personally dealt with too many community programs where the residents aren't taken seriously, have little to no autonomy and barely see anything outside of bread and butter COPD/CHF exacerbations. Research is practically nonexistent at some of these programs, and prospects for matching certain subspecialties can be pretty dismal. Believe me, the training is not 'better' at most of these places. Frankly the concerns you sometimes hear on SDN about 'domineering fellows' at university programs are vastly overblown outside of some notorious programs (CCF is an example). In short, competitive applicants want to go to university programs for a reason - and the better university programs will give you all the experience, exposure and autonomy you need with far better resources to boot.

 

[LovelyBRass]

So much misunderstanding here. University programs are generally (although certainly with exceptions) the places where you get the most autonomy (especially if the program rotates at a VA hospital). University attendings tend to be stronger than community attendings. University hospitals get the sickest patients, and you'll get much broader exposure to pathology. University programs tend to have far better resources and much more research availability, never mind 'big name' attendings for ROLs.

On the other hand, I've personally dealt with too many community programs where the residents aren't taken seriously, have little to no autonomy and barely see anything outside of bread and butter COPD/CHF exacerbations. Research is practically nonexistent at some of these programs, and prospects for matching certain subspecialties can be pretty dismal. Believe me, the training is not 'better' at most of these places. Frankly the concerns you sometimes hear on SDN about 'domineering fellows' at university programs are vastly overblown outside of some notorious programs (CCF is an example). In short, competitive applicants want to go to university programs for a reason - and the better university programs will give you all the experience, exposure and autonomy you need with far better resources to boot.

Yeah that^

 

[NontradICUdoc]

You really need to do your due diligence to get out out the residency program everything you can. I am at a community hospital and because of that I get to treat everything. Rather than problems going to specialty services, other than surgery, it all goes to medicine. Because of that I have had exposure to many, many different medical problems and I am also able to be proficient in bread and butter issues like chf, diabetes, etc. The population you are exposed to is also a big factor. If you are in rich suburbia where everyone does what they are supposed o then ou will not see anything. However, because I am in a poor area, I get to see pathology that is only seen in text books. Not only that but you need to communicate with e attending a, show them that you have an interest. In addition, because of the population, I was also able to treat malaria and some other tropical diseases that once again is not seen in other institutions.

When you are looking at programs you need to take into account these things. Look for what the population is in the area the hospital services. When you are in your interview ask about the pathology that is seen. If most of your patients are geriatric from nursing homes, you will get good at geriatric medicine and be able To handle polypharmacy but what about other pathology that is non existent in the older population.

Just like a medical school interview, where you are interviewing the school, in your residency interview, you are interviewing the program. Also you will need to be proactive. In my program, I wanted an OMM table so that the DO residents can treat the MD residents to not only keep up the skills, but also to show the MD residents and to teach the medical students. The table arrived last week. When it comes to research, this is an AOA requirement for internal medicine. This does not mean bench work. This also includes clinical research. Some of the projects in my program include, but are not limited to

1) does proper sleep hygiene reduce the incidence of Icu relegated delirium
2) does education about hospice increase the chance it will be used.
3) does a more comprehensive sign out reduce medical errors
4) does pro calcitonin reduce the amount of time antibiotics are used

You need to be heard. If you hear from residents that they are not then maybe that is not the program for you. If you would rather just get through residency and be a little country bumpkin doctor then put the miminum out there.

You get out of something what you put into it. A university setting is not always the best. There are a lot of fellows that will run things. Where in a community hospital, it becomes your house.

 

[235009]

I'd like to ask an honest question since I really don't know about the facts about this: say if, one day, LCME starts accreditting the DO schools, will those DO schools then become as eligible as other MD schools for those "some" PDs? How do you think this is more of a political bias instead, which must be diminished by certain legislative authorities?

What do you think make(s) MD school graduates more preferential than those of DO schools for those "some" PDs?

If the LCME accredits a DO school then it can and would become a US MD school.

The reason some PDs prefer US MD students isn't due to "bias" it is because of the more rigorous and consistent standards of the LCME. calling it a bias suggests that the preference is irrational. others have described very well the gap in clinical training typically seen between US MD and DO schools.

 

[username456789]

Techniques like rib raising are used to improve thoracic respiratory mechanics in hospitalized patients and/or patients with respiratory disease processes (such as infections or obstructive diseases). In conjunction with other therapy what's the problem?

Admittedly I know very little about rib raising or most OMM treatments, but the "problem", I suppose, is my inability to really find anything resembling "evidence" that this treatment actually achieves what it's used for. Now, there very well maybe strong evidence that it is effective for the things you say; however, I feel like, were there such evidence, it would be a much more commonly practiced maneuver among all physicians, MD and DO alike (and I suppose I feel like that with regards to most OMM things, but again I'll admit I have little direct exposure).

 

[sylvanthus]

Admittedly I know very little about rib raising or most OMM treatments, but the "problem", I suppose, is my inability to really find anything resembling "evidence" that this treatment actually achieves what it's used for. Now, there very well maybe strong evidence that it is effective for the things you say; however, I feel like, were there such evidence, it would be a much more commonly practiced maneuver among all physicians, MD and DO alike (and I suppose I feel like that with regards to most OMM things, but again I'll admit I have little direct exposure).

I had an OMT rotation where we spent time every week looking at the evidence for OMT techniques. I can assure you there is very little evidence for a lot of what we are taught.

 

[Textbookversion]

This is a huge generalization of which depends on many factors. IMHO, clinical education of any sort depends on what type of attendings you'll get on your way, your personal eagerness to learn, and how much you'll be allowed to do on your part by being supervised by residents/attendings. Surrounded by gunner senior residents/fellows/attendings in a cut throat program might not be suitable for me to learn in a huge "academic" program, let alone to do mistakes and learn from my mistakes. I only care for what I'll get from a program, not its big name. Anyway, thank you for your answer.

Expert premed is at it again!

 

[docnotsopc]

if the PDs were concerned about undergrad GPA and MCAT they would simply ask for it. that's not the issue. the problem is the inconsistency of DO clinical training that makes some PDs shy away from DO schools and preferentially take applicants from LCME accredited schools with an established track record even if the quality of students at the pre-med stage was similar. so even if there were more "high-achieving" DO students in the future, some PDs will still be worried that DO clinical training is inconsistent or inferior and you definitely don't want to risk picking the potentially unprepared candidate over one whose education met a certain minimum standard.

Expert premed is at it again!

👍

 

[DrBumblebee]

... IMHO, clinical education of any sort depends on what type of attendings you'll get on your way, your personal eagerness to learn, and how much you'll be allowed to do on your part by being supervised by residents/attendings. Surrounded by gunner senior residents/fellows/attendings in a cut throat program might not be suitable for me to learn in a huge "academic" program, let alone to do mistakes and learn from my mistakes. I only care for what I'll get from a program, not its big name. Anyway, thank you for your answer.

You really need to do your due diligence to get out out the residency program everything you can. I am at a community hospital and because of that I get to treat everything. Rather than problems going to specialty services, other than surgery, it all goes to medicine. Because of that I have had exposure to many, many different medical problems and I am also able to be proficient in bread and butter issues like chf, diabetes, etc. The population you are exposed to is also a big factor. If you are in rich suburbia where everyone does what they are supposed o then ou will not see anything. However, because I am in a poor area, I get to see pathology that is only seen in text books. Not only that but you need to communicate with e attending a, show them that you have an interest. In addition, because of the population, I was also able to treat malaria and some other tropical diseases that once again is not seen in other institutions.

When you are looking at programs you need to take into account these things. Look for what the population is in the area the hospital services. When you are in your interview ask about the pathology that is seen. If most of your patients are geriatric from nursing homes, you will get good at geriatric medicine and be able To handle polypharmacy but what about other pathology that is non existent in the older population.

Just like a medical school interview, where you are interviewing the school, in your residency interview, you are interviewing the program. Also you will need to be proactive. In my program, I wanted an OMM table so that the DO residents can treat the MD residents to not only keep up the skills, but also to show the MD residents and to teach the medical students. The table arrived last week. When it comes to research, this is an AOA requirement for internal medicine. This does not mean bench work. This also includes clinical research. Some of the projects in my program include, but are not limited to

1) does proper sleep hygiene reduce the incidence of Icu relegated delirium
2) does education about hospice increase the chance it will be used.
3) does a more comprehensive sign out reduce medical errors
4) does pro calcitonin reduce the amount of time antibiotics are used

You need to be heard. If you hear from residents that they are not then maybe that is not the program for you. If you would rather just get through residency and be a little country bumpkin doctor then put the miminum out there.

You get out of something what you put into it. A university setting is not always the best. There are a lot of fellows that will run things. Where in a community hospital, it becomes your house.

👍

Nail to the ... um, head. From a resident's point of view. 😎

/pissing contest

 

[Textbookversion]

👍

Nail to the ... um, head. From a resident's point of view. 😎

/pissing contest

A resident at a crappy AOA community hospital thinks he is getting an awesome education and it's just as good as a university ACGME program. Never seen that before. Nobody takes these kinds of claims seriously btw.

And by nobody I mean the adults in charge of hiring people, and extending fellowship offers. So you can pat yourself on the back all you want but the people who matter don't take it seriously. And they have the power.

 

[thepoopologist]

A resident at a crappy AOA community hospital thinks he is getting an awesome education and it's just as good as a university ACGME program. Never seen that before. Nobody takes these kinds of claims seriously btw.

And by nobody I mean the adults in charge of hiring people, and extending fellowship offers. So you can pat yourself on the back all you want but the people who matter don't take it seriously. And they have the power.

Have you ever rotated at Loma Linda? Specialty services manage everything, general IM gets **** on. Then you look at its AOA neighbor Arrowhead where IM manages everything.

I think things should be evaluated on a case by case basis. Sometimes it's hard to tell how good a place is until you've seen it. For the most part ACGME programs trump AOA programs but in the above case you don't want to match into some place and then get caught with your dick in your hand.

 

[thepoopologist]

That said, if you want to specialize and you think heading to a name brand IM program will help then by all means head over there regardless. Gotta play the game, right?

 

[DrBumblebee]

Have you ever rotated at Loma Linda? Specialty services manage everything, general IM gets **** on. Then you look at its AOA neighbor Arrowhead where IM manages everything.

I think things should be evaluated on a case by case basis. Sometimes it's hard to tell how good a place is until you've seen it. For the most part ACGME programs trump AOA programs but in the above case you don't want to match into some place and then get caught with your dick in your hand.

+1 👍

A resident at a crappy AOA community hospital thinks he is getting an awesome education and it's just as good as a university ACGME program. Never seen that before. Nobody takes these kinds of claims seriously btw.

And by nobody I mean the adults in charge of hiring people, and extending fellowship offers. So you can pat yourself on the back all you want but the people who matter don't take it seriously. And they have the power.

I doubt these words are coming out of an adult, let alone from a physician candidate 😱. To each his own, though.

There's no end to your quest for perfection. I'd rather have applied to a PhD program if you'd like to write the next version of a textbook (you got it, right. 😎).

Medicine, particularly becoming a physician in medicine, for me, is like choosing a "profession" to make a much better living for me and my family by utilizing my intellectual skills in human biology to help the community. I'm practical and a realist, not a perfectionist. I'd rather have my professional title as doctor/physician instead of something else. If an AOA/ACGME residency program would give me what I wanted, I'd be more than happy, and celebrate. I'm not searching for the best of the best, but an optimal option that would suit my expectations. Life is short. That's it for me.

Having said that, I'd have to admit that I've no idea what your motives are in becoming a physician.

/discussion

Now, to turn back to the thread, anyone to list PCOM's match list(s), soon?

 

[docnotsopc]

+1 👍

I doubt these words are coming out of an adult, let alone from a physician candidate 😱. To each his own, though.

There's no end to your quest for perfection. I'd rather have applied to a PhD program if you'd like to write the next version of a textbook (you got it, right. 😎).

Medicine, particularly becoming a physician in medicine, for me, is like choosing a "profession" to make a much better living for me and my family by utilizing my intellectual skills in human biology to help the community. I'm practical and a realist, not a perfectionist. I'd rather have my professional title as doctor/physician instead of something else. If an AOA/ACGME residency program would give me what I wanted, I'd be more than happy, and celebrate. I'm not searching for the best of the best, but an optimal option that would suit my expectations. Life is short. That's it for me.

Having said that, I'd have to admit that I've no idea what your motives are in becoming a physician.

/discussion

Now, to turn back to the thread, anyone to list PCOM's match list(s), soon?

1) While I think some of the stuff you say isn't necessarily true, I respect that you continue to stand by your beliefs. You definitely are more passionate towards believing DOs can do almost anything than the average DO student

2) Most pre-DO students say exactly what I bolded. I said it too. Before med school, I would have been happy doing FM somewhere rurally because I was so excited to become a physician.........

.........then once med school starts, most DO students change their premed opinion. Once you take certain classes, you begin to like and dislike systems. For example, I came to love heme/onc and the treatments associated with it. I would kill to do Radiation Oncology now. Can I? Hell no, not as a DO. I loved GI and Cardiology too. These happen to be the most competitive IM fellowships. Seeing that I wont do an AOA residency, what are my chances of getting into one of those fellowships as a DO? Its possible, but the odds are stacked against me unless I want to go to an undesirable location.

So while you arent searching for the best of the best right now, that will likely change. I also used to not care about hospital name when I was a pre-med. Now I do want to go to a known university hospital because they have better resources, the teaching will most likely be better......and trust me, after spending 2 years of med school at a mediocre at best school after doing undergrad at a top 20 school.......I want the best teaching possible again. No more of this subpar teaching. You wont see see it now, but most of my classmates caved eventually

 

[DrBumblebee]

1) While I think some of the stuff you say isn't necessarily true, I respect that you continue to stand by your beliefs. You definitely are more passionate towards believing DOs can do almost anything than the average DO student

2) Most pre-DO students say exactly what I bolded. I said it too. Before med school, I would have been happy doing FM somewhere rurally because I was so excited to become a physician.........

.........then once med school starts, most DO students change their premed opinion. Once you take certain classes, you begin to like and dislike systems. For example, I came to love heme/onc and the treatments associated with it. I would kill to do Radiation Oncology now. Can I? Hell no, not as a DO. I loved GI and Cardiology too. These happen to be the most competitive IM fellowships. Seeing that I wont do an AOA residency, what are my chances of getting into one of those fellowships as a DO? Its possible, but the odds are stacked against me unless I want to go to an undesirable location.

So while you arent searching for the best of the best right now, that will likely change. I also used to not care about hospital name when I was a pre-med. Now I do want to go to a known university hospital because they have better resources, the teaching will most likely be better......and trust me, after spending 2 years of med school at a mediocre at best school after doing undergrad at a top 20 school.......I want the best teaching possible again. No more of this subpar teaching. You wont see see it now, but most of my classmates caved eventually

I really understand where you're coming from. Though, it's human nature: in case you've a valley full of gold, you'd ask for a second one; only the black soil would make you satisfy after you've passed away. Having said that, I doubt you'd feel differently if you'd have gone to an MD school. You might have already read about posts this in many MD-only threads on SDN.

Yes, I'm a pragmatic for a reason: I'm not a 20-something that have no life experience; actually, I was graduated from the top-5 research universities even with a masters degree, have almost gone completely through another career, and then decided to change into medicine. Believe me, people of my previous career, too, were all about the same type of pissing contests, regrets, heart-broken, etc. It's a universal thing, not something unique for medicine (i.e. MD vs DO.)

There's no need to belittle the DO education or the AOA programs. Many have been benefiting from them and becoming great physicians for many years now. I've personally known of as well as met with chiefs, program directors, fellows, and residents as DOs at many "great" hospital settings. There's no point in regretting that you'll become a DO and still in this thing as a DO; you can always quit. Maybe that's your calling. Think about it.

I wish you all the success that you deserve in your next steps in medicine.

Peace. 🙂

 

[JeetKuneDo]

A resident at a crappy AOA community hospital thinks he is getting an awesome education and it's just as good as a university ACGME program. Never seen that before. Nobody takes these kinds of claims seriously btw.

Eh, I think that's kind of harsh.

 

[Orthojoe]

" I would kill to do Radiation Oncology now. Can I? Hell no, not as a DO"

Military rad/onc has open spots nearly every year. My buddy osteopath just matched there, we had rad/onc allo match this year in my class.. Oh I've got about 10 other buddy osteopathic physicians who just matched fellow in cards/GI at phenom programs..

Those who say it can't be done have no imagination or work ethic to do it. If its something you really love screw the bias and show them what's up. Don't hide behind the "Its too hard as a DO" whiner mentality. Be more positive about it. Realize yes its an up hill fight but take on the challenge. You're gonna be a physician for heaven's sake!!

I personally agree with Drbumblebee in the idea that I can go anywhere I want if I choose to and a large university with a name may not be my best choice of training.. my osteopathic degree will not stop me. In 5 years I'll post back up here when I've matched ortho onc (a fellowship they say DOs cant get into).

Buck up and lets stop the osteopathic whining - sure I'll concede MDs are smarter... but then I'll wipe their arses with my board scores 🙂 Seriously they are....

 

[DrBumblebee]

" I would kill to do Radiation Oncology now. Can I? Hell no, not as a DO"

Military rad/onc has open spots nearly every year. My buddy osteopath just matched there.. Oh I've got about 10 other buddy osteopathic physicians who just matched fellow in cards/GI at phenom programs..

Those who say it can't be done have no imagination or work ethic to do it. If its something you really love screw the bias and show them what's up. Don't hide behind the "Its too hard as a DO" whiner mentality. Be more positive about it. Realize yes its an up hill fight but take on the challenge. You're gonna be a physician for heaven's sake!!

I personally agree with Drbumblebee in the idea that I can go anywhere I want if I choose to and a large university with a name may not be my best choice of training.. my osteopathic degree will not stop me. In 5 years I'll post back up here when I've matched ortho onc (a fellowship they say DOs cant get into).

Buck up and lets stop the osteopathic whining - sure I'll concede MDs are smarter... but then I'll wipe their arses with my board scores 🙂 Seriously they are....

Great post Orthojoe. 👍.

/whining about being a DO (... seriously, guys!)

 

[NontradICUdoc]

A resident at a crappy AOA community hospital thinks he is getting an awesome education and it's just as good as a university ACGME program. Never seen that before. Nobody takes these kinds of claims seriously btw.

And by nobody I mean the adults in charge of hiring people, and extending fellowship offers. So you can pat yourself on the back all you want but the people who matter don't take it seriously. And they have the power.

EXCUSE ME? Are you talking to me? Do you have any damn idea what you are talking about? Have you ever been to my hospital or program to be able to call it CRAPPY?

If you feel that you have to be spoon fed everything and turf everything to specialties and not experience things as an internist then there you go. But with a dually accredited program like mine, we have had a good track record for fellowships.

So before getting into a pissing match make sure you know what you ar talking about and grow the hell up.

 

[Trogghunter]

but does aoa community vs acgme university really make one any better of an internist?

my base is considered 'community' aoa though interns from other dually accredited services rotate through it. a lot of our IM residents match well into fellowships like our in house cardiology, heme, onc, gi, pulm/cc as well as fellowships throughout the nation. though the IM service is really busy and does not cap admits, every specialist that i have rotated with DO and MD speaks pretty highly of it, and i have known some personally for a number of years. after having rotated through a university acgme program--just one so far, the im residents between the two programs differ only in personality.

i am on the fence of what type of program to pursue to go into hospitalist medicine. any difference for that career path?

 

[DrBumblebee]

EXCUSE ME? Are you talking to me? Do you have any damn idea what you are talking about? Have you ever been to my hospital or program to be able to call it CRAPPY?

If you feel that you have to be spoon fed everything and turf everything to specialties and not experience things as an internist then there you go. But with a dually accredited program like mine, we have had a good track record for fellowships.

So before getting into a pissing match make sure you know what you ar talking about and grow the hell up.

A resident at a crappy AOA community hospital thinks he is getting an awesome education and it's just as good as a university ACGME program. Never seen that before. Nobody takes these kinds of claims seriously btw.

And by nobody I mean the adults in charge of hiring people, and extending fellowship offers. So you can pat yourself on the back all you want but the people who matter don't take it seriously. And they have the power.

👍

Now, if this isn't a nail to the head, then what is?

/whining about being a DO

 

[235009]

Nail hit. On head.

👍

Nail to the ... um, head. From a resident's point of view. 😎

/pissing contest

👍

Now, if this isn't a nail to the head, then what is?

/whining about being a DO

please tell me you're a foreigner and that english is at least your second language because your lack of understanding of sarcasm and idioms is astounding

 

[docnotsopc]

" I would kill to do Radiation Oncology now. Can I? Hell no, not as a DO"

Military rad/onc has open spots nearly every year. My buddy osteopath just matched there, we had rad/onc allo match this year in my class.. Oh I've got about 10 other buddy osteopathic physicians who just matched fellow in cards/GI at phenom programs..

Those who say it can't be done have no imagination or work ethic to do it. If its something you really love screw the bias and show them what's up. Don't hide behind the "Its too hard as a DO" whiner mentality. Be more positive about it. Realize yes its an up hill fight but take on the challenge. You're gonna be a physician for heaven's sake!!

I personally agree with Drbumblebee in the idea that I can go anywhere I want if I choose to and a large university with a name may not be my best choice of training.. my osteopathic degree will not stop me. In 5 years I'll post back up here when I've matched ortho onc (a fellowship they say DOs cant get into).

Buck up and lets stop the osteopathic whining - sure I'll concede MDs are smarter... but then I'll wipe their arses with my board scores 🙂 Seriously they are....

1) Military doesn't count. I'll pass on joining too, thanks though
2) Cards/GI is obviously easier than Rad/Onc. Did they match into ACGME Card/GI? Were they in desirable locations?

Im realistic. I don't drink the koolaid. Its not impossible, but its significantly harder with these initials behind our names. Its naive to think otherwise.

Your osteopathic degree will not stop you? Well that depends where you want to go and what you want to do. It will certainly stop you for many things.

Alright, please come back here when you have matched ortho onc. If you arent military, and have matched a semi-impressive hospital I will fly to wherever you are, take you out for a nice dinner, and buy you drinks. 🙄

Great post Orthojoe. 👍.

/whining about being a DO (... seriously, guys!)

You proved again that you are just too pre-med. Talking about DO programs, paths, struggles without even starting school yet is quite frankly silly. Again, you dont know much until you've actually started. This includes quality of education, struggles, and bias.

Anyway, im doing arguing with a pre-med. It would be like a high school student trying to tell you what college is like

 

[DrBumblebee]

You proved again that you are just too pre-med. Talking about DO programs, paths, struggles without even starting school yet is quite frankly silly. Again, you dont know much until you've actually started. This includes quality of education, struggles, and bias.

Anyway, im doing arguing with a pre-med. It would be like a high school student trying to tell you what college is like

I think you either have scattered plans for, or don't know what to do in medicine in your future.

There's nothing wrong being proud of becoming a DO, whereas in your case, it's very confusing: you're belittling the DO education and AOA programs although still aren't quitting it. Why? 😕

MD/DO is just the same degree name for me and many others. It'd allow me to practice medicine legally as a "physician/doctor" in the US. Period.

Once more, I'm kindly insisting on that you should quit DO if you feel yourself so "desperate" in medicine being as a DO (well, if you're or gonna really be one, though 😎.)

Let's stay on topic of this thread from this point forward and stop arguing about your setbacks in medicine. There're (and will be) many DOs, who are (and will be) very successful, happy, and wealthy physicians in the US.

 

[valkener]

DO's have matched derm at mayo, frankly there is no conrete ceiling for DO's. I agree with the post above, quit whining and work hard, anything is possible

 

[sylvanthus]

DO's have matched derm at mayo, frankly there is no conrete ceiling for DO's. I agree with the post above, quit whining and work hard, anything is possible

However this is an example of outliers. This is not the norm, but who are we kidding? Everyone on SDn is the exception!

Going in blindly optomistic is setting oneself up for disappointment. By all means shoot for the stars but have a backup plan and realize being a DO is a handicap.

 

[Orthojoe]

However this is an example of outliers. This is not the norm, but who are we kidding? Everyone on SDn is the exception!

Going in blindly optomistic is setting oneself up for disappointment. By all means shoot for the stars but have a backup plan and realize being a DO is a handicap.

love the "intent to inflame" DO is handicap statement. No one said to go in blindly optimistic.. we said work hard, be creative and find a solution while stopping the whiny attitude.

Matching at MAYO is an outlier for MDs and not the norm as well. It takes a phenom applicant in either mode of medicine.

Backup plans are for those who quit after failing the first time.. its a mantra shoved into our brains by our academic counselors because having a non matched student looks bad. Why in the heck would I want to take a career that is my second choice and be miserable. I was ortho or bust man, Ready, Fire, AIM!!! -- i could see having a "backup plan" if you aren't fully committed or like two different fields

in the immortal words of Hannibal (the carthaginian general) "if there is no way, I will make it."

I by no means am an exception.. I just have a positive attitude and get creative when problems arise.

 

[Akail]

However this is an example of outliers. This is not the norm, but who are we kidding? Everyone on SDn is the exception!

Going in blindly optomistic is setting oneself up for disappointment. By all means shoot for the stars but have a backup plan and realize being a DO is a handicap.

love the "intent to inflame" DO is handicap statement.

I don't think sylvanthus meant to inflame; he was being genuine. Saying you're a DO on an application ranges from being a nonfactor (primary care residencies) to a huge negative (traditionally more competitive residencies) in the eyes of an ACGME PD, depending on the field. Work hard and try to do what you want, but there are absolutely programs out there where the PD will stop reading your application the second he realizes you're a DO without considering any other part of your application. Not saying if it's right or wrong, just the way it is. If it really offends you then my advice is to work hard, make something of yourself and prove them wrong.

 

[sylvanthus]

love the "intent to inflame" DO is handicap statement. No one said to go in blindly optimistic.. we said work hard, be creative and find a solution while stopping the whiny attitude.

Matching at MAYO is an outlier for MDs and not the norm as well. It takes a phenom applicant in either mode of medicine.

Backup plans are for those who quit after failing the first time.. its a mantra shoved into our brains by our academic counselors because having a non matched student looks bad. Why in the heck would I want to take a career that is my second choice and be miserable. I was ortho or bust man, Ready, Fire, AIM!!! -- i could see having a "backup plan" if you aren't fully committed or like two different fields

in the immortal words of Hannibal (the carthaginian general) "if there is no way, I will make it."

I by no means am an exception.. I just have a positive attitude and get creative when problems arise.

I had a backup plan and I can assure you I did not fail. It is good to be optimistic, but also realistic. Dont pretend you are an authority on the ACGME world when you matched AOA and did 2 interviews on the MD side.

 

[MrBeauregard]

Ready, Fire, AIM!!! --

Honestly, who fires and then aims?

 

[Orthojoe]

Ditto my friend. We are neither the authority or the end all be all but merely expressing our two opinions.

No need to get personal or inflamed. But I'm hella proud of my AOA Ortho match and hella proud of interviewing at two Ortho MD programs when people with the DO "reality" idea said it wasn't possible. My surgical chair told me many times I was waiting money and hopel So yea I know a bit about fighting an uphill battle and the difficulties of DO, but no need to shy away from it.

And yea i chose AOA. You may find that hard to believe and I'm sure you wont but the surgical experience was hand and foot(pun intended) above the allopathic programs i interviewed at (Mayo/AZ). Yes their didactics/research/board scores/name recognition was better.. but watching the seniors operate was night and day - (ive discussed this extensively on other posts, I think 5-10 years post residency its a wash). Surgical procedure logs between the two types of resident heavily favors the AOA programs .. again limited to my own experience n=1 as you noted before.

i think when it comes down to it, you and I are splitting hairs. Hard to portray accurate opinions on this format.

 

[Orthojoe]

Honestly, who fires and then aims?

its a motivational adage for those unable to "pull the trigger" for fear of missing ..

come one now, parables are the best way to teach 🙂 .. it was easter.

 

[JW08]

1) For example, I came to love heme/onc and the treatments associated with it. I would kill to do Radiation Oncology now. Can I? Hell no, not as a DO.

One student from RVU matched into RadOnc this year.... if you love it, find a way to get there

 

[kedrin]

UNT HSC TCOM https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa...3125&spn=24.058206,62.402344&z=4&source=embed

Ortho at Mayo amongst other great match results..

 

[Textbookversion]

UNT HSC TCOM https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa...3125&spn=24.058206,62.402344&z=4&source=embed

Ortho at Mayo amongst other great match results..

Am I reading the correctly as ortho at the REAL mayo? That's kind of... surprising. Your google map skills leave something to be desired (no hospitals indicated...). I mean it does say Rochester, Minnesota on there... but who knows sometimes these things get lost in translation. "I matched at Mayo" which means "I matched at satellite campus X" gets translated into "I matched at the mothership." Very very common in DO match threads for matches to be waaaaaay overstated.