MD vs. DO thread-- Final Resting Place

[JaggerPlate]

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How do you know that? Have you worked as a physician? Have you talked to other physician as a physician? One of my closest friend who works at HOAG hospital in Newport Beach California as a MD told me that his chief MD stated specifically that they'll never hire a DO in his department. Throughout his career he's met several MDs of high positions in hospitals state that. You don't think that'll affect you as a DO if you ever wanted to work at hospitals which had MDs with such opinions, whether it be fair or unfair?

The DO I shadowed stated that there are issues at times because she's a DO.

So, no one really cares, eh?

I work in an emergency room at the UCLA Santa Monica hospital and the Director of Emergency Med (ie the Chief) is a DO. The thing about hospitals, which pisses me off, is that they don't put DO into their system to identify what you are in the hospital (attending, nurse, volunteer etc ...) only MD, so many of the doctors there who I know for a fact are DOs have MD on their namebadge. It really depends on what department you are talking about at this hospital ... this douche said he wouldn't hire a DO, not that one wouldn't ever work at the hospital.

 

[AllThatIsGreen]

You heard an MD say they won't hire DO's in their program?

Hmm... (hypothetically) I can think of MDs who won't hire "blacks" or "hispanics" at their hospitals because of whatever personal biases they have.

As it has been repeated previously, the distinction will extinguish in the future as osteopathic schools become more marketable. I don't think we need more DO schools, but we do need more really good DO schools.



Besides Dr. Kirby, another great physician I know of...
http://www.cornellphysicians.com/sagauthier/biography.html

 

[travoltage]

You heard an MD say they won't hire DO's in their program?

Hmm... (hypothetically) I can think of MDs who won't hire "blacks" or "hispanics" at their hospitals because of whatever personal biases they have.

As it has been repeated previously, the distinction will extinguish in the future as osteopathic schools become more marketable. I don't think we need more DO schools, but we do need more really good DO schools.



Besides Dr. Kirby, another great physician I know of...
http://www.cornellphysicians.com/sagauthier/biography.html

i totally agree with you, i know plenty of exceptional universities that don't have a medical program, so its up to the AOA to start marketing to these schools

otherwise, i know of a couple of DO's who are on the board directors of allopathic university hospitals, they all tell me there is no prejudice toward DO vs MD, that they never even thought about that....their all physicians with one goal in mind, now they said that sometimes when they were starting out (some 20yrs ago) as DO's, they said not everyone knew what a DO was so it was more difficult but now days it makes no difference they said

 

[medhacker]

More schools w/o more residencies [ALL SPECIALTIES] is suicide

No good 👎

 

[medhacker]

If any DO experiences labor discrimination and puts up with it, then it is her/his own fault.

Laws are in place to sue successfully should one be ever discriminated - plenty of successful precedents too.

But if you take it silently, then no one else is going to enforce your rights.

 

[VALSALVA]

personally, i thought that was a given...

We're trained to become physicians, NOT human beings.

Definitely not a given...not even close. The quality spectrum for docs is amazingly broad and probably mirrors the spectrum for pre-meds in terms of intelligence and overall work ethic. To imply that if someone just makes it though med school and residency and, therefore, they are just as competent as the next guy(or gal) is wrong. With that being said, there are plenty of HORRIBLE doctors out there.
Like I said in a previous post, most docs gain their reputations rather quickly once they settle at a particular hospital or institution. It's not like, "Well he has the degree so he/she must be competent." Nothing like that at all. It doesn't matter whether you've got the MD or the DO...if you're make good clinical judgments, you'll be quickly identified as a doctor other doctor's can trust!

 

[travoltage]

Definitely not a given...not even close. The quality spectrum for docs is amazingly broad and probably mirrors the spectrum for pre-meds in terms of intelligence and overall work ethic. To imply that if someone just makes it though med school and residency and, therefore, they are just as competent as the next guy(or gal) is wrong. With that being said, there are plenty of HORRIBLE doctors out there.
Like I said in a previous post, most docs gain their reputations rather quickly once they settle at a particular hospital or institution. It's not like, "Well he has the degree so he/she must be competent." Nothing like that at all. It doesn't matter whether you've got the MD or the DO...if you're make good clinical judgments, you'll be quickly identified as a doctor other doctor's can trust!

well said, every industry has its good and bads, i agree with you..i think your peers are who will judge you

 

[Valejo]

That said, if given the opportunity to choose between an allopathic or osteopathic degree, why not choose the osteopathic? I'm currently a first year student who chose DO over MD and have never looked back. Upon graduation, I will be granted the same rights and privileges as an MD. Additionally, by choosing the DO route, I have availed myself to taking both the USMLE and COMLEX boards, opening up possibilities to pursue residency programs in either the DO or the MD universe, something that can't be said for MD programs. DO training is more extensive in the realm of patient contact through Osteopathic manipulation. If your goal is to provide the best possible care to patients, then why not be as completely trained as you possibly can be? Pain management is huge in any specialization and, fortunately for DOs, nobody is equipped enough to handle it better. The DO degree can take you as far as your heart desires. I see no reason it should hold anybody back. If an advocate of the MD argues that DOs are not real doctors, or are, in some capacity, "less", then their argument is one of ignorance, and who wants to be the patient of an ignorant doctor?

Would I ever chose one doctor over another based on their degree? Probably not. Both degrees earned are respected in the medical profession. However, in my honest, humble (and probably slightly biased) opinion, I feel that upon graduation, I will be sufficiently prepared to enter into whichever residency I was accepted and I'm confident that I will have an incredible number of tools to help my patients completely and compassionately.

 

[Faze2]

Those instances are pretty few and far-between. My uncle, who is a microbiologist at Stanford's medical school is one of the people who is pushing me to DO school. His buddy, who is an oncologist MD/PhD (educated at Stanford, former professor at UPenn medical school, currently doing biotech/pharm stuff) also suggested the DO route, at a time when I didn't even know what a DO was. He also told me that he thought PCOM was every bit as good as UPenn when it came to educating physicians. That's pretty high praise coming from someone who would know.

I will identify the few programs who won't hire a DO and stay clear of them. I'm really not worried.

yep. pretty much. I have also met several UPenn, Temple, Drexel, and Jefferson doctors, I live in Philly, that put PCOM at the same level if not above many of the MD schools as far as the residents they have trained. They stressed time and again that it depends on the student, not the degree, (or the school for that matter), and that a lot of their PCOM residents have surpased their MD counterparts. As far as that guy in Cali that won't hire a DO, I say **** him, he's obviously an a**hole and I wouldn't want to work for someone as stupid and as close minded as him.

 

[HillMill]

Amen to Valejo...

 

[sexyman]

As far as that guy in Cali that won't hire a DO, I say **** him, he's obviously an a**hole and I wouldn't want to work for someone as stupid and as close minded as him.

well said

 

[aspiringDO]

I am currently a bio major looking to pursue medical school,I love the philosophies and the certain practices of Osteopathic medicine(OMM) but I am still not sure if I should go an Allopathic or Osteopathic route. I think both have great aspects about them but I am really unsure. The only thing I am truly sure of is that I want to be a physician to help people and use the sciences in my daily life to combat medical problems with patients. So if anyone could offer any advice on either side or why they chose what I would really appreciate it! Thanks!
(I am posting this in both forums! sorry I didn't know where to place it)

 

[EEL08]

I think your SDN name answers that question. 😉

 

[Bacchus]

This has been discussed ad nauseum. Zipmedic, I know you read this forum 😉. I think you need to write an obligatory post for leaving this in pre-osteo and not pre-allo. 😛

 

[tyE]

im having the same thought process as you, I like the philosophies of DO but im worried about some of the negatives I hear, such as practicing internationally and such.

 

[happygirl3]

I am currently a bio major looking to pursue medical school,I love the philosophies and the certain practices of Osteopathic medicine(OMM) but I am still not sure if I should go an Allopathic or Osteopathic route. I think both have great aspects about them but I am really unsure. The only thing I am truly sure of is that I want to be a physician to help people and use the sciences in my daily life to combat medical problems with patients. So if anyone could offer any advice on either side or why they chose what I would really appreciate it! Thanks!
(I am posting this in both forums! sorry I didn't know where to place it)

If you hope to become a physician that wants to really know your patients and work in a partnership with them toward improving their health, DO might be well suited for you. Not to say that MDs don't want to get to know their patients, but this is a great emphasis in the DO education) OMM is just a small part of what distinguishes a DO from an MD, and not all DOs practice OMM. It is something that DOs learn in addition to the basic medical education that MDs receive, and you may or may not use it to treat your patients. I worked with a DO for two years and he didn't practice it all too often, but in his empathetic and catered approach to patients, it was evident where he got his education... As a DO you would have the same knowledge and skill, but while in medical school, you will be taught to treat patients more as people,rather than organs, tissues and bones... do some more research to learn about the profession 🙂

 

[Lokhtar]

Don't buy into the AOA propaganda: there is no difference once you're out in the real world. I'd rather have a physician who treats me as tissues, bones, and organs because teddy bears and sunshine don't cure diseases. Thankfully, DO's treat patients the same as MDs. I've shadowed and worked with both types of physicians - there is no difference in their clinical skills or people skills. It's absolutely absurd to imply that MDs, on average, care less about patients, and just as absurd to imply that DOs have a lesser grasp on the science of medicine.

 

[J1515]

As a DO you would have the same knowledge and skill, but while in medical school, you will be taught to treat patients more as people,rather than organs, tissues and bones...

Yeah, the first time I went to an MD I was greatly offended when he walked into the room and said "Hi Pancreas, what brings you in today?"

Don't believe anything you hear. The education for both is exactly the same, with the addition of OMM for DOs.

 

[lacesoutdan]

Don't buy into the AOA propaganda: there is no difference once you're out in the real world. I'd rather have a physician who treats me as tissues, bones, and organs because teddy bears and sunshine don't cure diseases. Thankfully, DO's treat patients the same as MDs. I've shadowed and worked with both types of physicians - there is no difference in their clinical skills or people skills. It's absolutely absurd to imply that MDs, on average, care less about patients, and just as absurd to imply that DOs have a lesser grasp on the science of medicine.

Word.

OMM is just a small part of what distinguishes a DO from an MD

Actually, in terms of material taught it's the only thing that distinguishes a DO school from a MD school.

 

[spicedmanna]

Don't believe anything you hear. The education for both is exactly the same, with the addition of OMM for DOs.

True, at least in my experience. The farther along I go, the more the two seem to be the same.

 

[DrWBD]

If you hope to become a physician that wants to really know your patients and work in a partnership with them toward improving their health, DO might be well suited for you. Not to say that MDs don't want to get to know their patients, but this is a great emphasis in the DO education) OMM is just a small part of what distinguishes a DO from an MD, and not all DOs practice OMM. It is something that DOs learn in addition to the basic medical education that MDs receive, and you may or may not use it to treat your patients. I worked with a DO for two years and he didn't practice it all too often, but in his empathetic and catered approach to patients, it was evident where he got his education... As a DO you would have the same knowledge and skill, but while in medical school, you will be taught to treat patients more as people,rather than organs, tissues and bones... do some more research to learn about the profession 🙂

Another pre-med who thinks they know what they are talking about. 🙄

Seriously, to aspiringDO, unless you REALLY want to incorporate OMT into your practice, there is no reason to pick an osteopathic school over an MD program. The nonsense about DOs being 'closer' to their patients is just that - nonsense propagated by the American Osteopathic Association, mainly to justify the existence of a separate medical system since a majority of their practitioners do not, in fact, utilize OMT.

Giving a damn about your patients is not something that a medical school, MD or DO, can teach you. You care about your patients by being a decent human being, not by taking a class.

 

[spicedmanna]

The only thing I am truly sure of is that I want to be a physician to help people and use the sciences in my daily life to combat medical problems with patients.

This might seem sacrilegious, but I think it is best to apply to both allopathic and osteopathic medical schools to broaden your options, unless you are absolutely sure that you want to learn OMM. Attend the program that fits you well and that you think would prepare you the best for residency. In essence, medical school is a vehicle for residency, where you learn the real practice of medicine.

 

[sunny1]

So then....if you are asked in an interview, "Why DO?" -- do you give them the simple truth in a nice way or are you supposed to give a mildly romantic schpiel about ostepathic medicine? Just curious.

 

[Jpc984]

So then....if you are asked in an interview, "Why DO?" -- do you give them the simple truth in a nice way or are you supposed to give a mildly romantic schpiel about ostepathic medicine? Just curious.

I gave a real life analogy of why the philosophy is an important part of medicine.

 

[superfan56]

Another pre-med who thinks they know what they are talking about. 🙄

Seriously, to aspiringDO, unless you REALLY want to incorporate OMT into your practice, there is no reason to pick an osteopathic school over an MD program. The nonsense about DOs being 'closer' to their patients is just that - nonsense propagated by the American Osteopathic Association, mainly to justify the existence of a separate medical system since a majority of their practitioners do not, in fact, utilize OMT.

Giving a damn about your patients is not something that a medical school, MD or DO, can teach you. You care about your patients by being a decent human being, not by taking a class.

interesting take on things here.

 

[osli]

Interview at all schools you think you might be interested in, both MD and DO. See what your acceptances look like. Confirm the one that you find the best fit for you (location, cost, curriculum, perceived quality of education, fit for specialties that may interest you, connections (home residency programs, good rotation options, etc.), reputation, facilities, etc.)

A particular DO school on your list may have certain benefits of being a DO school (curriculum, rotation options, location, etc.) and certain disadvantages (cost, reputation, connection, who knows). Decide what is important to you, not to us.

The complicating factor is the often high non-refundable deposits for some DO schools (which I personally think is a load of crap). Try to get your applications in early - especially MD, so that you will be able to evaluate as many possibilities as you can before having to make a decision on whether to submit a deposit before a deadline or not.

 

[Saregamapadanis]

DO or MD advice?
If you get into harvard, yale, or john hopkins, cornell etc, I would suggest you choose those schools.


Otherwise, go where they "accept" you.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I'm in the same boat. I like all the voodoo and herbal treatments of osteopathic medicine, but I'm not too sure about some of the evidence-based medicine. Can someone here put my mind at ease?

 

[DocRawk]

As has already been stated above, the only difference is OMM. The philosophy stuff is so much garbage, and truly comes down to who you are as a human being. I've been through a dozen PCP's looking for one that does more than spend 5 minutes with me and then send the nurse in to tell me what is gonna happen. Two of the one's I had the worst experiences with were DO's...one of which I saw for three years and only saw the NP (that's a no no in TX, have to see the actual doc at least once per year). Honestly, the DO I'm shadowing is the first one I've actually liked as a human being, and he also happens to spend quite a bit of time educating his patients on their illness and the logic behind the prescribed treatment. I chose DO specifically for OMM. Intending to go into rural FP had a bit of weight in my decision as well. DO NOT go DO because they have a pretty philosophy. It's YOUR philosophy that really matters.

 

[sexyman]

How far along are you in this process? The MCAT tends to be a humbling experience for most people. If you have already aced it and have a stellar GPA then maybe this is something to start thinking about. If not take it one step at a time.

DO vs. MD shouldn't really be on the radar yet if you aren't already filling out applications in my opinion.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I am currently a bio major looking to pursue medical school,I love the philosophies and the certain practices of Osteopathic medicine(OMM) but I am still not sure if I should go an Allopathic or Osteopathic route. I think both have great aspects about them but I am really unsure. The only thing I am truly sure of is that I want to be a physician to help people and use the sciences in my daily life to combat medical problems with patients. So if anyone could offer any advice on either side or why they chose what I would really appreciate it! Thanks!
(I am posting this in both forums! sorry I didn't know where to place it)

I think the biggest struggle in your career thus far is your failure to grasp the concept of the search function ...

 

[BCLumas]

What is with all of these threads popping up in pre-allo and pre-osteo all of the sudden?

 

[endocardium]

I think the biggest struggle in your career thus far is your failure to grasp the concept of the search function ...

 

[endocardium]

What is with all of these threads popping up in pre-allo and pre-osteo all of the sudden?

I've been lurking for a while; it's seasonal. 'Tis the season. 😉

 

[BCLumas]

I've been lurking for a while; it's seasonal. 'Tis the season. 😉

I suppose...

 

[endocardium]

I suppose...

Don't worry about it and don't waste your time over it. Just direct them to the FAQ's and to the search feature.

There are exceptions, but every year about this time, when folks aren't getting interviews at allopathic medical schools, there is a sudden interest in osteopathic medicine.

 

[BCLumas]

I wish that medical schools actually tested you on the philosophy of their particular practice. I can just imagine the number of people who walk into an interview room where they ask "so what exactly is OMM?"

/rant

 

[Pansit]

What is with all of these threads popping up in pre-allo and pre-osteo all of the sudden?

ppl are starting to get MD rejections and reality is sinking and they are now turning to the DO route...like someone else said...its seasonal. It peaks around Jan/Feb when many start to get even more desperate as they get more and more rejections....

 

[scpod]

As no new information has come to light, I think I'll add this to the growing, but already extensive, Pre-Osteo MD vs DO knowledge database

 

[BCLumas]

I did not want to scroll through the 7 pages to see if my old posts were in there, so I will repost my large posts for all of those DO-hating pre-allos to read. Have fun reading!


EDIT: I am not saying that ALL pre-allos hate DOs, I'm just saying that this thread is for those particular pre-allos that do hate DOs. It wouldn't make sense to be a pre-osteo and hate DOs.. would it? >.>a

 

[BCLumas]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica] First of all, I would like to address what Osteopathy really is. "Osteopathic medicine provides all of the benefits of modern medicine including prescription drugs, surgery, and the use of technology to diagnose disease and evaluate injury. It also offers the added benefit of hands-on diagnosis and treatment through a system of therapy known as osteopathic manipulative medicine. Osteopathic medicine emphasizes helping each person achieve a high level of wellness by focusing on health promotion and disease prevention." That was taken from (http://www.aacom.org/about/osteomed/Pages/default.aspx) if you would like some additional reading.

As you can see, Osteopathy is not simply a holistic approach to medicine. It is not an MD with extra training. They are physicians, exactly like an MD. They go through the same schooling, the same residency/fellowship programs, and can work below/beside/above MDs in every medical setting. What is the difference, then? The philosophy.

Osteopathy is centered around the whole-body approach. "DOs are trained to look at the whole person from their first days of medical school, which means they see each person as more than just a collection of organ systems and body parts that may become injured or diseased." This is different from the widely-known Allopathic (MD) approach to medicine. Their differences in their title (MD versus DO) signify their differences in patient philosophy and not quality of care.

What type of training does a physician undergo? Both MDs and DOs take classes in Embryology, Histology, Anatomy, Physiology, Pharmacology, Pathology, Oncology, Biochemistry, Molecular Biology, and Clinical Care, just to name a few. While some schools teach the material in different ways, the information taught in consistent throughout all of the medical colleges across the nation. There is a difference in training, however. All of the Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (COMs) across the country are required to teach a class known as Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine (OMM).

OMM "involves using the hands to diagnose, treat, and prevent illness or injury. Using OMM, [an] osteopathic physician (D.O.) will move [the] muscles and joints using techniques including stretching, gentle pressure and resistance." This, again, is another philosophical approach to patient care that Allopathic (MD) physicians do not employ. Does this mean that all DOs will use OMM in their practice? No. I cannot say with any certainty how many physicians actually employ OMM in their practice. If you are curious if your DO uses that training, ask him/her. I am sure they will be more than happy to explain this to you in better detail.

What is the point of having two types, then? Philosophy. Allopathic medicine is not for everyone, and neither is Osteopathic medicine. Thousands of DOs recieve their medical degree (DO) every year, providing a slight ease to the physician shortage we have in this country. They are equally as capable, important, and willing to treat and serve the medical need that we have.
.

 

[JackDanielMD]

I'm looking for published research articles on the following:

A) Difference of salary per specialty based on MD/DO distiction
b) Patient satisfaction based on MD/DO distinction by specialty
c) Physician job satisfaction based on MD/DO distinction by specialty
d) MD/DO first three choice residency match rates
e) MD/DO residency match rate...numbers of each applied / how many of each got it
f) percentage of allopathic residency slots filled by DOs

 

[MaximusD]

I'm looking for published research articles on the following:

A) Difference of salary per specialty based on MD/DO distiction
b) Patient satisfaction based on MD/DO distinction by specialty
c) Physician job satisfaction based on MD/DO distinction by specialty
d) MD/DO first three choice residency match rates
e) MD/DO residency match rate...numbers of each applied / how many of each got it
f) percentage of allopathic residency slots filled by DOs

good luck and gtfo

 

[nlax30]

I'm looking for published research articles on the following:

A) Difference of salary per specialty based on MD/DO distiction
b) Patient satisfaction based on MD/DO distinction by specialty
c) Physician job satisfaction based on MD/DO distinction by specialty
d) MD/DO first three choice residency match rates
e) MD/DO residency match rate...numbers of each applied / how many of each got it
f) percentage of allopathic residency slots filled by DOs

A) There is none

B) -D) Probably not going to find much if anything on these

E)- F) I'm sure out there somewhere, may be tricky to track down.

Are you looking for research articles looking at these "issues" or just trying to find the numbers/stats?

 

[abadri421]

"It's the same profession, just different degrees." I think this quote says it perfectly..end of discussion..

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=477261

i thought this thread was very amusing and quite hilarious to say the least..im not mocking the concept but rather the whole DO joking regarding residencies in voodoo etc..i was dying lol

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'm looking for published research articles on the following:

A) Difference of salary per specialty based on MD/DO distiction
b) Patient satisfaction based on MD/DO distinction by specialty
c) Physician job satisfaction based on MD/DO distinction by specialty
d) MD/DO first three choice residency match rates
e) MD/DO residency match rate...numbers of each applied / how many of each got it
f) percentage of allopathic residency slots filled by DOs

www.google.com .... I've heard they are good!!

 

[gasapple]

I'm looking for published research articles on the following:

A) Difference of salary per specialty based on MD/DO distiction
b) Patient satisfaction based on MD/DO distinction by specialty
c) Physician job satisfaction based on MD/DO distinction by specialty
d) MD/DO first three choice residency match rates
e) MD/DO residency match rate...numbers of each applied / how many of each got it
f) percentage of allopathic residency slots filled by DOs

This guy has been using too much of his own product.
In addition, almost every thread from this source has been locked by the mods.
I call TROLL.

 

[BCLumas]

I'm looking for published research articles on the following:

A) Difference of salary per specialty based on MD/DO distiction
b) Patient satisfaction based on MD/DO distinction by specialty
c) Physician job satisfaction based on MD/DO distinction by specialty
d) MD/DO first three choice residency match rates
e) MD/DO residency match rate...numbers of each applied / how many of each got it
f) percentage of allopathic residency slots filled by DOs

Ever tried looking own your own? Seriously. Go away.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Let's not jump to conclusions folks....
maybe the poster is actually interested in data instead of just listening to rhetoric & propaganda.

To the poster, like others have suggested, I don't know of any publications that nicely lay out the issues you're interested in, so you'll need to synthesize from different sources:

Journal of the American Osteopathic Association, A research publication specific to DOs.
Osteopathic Match program.
National Resident Matching Program data.
Charting Outcomes in the Match.

Hope this helps. If you find anything interesting, let everyone know.

 

[gasapple]

Might I direct to the OP post history and "contributions". I smell a ride.
I'm not trying to be offensive, I only deal in jest. 😀

Let's not jump to conclusions folks....
maybe the poster is actually interested in data instead of just listening to rhetoric & propaganda.

To the poster, like others have suggested, I don't know of any publications that nicely lay out the issues you're interested in, so you'll need to synthesize from different sources:

Journal of the American Osteopathic Association, A research publication specific to DOs.
Osteopathic Match program.
National Resident Matching Program data.
Charting Outcomes in the Match.

Hope this helps. If you find anything interesting, let everyone know.