Mental health issues and secondaries

[Franzliszt1]

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Dear SDN,

Hope you all are doing well. What is the general wisdom about invoking experiences with my own mental health on a short secondary essay about "obstacles" or "challenges"ect..? Would I be better off discussing financial difficulties? Any and all opinions are appreciated.

 

[Goro]

It's risky unless you have a long track record of good academics. Med school is a furnace.

 

[RandomChance]

I would avoid it. The school is taking a gamble on you as a student - and it's probably best to not lower your Vegas odds.

 

[ciestar]

#1 reason med schools lose students is due to mental health. Trust me on this, med school has a funny way of making every issue you’ve ever had resurface and I 100% get why schools can be weary with students with a history of mental health issues.

 

[deleted647690]

It's risky unless you have a long track record of good academics. Med school is a furnace.

Is there any situation where you think it'd be okay to discuss these issues? What if you wanted to use them to explain why you had time off? Personally, I feel that anxiety and depression are more common than people realize. Hopefully admission officers would be able to relate and empathize.

 

[Goro]

Is there any situation where you think it'd be okay to discuss these issues? What if you wanted to use them to explain why you had time off? Personally, I feel that anxiety and depression are more common than people realize. Hopefully admission officers would be able to relate and empathize.

We're not doing you any favors by admitting you if you can't handle medical school. That's why we need evidence of that ability to perform well academically

 

[ciestar]

Is there any situation where you think it'd be okay to discuss these issues? What if you wanted to use them to explain why you had time off? Personally, I feel that anxiety and depression are more common than people realize. Hopefully admission officers would be able to relate and empathize.

They’re very aware of the statistics of prevalence of depression/anxiety. About 25% of medical students end up depressed at some point in med school and ~11% experience suicidal ideation. Schools have resources to help these students. However, if they think there is a chance you can’t hack it, they might not admit you.

 

[deleted647690]

We're not doing you any favors by admitting you if you can't handle medical school. That's why we need evidence of that ability to perform well academically

Ah, but what about if you do have the evidence that you can perform well academically? Do you think it would still be a bad idea to mention mental health issues because it would be stigmatized, or could you include it as part of your "story"?

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

Ah, but what about if you do have the evidence that you can perform well academically? Do you think it would still be a bad idea to mention mental health issues because it would be stigmatized, or could you include it as part of your "story"?

Speaking for myself, one of the reasons I get concerned when students talk about medical health issues is that I know depression is not a one-time thing. For many people it is a life-long battle with ebbs and flows, and for many the problem rears its head during the most stressful times (medical school being amongst the more stressful). I certainly empathize with your struggles, but I also had someone in the class above me commit suicide after battling depression. I've had classmates take time off and one who didn't return due to depression. You can't guarantee that you aren't that risk. You can't talk about mental health as something in your past that you've conquered because that's not how it works.
Again, just one mini-adcom member's opinion, but I don't think I'm alone.

 

[deleted647690]

Speaking for myself, one of the reasons I get concerned when students talk about medical health issues is that I know depression is not a one-time thing. For many people it is a life-long battle with ebbs and flows, and for many the problem rears its head during the most stressful times (medical school being amongst the more stressful). I certainly empathize with your struggles, but I also had someone in the class above me commit suicide after battling depression. I've had classmates take time off and one who didn't return due to depression. You can't guarantee that you aren't that risk. You can't talk about mental health as something in your past that you've conquered because that's not how it works.
Again, just one mini-adcom member's opinion, but I don't think I'm alone.

Thanks for the input. Well I hope that adcoms don't construe my involvement in mental health focused extracurriculars as admitting that I had my own challenges in the past.

Do you think this would happen? Personally, when I go to a conference or talk where someone is talking about mental health issues and they are very passionate about it, I assume they have issues of their own that they struggled with in the past

 

[Walter Raleigh]

@Goro: What if you do have a long track record of good academics - a 3.9+ GPA, say, plus a 520+ MCAT?

 

[Goro]

@Goro: What if you do have a long track record of good academics - a 3.9+ GPA, say, plus a 520+ MCAT?

I think you already know the answer to that.

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

Thanks for the input. Well I hope that adcoms don't construe my involvement in mental health focused extracurriculars as admitting that I had my own challenges in the past.

Do you think this would happen? Personally, when I go to a conference or talk where someone is talking about mental health issues and they are very passionate about it, I assume they have issues of their own that they struggled with in the past

Many advocates get involved because a friend/family member struggled. Others do it because its the right thing to do. Others do it because they need to build ECs to get into med school. I would say it isn't safe to assume speakers are also the afflicted nor will adcoms assume you are/were. If you're asked why you got involved you could say you felt it was an under-resourced area of medicine and found ways to get involved. You decide how much you're willing to open the vault.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Is that "long track record" longer than what is necessary for reinvention - two years of 3.8+ and a 515+ MCAT, if still in school?

 

[Goro]

Is that "long track record" longer than what is necessary for reinvention - two years of 3.8+ and a 515+ MCAT, if still in school?

Not necessarily. If a U- or Nike-swoosh-shaped curve in UG is fine for many schools, then, that's all it takes. This is generally what I refer to when I and others say "long stretch"

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Not necessarily. If a U- or Nike-swoosh-shaped curve in UG is fine for many schools, then, that's all it takes. This is generally what I refer to when I and others say "long stretch"

So: if you wanted to discuss anorexia, say, or self-harm, or suicide attempts and you had a 3.7/516 or better, you'd be in the clear?

 

[Goro]

So: if you wanted to discuss anorexia, say, or self-harm, or suicide attempts and you had a 3.7/516 or better, you'd be in the clear?

Not 100%. These types of things give me pause no matter what.

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

So: if you wanted to discuss anorexia, say, or self-harm, or suicide attempts and you had a 3.7/516 or better, you'd be in the clear?

What is up with your attempts at finding the exact line between acceptance and rejection? There is no such line and nobody can answer these questions of yours with any true predictive value beyond the obvious.

 

[deleted647690]

What is up with your attempts at finding the exact line between acceptance and rejection? There is no such line and nobody can answer these questions of yours with any true predictive value beyond the obvious.

Maybe what he was trying to ask was if @Goro or other adcom members have seen applicants with these kinds of reveals on their applications who still get accepted

 

[deleted647690]

Many advocates get involved because a friend/family member struggled. Others do it because its the right thing to do. Others do it because they need to build ECs to get into med school. I would say it isn't safe to assume speakers are also the afflicted nor will adcoms assume you are/were. If you're asked why you got involved you could say you felt it was an under-resourced area of medicine and found ways to get involved. You decide how much you're willing to open the vault.

The group I am about to become involved with requires that you have experience living with a mental illness and that you are living well in recovery. Based on the name of the group, it would be clear to an adcom that this was the case.

It is a peer support group, so this would suggest that group leaders lived with mental illness themselves.

Is there a safe way I can volunteer with this group and talk about it without implicating myself?

 

[JustaDO]

Is there a safe way I can volunteer with this group and talk about it without implicating myself?

The group I am about to become involved with requires that you have experience living with a mental illness and that you are living well in recovery. Based on the name of the group, it would be clear to an adcom that this was the case. It is a peer support group, so this would suggest that group leaders lived with mental illness themselves.

I'm not sure what is the answer you want. You were advised not to discuss these issues, yet for some reason, you keep on attempting to do so.

If you wish to possibly make your application cycle more difficult, then include the struggles.

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

The group I am about to become involved with requires that you have experience living with a mental illness and that you are living well in recovery. Based on the name of the group, it would be clear to an adcom that this was the case.

It is a peer support group, so this would suggest that group leaders lived with mental illness themselves.

Is there a safe way I can volunteer with this group and talk about it without implicating myself?

I'm not terribly sure which way you can go. You could change the name entirely, just call it "mental health support group" or something like that. It isn't like I'd go digging online to determine whether that existed compared to "survivor of mental illness support group". You also haven't been involved with it as of yet so it can't be that important to have it on your app.

 

[DokterMom]

The group I am about to become involved with requires that you have experience living with a mental illness and that you are living well in recovery. Based on the name of the group, it would be clear to an adcom that this was the case.

It is a peer support group, so this would suggest that group leaders lived with mental illness themselves.

Is there a safe way I can volunteer with this group and talk about it without implicating myself?

If the group were say, Alcoholics Anonymous, listing it as an group you were an active member of would clearly 'out' you as someone who struggled with a drinking problem. If the name of this group makes it clear that you suffered from this illness, then it too would 'out' you.

There are many important and worthwhile activities that, while you might believe in them passionately, are more likely to reduce your chances of admission than help them. (Think Black Lives Matter, NARAL or stridently anti-abortion groups) Sadly, it sounds like this group might be one of them.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

IF you are going to go down this road: it is a perilous one. Tread very carefully. It may be worth mentioning if you've achieved some very noteworthy success - starting a regional or national chapter, or something that's been covered in newspapers like the New York Times. Even then, it's a double-edged sword that could either help you a lot or hurt you. The safest thing would be to leave it off your application entirely.

 

[deleted647690]

I'm not sure what is the answer you want. You were advised not to discuss these issues, yet for some reason, you keep on attempting to do so.

If you wish to possibly make your application cycle more difficult, then include the struggles.

I'm not terribly sure which way you can go. You could change the name entirely, just call it "mental health support group" or something like that. It isn't like I'd go digging online to determine whether that existed compared to "survivor of mental illness support group". You also haven't been involved with it as of yet so it can't be that important to have it on your app.

If the group were say, Alcoholics Anonymous, listing it as an group you were an active member of would clearly 'out' you as someone who struggled with a drinking problem. If the name of this group makes it clear that you suffered from this illness, then it too would 'out' you.

There are many important and worthwhile activities that, while you might believe in them passionately, are more likely to reduce your chances of admission than help them. (Think Black Lives Matter, NARAL or stridently anti-abortion groups) Sadly, it sounds like this group might be one of them.

Thank you guys for your responses, it is appreciated.
I'm not attempting to discuss my mental health issues; I was just wondering if adcoms would question my mental health status if I became involved as a leader of one of these support groups. I have multiple extracurricular activities for my application to med schools at this point, but this opportunity sticks out to me as being the most interesting. I like learning about the biological underlying science of mental illness, and I think it would be great to apply this knowledge to try and help people. It also seems like a great way to further develop myself as an empathetic listener for those who need it.

I am just imagining a situation where an overly curious interviewer sees that I was involved in this organization and then they ask, "Hm, well how were you able to relate to these people? Did you struggle with mental illness at some point?"

And @DokterMom , aren't those groups all political? I'm trying to understand your point. Are you saying that there are too many people that might disagree with what I'm doing?

 

[deleted647690]

Maybe @Goro can say if he's seen a successful applicant who had an activity like this on their application

 

[theKingLT]

I am just imagining a situation where an overly curious interviewer sees that I was involved in this organization and then they ask, "Hm, well how were you able to relate to these people? Did you struggle with mental illness at some point?

Then you would answer honestly and assure them that your problems are behind you, and that you did indeed gain a greater sense of empathy for mental illness from them. This is better than talking about mental illness in terms of the reason for a leave of absence like you discussed earlier in this post, as that kind of situation is exactly what they're trying to avoid in their students.

 

[Med Ed]

I am just imagining a situation where an overly curious interviewer sees that I was involved in this organization and then they ask, "Hm, well how were you able to relate to these people? Did you struggle with mental illness at some point?"

Asking about a personal health issue that is not explicitly disclosed in the application is something that should never happen in an interview.

 

[Goro]

Maybe @Goro can say if he's seen a successful applicant who had an activity like this on their application

We have interviewed people who were in activist groups. Sometime it sets off the radar, if they're too far on the fringe

 

[Walter Raleigh]

We have interviewed people who were in activist groups. Sometime it sets off the radar, if they're too far on the fringe

Ever seen any Earth First! members or other kinds of environmental activists?

 

[Goro]

Ever seen any Earth First! members or other kinds of environmental activists?

Nothing at the level of a terrorist group like EF! We have a dim view of PETA members as well.

There have been a handful of people who were involved in some group that telegraphed that they were more interested in being activists than being doctors. They fare poorly.

 

[DokterMom]

And @DokterMom , aren't those groups all political? I'm trying to understand your point. Are you saying that there are too many people that might disagree with what I'm doing?

The groups I mentioned were groups I could think of off the top of my head, and yes, they happened to all be political. I was just trying to think of 'cause groups' that could have negative repercussions.

Again, AdComs are trying to select applicants who are likely to succeed in their medical school journeys, and sadly, applicants with a history of mental health problems tend to fail at much higher rates than those without.

Assuming you truly do now have the 'tools in your toolbox' to deal with stress and pressure without falling into depression or self-defeating anxiety, your experiences could be helpful to your classmates and future patients. But that's only if you are admitted and make it through successfully -- both of which are made less likely by an admission of prior mental health difficulties.

 

[JustaDO]

I am just imagining a situation where an overly curious interviewer sees that I was involved in this organization and then they ask, "Hm, well how were you able to relate to these people? Did you struggle with mental illness at some point?"

Why would they need to wonder? You literally stated that:

Based on the name of the group, it would be clear to an adcom that this was the case.

And @DokterMom , aren't those groups all political? I'm trying to understand your point. Are you saying that there are too many people that might disagree with what I'm doing?

I believe the point that DoktorMom was making is that memberships in certain groups out there that can cause admissions to raise their eyebrows at you.

For whatever reason, you seemed very invested with going down this path, in spite of many people with far more experience advising you not to do so. If you feel like this is the best move, go for it, it's only your career that is on the line.

 

[oneiroi]

I feel premeds all so good at recognizing every aspect of the game BUT this.

It's 2018, but mental health is still stigmatized, it's still a question for licensing bodies (though a much more ADA friendly question), and medical school/residency has a problem with burnout, depression, and suicide.

What do you stand to gain by broadcasting a clearly polarizing, volatile topic when you can write much safer responses to the diversity question and still get in? Don't you also find it insulting that an admissions body might choose to disqualify you on a personal struggle that's really no one's business but your own? I certainly did, so I wrote about my art.

There's many other, equally salient but safer aspects of your personality that make you diverse.

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

I think you should absolutely feel comfortable talking about mental health struggles that you've overcome, especially for prompts like "obstacles and challenges." Medical schools want authenticity and honesty, and if this is something that's truly in your past but that you grew from, I think it could be a great essay. Just explain how you've overcome it completely and what you've learned from it. Sure, some people struggle with depression/anxiety their whole lives, but plenty of others just have one episode. Depression isn't always chronic, for pete's sake. This is one survivor's opinion: not in medical school yet, but I wrote about my mental health struggles in my master's applications and got into a top 20 program.

You are certainly right that depression isn't always chronic. On the other hand, medicine is a data driven field. A meta-analysis of approx 17k patients (Prevention of Relapse and Recurrence in Adults with Major Depressive Disorder: Systematic Review and Meta-Analyses of Controlled Trials) shows the recurrence rate to be 85% within 10 years of first event if not properly treated/medicated. There is a well known correlation between depression and stress (a well-liked review article: http://hammenlab.psych.ucla.edu/pubs/05stressand.pdf). So typically adcoms make the safer bet. Does that mean you'll definitely be rejected? Of course not! I'm a brand new baby resident who spent a few years on his med school adcomm. But from all I've seen at those meetings and read here, you don't want people to be worried about your ability to handle med school-there's no way to prove it and once the committee gets that worm in their ear...

I've mentioned before-it totally sucks that the system makes people hide their illness. Classmates with Crohns or T1DM or childhood leukemias are applauded for the distance they've traveled. But when someone gets hospitalized for a flare or diabetic crisis the reverberations are very different than when one is hospitalized for attempted/completed suicide.

 

[deleted647690]

Why would they need to wonder? You literally stated that:





I believe the point that DoktorMom was making is that memberships in certain groups out there that can cause admissions to raise their eyebrows at you.

For whatever reason, you seemed very invested with going down this path, in spite of many people with far more experience advising you not to do so. If you feel like this is the best move, go for it, it's only your career that is on the line.

The groups I mentioned were groups I could think of off the top of my head, and yes, they happened to all be political. I was just trying to think of 'cause groups' that could have negative repercussions.

Again, AdComs are trying to select applicants who are likely to succeed in their medical school journeys, and sadly, applicants with a history of mental health problems tend to fail at much higher rates than those without.

Assuming you truly do now have the 'tools in your toolbox' to deal with stress and pressure without falling into depression or self-defeating anxiety, your experiences could be helpful to your classmates and future patients. But that's only if you are admitted and make it through successfully -- both of which are made less likely by an admission of prior mental health difficulties.

I've thought about it a bit, and I'm pretty sure it will be fine as long as I frame it correctly on my application. I will use it to explain my interests in how depression is common in people living with chronic conditions like AIDS.