Multiple acceptances - Do vet schools find out and offer merit to protect yield?

[PreMedMissteps]

If a vet school applicant has 5 acceptances, will those vet schools learn that (like med schools learn that an acceptee holds multiple acceptances)? And if so, WHEN will they find out and then will they likely offer merit to protect yield?

If vet schools don’t learn that a student holds multiple acceptances, is there a way to politely let them know in order to possibly get some merit. Top choice is very expensive. Instate public vet school is MUCH cheaper.

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[Lupin21]

If a vet school applicant has 5 acceptances, will those vet schools learn that (like med schools learn that an acceptee holds multiple acceptances)? And if so, WHEN will they find out and then will they likely offer merit to protect yield?

If vet schools don’t learn that a student holds multiple acceptances, is there a way to politely let them know in order to possibly get some merit. Top choice is very expensive. Instate public vet school is MUCH cheaper.

There are some schools that offer a scholarship to desired applicants. They don't find out about multiple acceptances, but can tell when an applicant would likely have more than one. For the most part though, it doesn't make a difference. Our pool is so very dense, that the loss of one doesn't make or break a class, so it is hard to try and gain leverage. You can always call and ask your schools though. As long as it is done in a tactful manner, I see no reason not to try.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I doubt it would get you anywhere. Any vet school will have throngs of waitlisted applicants behind you who are dying to take your place, so if you don't go to their institution it's no huge loss to them in terms of potential tuition $. They could just pick the next person down the line who is likely to have almost identical stats You're drastically overestimating how much a school would care about one single applicant.

 

[DVMDream]

Just go to you in state public vet school. Even if you could get a scholarship, which probably won't happen, it is unlikely to offset how much you'd save by going in state.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Just go to you in state public vet school. Even if you could get a scholarship, which probably won't happen, it is unlikely to offset how much you'd save by going in state.

I totally agree with your point. I was just thinking that an expensive private vet school must then only end up seating students who either didn’t get a cheaper instate alternative or money isn’t a concern.

Is there any advantage to going to a “bigger name” private $$ vet school?

For example in regards to aid, would Cornell Vet school offer anything to entice a Student away from cheap instate?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I totally agree with your point. I was just thinking that an expensive private vet school must then only end up seating students who either didn’t get a cheaper instate alternative or money isn’t a concern.

Is there any advantage to going to a “bigger name” private $$ vet school?

Over a cheaper in-state school? No. Not considering the salary/debt ratio of this profession.

 

[Lupin21]

I totally agree with your point. I was just thinking that an expensive private vet school must then only end up seating students who either didn’t get a cheaper instate alternative or money isn’t a concern.

Is there any advantage to going to a “bigger name” private $$ vet school?

For example in regards to aid, would Cornell Vet school offer anything to entice a Student away from cheap instate?

The issue for vet med is that there is always someone willing to pay the ridiculous amount required for tuition because it became their dream school. This means that schools can charge as they wish. State schools at least try to keep it at a place where it is the minimum needed to keep the school and faculty/clinicians paid and the doors open with the quality still meeting standards put forth by COE*. (as idiotic as some of it is imo.) In reality, the opportunities are the same across the board for most things, and the diversity comes from extra curriculars and externships to hone your desired path in vet med. There are so many opportunities across schools to connect and share these experiences, that where you go has minimal effect in the long term of your career.

*For In-State OOS is where they try to keep the IS as low as possible.

 

[DVMDream]

Is there any advantage to going to a “bigger name” private $$ vet school?

For example in regards to aid, would Cornell Vet school offer anything to entice a Student away from cheap instate?

To the first question..... No

To the second question..... Highly unlikely

 

[PreMedMissteps]

thank you all. From your answers, it makes me wonder if very expensive vet schools like Cornell and UPenn are filled with students who weren’t accepted elsewhere (which seems unlikely), will borrow excessively for the “name,” or wealthy enough to not care about the costs.

 

[Lupin21]

thank you all. From your answers, it makes me wonder if very expensive vet schools like Cornell and UPenn are filled with students who weren’t accepted elsewhere (which seems unlikely), will borrow excessively for the “name,” or wealthy enough to not care about the costs.

It is a variety of factors. These are still instate for many, and for others, it is sometimes the name. Some may have regional limitations such as family or don't have an IS to apply to. I will always advise to go to the cheapest unless there is a very good reason not to, but the debt is going to be on them. It sucks for our profession and is a large part of mental health issues, but it is hard to see when all you want to do is get in to school.

 

[ajs513]

thank you all. From your answers, it makes me wonder if very expensive vet schools like Cornell and UPenn are filled with students who weren’t accepted elsewhere (which seems unlikely), will borrow excessively for the “name,” or wealthy enough to not care about the costs.

While I do agree with what everyone here is saying, where you to school can have different implications for things like research, but also where you’re steered by the school to go in the future. Penn pretty much breeds specialists. That’s something that, at least on the east coast, is very well known. Others may disagree, but current students all say that, last graduates say that, professors at Penn say that, etc. You can specialize no matter where you go to school, but Penn really tries to create specialists. Other schools like Western focus more on being a GP with really good day-1 practice knowledge. That’s not really the case for Penn. Also as an in-state student, it does cost a little less than a lot of out of state schools.

Edit: Since it seems like I didn’t really make my point clear, I’m NOT saying you should go to a much more expensive school even if there’s a slightly better chance at doing a specific thing after graduation. You can do pretty much anything after graduation that you can do from any other school as long as you get the degree. The name of the school doesn’t matter. My only point was to tell the OP what Penn likes to tell people to convince them to choose them over other schools. Whether it actually makes a difference or not, I don’t know. I can’t find any statistics on which specialists graduated from which school. If anyone can though I’d love to see it.

 

[Caiter92]

While I do agree with what everyone here is saying, where you to school can have different implications for things like research, but also where you’re steered by the school to go in the future. Penn pretty much breeds specialists. That’s something that, at least on the east coast, is very well known. Others may disagree, but current students all say that, last graduates say that, professors at Penn say that, etc. You can specialize no matter where you go to school, but Penn really tries to create specialists. Other schools like Western focus more on being a GP with really good day-1 practice knowledge. That’s not really the case for Penn. Also as an in-state student, it does cost a little less than a lot of out of state schools.

People specialize from all schools. People go GP From all schools. Specializing is way more about networking than where you go to school.

 

[supershorty]

While I do agree with what everyone here is saying, where you to school can have different implications for things like research, but also where you’re steered by the school to go in the future. Penn pretty much breeds specialists. That’s something that, at least on the east coast, is very well known. Others may disagree, but current students all say that, last graduates say that, professors at Penn say that, etc. You can specialize no matter where you go to school, but Penn really tries to create specialists. Other schools like Western focus more on being a GP with really good day-1 practice knowledge. That’s not really the case for Penn. Also as an in-state student, it does cost a little less than a lot of out of state schools.

I mean this in the kindest way possible, but you're not even in vet school yet. You've been giving a lot of advice/saying a lot of things lately that just aren't really based in fact. I get that you're REALLY excited and want to help people, but maybe get a better picture of school by experiencing it before saying some of this stuff.

People specialize from any program, and go the GP route from any program. It's the connections you make during school and during 4th year that matter.

 

[DVMoftheFuture]

While I do agree with what everyone here is saying, where you to school can have different implications for things like research, but also where you’re steered by the school to go in the future. Penn pretty much breeds specialists. That’s something that, at least on the east coast, is very well known. Others may disagree, but current students all say that, last graduates say that, professors at Penn say that, etc. You can specialize no matter where you go to school, but Penn really tries to create specialists. Other schools like Western focus more on being a GP with really good day-1 practice knowledge. That’s not really the case for Penn. Also as an in-state student, it does cost a little less than a lot of out of state schools.

I mean, you can specialize coming out of any school. And going to Penn for some little leg up is in my opinion not worth the extra cost. This is coming from an IS student who chose to go OOS. I'm saving myself like $50,000. At graduation from Penn, an OOS student has about $431,000 of debt with accrued interest. Add to that the internship + residency to specialize, where you probably won't even be able to pay off the interest, and you're pretty much financially screwed for like forever. Even with IBR, the minimum amount you'll end up paying on the loan is like $430,000. Seriously not worth the perceived prestige of Penn. Like, there is no way that makes financial sense over going to an IS school.

Edit: screwed up some numbers - think they're fixed now

 

[JustPaws]

Penn does give large scholarships to some to make it worthwhile.

 

[ajs513]

I mean this in the kindest way possible, but you're not even in vet school yet. You've been giving a lot of advice/saying a lot of things lately that just aren't really based in fact. I get that you're REALLY excited and want to help people, but maybe get a better picture of school by experiencing it before saying some of this stuff.

People specialize from any program, and go the GP route from any program. It's the connections you make during school and during 4th year that matter.

I mean I know a couple of the things I said the other week were wrong and I’ll admit that. But the majority of what I’ve said isn’t. And my comment just now has nothing to do with going to school or not. It’s what Penn markets themselves as. If you ask Penn students and professors why you should choose Penn, a large majority of them will talk about specializing. Like I said, I know you can specialize from any program. I was just telling OP what the draw to Penn is for some people.

 

[ajs513]

I mean, you can specialize coming out of any school. And going to Penn for some little leg up is in my opinion not worth the extra cost. This is coming from an IS student who chose to go OOS. I'm saving myself like $50,000. At graduation from Penn, an OOS student has about $431,000 of debt with accrued interest. Add to that the internship + residency to specialize, where you probably won't even be able to pay off the interest, and you're pretty much financially screwed for like forever. Even with IBR, the minimum amount you'll end up paying on the loan is like $430,000. Seriously not worth the perceived prestige of Penn. Like, there is no way that makes financial sense over going to an IS school.

Edit: screwed up some numbers - think they're fixed now

I know it can add up to a lot of money, and I’m not trying to give excuses to attend Penn over cheaper schools. If cost is a thing as it is for most people, then it doesn’t really make sense. I’m only addressing OP’s question of why people look at a schools like Penn. The majority of applicants aren’t on here to see @SkiOtter saying “GO THE THE CHEAPEST SCHOOL” (which is 99% of the time the right move, I’m sure). So people go with other factors. That’s my only point in saying that. Not to convince people that Penn will make you some super competent uber specialist machine of a doctor or something.

 

[Caiter92]

I mean I know a couple of the things I said the other week were wrong and I’ll admit that. But the majority of what I’ve said isn’t. And my comment just now has nothing to do with going to school or not. It’s what Penn markets themselves as. If you ask Penn students and professors why you should choose Penn, a large majority of them will talk about specializing. Like I said, I know you can specialize from any program. I was just telling OP what the draw to Penn is for some people.

I’m just gonna say it. Penn, Cornell and Davis REALLY like to play up rankings and brag about the vets they produce. But all schools produce great vets. All schools provide an environment where students can specialize. I really doubt the percentage of students specializing from Penn is much different than other schools. Would honestly not be surprised if it’s lower than some other schools with the amount of debt students come out with.

The school may market themselves as a school that produces specialists, but it’s not exclusive to them.

 

[ajs513]

I’m just gonna say it. Penn, Cornell and Davis REALLY like to play up rankings and brag about the vets they produce. But all schools produce great vets. All schools provide an environment where schools where students can specialize. I really doubt the percentage of students specializing from Penn is much different than other schools. Would honestly not be surprised if it’s lower than some other schools with the amount of debt students come out with.

The school may market themselves as a school that produces specialists, but it’s not exclusive to them.

No I totally agree, and I’m not saying Penn is the only school that markets themselves that way or whether or not there’s a larger proportion of specialists that actually come from Penn vs some other schools. That’s just what’s been told to me over and over again by everyone at Penn and everyone who has graduated from Penn. I’m sure it’s true for a lot of other schools as well. But when you go to interview or visit the school and ask “why [x] school,” a lot of schools tell you certain things about them and it’s usually pretty consistent among people at the school. Penn’s thing happens to be that they want people to specialize.

 

[Lupin21]

Penn does give large scholarships to some to make it worthwhile.

That is definitely why it is hard sometimes for the best advice for most to fit all. There is always a bell curve with people on the extreme ends. People who have a very specific set of assets will definitely get rewarded. Relying on that though can be a dangerous game for others.

 

[DVMoftheFuture]

I know it can add up to a lot of money, and I’m not trying to give excuses to attend Penn over cheaper schools. If cost is a thing as it is for most people, then it doesn’t really make sense. I’m only addressing OP’s question of why people look at a schools like Penn. The majority of applicants aren’t on here to see @SkiOtter saying “GO THE THE CHEAPEST SCHOOL” (which is 99% of the time the right move, I’m sure). So people go with other factors. That’s my only point in saying that. Not to convince people that Penn will make you some super competent uber specialist machine of a doctor or something.

Ah that makes more sense. It didn’t come across quite that way in your previous post.

Tangent: One of the things that has always kind of puzzled and fascinated me is that there seems to be a certain subset of schools, including Penn, that a fair number of OOS students kind of gush about as their dream school. I always wonder how that came to be. I know before I started narrowing down my school list based on certain factors, Penn was definitely one of those schools that, for no apparent reason that I can think of, was just better than other schools in my mind. Hadn’t ever visited or worked with clinicians or students from Penn. Just had this general sense in my head.

 

[ajs513]

Ah that makes more sense. It didn’t come across quite that way in your previous post.

Tangent: One of the things that has always kind of puzzled and fascinated me is that there seems to be a certain subset of schools, including Penn, that a fair number of OOS students kind of gush about as their dream school. I always wonder how that came to be. I know before I started narrowing down my school list based on certain factors, Penn was definitely one of those schools that, for no apparent reason that I can think of, was just better than other schools in my mind. Hadn’t ever visited or worked with clinicians or students from Penn. Just had this general sense in my head.

I really think it depends on where you’re from. If you’re from anywhere other than the east coast, Penn doesn’t really carry much weight compared with any other schools that have been around for a long time. In the Philly area though, it’s just what people know. The large majority of vets in the area are Penn graduates, everyone with a pet has gone to a Penn graduate at some point, and they’re the only school that confers a VMD degree so it has some sort of uniqueness even though it’s the exact same degree as a DVM (just in Latin). Penn itself is a very prestigious school aside from the vet school, so it carries that with it. It’s a big-name school around the world, so even if that doesn’t translate over to the vet school, it’s probably why people have this idea that it’s a big thing even if they’ve never been. If Harvard or Yale or Princeton had a vet school, even if it was just a small building with no teaching hospital, people would probably still have the same expectation.

 

[Lupin21]

Ah that makes more sense. It didn’t come across quite that way in your previous post.

Tangent: One of the things that has always kind of puzzled and fascinated me is that there seems to be a certain subset of schools, including Penn, that a fair number of OOS students kind of gush about as their dream school. I always wonder how that came to be. I know before I started narrowing down my school list based on certain factors, Penn was definitely one of those schools that, for no apparent reason that I can think of, was just better than other schools in my mind. Hadn’t ever visited or worked with clinicians or students from Penn. Just had this general sense in my head.

Some of it also has to do with them being older/oldest programs. They have been around the block and have had the time to hone their... well... personalities so to speak. haha

They are great schools. The good news is, they are all good schools if they are AVMA accredited. I will always have criticism of the newer schools but that is necessary for them to improve. Growing pains are a thing. People have to be smart, which means you have to know yourself. You are the ones that have to see through the propaganda and make the best decision for you, both financially and for your perceived career goals. Younger applicants need to realize however that your focus is very likely to shift around as you get to experience all the various options. You may have a natural talent for something you hadn't considered before. Keeping that in mind as well is just one more straw to hold before your back breaks. lol

 

[DVMDream]

Oh goodness, he's not even attended a day and already has the "Pennwe" attitude.....

Just a fair warning, if you're at all interested in specializing the chances you end up at Penn for internship/residency after vet school (since you're attending Penn) is slim.....so you might want to garner some respect for other schools and drop the..... "well at Penn....." statement now

 

[ajs513]

Oh goodness, he's not even attended a day and already has the "Pennwe" attitude.....

Just a fair warning, if you're at all interested in specializing the chances you end up at Penn for internship/residency after vet school is slim.....so you might want to garner some respect for other schools and drop the..... "well at Penn....." statement now

I’m not! I swear! I’m just saying what was told to me when I was there, and what I’ve heard from graduates. I never said I don’t respect other schools any less than Penn. I was just answering OP’s question of why people have this idea of Penn being something different from some other schools. And so I gave them Penn’s pretty much universal opinion on it and the opinion of a lot of doctors in the area.

 

[2018APreVetOdyssey]

If Harvard or Yale or Princeton had a vet school, even if it was just a small building with no teaching hospital, people would probably still have the same expectation.

Fun fact, Harvard did have a vet school from 1882 to 1901 but it closed because it was unable to secure endowment funds.

Oh goodness, he's not even attended a day and already has the "Pennwe" attitude.....

Just a fair warning, if you're at all interested in specializing the chances you end up at Penn for internship/residency after vet school (since you're attending Penn) is slim.....so you might want to garner some respect for other schools and drop the..... "well at Penn....." statement now

So like medical schools, vet schools don't like to keep students for internships and rotations? Or are you just saying that chances are you'll end up elsewhere after matching?

 

[ajs513]

Fun fact, Harvard did have a vet school from 1882 to 1901 but it closed because it was unable to secure endowment funds.

Wow that’s pretty cool. I’m always interested in things like that. I don’t know why, but vet schools that don’t exist anymore give me a sort of alternate universe vibe.

 

[Lupin21]

Fun fact, Harvard did have a vet school from 1882 to 1901 but it closed because it was unable to secure endowment funds.




So like medical schools, vet schools don't like to keep students for internships and rotations? Or are you just saying that chances are you'll end up elsewhere after matching?

Very few schools want you to stay for an internship/residency. A lot of them don't mind if you have done an internship away then come back for a residency, but like you to branch out right out of school.

 

[ajs513]

Very few schools want you to stay for an internship/residency. A lot of them don't mind if you have done an internship away then come back for a residency, but like you to branch out right out of school.

I know this is getting waaaaaay ahead of myself, but this wouldn’t apply to hospitals not affiliated with a university, right? I looked up residency programs and there are some at large hospitals in my area, so would they not care where you went to school?

 

[Lupin21]

I know this is getting waaaaaay ahead of myself, but this wouldn’t apply to hospitals not affiliated with a university, right? I looked up residency programs and there are some at large hospitals in my area, so would they not care where you went to school?

This is veterinary school specific.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

Fun fact, Harvard did have a vet school from 1882 to 1901 but it closed because it was unable to secure endowment funds.




So like medical schools, vet schools don't like to keep students for internships and rotations? Or are you just saying that chances are you'll end up elsewhere after matching?

The match program is extremely competitive for most things and alot of times students will end up elsewhere-especially after a year of rotating internship. I think part of it is networking and it's just good imo to get out of that one school and go somewhere else and experience different environments.

As for the specialists at school I dont know of anyone here that is a Penn graduate. Granted we are a very small subset of sampling. In the end specializing is a very personal choice and definitely not for everyone.

I find the oldest/established vet school debate interesting because Iowa is the oldest vet school but as it currently stands is one of the most movable waitlists oos to be put on. Penn came out 5 years after them. Their reputations I would say are vastly different.

Just my 2 cents but "prestigious" schools and how persay the average person views them are overrated. You can't major in philosophy at my undergrad institution but you can at Yale or Harvard. What job are you going to get with a bachelors degree in philosophy?

 

[ajs513]

Just my 2 cents but "prestigious" schools and how persay the average person views them are overrated. You can't major in philosophy at my undergrad institution but you can at Yale or Harvard. What job are you going to get with a bachelors degree in philosophy?

My friend who went to undergrad with me studied philosophy. The program was ranked third in the country I believe. He used to always boast about that. I asked what he planned on doing after graduation, and his answer was that he would work for a filming company that his brother already worked high up in. He literally studied philosophy because he felt like it. That’s an expensive thing to just feel like doing...

 

[SkiOtter]

I know it can add up to a lot of money, and I’m not trying to give excuses to attend Penn over cheaper schools. If cost is a thing as it is for most people, then it doesn’t really make sense. I’m only addressing OP’s question of why people look at a schools like Penn. The majority of applicants aren’t on here to see @SkiOtter saying “GO THE THE CHEAPEST SCHOOL” (which is 99% of the time the right move, I’m sure). So people go with other factors. That’s my only point in saying that. Not to convince people that Penn will make you some super competent uber specialist machine of a doctor or something.

 

[ajs513]

View attachment 251964

Sorry! I totally thought you had already commented on here

 

[raf2769]

Wow everything about this thread is... a lot.

I’m a third year at Penn, I plan to go into GP right after school, I’m OOS, and I absolutely love my school. Yes, I have a s***ton of loans, but I have a plan that will help me get through it when I graduate. I hate this “pennwe” attitude, as do most of my classmates. We were so excited to host SAVMA symposium last year to show that we are just NOT that way! We are literally just trying to get through vet school, like all of us.

So many reasons go into why a person pick a certain school, and I think it’s pretty unfair of anyone to judge anyone else on that choice. Yes, going to the cheapest school IS the smartest long term option, and is the absolutely the best advice to be giving to future vet students. But there are a variety of factors that contribute to people ending up not picking the cheapest school, and that is someone’s choice. We don’t need to assume they are wealthy and don’t care about the money or that they think Penn is the absolute greatest thing to ever grace this earth.

My class is honestly filled with some of the nicest people, who will go out of their way, above and beyond, to help out their classmates. We share study guides, flash cards, and I feel like we have all worked together to conquer vet school. The environment is really non-competitive (at least in my class), which is one of the things that really made it desirable for me.

Personally, I do think Penn pushes to have a lot of students specialize after graduation. They treat it like it’s the norm to go through match and do an internship, even if you don’t want to do a residency. In talking to people from other schools, it’s not pushed nearly as strongly there. But that being said, I absolutely feel prepared (as much as I can right now without having started clinics yet) and want to go straight into practice, as do a good number of my classmates.

I really hate that anyone should feel like they have to “defend” their vet school on here. We are all going to be in the same field, graduating with the same knowledge. The focus should be working together to make the veterinary world better, not still judging others decisions on where they go to school.

Long story short: I love my school, and other people love their schools, and we’re all going to be vets with the same knowledge. Let’s not judge each other based on which school ended up being the right fit for them️

 

[BigRedEquine]

I totally agree with your point. I was just thinking that an expensive private vet school must then only end up seating students who either didn’t get a cheaper instate alternative or money isn’t a concern.

Is there any advantage to going to a “bigger name” private $$ vet school?

For example in regards to aid, would Cornell Vet school offer anything to entice a Student away from cheap instate?

I just want to clarify, Cornell Vet school is NOT private. I get cheaper in state tuition as a NY resident which is why I chose to attend. I believe the only private vet schools are LMU, Midwestern, and Western (someone correct me if I'm wrong?)

 

[cbucks]

I just want to clarify, Cornell Vet school is NOT private. I get cheaper in state tuition as a NY resident which is why I chose to attend. I believe the only private vet schools are LMU, Midwestern, and Western (someone correct me if I'm wrong?)

I’m pretty sure Penn and Tufts are also private schools! Not sure on the other three though

 

[Minnerbelle]

I'm not sure that a school that "pushes everyone to become specialists" is necessarily a positive. It usually means that faculty have their heads up their asses when it comes to GP, have NO idea what it's like to be out of academia (sort of like how Trump thinks you need ID to buy groceries and that you just make "deals with grocers" when you're out of cash). And the sneering attitude towards those who go into GP trickles down through the entire hospital and class. And for those reasons if you decide to go out in the work force rather than go through the match, no one has connections to help you get jobs or even knows how you should go about it.

As someone who was always in the top quartile of my class, excelled in clinics, with attractive extracurriculars that together made me look good enough on paper that allowed me to win pretty much all of the major nationwide industry scholarships that students from all schools compete for, I was a great student. I had multiple faculty members offer to write me LORs for the match without me asking them. The faculty who is in charge of the hospital's interns even pulled me aside to tell me she would love to have me back as their intern. But you know what happened every time I was like, "thanks so much, I so appreciate your offer, but I plan to go into GP"? It turned into this immediate look of pity. The nicest backhanded compliment I got was, "well I guess they need some good doctors too," as if only failed DVMs become GPs by default. Like I was throwing my career down the toilet. So while I listed them as references for jobs, there really wasn't anyone in the teaching hospital that I could talk to for support in finding my way. Faculty didn't approve, and it's not like they had the connections they needed to help me with GP jobs anyway.

Do I regret going to the school? No not at all. I got what I needed to out of the school. I had to work extra hard to get practical electives that provided me with a variety of surgical caseload so that I was a good surgeon at graduation, but I was prepared to practice. But do I think the environment that only cared about future specialists was helpful? Definitely not. I'm sure I would have been just as accomplished and driven without it, because I was never planning on specializing to begin with.

It's really hard to be a stellar GP. You really need to be talented in many ways. It's not just a vaccine clinic. In one week I might unblock and PU a cat, do a full mouth extraction, a FB surgery, while also seeing appts every 20-30min dealing with whatever medical issues that may arise that people will not see a specialist for even if they should. It's certainly not for everyone. And it's a damn shame when specialists, especially faculty, don't understand that. Becoming a specialist is not the end all be all of a veterinarian (actually it's not for a majority of us).

****, not doing an internship/residency allowed me to pay back my student loans in full in the time it would have taken me to get to my first real job as a specialist. And with the ability to earn $120k+ a year as a GP, and the desire to work part time while raising kids, there aren't that many specialties that would have even been financially worth it for me with a 4+ year set back. Time during your childbearing age is pretty precious for those who care, esp for someone like me who graduated vet school at 28. I'm not sure that makes me less than. And I think it's sad when academia makes it seem that way.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Very few schools want you to stay for an internship/residency. A lot of them don't mind if you have done an internship away then come back for a residency, but like you to branch out right out of school.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

As someone who was always in the top quartile of my class, excelled in clinics, with attractive extracurriculars that together made me look good enough on paper that allowed me to win pretty much all of the major nationwide industry scholarships that students from all schools compete for, I was a great student. I had multiple faculty members offer to write me LORs for the match without me asking them. The faculty who is in charge of the hospital's interns even pulled me aside to tell me she would love to have me back as their intern. But you know what happened every time I was like, "thanks so much, I so appreciate your offer, but I plan to go into GP"? It turned into this immediate look of pity. The nicest backhanded compliment I got was, "well I guess they need some good doctors too," as if only failed DVMs become GPs by default. Like I was throwing my career down the toilet. So while I listed them as references for jobs, there really wasn't anyone in the teaching hospital that I could talk to for support in finding my way. Faculty didn't approve, and it's not like they had the connections they needed to help me with GP jobs anyway.

That's awful and reprehensible.

As a specialist who has spent almost nine years post-vet school in the golden tower (or bubble, really) of academia....I have massive respect for GPs. You guys are the warriors in the trenches and there's no way I could do what you do. I've rarely seen specialists talking down to GPs....but it does happen, and when it does it make my blood boil.

 

[Minnerbelle]

That's awful and reprehensible.

As a specialist who has spent almost nine years post-vet school in the golden tower (or bubble, really) of academia....I have massive respect for GPs. You guys are the warriors in the trenches and there's no way I could do what you do. I've rarely seen specialists talking down to GPs....but it does happen, and when it does it make my blood boil.

What's sad is that they don't even mean to be offensive, or think that they are. If I were to ask them straight, I'm sure they would say that they "had the utmost respect for GPs as they have a hard job". They're truly wonderful clinicians I learned a ton from. But the disconnect was very real.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

What's sad is that they don't even mean to be offensive, or think that they are. If I were to ask them straight, I'm sure they would say that they "had the utmost respect for GPs as they have a hard job". They're truly wonderful clinicians I learned a ton from. But the disconnect was very real.

One of the main downsides of academic teaching hospitals. When you (you meaning faculty) work in a place that is inundated by specialists, you start unconsciously thinking of that as the "default" career course. Which is particularly problematic in vet med as most graduates will go on to do GP. I can see this problem only being worse at places where specialization is pushed too hard.

 

[ajs513]

I'm not sure that a school that "pushes everyone to become specialists" is necessarily a positive. It usually means that faculty have their heads up their asses when it comes to GP, have NO idea what it's like to be out of academia (sort of like how Trump thinks you need ID to buy groceries and that you just make "deals with grocers" when you're out of cash).

I’m really sorry you had that experience. Given that I haven’t started school yet, all I can say is that I didn’t get the impression from faculty that they only find you valuable as a vet if you specialize. However, I HAVE talked with my vet at length, pretty much everyday since I’ve started working for him, about his experience at Penn. He mainly flew under the radar and didn’t form very strong relationships with professors so he never felt like he was pushed to do anything other than what he wanted to do. Not that this is the best move because he’s definitely said he’s regretted not trying more. However, it does sound like Penn has a huge network of veterinarians, whether you’re a specialist or a GP, and that can be pretty beneficial. That’s one thing he said to me that he thought helped him. This is probably true of a lot of other schools in their area of the country, but being around dozens and dozens of graduates from your class helped him in his professional life. Again, probably true for most other schools, but definitely true for Penn too.

Like I said, I don’t have any experience aside from asking a lot of questions on interview day, but I didn’t get that impression from Penn. I asked the students if Penn is big on specializing since they all sounded like they had very specific plans for the future, and all of the students said that many of their classmates end up going on to become GP’s and they didn’t think it was frowned upon. I’m hoping what I heard that day is true and what other graduates have said ends up being my experience as well. But I can definitely understand how the specialize mentality can screw over students who always have wanted to stick to being a GP.

 

[ajs513]

So what are people's opinions on schools without teaching hospitals?

I don’t really have an opinion myself, but when Western tried getting accredited in the late 90’s there was so much backlash front most other vet schools because they didn’t have a teaching hospital that Western had to sue the AVMA to get the ball rolling.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I'm going to say this in the nicest way possible, but I would really just stop. Congratulations that you are happy with the school you are going to. I'm not saying anything negative per se about Penn. I was just pointing out that your logic might be a little flawed and that you might not want to speak with authority as you do about something you don't know anything about.

And as many pennwe's you've spoken to, unless you spoken with a good cross-section of this year'a graduating class who just got their match results and are in the thick of job hunting, they haven't a clue either. None of this stuff really comes up until clinics. First through third years haven't worked enough in a clinical setting with the faculty enough or haven't seriously discussed their career prospects enough to understand much of this stuff.

He mainly flew under the radar and didn’t form very strong relationships with professors so he never felt like he was pushed to do anything other than what he wanted to do.

Essentially you kinda proved my point. Your boss was one of those students the faculty didn't give 2 ****s about.

 

[DVMDream]

So what are people's opinions on schools without teaching hospitals?

I don't like that model. I especially don't like that the schools lacking a vet teaching hospital charge massive amounts of money in tuition (they are the most expensive schools to attend minus a couple exceptions). So you are paying through the nose to not have access to a teaching hospital your first 2-3 years depending on the program model. Then you have to spend $$$$$$$$$$$ to travel and stay in other places during your clinical years in order to get clinical experience.

I honestly think it is predatory and that the prime focus of these types of schools it to gather up the tuition money. Makes no sense to charge so much in tuition when you don't even have a teaching hospital to upkeep.

This isn't to say you won't get a good education from these schools, just that I think they only exist to get money from desperate students that are willing to go anywhere/pay anything to become a veterinarian and I think that is truly sad.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

My main issue with schools that don't have teaching hospitals is that there can be a lack of standards (both in terms of healthcare and in proper mentoring) when you are farming your students out to other practices. Students can have wildly different experiences - which is fine once you're out in practice and being exposed to a lot of different ideas - but when you're still a fourth year, you need very straightforward, grounded learning objectives and consistent standards of care.

Same with teaching - people work at teaching hospitals to TEACH in addition to providing care. Yes, yes, we can all name that one clinician who didn't want to or was terrible at it, but for the most part, clinicians at teaching hospitals are used to mentoring, guiding, etc. They have been doing it for years. This is something that can be inconsistent in private practice. Not due to any fault of the vets, I might add - but because they have a billion other things on their mind, have to worry about production, keeping the practice afloat, and don't have the cushion of an academic institution behind them.

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

So what are people's opinions on schools without teaching hospitals?

Oh boy, opening this can of worms again huh?

Personally I love having a teaching hospital and would place it pretty high on the list of factors that would atttact me to a school. I like getting to do cageside rounds weekly (for both large and small hospital), I like being able to just wander over and do some shadowing/volunteering after classes, and I like being able to see the fourth years on rotations to get a sligtly better glimpse of what our lives will be in a few years. Getting to go do things in the clinic has both motivated me to work hard during the semester (“remember why you are here” and all that), and helps solidify the concepts we are learning.

That being said, I would still go to whatever place was cheapest because tons of extra debt isn’t worth it. Obviously distributive learning still produces good vets, but personally I like having a teaching hospital more.

 

[battie]

It’s what Penn markets themselves as

Just going to make a general statement for marketing in vet schools as a whole. I know for our ambassador program that we ask what people are interested in doing and specifically try to pair them with an ambassador with those same interests. It makes the tour way more personalized and imparts on the person getting the tour that we are big into that area of medicine. Likewise for interview day, we try to have a variety of people from every class be guides and question/answer students.

Schools specifically will cater to what they think you want and really good tour guides/social media/etc students can interact with almost anyone positively. So whatever reputation a school seems to be imparting on you, a part of that is them projecting what they want you to know. If they think you're way into surgery, you'll hear more about that than beef cows. That's the whole point of marketing.

So what are people's opinions on schools without teaching hospitals?

 

[britzen]

You can't major in philosophy at my undergrad institution but you can at Yale or Harvard. What job are you going to get with a bachelors degree in philosophy?

He literally studied philosophy because he felt like it. That’s an expensive thing to just feel like doing...

Everybody loves to hate on a philosophy major....

The median mid-career earnings for a BA only philosophy major is about $81K, which is better than many "sensible" and STEM majors including: nursing, biology, chemistry, accounting, and IT.

That's also not much worse than the median salary for all veterinarians (currently around $90K), and may be even closer if you only counted the median for mid-career veterinarians. That's not even considering all the extra expense of vet school (+potential loan interest).

Clearly the majority of philosophy majors are doing just fine...