Multiple acceptances - Do vet schools find out and offer merit to protect yield?

[4.0nointerviewaurgh]

Just as a side note, I think GPA is important of course but there are things to consider like rigor of an academic undergraduate institution. It is nearly impossible to have a 4.0 as a STEM major at some schools. I even spoke to a couple 4.0 students at the vet schools I visited and they said they were straight A students in undergrad because they went to a place that didn't challenge them academically and they barely had to study and thus had to get with the studying program REAL quick at vet school if they didn't want to fall behind. Meanwhile, students going to places that really expect a lot from them, challenge them and require dedicated amounts of studying might not produce students with the highest GPA's but they might do better at adjusting to vet school because they already went somewhere challenging for undergrad.
It is quite frustrating to see people talking badly about certain schools that produce qualified veterinarians simply because they accept students with lower GPA's. Also, GPA is not the end all be all. If you look phenomenal on paper but have no communication skills, are not adept at handling animals, cannot think critically on your feet in emergency situations or lack some other facet that makes a great veterinarian I don't think your undergrad GPA matters that much overall.

When did drawing a correlation between two sets of data become talking badly about a school? And when some one tells me their GPA be it 4.0 or 2.8, I don't assume that they went to an easy school, had no communication skills, are inadept at handling animals, or can't think critically.in emergencies. But people who don't have 4.0GPAs think that about 4.0 people all the time.

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[Lupin21]

There are a lot of good topics in this thread related to concerns in veterinary medicine, so while we are off topic, I always appreciate discussion revolving around various crucial topics in our field.

However, please remember to be professional during these debates. I want these discussions and viewpoints presented, but do not break TOS as some are at times getting close to. Keep the posts about the topic, not the poster.

Carry on.

 

[prevetkid]

When did drawing a correlation between two sets of data become talking badly about a school? And when some one tells me their GPA be it 4.0 or 2.8, I don't assume that they went to an easy school, had no communication skills, are inadept at handling animals, or can't think critically.in emergencies. But people who don't have 4.0GPAs think that about 4.0 people all the time.

By saying that an expensive school accepts lower GPA students because they know the students will pay because they won't get accepted anywhere else or pointing out that Penn has probationary accreditation and that the ranking of DVM schools isn't referring only to the vet program all implies that Tufts, Penn, Cornell, every other expensive school is basically undermining the education that the school provides and, if you can read between the lines, is in essence "talking badly" about it.
As much as I would've loved to be accepted to my IS Cornell, I recognize that it is a competitive school and there were thousands of qualified applicants this year. I also would love to be an Alabama resident and go to University of Alabama as an IS student for real cheap and get a great education. Sadly, most of these schools that are cheaper only accept a handful of OOS students and moving somewhere for a year or 2 before applying somewhere wouldn't guarantee acceptance to that IS school. So many times people going to cheaper schools are either IS or the few phenomenal students that got lucky and were accepted OOS. I think that would explain why many people don't get accepted anywhere besides Penn or Tufts. It doesn't necessarily have to do with the fact that the schools themselves are money piranhas looking for the most desperate of future DVM's to exploit financially.

 

[grebes4lyfe]

There are a lot of 3.0 GPA and low vet hour students accepted into Tuffs and UPenn that were rejected from every other school. You have to remember that the ranking of vet schools is done based on their PhD and Masters research programs not their DVM program. Most UPenn and Tuffs PhD and Master students are on full scholarship and dual DVM/PhD and dual DVM/MS students are getting a large amount of the DVM tuition covered too. So these schools do have some of the brightest minds in their vet school.

You literally say "there are so many people at these schools who didn't get in anywhere else" and then IMMEDIATELY say "remember, these peeps don't factor into their rankings! and the one's who DO factor into the rankings aren't paying that full tuition!" and then saying "so they DO have some great minds there..." note: when you add a qualifying statement like that, you are also saying that the opposite is true. "so while there ARE smart people there (there are also some pretty not smart ones too)" is how that reads

Vet schools have many programs. DVM is just one of them. Ranking of vet schools are totally based on the impact of the research the school has done and the number of Masters and PhD degrees they offer. There is no ranking the quality of the DVM program. The only thing you can look at is the accreditation of the DVM program. If you view the accreditation report, UPenn is on probation right now. https://www.avma.org/ProfessionalDe...ents/2018-September-Accreditation-Actions.pdf

and then you say, again, that the quality of the DVM program isn't factored into rankings, and point out penn's probation (which FYI is not related to them graduating well prepared, intelligent veterinarians.... it was because they needed to update some facilities) as a way to back up your statement that the quality of the DVM program isn't considered in rankings (implying that penn's DVM (cough, VMD) program is low quality)

It's clear what I said. "Go look at the accepted board". I pointed out a correlation, there are people going to Upenn and Tufts because it's their only option dispute the cost according to an anonymous online forum. I never said it was a fact.

there are people at EVERY school who are there because it was their only option. This does not mean that the school is less competitive or worse for some reason. The price tag of tufts and penn do not mean that people who choose them because they were the only option are somehow inferior to someone who had a cheaper school as their only option.

TL;DR
while you might have never actually said, or even intended to say, "penn and tufts are accepting lower calibre students than other schools" it is very much how your posts have come across. if it was truly unintentional, i would recommend re-reading the tone of your posts. but don't gaslight us and say "show me exactly where i said sub-par because i never said that" when it's pretty clear that it's what you were implying.

additional point: i know of low GPA/GRE OR low vet hour acceptances to these schools, but I cannot say that I know of very many, if any, acceptances to people who are low in both.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

When did drawing a correlation between two sets of data become talking badly about a school? And when some one tells me their GPA be it 4.0 or 2.8, I don't assume that they went to an easy school, had no communication skills, are inadept at handling animals, or can't think critically.in emergencies. But people who don't have 4.0GPAs think that about 4.0 people all the time.

"Sets of data"? A few people posting acceptances on a forum is hardly "data", and certainly not worth drawing any sort of correlation about. As someone with a heavy research background, I find it more than a bit preposterous that you're trying to stand behind that as a legitimate correlation.

You may not have meant to come across the way you did, but perhaps now you will look a bit more critically about how you word things in the future. Instead of doubling down and being defensive, the more graceful thing to do would be to apologize and we can get back to the topic at hand.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I always find it interesting that prevets care so much about how one vet school compares to another whether it be by prestige or perceived caliber of students or whatever, when literally no one else cares. It's always people whose opinions matter the least who have the strongest opinions. like seriously, just concentrate on doing what you need to in order to become a doctor without ruining your life with debt. There's really no need for a pissing match.

 

[WildZoo]

there are people at EVERY school who are there because it was their only option

 

[WildZoo]

Ah yes, a riveting point

 

[ajs513]

Ah yes, a riveting point

 

[SkiOtter]

Ah yes, a riveting point

Aw they deleted their post

 

[WildZoo]

Aw they deleted their post

****, now I look like I'm talking to myself...

 

[WildZoo]

I would delete my post too, but then I'll lose all those likes

 

[WildZoo]

...getting the feeling that a post was deleted.

Boo. I always miss the fun stuff.

It wasn't exciting, just a quote without any response lol

 

[battie]

Also only at Illinois because they were my only acceptance.

So, using this information posted, there appears to be a correlation between cost and applicates stats.

Not a particularly strong data set since we generally get <100 stat posts out of 8000 applicants. Plus, you can argue there is a self-selecting bias of the kind of people who use SDN that precludes a variety of applicants from contributing their data.

If you truly want to see if this correlation exists, you should peruse the AAVMC data that's available every year on their website. You'll see that the correlation doesn't exist.

 

[Dinashadow]

When did drawing a correlation between two sets of data become talking badly about a school? And when some one tells me their GPA be it 4.0 or 2.8, I don't assume that they went to an easy school, had no communication skills, are inadept at handling animals, or can't think critically.in emergencies. But people who don't have 4.0GPAs think that about 4.0 people all the time.

Not sure about UPenn but you can literally go on the tufts website (as well as many other schools) and see the stats for whichever class you want instead of pulling random data points on an internet forum.

 

[4.0nointerviewaurgh]

Also only at Illinois because they were my only acceptance.



Not a particularly strong data set since we generally get <100 stat posts out of 8000 applicants. Plus, you can argue there is a self-selecting bias of the kind of people who use SDN that precludes a variety of applicants from contributing their data.

If you truly want to see if this correlation exists, you should peruse the AAVMC data that's available every year on their website. You'll see that the correlation doesn't exist.

After relooking at the threads before I first replied I can now see why others assumed I was bad mouthing all UPenn students. I do not believe all competitive applicates avoid the high cost vet schools, some do. (There is the go to the cheapest school crowd.) I'm sure that the school gets a broad range of applicates, if they weren't both Tufts and UPenn would offer more and/or higher merit scholarships. My post was to the question, is it easier for OOS to get into high cost schools like Tufts and UPenn, 47 and 48 in cost? I pointed to the accepted forum.
I can see your points about the data. The AAVMC data doesn't show you person A has this GPA, this GRE, this experience, those extras, they applied here, here, and here and got in here. Or why did person A apply to school a, b, f. If you have a link to that type of data please post it.

I don't have a problem with someone saying like you did, here are problems I see in your data. What I object to is people spinning my words.
Every year vet schools tell us that hundreds of qualified applicates are not given seats because there aren't enough, which is why I firmly objected when someone said I called others sub-par. That person also said because I used the words "only accepted to one school" I was calling those people sub-par, again not true. There was a long string of data before those words. A lot of people only got into one school and it means they are going to be a vet and isn't that what we are all shooting for?

How hard or easy it is to get into Vet school A compared to Vet school B, isn't saying that one school is better than the other. Cost, number of seats, and location can all be reasons why it's easier to get into a school. Stating the fact that rankings are based on the impact of a schools research not the quality of it's DVM program isn't bad mouthing highly ranked schools.

I am a "go to the cheapest school person", because no one has shown me proof that if I go to school A, I will be paid more or I will have a better change to do a specialty. Any accredited vet school is going to get me a great education.
Two other things I think you should look at when choosing between multiple schools are the accreditation reports and each schools average student debt to salary ratio.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I don't have a problem with someone saying like you did, here are problems I see in your data. What I object to is people spinning my words. Every year vet schools tell us that hundreds of qualified applicates are not given seats because there aren't enough, which is why I firmly objected when someone said I called others sub-par. That person also said because I used the words "only accepted to one school" I was calling those people sub-par, again not true. There was a long string of data before those words. A lot of people only got into one school and it means they are going to be a vet and isn't that what we are all shooting for?

 

[battie]

I can see your points about the data. The AAVMC data doesn't show you person A has this GPA, this GRE, this experience, those extras, they applied here, here, and here and got in here. Or why did person A apply to school a, b, f. If you have a link to that type of data please post it.

That's not the type of data you originally were looking for (from my interpretation). You said: "So, using this information posted, there appears to be a correlation between cost and applicates stats." The AAVMC data does give you this because it gives you basic stats (average GPAs, GRE, hours, etc) and then you could simply look up (also on the AAVMC website) the COA or COT for the 40 or so schools that are accredited. Then you'd actually have more reliable numbers because the AAVMC has the data from all applicants rather than SDN's 100 posts.

The AAVMC does put out a journal quarterly that looks at student learning and student concerns. You could look that up and see the surveys and such that have been submitted by schools. I don't have those on hand (I steal them from our ASA when they set them out as "casual" reading), but they're fun to go through.

My post was to the question, is it easier for OOS to get into high cost schools like Tufts and UPenn, 47 and 48 in cost? I pointed to the accepted forum.

Again, the "Accepted Student" threads are not a good thing to look at for a correlation because 1) relatively small sample size and 2) possibly self-selecting bias of the people who use SDN. That's everyone's problem with your use of the word "data". That's simply not good data to be using to find a correlation for anything.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Again, the "Accepted Student" threads are not a good thing to look at for a correlation because 1) relatively small sample size and 2) possibly definitely self-selecting bias of the people who use SDN. That's everyone's problem with your use of the word "data". That's simply not good data to be using to find a correlation for anything.

Fify. This is why selective self-reporting, without controlling for a myriad of confounding factors, it not representative of the general characteristics of larger populations when used as a sole source of information. It's anecdotal evidence at best.

 

[VIN-Foundation]

I also would love to be an Alabama resident and go to University of Alabama as an IS student for real cheap and get a great education.

Actually you would get a terrible education because the University of Alabama's veterinary program is subpar and I would not recommend going there.

On the other hand Auburn University is excellent.

War eagle.

 

[battie]

Actually you would get a terrible education because the University of Alabama's veterinary program is subpar and I would not recommend going there.

On the other hand Auburn University is excellent.

War eagle.

The sass is on point.

 

[prevetkid]

Actually you would get a terrible education because the University of Alabama's veterinary program is subpar and I would not recommend going there.

On the other hand Auburn University is excellent.

War eagle.

lol, wherever the cheapest IS tuition wouldve been....maybe in my next life

 

[ajs513]

Fify. This is why selective self-reporting, without controlling for a myriad of confounding factors, it not representative of the general characteristics of larger populations when used as a sole source of information. It's anecdotal evidence at best.

I can attest to that. I literally only reported my stats because my GPA was so low. At my interview DAY, EVERYONE I spoke to was so surprised that I had gotten rejected from a good number of schools but got an interview at Penn. I probably spoke to 6 or 7 people specifically about my stats. I have a comparatively low GPA (3.32) to many other applicants, but my experience is extremely high (now >5,000 hours). The average is 1,200 hours. At the end of the day, I just wanted people to know that it’s possible for applicants who had a rough academic start in college to get accepted within the US. Not to mention Penn was my top choice (above tOSU, Michigan State, Mississippi State, and the 5 other schools I applied to). My story isn’t typical. I just happened to have an outstanding application outside of my first 2 years of college. Most applicants I’ve spoken with who got into Penn, are currently at Penn, or graduated from Penn don’t have the same stats as me. My current doctor graduated with honors from an Ivy League college and got into every school he applied to. Another Penn graduate I know graduate summa cum laude from U Del and got into several schools. Another few who I went to college with graduated with honors (ranging from cum laude to summa). I am NOT the typical person to get into Penn. I’m very much the exception. If I had concrete statistics I’d link them, but I don’t. My only reason for saying this now is that I live in an area where the majority of vets are VMD’s, so I have a much larger than average anecdotal pool to draw from.

 

[4.0nointerviewaurgh]

That's not the type of data you originally were looking for (from my interpretation). You said: "So, using this information posted, there appears to be a correlation between cost and applicates stats." The AAVMC data does give you this because it gives you basic stats (average GPAs, GRE, hours, etc) and then you could simply look up (also on the AAVMC website) the COA or COT for the 40 or so schools that are accredited. Then you'd actually have more reliable numbers because the AAVMC has the data from all applicants rather than SDN's 100 posts.

The AAVMC does put out a journal quarterly that looks at student learning and student concerns. You could look that up and see the surveys and such that have been submitted by schools. I don't have those on hand (I steal them from our ASA when they set them out as "casual" reading), but they're fun to go through.



Again, the "Accepted Student" threads are not a good thing to look at for a correlation because 1) relatively small sample size and 2) possibly self-selecting bias of the people who use SDN. That's everyone's problem with your use of the word "data". That's simply not good data to be using to find a correlation for anything.

Spelling error and missing comma here. applicant's stats - one person.
Using the data you say would show me that average stats by cost. Not what I'm looking for.

Second, you quoted me
"My post was to the question, is it easier for OOS to get into high cost schools like Tufts and UPenn, 47 and 48 in cost? I pointed to the accepted forum."

Is there a reason you did not quote the next sentence where I said?
"I can see your point about the data."

Normally when someone concedes you don't keep beating them.

 

[ajs513]

Spelling error and missing comma here. applicant's stats - one person.
Using the data you say would show me that average stats by cost. Not what I'm looking for.

Second, you quoted me
"My post was to the question, is it easier for OOS to get into high cost schools like Tufts and UPenn, 47 and 48 in cost? I pointed to the accepted forum."

Is there a reason you did not quote the next sentence where I said?
"I can see your point about the data."

Normally when someone concedes you don't keep beating them.

You’re the one who kept saying “applicates” so why are you coming at him for quoting you? Because he didn’t add a [sic] in there?

Also, you didn’t actually concede. You essentially did the equivalent of saying “I’m sorry what I said hurt your feelings” when someone asks for an apology.

And as the moderator said, we need to keep this professional and in line. Don’t come at people. Don’t start pointing out grammar, especially when you’re the one who made the mistake. This was over much earlier but you just want to get the last word.

 

[battie]

Spelling error and missing comma here. applicant's stats - one person.
Using the data you say would show me that average stats by cost. Not what I'm looking

That's your incorrect spelling and missing comma from way back, bro. And at least I didn't stoop to the level of judging you.

Is there a reason you did not quote the next sentence where I said?
"I can see your point about the data."

Normally when someone concedes you don't keep beating them.

Because you didn't concede. You inferred, I get where you're coming from; but it still feel my point is valid.

 

[dyachei]

Just in case it was a lost message - go to the cheapest school. I graduated with "average" debt and am a DINK but still havent finished paying off loans.

 

[ziggyandjazzy]

Full disclosure, I am also married so if I seem less panicked about the state of my life it is 1) because I'm in denial and 2) because I married a mechanical engineer

There are no guarantees in life though so I've always looked at things as such...I want to make sure I will be ok even if I don't have his income to depend on

You're married?!

 

[SkiOtter]

You're married?!

Shocking isn’t it, that a 12 year old was allowed to get married

 

[WildZoo]

You're married?!

Si. And a good thing too, I think I would have starved to death by now without someone else to feed me during school.

 

[ziggyandjazzy]

Si. And a good thing too, I think I would have starved to death by now without someone else to feed me during school.

I mean, I both relate and don't relate to this. I don't want to get married for like a long long time but my SO makes me food almost every day. I just ate this beyond meat burger he made me and it was very delicious

 

[WildZoo]

I mean, I both relate and don't relate to this. I don't want to get married for like a long long time but my SO makes me food almost every day. I just ate this beyond meat burger he made me and it was very delicious
View attachment 252371

I married him for the in state residency benefits

 

[Caiter92]

I mean, I both relate and don't relate to this. I don't want to get married for like a long long time but my SO makes me food almost every day. I just ate this beyond meat burger he made me and it was very delicious
View attachment 252371

Can he cook for me too please

 

[Barkley13]

Si. And a good thing too, I think I would have starved to death by now without someone else to feed me during school.

My fiance cooks every night. I almost starved when he went on a week long business trip.

 

[ziggyandjazzy]

Omg just found this
The Husbandry and Feeding of Veterinarians (for new owners)
of particular relevance is #3

 

[WildZoo]

Omg just found this
The Husbandry and Feeding of Veterinarians (for new owners)
of particular relevance is #3

Hehe yes, this is one of my favorite things on the internet

 

[prevetkid]

Omg just found this
The Husbandry and Feeding of Veterinarians (for new owners)
of particular relevance is #3

this was genius

 

[twelvetigers]

Just in case it was a lost message - go to the cheapest school. I graduated with "average" debt and am a DINK but still havent finished paying off loans.

A - fckn - men.

You little toots listen to your elders - we're the ones out here livin' in it.

 

[twelvetigers]

I read this whole thread, and now I'm going to take a deep breath and move on.

Keep fighting the good fight, young wise people that are paying attention.

 

[vetmedhead]

I have no idea how I missed whatever it is that was happening in this thread this week, but I am entertained by it nonetheless