Multiple acceptances - Do vet schools find out and offer merit to protect yield?

[ajs513]

Everybody loves to hate on a philosophy major....

The median mid-career earnings for a BA only philosophy major is about $81K, which is better than many "sensible" and STEM majors including: nursing, biology, chemistry, accounting, and IT.

That's also not much worse than the median salary for all veterinarians (currently around $90K), and may be even closer if you only counted the median for mid-career veterinarians. That's not even considering all the extra expense of vet school (+potential loan interest).

Clearly the majority of philosophy majors are doing just fine...

Wow... that really changed my outlook on things. I guess my friend was just a crappy example of a reason to study philosophy.

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[MixedAnimals77]

Everybody loves to hate on a philosophy major....

The median mid-career earnings for a BA only philosophy major is about $81K, which is better than many "sensible" and STEM majors including: nursing, biology, chemistry, accounting, and IT.

That's also not much worse than the median salary for all veterinarians (currently around $90K), and may be even closer if you only counted the median for mid-career veterinarians. That's not even considering all the extra expense of vet school (+potential loan interest).

Clearly the majority of philosophy majors are doing just fine...

This is interesting. I know someone who's a philosophy major-I assume they'll end up going to law school like their parents, but that's not trying to get a job with a BA in philosophy. I guess I just don't know what you would do for a job? Like obviously they exist but like what do they do? I mean if you want the most bang for your buck go be a plummer or electrician or some similar trade job-sometimes I think I screwed up not doing that.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Everybody loves to hate on a philosophy major....

The median mid-career earnings for a BA only philosophy major is about $81K, which is better than many "sensible" and STEM majors including: nursing, biology, chemistry, accounting, and IT.

That's also not much worse than the median salary for all veterinarians (currently around $90K), and may be even closer if you only counted the median for mid-career veterinarians. That's not even considering all the extra expense of vet school (+potential loan interest).

Clearly the majority of philosophy majors are doing just fine...

In what sector? And is this figure based on only people who have stayed in philosophy-focused jobs, or all people who have a BA in philosophy but who may have pursued other careers?

 

[ajs513]

In what sector? And is this figure based on only people who have stayed in philosophy-focused jobs, or all people who have a BA in philosophy but who may have pursued other careers?

From some googling, it looks like it’s all sectors. I’m not entirely sure what a philosophy BA would get you in the philosophy field. Actually, what even is the philosophy field aside from academia?

 

[mht2k3]

I'm going to stay out of most of this thread, but to the OP: i've known some people that have reached out to more expensive/OOS schools and said they really want to go there but X school is offering this much and can they match it. It worked for at least one person I know so you could try it?

Worst case they just say no and you go to your cheapest option.

 

[DairyGirl24]

I

I'm going to stay out of most of this thread, but to the OP: i've known some people that have reached out to more expensive/OOS schools and said they really want to go there but X school is offering this much and can they match it. It worked for at least one person I know so you could try it?

Worst case they just say no and you go to your cheapest option.

I know someone that was a NY resident that really wanted to go to Penn and I believe they offered to match Cornell's in state tuition for her.

 

[supershorty]

Am I the only one reading this conversation now with the "What Do You Do with a BA in English" song from Avenue Q going through my head?

 

[ajs513]

Am I the only one reading this conversation now with the "What Do You Do with a BA in English" song from Avenue Q going through my head?

I’m just singing “what do you do with a drunken sailor.”

 

[WildZoo]

If you ask me, with a BA in English you go to vet school and try to write a book in your "free" time

 

[battie]

I legit wish (from an academic perspective) I had gone for anything other than biology. Other than vet school, it was the most worthless degree I could've gotten.

 

[WildZoo]

I legit wish (from an academic perspective) I had gone for anything other than biology. Other than vet school, it was the most worthless degree I could've gotten.

I'd say a bio degree is probably half a step up in usefulness compared to a pre-vet degree, but really it tends to just be a stepping stone to grad school most of the time.

So since I have a bio degree AND a writing degree, I think that makes me double useless.

 

[Caiter92]

I legit wish (from an academic perspective) I had gone for anything other than biology. Other than vet school, it was the most worthless degree I could've gotten.

Eh, I think that depends on what your secondary goals were. My degree was Biology with a focus on Ecology and Evolution, because I had planned to go for my Master’s originally. There were a lot of entry level field jobs I could have applied for with just the BS as well.

So if someone doesn’t want to work in science, yeah bio isn’t the best degree. But if someone planned to pursue something with in the field if they didn’t get into Vet school, it’s definitely not a worthless degree

This is why though it’s probably better for people to major in whatever they’re actually interested in, and then just complete pre reqs as well.

 

[britzen]

In what sector? And is this figure based on only people who have stayed in philosophy-focused jobs, or all people who have a BA in philosophy but who may have pursued other careers?

The study accounted for people in any career who had only a BA in philosophy and no graduate degree. It did the same for other jobs, so if you had an civil engineering degree but worked as a business consultant, your salary would still be counted in the civil engineering category. And if you had say a BA in philosophy but worked as a lawyer because you also had a JD, you wouldn't be counted. They followed somewhere around a million people, but I don't know the specifics of the study parameters.

I think it would be very hard to account for people who stayed in philosophy only jobs because what would you count outside of academia? I personally would say that it's easy to argue that most legal or government policy jobs should count, but you could make an argument for almost any field on the basis of studying logic and ethics alone.

Business and medical ethics are two areas that I have seen brought up for careers where a background in philosophy is useful, but I wouldn't consider business management or health administration to be in a "philosophy sector" for example. Same with studying logic and going on to become a software engineer, which is brought up pretty frequently as well as a career area where philosophy majors seem to do well.

I don't think the goal of most philosophy majors is to pull a Thoreau and get metaphysical in the woods, which is what I think most people sort of picture them doing. For most people in the major, I don't think being a business consultant is really a consolation prize because they couldn't find work as a philosopher.

It also bears saying that the worst earners with a BA in philosophy are probably doing significantly worse than someone with a BA in something like nursing, and their entry level salaries are very low on average. There's a lot more variability among philosophy earners than many STEM careers, probably because they're all over the map in different fields. So my point is definitely not "Go be a Philosophy Major instead of a doctor! You'll definitely make all the Money!" because that would be terrible life advice. (Let's be honest, we all should have been engineers if we wanted that sweet debt:income ratio.)



For the few people who asked something like "but what would you do with a philosophy degree???", If I remember correctly, the places philosophy majors went from my school were mostly:

graduate school (law school or PhD)
legal research / paralegal (often a stepping stone for law school)
business / business consulting
Wall Street / finance
government (mostly federal)
journalism
software engineering

Take that list with a grain of salt because 1. that was my specific fancy-pants school and I can't speak to the average philosophy major nationwide and 2. that's based on 15 year old memories and probably some stereotyping that I've decided are memories.

Anecdotally, all of the philosophy majors I know headed to some type of graduate school. The four people I can think of that were my year or the year above obtained a JD, a joint MD/MA in bioethics, a PhD in philosophy, and a PhD in history (with some specialization related to ethics in his work, and I think a stint as a freelance journalist before graduate school). They work respectively as a lawyer, a doctor, and as professors. So only one is actually a philosopher, but I'd argue that all four are working in some type of philosophical capacity.



PS - Sorry for derailing the thread. As a humanities major I get very defensive when I feel like the humanities are getting piled on as somehow being unworthy of study or incapable of producing a viable career. My career before vet school was stable, had a lot of potential for growth, and my max career salary probably would have been about the same as it will be after I graduate with a DVM. The main differences are it would have probably taken me longer to hit career max, I would have hated my life for 30 years, and there is a high probability that I would have rage-quit before retirement and gone to live in a yurt.

 

[raf2769]

10/10 recommend music degrees

 

[battie]

So if someone doesn’t want to work in science, yeah bio isn’t the best degree

That's why I said it was a useless degree for me to get, not that bio degrees are worthless in general. A backup plan never occurred to me until I was wait listed and didn't get in. That's when unprepared me looked at available jobs with a bio degree and 0% appealed to me. My eventual backup plan ended up being working in Residence Life, so hindsight is 20/20.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The study accounted for people in any career who had only a BA in philosophy and no graduate degree. It did the same for other jobs, so if you had an civil engineering degree but worked as a business consultant, your salary would still be counted in the civil engineering category. And if you had say a BA in philosophy but worked as a lawyer because you also had a JD, you wouldn't be counted. They followed somewhere around a million people, but I don't know the specifics of the study parameters.

I think it would be very hard to account for people who stayed in philosophy only jobs because what would you count outside of academia? I personally would say that it's easy to argue that most legal or government policy jobs should count, but you could make an argument for almost any field on the basis of studying logic and ethics alone.

Business and medical ethics are two areas that I have seen brought up for careers where a background in philosophy is useful, but I wouldn't consider business management or health administration to be in a "philosophy sector" for example. Same with studying logic and going on to become a software engineer, which is brought up pretty frequently as well as a career area where philosophy majors seem to do well.

I don't think the goal of most philosophy majors is to pull a Thoreau and get metaphysical in the woods, which is what I think most people sort of picture them doing. For most people in the major, I don't think being a business consultant is really a consolation prize because they couldn't find work as a philosopher.

It also bears saying that the worst earners with a BA in philosophy are probably doing significantly worse than someone with a BA in something like nursing, and their entry level salaries are very low on average. There's a lot more variability among philosophy earners than many STEM careers, probably because they're all over the map in different fields. So my point is definitely not "Go be a Philosophy Major instead of a doctor! You'll definitely make all the Money!" because that would be terrible life advice. (Let's be honest, we all should have been engineers if we wanted that sweet debt:income ratio.)



For the few people who asked something like "but what would you do with a philosophy degree???", If I remember correctly, the places philosophy majors went from my school were mostly:

graduate school (law school or PhD)
legal research / paralegal (often a stepping stone for law school)
business / business consulting
Wall Street / finance
government (mostly federal)
journalism
software engineering

Take that list with a grain of salt because 1. that was my specific fancy-pants school and I can't speak to the average philosophy major nationwide and 2. that's based on 15 year old memories and probably some stereotyping that I've decided are memories.

Anecdotally, all of the philosophy majors I know headed to some type of graduate school. The four people I can think of that were my year or the year above obtained a JD, a joint MD/MA in bioethics, a PhD in philosophy, and a PhD in history (with some specialization related to ethics in his work, and I think a stint as a freelance journalist before graduate school). They work respectively as a lawyer, a doctor, and as professors. So only one is actually a philosopher, but I'd argue that all four are working in some type of philosophical capacity.



PS - Sorry for derailing the thread. As a humanities major I get very defensive when I feel like the humanities are getting piled on as somehow being unworthy of study or incapable of producing a viable career. My career before vet school was stable, had a lot of potential for growth, and my max career salary probably would have been about the same as it will be after I graduate with a DVM. The main differences are it would have probably taken me longer to hit career max, I would have hated my life for 30 years, and there is a high probability that I would have rage-quit before retirement and gone to live in a yurt.

I didn't mean to sound dismissive at all (it's just the scientist in me always being skeptical of studies, heh). I think the arts and humanities are slammed a lot when they shouldn't be as well. I was a history minor in college and loved it, and I'm a ridiculous literature fan. One of the most useful classes I ever had was a Philosophy class about logical use of language and how to make proper arguments.

Things like philosophy, history, literature, etc need to be taught - absolutely. Is it harder to get a job in those areas outside of academia? Sure. But these disciplines really teach you how to think in a different way, IMO. What was that quote....something about science teaches us all the cool things we can do, but the humanities teach us whether we should do them or not?

Even if most of humanity degrees end up being recycled into academia to teach the next generation of humanity majors, I still think that's a good thing - because even if these subjects aren't super hands-on "applicable" in the traditional (i.e. STEM) sense, they are still concepts that any well rounded human being needs to know.

 

[LyraGardenia]

Just going to make a general statement for marketing in vet schools as a whole. I know for our ambassador program that we ask what people are interested in doing and specifically try to pair them with an ambassador with those same interests. It makes the tour way more personalized and imparts on the person getting the tour that we are big into that area of medicine.

I wish we did this, I feel bad when I give a tour to someone interested in large animal, but I don't know much beyond the basics to tell them about the large animal side of the hospital. But we only have about 10 ambassadors per class, so it might not always be feasible to match people up like that.

 

[prevetkid]

Wow everything about this thread is... a lot.

I’m a third year at Penn, I plan to go into GP right after school, I’m OOS, and I absolutely love my school. Yes, I have a s***ton of loans, but I have a plan that will help me get through it when I graduate. I hate this “pennwe” attitude, as do most of my classmates. We were so excited to host SAVMA symposium last year to show that we are just NOT that way! We are literally just trying to get through vet school, like all of us.

So many reasons go into why a person pick a certain school, and I think it’s pretty unfair of anyone to judge anyone else on that choice. Yes, going to the cheapest school IS the smartest long term option, and is the absolutely the best advice to be giving to future vet students. But there are a variety of factors that contribute to people ending up not picking the cheapest school, and that is someone’s choice. We don’t need to assume they are wealthy and don’t care about the money or that they think Penn is the absolute greatest thing to ever grace this earth.

My class is honestly filled with some of the nicest people, who will go out of their way, above and beyond, to help out their classmates. We share study guides, flash cards, and I feel like we have all worked together to conquer vet school. The environment is really non-competitive (at least in my class), which is one of the things that really made it desirable for me.

Personally, I do think Penn pushes to have a lot of students specialize after graduation. They treat it like it’s the norm to go through match and do an internship, even if you don’t want to do a residency. In talking to people from other schools, it’s not pushed nearly as strongly there. But that being said, I absolutely feel prepared (as much as I can right now without having started clinics yet) and want to go straight into practice, as do a good number of my classmates.

I really hate that anyone should feel like they have to “defend” their vet school on here. We are all going to be in the same field, graduating with the same knowledge. The focus should be working together to make the veterinary world better, not still judging others decisions on where they go to school.

Long story short: I love my school, and other people love their schools, and we’re all going to be vets with the same knowledge. Let’s not judge each other based on which school ended up being the right fit for them️

As someone about to attend Penn out of state what is the plan for paying off the debt because I am actually losing sleep thinking about the debt

 

[prevetkid]

I'm not sure that a school that "pushes everyone to become specialists" is necessarily a positive. It usually means that faculty have their heads up their asses when it comes to GP, have NO idea what it's like to be out of academia (sort of like how Trump thinks you need ID to buy groceries and that you just make "deals with grocers" when you're out of cash). And the sneering attitude towards those who go into GP trickles down through the entire hospital and class. And for those reasons if you decide to go out in the work force rather than go through the match, no one has connections to help you get jobs or even knows how you should go about it.

As someone who was always in the top quartile of my class, excelled in clinics, with attractive extracurriculars that together made me look good enough on paper that allowed me to win pretty much all of the major nationwide industry scholarships that students from all schools compete for, I was a great student. I had multiple faculty members offer to write me LORs for the match without me asking them. The faculty who is in charge of the hospital's interns even pulled me aside to tell me she would love to have me back as their intern. But you know what happened every time I was like, "thanks so much, I so appreciate your offer, but I plan to go into GP"? It turned into this immediate look of pity. The nicest backhanded compliment I got was, "well I guess they need some good doctors too," as if only failed DVMs become GPs by default. Like I was throwing my career down the toilet. So while I listed them as references for jobs, there really wasn't anyone in the teaching hospital that I could talk to for support in finding my way. Faculty didn't approve, and it's not like they had the connections they needed to help me with GP jobs anyway.

Do I regret going to the school? No not at all. I got what I needed to out of the school. I had to work extra hard to get practical electives that provided me with a variety of surgical caseload so that I was a good surgeon at graduation, but I was prepared to practice. But do I think the environment that only cared about future specialists was helpful? Definitely not. I'm sure I would have been just as accomplished and driven without it, because I was never planning on specializing to begin with.

It's really hard to be a stellar GP. You really need to be talented in many ways. It's not just a vaccine clinic. In one week I might unblock and PU a cat, do a full mouth extraction, a FB surgery, while also seeing appts every 20-30min dealing with whatever medical issues that may arise that people will not see a specialist for even if they should. It's certainly not for everyone. And it's a damn shame when specialists, especially faculty, don't understand that. Becoming a specialist is not the end all be all of a veterinarian (actually it's not for a majority of us).

****, not doing an internship/residency allowed me to pay back my student loans in full in the time it would have taken me to get to my first real job as a specialist. And with the ability to earn $120k+ a year as a GP, and the desire to work part time while raising kids, there aren't that many specialties that would have even been financially worth it for me with a 4+ year set back. Time during your childbearing age is pretty precious for those who care, esp for someone like me who graduated vet school at 28. I'm not sure that makes me less than. And I think it's sad when academia makes it seem that way.

Hello! Just wondering in case I missed this- did you go to Penn? And if so, as a GP it only took you like 4 years to pay back the debt? (if that's the case, GP here I come!) Also making $120+ a year as a GP sounds great like where do you work lol

 

[WildZoo]

As someone about to attend Penn out of state what is the plan for paying off the debt because I am actually losing sleep thinking about the debt

You can do some calculations through VIN Foundation Student Debt Center - VIN

Basically people fall into two camps most of the time when it comes to student debt:
1) Your debt is low enough that you should pay it off as quickly as possible
2) Your debt is so high that you should focus on paying as little into it as possible while saving up for the taxes on the forgiven amount at the end of 20 or 25 years (depending on your repayment plan)

There are a lot of factors that go into determining which of those camps you fall into, VIN helps parse out some of those.

The biggest thing though is minimizing your debt as much as you can to begin with.

 

[prevetkid]

You can do some calculations through VIN Foundation Student Debt Center - VIN

Basically people fall into two camps most of the time when it comes to student debt:
1) Your debt is low enough that you should pay it off as quickly as possible
2) Your debt is so high that you should focus on paying as little into it as possible while saving up for the taxes on the forgiven amount at the end of 20 or 25 years (depending on your repayment plan)

There are a lot of factors that go into determining which of those camps you fall into, VIN helps parse out some of those.

The biggest thing though is minimizing your debt as much as you can to begin with.

well based on these calculations, if I do IBR ill be paying until 2050 looooooool im crying

 

[SkiOtter]

well based on these calculations, if I do IBR ill be paying until 2050 looooooool im crying

Yep. 20-25 year repayment plans. But sometimes it’s the best option.

 

[WildZoo]

well based on these calculations, if I do IBR ill be paying until 2050 looooooool im crying

Yup. I'll graduate next year and likely be paying until 2050-2055 depending on which plan ends up working best for me. And will definitely be in the "loans so high you might as well give up and save for the taxes" category.

 

[battie]

I wish we did this, I feel bad when I give a tour to someone interested in large animal, but I don't know much beyond the basics to tell them about the large animal side of the hospital. But we only have about 10 ambassadors per class, so it might not always be feasible to match people up like that.

We have 10 Ambassadors total right now, if you include me. The first years had to have their apps in by Friday evening, but I haven't really started looking at them. The advantage for our system is that we have a student coordinator (me) for our ambassador program now. Since I personally know all the Ambassadors, it's pretty easy for me to look at the submission form and say, "You're going with this third year."

 

[ajs513]

well based on these calculations, if I do IBR ill be paying until 2050 looooooool im crying

Don’t think it’s impossible to pay off your loans before then. I believe the average length of time to repay vet school loans is 10 years. My interviewer for St George’s was super up front and told me she paid off her loans in 5 years by just putting off everything expensive in her life, living with her partner, and shoveling all of her income into her loans. Obviously I’m no expert on student loan repayment, and I’m sure 99% of people here aren’t either, but there are so many factors in life after graduation that determine how long it’ll take you to repay your loans. Whether it’s public service loan forgiveness, living like a pauper for a while, income based repayment, having a spouse/SO who will help you out, or enrolling in a flat 10 or 20 year repayment plan, there are a lot of ways to do it. The default rate is very low (a fraction of a percent) so obviously people get by. I’m sure we’ll be no different. But talk to the financial aid department. Nichole is super nice and I’m sure she’ll lend some professional advice that is more reassuring than my advice since I’m basically in your position and the reality of the debt hasn’t hit me yet.

 

[deleted676737]

Just throwing it out there: I’m repaying my vet school debt right now; I have just over $100k in loans, and I won’t ever pay it off at the rate that I’m going and am banking on forgiveness still being available when I make it to the end of my repayment period (I’m on PAYE), though I have no idea how I’m going to handle the tax bomb. A standard 10 year repayment plan would require me to put 80-90% of my income towards my debt, which isn’t feasible and isn’t happening. It keeps climbing because I can’t even touch the interest, let alone the principal. If I had $200,000+ in debt, I don’t know what I’d do, or especially the $300,000+ of schools like Penn. Which is why I’m so thankful that I made the decision to attend my cheapest option for vet school possible.

Granted, I’m in a pretty unique situation and I don’t have an SO or anything, but still. The debt is very real and shouldn’t be taken lightly. I know vets who can’t get approved for mortgages or car loans because their debt:income ratios are so lopsided.

You never know what is going to happen in vet school or your future life; you may fail out, you may have to leave for health reasons, you may decide partway through or even after school that you hate the profession and leave it, your relationship with your SO may not last. I honestly do think that, in the overwhelming majority of cases, picking the least expensive option for vet school is the wisest decision. Not just because it’s less of a burden on you if you do graduate and work as a vet, but also in the unlikely case that you DON’T for whatever reason or your planned living arrangements fall through or you decide to pursue something else.

 

[prevetkid]

Yup. I'll graduate next year and likely be paying until 2050-2055 depending on which plan ends up working best for me. And will definitely be in the "loans so high you might as well give up and save for the taxes" category.

the fact that you are so okay about this gives me hope! i would like to pay off my debt but also still enjoy my life and travel and have a family. i know i wont have the most extravagant lifestyle but i would just like to be happy and comfortable

 

[DVMoftheFuture]

Don’t think it’s impossible to pay off your loans before then. I believe the average length of time to repay vet school loans is 10 years. My interviewer for St George’s was super up front and told me she paid off her loans in 5 years by just putting off everything expensive in her life, living with her partner, and shoveling all of her income into her loans. Obviously I’m no expert on student loan repayment, and I’m sure 99% of people here aren’t either, but there are so many factors in life after graduation that determine how long it’ll take you to repay your loans. Whether it’s public service loan forgiveness, living like a pauper for a while, income based repayment, having a spouse/SO who will help you out, or enrolling in a flat 10 or 20 year repayment plan, there are a lot of ways to do it. The default rate is very low (a fraction of a percent) so obviously people get by. I’m sure we’ll be no different. But talk to the financial aid department. Nichole is super nice and I’m sure she’ll lend some professional advice that is more reassuring than my advice since I’m basically in your position and the reality of the debt hasn’t hit me yet.

As I calculated out in my previous post, total OOS loan debt plus accrued interest at time of graduation for an OOS student at Penn is $431,000. No one can pay that off. It would actually cost more to completely pay off the loan than to take advantage of IBR, and IBR necessitates paying for at least 20 years.

 

[prevetkid]

Don’t think it’s impossible to pay off your loans before then. I believe the average length of time to repay vet school loans is 10 years. My interviewer for St George’s was super up front and told me she paid off her loans in 5 years by just putting off everything expensive in her life, living with her partner, and shoveling all of her income into her loans. Obviously I’m no expert on student loan repayment, and I’m sure 99% of people here aren’t either, but there are so many factors in life after graduation that determine how long it’ll take you to repay your loans. Whether it’s public service loan forgiveness, living like a pauper for a while, income based repayment, having a spouse/SO who will help you out, or enrolling in a flat 10 or 20 year repayment plan, there are a lot of ways to do it. The default rate is very low (a fraction of a percent) so obviously people get by. I’m sure we’ll be no different. But talk to the financial aid department. Nichole is super nice and I’m sure she’ll lend some professional advice that is more reassuring than my advice since I’m basically in your position and the reality of the debt hasn’t hit me yet.

wow this is like a support group and i love everyone being super upfront but also showing how living life CAN be possible even with loans and that life isnt hopeless <3 much love thank you all

 

[ajs513]

As I calculated out in my previous post, total OOS loan debt plus accrued interest at time of graduation for an OOS student at Penn is $431,000. No one can pay that off. It would actually cost more to completely pay off the loan than to take advantage of IBR, and IBR necessitates paying for at least 20 years.

I know it’s nothing to take lightly. I think my only point is that whether you have a depressed attitude about or not, the debt will still be there. So explore all options and speak with a loan counselor to figure out what the best option is.

 

[WildZoo]

the fact that you are so okay about this gives me hope! i would like to pay off my debt but also still enjoy my life and travel and have a family. i know i wont have the most extravagant lifestyle but i would just like to be happy and comfortable

We'll see how ok I am with it when I'm actually living with it

I mean, I don't have a choice at this point, so I have to be ok with it. It still pains me that I didn't get into my IS school though.

 

[ajs513]

wow this is like a support group and i love everyone being super upfront but also showing how living life CAN be possible even with loans and that life isnt hopeless <3 much love thank you all

I think everyone here is in mostly the same boat. Some with a lot of debt, some with a little less than others, and then us who haven’t even begun to accumulate debt. The vets I work with now pointed out something interesting. While vet school was a little cheaper a decade or two ago, students didn’t seem to talk about debt or loans nearly as much as we do now. It’s a lot of the conversation, and it’s intimidating. The way I think about it, we’re going to be in debt anyway. Why not be a little bit less depressed about it if we can help it?

Then again maybe we won’t be able to help it in four years. I don’t know.

 

[raf2769]

As someone about to attend Penn out of state what is the plan for paying off the debt because I am actually losing sleep thinking about the debt

Don’t think it’s impossible to pay off your loans before then. I believe the average length of time to repay vet school loans is 10 years. My interviewer for St George’s was super up front and told me she paid off her loans in 5 years by just putting off everything expensive in her life, living with her partner, and shoveling all of her income into her loans. Obviously I’m no expert on student loan repayment, and I’m sure 99% of people here aren’t either, but there are so many factors in life after graduation that determine how long it’ll take you to repay your loans. Whether it’s public service loan forgiveness, living like a pauper for a while, income based repayment, having a spouse/SO who will help you out, or enrolling in a flat 10 or 20 year repayment plan, there are a lot of ways to do it. The default rate is very low (a fraction of a percent) so obviously people get by. I’m sure we’ll be no different. But talk to the financial aid department. Nichole is super nice and I’m sure she’ll lend some professional advice that is more reassuring than my advice since I’m basically in your position and the reality of the debt hasn’t hit me yet.

yes - many, many personal factors go into how one pays/how long it takes for someone to pay back their loans, but if you are taking out loans to pay for school and living, specifically at Penn (since this is where both of you guys discussing it are coming here), 10 years is pretty unrealistic in my opinion, without a lot of outside factors.

A. do NOT count on public service loan forgiveness. This is one of those things that will be wonderful if it works out for you, but is definitely not something to count on being there. Other people on here definitely have more experience and thoughts on this than I do

B. If you think you might do an internship/residency after school, you have to consider these years of making a very minimal salary, and you will not be making nearly a dent in repaying your loans during this time, and interest will just be adding up. At least in some specialties you make an awesome salary after you're boarded, but not everyone ends up completely going that route.

As for my plan - I consider myself to be in the debt so high you pay minimal and save to pay the tax at the end of the 25 years. I'm getting married to someone who has a great job (not in the medical field at all) who can help support me and we're both planning on moving back in with my parents after I graduate so we can save and I can work on making a dent in my loans. I've been offered a job at the hospital I used to work at for a great salary that I can't turn down, and the hospital is only 5 minutes from my parent's house, so it's very convenient.

I can't pretend like I have it all figured out, but it's all a start. If either of you have more specific questions about Penn, feel free to dm me or ask in the Penn thread

 

[DVMoftheFuture]

I know it’s nothing to take lightly. I think my only point is that whether you have a depressed attitude about or not, the debt will still be there. So explore all options and speak with a loan counselor to figure out what the best option is.

I feel like I'm not trying to be depressing; I'm just trying to be realistic. You said in your previous post that the average vet student pays off their debt in 10 years. That may be true, but the average vet student also graduates with only about $167,000 in debt. We are talking about bigger numbers, and while it is good to be hopeful and consider all the options, I just don't want someone to get in a situation 10 or 20 years down the road where they didn't realize the reality of what paying that debt off was going to be like.

 

[ajs513]

I feel like I'm not trying to be depressing; I'm just trying to be realistic. You said in your previous post that the average vet student pays off their debt in 10 years. That may be true, but the average vet student also graduates with only about $167,000 in debt. We are talking about bigger numbers, and while it is good to be hopeful and consider all the options, I just don't want someone to get in a situation 10 or 20 years down the road where they didn't realize the reality of what paying that debt off was going to be like.

I don’t really think you’re being depressing. I understand exactly what you mean. Also, I think the 10 year thing may have actually been specific to St. George’s. Regardless, there is so much variability in the factors that determine how you can pay off your loans and how long it’ll take you. I calculated things out and I should be able to pay mine off in 10 years as long as things go the way they’re currently going. I’ve used loan repayment calculators and have gotten the same answer every time. My goal is just to pay off as much as possible as quickly as possible so I can get in with my life. As long as things don’t change, that’s a possibility. But we all know things can change.

 

[WildZoo]

I think everyone here is in mostly the same boat. Some with a lot of debt, some with a little less than others, and then us who haven’t even begun to accumulate debt. The vets I work with now pointed out something interesting. While vet school was a little cheaper a decade or two ago, students didn’t seem to talk about debt or loans nearly as much as we do now. It’s a lot of the conversation, and it’s intimidating. The way I think about it, we’re going to be in debt anyway. Why not be a little bit less depressed about it if we can help it?

Then again maybe we won’t be able to help it in four years. I don’t know.

"A little cheaper" is a huge understatement.

 

[ajs513]

"A little cheaper" is a huge understatement.

Adjusted for inflation it’s a little closer. The first number, for example, adjusts to $42,000. Definitely still cheaper though, and enough that I have heartburn now thinking about it.

 

[WildZoo]

Adjusted for inflation it’s a little closer. The first number, for example, adjusts to $42,000. Definitely still cheaper though, and enough that I have heartburn now thinking about it.

Well the last year there is 2014, so if you're comparing to that it's actually $39k when adjusted, compared to $49k in 2014.

In any case the reason it is talked about so much is the debt:salary ratio is right around 2:1 on average, and the problem is that means there is a huge chunk of people who are in an even worse position than that.

 

[ajs513]

Well the last year there is 2014, so if you're comparing to that it's actually $39k when adjusted, compared to $49k in 2014.

In any case the reason it is talked about so much is the debt:salary ratio is right around 2:1 on average, and the problem is that means there is a huge chunk of people who are in an even worse position than that.

Crap you’re right. Ugh... Also this is something vet schools check to see if students are aware of, like asking in interviews what the biggest issues facing the veterinary profession are. It would be nice if more was done about it though. But that’s a different discussion.

 

[genny]

I think everyone here is in mostly the same boat. Some with a lot of debt, some with a little less than others, and then us who haven’t even begun to accumulate debt. The vets I work with now pointed out something interesting. While vet school was a little cheaper a decade or two ago, students didn’t seem to talk about debt or loans nearly as much as we do now. It’s a lot of the conversation, and it’s intimidating. The way I think about it, we’re going to be in debt anyway. Why not be a little bit less depressed about it if we can help it?

Then again maybe we won’t be able to help it in four years. I don’t know.

I hope you come back to read these posts as you're graduating and still have the same optimism.

 

[ajs513]

I hope you come back to read these posts as you're graduating and still have the same optimism.

Like I said, maybe I won’t be so optimistic in four years. I hope for my own sake that I am. I really really do

 

[SkiOtter]

Crap you’re right. Ugh... Also this is something vet schools check to see if students are aware of, like asking in interviews what the biggest issues facing the veterinary profession are. It would be nice if more was done about it though. But that’s a different discussion.

I mean, I know in at least two interviews I was straight up asked if I knew what the average starting salary was and how much debt I expected to be in.

 

[deleted676737]

Also, don’t forget that it’s not just the base sticker price of vet school tuition and living costs that you have to worry about here, but also interest and capitalization, and those can absolutely be killer.

I’m talking, like, adding tens of thousands of dollars onto the principal when all is said and done. Interest is the reason why my debtload actually continues to increase every month even though I’ve been putting a not insignificant amount of more money towards it than what I’m required to pay.

 

[tinynest]

PS - Sorry for derailing the thread. As a humanities major I get very defensive when I feel like the humanities are getting piled on as somehow being unworthy of study or incapable of producing a viable career. My career before vet school was stable, had a lot of potential for growth, and my max career salary probably would have been about the same as it will be after I graduate with a DVM. The main differences are it would have probably taken me longer to hit career max, I would have hated my life for 30 years, and there is a high probability that I would have rage-quit before retirement and gone to live in a yurt.

Sociology and Art History major here! While I did have to return to school to obtain many of my science prerequisites, I strongly believe my background has made me a much more rounded person, and it's definitely shaped my work as a veterinary technician. Wouldn't change my crazy, roundabout career path for anything.

I feel like I'm not trying to be depressing; I'm just trying to be realistic. You said in your previous post that the average vet student pays off their debt in 10 years. That may be true, but the average vet student also graduates with only about $167,000 in debt. We are talking about bigger numbers, and while it is good to be hopeful and consider all the options, I just don't want someone to get in a situation 10 or 20 years down the road where they didn't realize the reality of what paying that debt off was going to be like.

This is a sad reality that I've struggled with for years before making the decision to apply to veterinary school. I'll be 31 when I start this summer, and I know the debt:income ratio will be overwhelming. I guess I've just accepted this as something I will have to deal with if I want to further my career in a field I care about so much.

 

[DVMDream]

I put nearly $7k into my student loans yearly..... that doesn't cover the interest payments. I can't pay more than that, I don't make enough. I'd have to dump >25% of my post tax take home pay into my loans to only cover the interest and still not touch the principal .....oh and I'm actually pulling in a "high" salary compared to most vets.

This is the realistic point of view people need. I'd love to put a security door up at my house, but I can't afford it. I want to do some additional home decorating/upgrading.... can't afford it. Even something as simple as buying bar stools for my kitchen island....can't afford.

Welcome to the career where you make a "good salary " per the government but you get no tax breaks because they did away with any you might get and you make enough for them to take a lot from you. You'll feel like you're treading water most months and some you'll struggle.... paying off the loans/saving for taxes? Those are hysterical proposals... maybe with an SO but alone, don't count on it, not without working yourself into burn out.

 

[ajs513]

I put nearly $7k into my student loans yearly..... that doesn't cover the interest payments. I can't pay more than that, I don't make enough. I'd have to dump >25% of my post tax take home pay into my loans to only cover the interest and still not touch the principal .....oh and I'm actually pulling in a "high" salary compared to most vets.

This is the realistic point of view people need. I'd love to put a security door up at my house, but I can't afford it. I want to do some additional home decorating/upgrading.... can't afford it. Even something as simple as buying bar stools for my kitchen island....can't afford.

Welcome to the career where you make a "good salary " per the government but you get no tax breaks because they did away with any you might get and you make enough for them to take a lot from you. You'll feel like you're treading water most months and some you'll struggle.... paying off the loans/saving for taxes? Those are hysterical proposals... maybe with an SO but alone, don't count on it, not without working yourself into burn out.

I figured I’d ask an actual vet going through the struggle of paying back loans. But, say you make good money for a GP ($125,000 for example). Is it feasible to live like you make $60,000 and put everything else into loans? Is that a thing people do?

 

[WildZoo]

I figured I’d ask an actual vet going through the struggle of paying back loans. But, say you make good money for a GP ($125,000 for example). Is it feasible to live like you make $60,000 and put everything else into loans? Is that a thing people do?

Theoretically you could but you're not going to be making $125,000 right out of school

 

[battie]

I figured I’d ask an actual vet going through the struggle of paying back loans. But, say you make good money for a GP ($125,000 for example). Is it feasible to live like you make $60,000 and put everything else into loans? Is that a thing people do?

Where would a GP be making 125k right out of graduation. In Denver, even ER doesn't start that high and in Chicago, the GPs are starting around 92k. Then you have to consider the cost of living. In Denver, my sister's mortgage was 1100 per month for a 750 square foot condo. That's ~25% of your 60k right there if you throw in any yearly home maintenance.

 

[DVMDream]

I figured I’d ask an actual vet going through the struggle of paying back loans. But, say you make good money for a GP ($125,000 for example). Is it feasible to live like you make $60,000 and put everything else into loans? Is that a thing people do?

I mean.... you aren't going to be taking home much more than $60k on a $120k salary ...... taxes are a bitch.

 

[ajs513]

Where would a GP be making 125k right out of graduation. In Denver, even ER doesn't start that high and in Chicago, the GPs are starting around 92k. Then you have to consider the cost of living. In Denver, my sister's mortgage was 1100 per month for a 750 square foot condo. That's ~25% of your 60k right there if you throw in any yearly home maintenance.

I’m not saying just right out of graduation. In my area, a lot of jobs are available in the $100,000-$130,000 range. I’ve spoken with some new vets who landed jobs in the area for over $100,000.

Anyway, the typical rule for housing is no more than 30% of gross income. I have a long history of living in a house that only makes $60,000 a year, so that to me is doable. I’m just trying to figure out the rest.