Multiple acceptances - Do vet schools find out and offer merit to protect yield?

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I figured I’d ask an actual vet going through the struggle of paying back loans. But, say you make good money for a GP ($125,000 for example). Is it feasible to live like you make $60,000 and put everything else into loans? Is that a thing people do?

So what I mean by taxes are a bitch... the short answer is no. It isn't feasible to "live like you make $60k and put everything else into loans" because "everything else" will be going to Uncle Sam for federal income tax and social security that your ass will never see.

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I mean.... you aren't going to be taking home much more than $60k on a $120k salary ...... taxes are a bitch.
In my area, you’d net between $80,000 and $90,000 depending on marital status.
 
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Good luck on that. I can promise, you won't.
I’m not sure how. Everything I’ve looked at including asking a few people who make around that have said $80,000 to $90,000. Not that I’m asking random people. These are people I’m close with.
 
I probably made just shy of $120k last year between picking up some extra shifts.... after taxes I barely squeaked by with $70k in take home income.... and as a tentative "well you probably overpaid then".... yes, based on my brief inputting of taxes this year, I did overpay.... by $200.... drop in the bucket.
 
I’m not saying just right out of graduation. In my area, a lot of jobs are available in the $100,000-$130,000 range. I’ve spoken with some new vets who landed jobs in the area for over $100,000.

Anyway, the typical rule for housing is no more than 30% of gross income. I have a long history of living in a house that only makes $60,000 a year, so that to me is doable. I’m just trying to figure out the rest.
Kinda depends on what your debt burden is. Say it's $200k. If your salary is $100k, then your take home is about $70k in PA. You'd be putting roughly half your take home pay per month into your loans to pay them off in 10 years. That leaves you with around $2500-3000 a month to live on. This is one of the scenarios where that ends up costing less in the long run than doing one of the income based plans.
 
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If someone took home 125k, they potentially have around 80k left after withholding. Next step would be to compare that to the cost of living for your area. One measure there could potentially be the median household income for that zip code. A person should have a reasonable shot at living at the average income and being able to pay off your loans with any income in excess of that, a lot of people are living under the average. It becomes much easier with a spouse contributing an income also. I know people attacking student loans in this way, paying a very significant portion of their income and eliminating student loans fairly quickly. If you graduate in the 100-150K debt range, it is a viable strategy. If you have 400K, the math is still not going to work out.
 
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Kinda depends on what your debt burden is. Say it's $200k. If your salary is $100k, then your take home is about $70k in PA. You'd be putting roughly half your take home pay per month into your loans to pay them off in 10 years. That leaves you with around $2500-3000 a month to live on. This is one of the scenarios where that ends up costing less in the long run than doing one of the income based plans.
I think my situation has a better outlook since I’ll have my SO’s salary as well, so that’ll help a lot. Once we get married that changes tax brackets. My ideal scenario would be to live off of mainly her salary and then most of mine would pay off loans.
 
I think my situation has a better outlook since I’ll have my SO’s salary as well, so that’ll help a lot. Once we get married that changes tax brackets. My ideal scenario would be to live off of mainly her salary and then most of mine would pay off loans.
Well yes, that does put you in a better spot, which DVMD mentioned earlier.
 
And not to get too political..... but Trump just shat on the "middle class" which is technically what we still are despite discussing 6 figure salaries with his new tax bill. I should be receiving a MUCH larger refund this year, but his new tax bill eliminated most everything I could have claimed and increased MY tax burden while decreasing the tax burden of the 1%.

Now hopefully they will vote to bring back the housing tax credit so I can still get that, but that is currently being debated and if they don't pass it.... buying a house will bring you no tax benefit like it used to.

Oh and student tax breaks..... those are completely gone. No one can claim those. They used to be able to be claimed last year, unless you made a certain amount... which almost every vet does, so yeah another way we were getting shat on. Not anymore because now no one gets this benefit.
 
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I’m not saying just right out of graduation

Then when? You only have 25 years max to get this paid or save up for the taxes. We're taught in first year the average veterinarian (on a national level) hits their peak salary of ~90k ten to twelve years into practice. That leaves only 10 to 15 years to milk that salary for all its worth after your debt has increased due to interest.

Sure, the peeps that sit at the average of 167k in graduating debt (not even full debt, just what they have at graduation) could probs make that work. But 20% of vet students have >200k in debt, and that percentage of students is only going to go up, not down.

For a significant chunk of students, acting as if you're living on 60k a year won't work, particularly in the high cost of living areas.
 
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I probably made just shy of $120k last year between picking up some extra shifts.... after taxes I barely squeaked by with $70k in take home income.... and as a tentative "well you probably overpaid then".... yes, based on my brief inputting of taxes this year, I did overpay.... by $200.... drop in the bucket.

Ummm. Do you live in New York City? How in the world are you getting that murdered by taxes?
 
I think my situation has a better outlook since I’ll have my SO’s salary as well, so that’ll help a lot. Once we get married that changes tax brackets. My ideal scenario would be to live off of mainly her salary and then most of mine would pay off loans.
Wow I thought you were defending your point from the standpoint of being alone. But you’ve disappointed me, you had a whole extra salary laying around this whole time, which I feel makes most situations involving debt less burdensome.

I FEEL DUPED. :sendoff:
 
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Then when? You only have 25 years max to get this paid or save up for the taxes. We're taught in first year the average veterinarian (on a national level) hits their peak salary of ~90k ten to twelve years into practice. That leaves only 10 to 15 years to milk that salary for all its worth after your debt has increased due to interest.

Sure, the peeps that sit at the average of 167k in graduating debt (not even full debt, just what they have at graduation) could probs make that work. But 20% of vet students have >200k in debt, and that percentage of students is only going to go up, not down.

For a significant chunk of students, acting as if you're living on 60k a year won't work, particularly in the high cost of living areas.
I’ve asked a few relief vets I worked with, and a good number of them (who are only a few years into their careers) said they had just received offers in the $125,000 ballpark and they were just working relief until their contracts kicked in. Some of them had worked emergency for a couple years and networked in the meantime working relief once in a while. Of course this isn’t the same for everyone, but it’s worked for them. Not saying I’ll absolutely have that happen for me, but it’s just something I’ve seen and have thought about.
 
I make $91k before taxes (and without picking up any extra work)....

That means per month (post-tax and health insurance) I bring home about $4,100.

Mortgage... $1500
Private student loan from undergrad... $450
Fed student loans on IBR.... $544
Car payment.... $320
Car insurance... $120
Electricity/gas/utilities/etc.... ~$550 (this goes up/down depending on time of year).
Credit cards (I try to not use these but have to on occasion, like I bought a new pair of glasses for the first time in a decade)..... $250-300

These are monthly costs.

Granted not everyone will have all of these costs.

Yes, there are ways I can save here. But these are typical costs for most people. Once the car is paid off that will help. Once the private loans are paid that will help. The credit cards being paid off (which they have been as recently as a couple months ago) will help. Overall, though, you can see how it gets very tight. I haven't even added in anything for food/clothing/other necessities.
 
Wow I thought you were defending your point from the standpoint of being alone. But you’ve disappointed me, you had a whole extra salary laying around this whole time, which I feel makes most situations involving debt less burdensome.

I FEEL DUPED. :sendoff:
I’m sorry!! :( I was mainly trying to figure out if things were feasible while being alone. Then when people started essentially saying I’m screwed, i brought up that extra point.
 
Wow I thought you were defending your point from the standpoint of being alone. But you’ve disappointed me, you had a whole extra salary laying around this whole time, which I feel makes most situations involving debt less burdensome.

I FEEL DUPED. :sendoff:
Full disclosure, I am also married so if I seem less panicked about the state of my life it is 1) because I'm in denial and 2) because I married a mechanical engineer

There are no guarantees in life though so I've always looked at things as such...I want to make sure I will be ok even if I don't have his income to depend on
 
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As I calculated out in my previous post, total OOS loan debt plus accrued interest at time of graduation for an OOS student at Penn is $431,000. No one can pay that off. It would actually cost more to completely pay off the loan than to take advantage of IBR, and IBR necessitates paying for at least 20 years.
It is just bonkers that anyone would look at that number and be even remotely ok with that. That is predatory of schools to charge that to the poor students (like those in this thread) that just don’t get it.
 
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Trump. Before he changed the tax laws, my husband and I were getting a refund of several thousand dollars. We have to pay about $8000 this year.

I got $3k back last year, I was relieved to see I was going to get anything back this year considering the number of people I have heard owing >$5-10k, heck know of some that have to pay $20-30k back in taxes. I couldn't even imagine.
 
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Full disclosure, I am also married so if I seem less panicked about the state of my life it is 1) because I'm in denial and 2) because I married a mechanical engineer

There are no guarantees in life though so I've always looked at things as such...I want to make sure I will be ok even if I don't have is income to depend on
Yeah it’s just sad I feel like everyone who seemingly manages debtload has another person to rely on, whether they actually end up needing all the money that extra person can give it just bums me out. Like what if I’m alone forever...I still want to be a vet and such...
 
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And how are you no longer getting student loan or mortgage interest deductions? You have the worst tax person I've ever heard of.
 
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I’m sorry!! :( I was mainly trying to figure out if things were feasible while being alone. Then when people started essentially saying I’m screwed, i brought up that extra point.

It can be feasible, I think. I mean, yes, I could probably be sitting at the ER clinic 30 minutes away right now working a shift instead of chilling on my sofa with the cat, but I can't work non-stop. Not because I physically can't. My physical ability to do so is fine, but because emotionally and mentally I can't. I can't work 7 days a week, 355 days per year (yes I gave myself only 10 days off here). I can't do it. I know I can't because when I was working long hours and many days I would start dreaming about how to drive my car into a wall on my way to work. I didn't want to die, I just wanted to be injured just enough that I would be forced to take time off. That is how bad this career can mess with your mental well-being. So, yes, I do think it is feasible, physically, to work enough to make it "work out" I do NOT think it is feasible from a mental health standpoint.
 
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Yeah it’s just sad I feel like everyone who seemingly manages debtload has another person to rely on, whether they actually end up needing all the money that extra person can give it just bums me out. Like what if I’m alone forever...I still want to be a vet and such...
People still do it. Granted IBR and PAYE haven't been around long enough for anyone to hit forgiveness so that will be interesting to see.

I'm not sure I would be able to justify following the career path I want to if I didn't have another income source though. Ya girl isn't gonna be making 120k like...ever.
 
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Trump. Before he changed the tax laws, my husband and I were getting a refund of several thousand dollars. We have to pay about $8000 this year.

Estimating your tax burden by what your early tax refund is incredibly misleading. The withholding table changes are probably what has resulted in the reversal of getting a refund vs paying in. You should never want to get a tax refund. With such a large reversal, I also imagine you live in a state with a large income tax that you can no longer deduct from your federal return. But overall, you’d have to compare you’re overall tax rate rather than just your tax return.
 
Yeah it’s just sad I feel like everyone who seemingly manages debtload has another person to rely on, whether they actually end up needing all the money that extra person can give it just bums me out. Like what if I’m alone forever...I still want to be a vet and such...
You can be alone forever and still be a vet! You just won't be able to adopt more than 2 cats. Those lil guys get expensive with their FORLs and CKD.
 
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And how are you no longer getting student loan or mortgage interest deductions? You have the worst tax person I've ever heard of.

Heck student loan interest deduction doesn't exist for anyone now because Trump, but even last year when it DID still exist, those who made more than $60k (if I remember correctly) weren't allow to claim it as a deduction.
 
You can be alone forever and still be a vet! You just won't be able to adopt more than 2 cats. Those lil guys get expensive with their FORLs and CKD.
The first order of my older kitty's prescription food was not through the student program and I about had a heart attack...thank goodness for the 50% off going forward
 
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Estimating your tax burden by what your early tax refund is incredibly misleading. The withholding table changes are probably what has resulted in the reversal of getting a refund vs paying in. You should never want to get a tax refund. With such a large reversal, I also imagine you live in a state with a large income tax that you can no longer deduct from your federal return. But overall, you’d have to compare you’re overall tax rate rather than just your tax return.

No, it is the change in tax laws that were created by Trump for this year in particular that has killed almost everyone in the middle class. You should see the threads on this on some of the facebook pages. It isn't just affecting vets either, it is killing EVERYONE. It is awful.
 
People still do it. Granted IBR and PAYE haven't been around long enough for anyone to hit forgiveness so that will be interesting to see.

I'm not sure I would be able to justify following the career path I want to if I didn't have another income source though. Ya girl isn't gonna be making 120k like...ever.
The bottom half of your message depresses me.
 
Just for reference on the IBR plans... I’ll owe around 140k when I graduate, and if I’m married with two kids it’s substancially less money for even me to do IBR and pay the taxes at the end. I want to say it was like $50k cheaper than the standard 10 year plan on the VIN calculator, so enough I couldn’t make it up by just paying it off as fast as possible. There’s no way it’s not going to be way cheaper to go IBR on 400k in debt, even with having an SO helping.
 
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You can be alone forever and still be a vet! You just won't be able to adopt more than 2 cats. Those lil guys get expensive with their FORLs and CKD.
That’s okay, having so many throughout my childhood has made me realize I’d be okay with less, not none but definitely less. I’d like maybe a dog and a cat and I’m good.
 
The bottom half of your message depresses me.
That is why even on interview days when I'm supposed to be selling my school I tell people to keep in mind that the amount of debt they have can limit their financial ability to follow the path they want. It does you no good to come here wanting to be a zoo vet if at the end of it you can't afford to be a zoo vet, you know? I love it here but I'm fortunate that I only had to pay OOS tuition for one year.
 
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Estimating your tax burden by what your early tax refund is incredibly misleading. The withholding table changes are probably what has resulted in the reversal of getting a refund vs paying in. You should never want to get a tax refund. With such a large reversal, I also imagine you live in a state with a large income tax that you can no longer deduct from your federal return. But overall, you’d have to compare you’re overall tax rate rather than just your tax return.

And I HATE when people state the bolded. Yes, I get it. If you get a refund that means you gave the government an interest free loan for the year.... blah, blah, blah, blah, blah..... yeah, when you are struggling paycheck to paycheck like the vast majority of the world and like I am.... the last thing you want to see is that you OWE taxes. I know ideally you want that number to be $0... neither owe or get a refund but damn if I have to pick owe vs refund since it is near impossible to get it to exactly $0.... I'd pick refund every time. I can't afford to OWE the government MORE than I am already paying in.
 
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Just for reference on the IBR plans... I’ll owe around 140k when I graduate, and if I’m married with two kids it’s substancially less money for even me to do IBR and pay the taxes at the end. I want to say it was like $50k cheaper than the standard 10 year plan on the VIN calculator, so enough I couldn’t make it up by just paying it off as fast as possible. There’s no way it’s not going to be way cheaper to go IBR on 400k in debt, even with having an SO helping.
My only thought about paying off faster vs paying off with IBR is that if you pay it off sooner your don’t have that debt burden moving forward. You don’t have to factor in your loan payments when thinking about if you can afford other payments. It’s a bad way to be, but I like to have peace of mind with one less thing on my plate. Even if I can just get my monthly payments to a more manageable level, that would be nice.

I know I’m getting way ahead of myself because I don’t even HAVE debt yet, but I don’t wan to be hit in the face with it later.
 
Heck student loan interest deduction doesn't exist for anyone now because Trump, but even last year when it DID still exist, those who made more than $60k (if I remember correctly) weren't allow to claim it as a deduction.

There weren't any significant changes to the student loan deductions following the change in tax law. You are mistaken in how the law has changed.
 
There weren't any significant changes to the student loan deductions following the change in tax law. You are mistaken in how the law has changed.

You can deduct student loan interest if:

  • You paid interest on a qualified student loan in the tax year
  • You are legally obligated to pay interest on a qualified student loan
  • Your filing status is not married filing separately
  • You and your spouse, if filing jointly, cannot be claimed as dependents on someone else’s tax return
  • You are a single filer with income under $65,000, however, your full tax deduction phases out (is gradually reduced) between $65,000 and $80,000 ($135,000 and $165,000 married filing jointly). If your income falls above those limits, it is not deductible at all.
There you have it.... the vast majority of vets can NOT deduct student loan interest... we make too MUCH money. It has been this way forever.
 
My only thought about paying off faster vs paying off with IBR is that if you pay it off sooner your don’t have that debt burden moving forward. You don’t have to factor in your loan payments when thinking about if you can afford other payments. It’s a bad way to be, but I like to have peace of mind with one less thing on my plate. Even if I can just get my monthly payments to a more manageable level, that would be nice.

I know I’m getting way ahead of myself because I don’t even HAVE debt yet, but I don’t wan to be hit in the face with it later.
I'll be the devils advocate here. If you are concerned about your debt load, why are you going to Penn? Did you apply to/get accepted to any other programs? Penn is nearly the most expensive option.
 
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Of course this isn’t the same for everyone,
Yup. We can all find examples of people who fell into a unique position and are making far more than the average......but "the average" means there are also a bunch of vets who are making far less than the average. No one likes to think they're going to make $20,000 less than the average, but somehow we all think we'll be the ones to make $20,000 more than the average. I think anyone who makes plans based on those dreams (of earning far more than the average) is foolhardy.

And why have only a few people mentioned the cost of living? A $125,000 income in San Francisco won't go as far as a $80,000 income in Austin, so that means the vet in Austin will have more money to put towards paying off debt.
 
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I’ve asked a few relief vets I worked with, and a good number of them (who are only a few years into their careers) said they had just received offers in the $125,000 ballpark and they were just working relief until their contracts kicked in. Some of them had worked emergency for a couple years and networked in the meantime working relief once in a while. Of course this isn’t the same for everyone, but it’s worked for them. Not saying I’ll absolutely have that happen for me, but it’s just something I’ve seen and have thought about.

But that's my point. These few people you know aren't the average graduating vet. The average single vet won't be pulling this off because the average graduate doesn't go directly into relief and is, on average, making 70-75k salary. I thought you were looking for what the average graduate is going to do, not an idyllic 125k magic job out the door.
 
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I'll be the devils advocate here. If you are concerned about your debt load, why are you going to Penn? Did you apply to/get accepted to any other programs? Penn is nearly the most expensive option.
It made the most sense with my current situation. I live in philly anyway, my SO got into a Masters program in Philly, and the tuition ends up being close enough to other schools’ out of state. I have a lot of family in the area as a support system which is also very important. Lots of new babies coming into the family that I want to be around for when they’re growing up. Even if I take on more debt, it’s not the difference between $150,000 and $300,000. It’s much less of a difference than that. I can live with my SO as well and keep our relationship exactly as it’s been without going long distance for four years. That was a big factor.
 
You can deduct student loan interest if:

  • You paid interest on a qualified student loan in the tax year
  • You are legally obligated to pay interest on a qualified student loan
  • Your filing status is not married filing separately
  • You and your spouse, if filing jointly, cannot be claimed as dependents on someone else’s tax return
  • You are a single filer with income under $65,000, however, your full tax deduction phases out (is gradually reduced) between $65,000 and $80,000 ($135,000 and $165,000 married filing jointly). If your income falls above those limits, it is not deductible at all.
There you have it.... the vast majority of vets can NOT deduct student loan interest... we make too MUCH money. It has been this way forever.
Oh, my mistake. When you previously stated that student debt tax breaks were gone and that no one could claim them, I assumed by that you meant they were gone and no one could claim them. I additionally find it hard to believe that the vast majority of married vets have a joint income over 165,000.
 
But that's my point. These few people you know aren't the average graduating vet. The average single vet won't be pulling this off because the average graduate doesn't go directly into relief and is, on average, making 70-75k salary. I thought you were looking for what the average graduate is going to do, not an idyllic 125k magic job out the door.
I meant more along the lines of someone in my area. I said the $125,000 because that’s a good salary where I live and can be achieved, maybe not right out of vet school, but soon after.
 
Oh, my mistake. When you previously stated that student debt tax breaks were gone and that no one could claim them, I assumed by that you meant they were gone and no one could claim them. I additionally find it hard to believe that the vast majority of married vets have a joint income over 165,000.

Most of the ones in the facebook pages I frequent mention how they can't get this tax deduction even the married ones. I am going to hazard to guess because they probably file "married filing separately" because if you file married then the government take your husband's income into account when figuring out your PAYE or REPAY payment which kind of defeats the purpose of these programs.
 
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It made the most sense with my current situation. I live in philly anyway, my SO got into a Masters program in Philly, and the tuition ends up being close enough to other schools’ out of state. I have a lot of family in the area as a support system which is also very important. Lots of new babies coming into the family that I want to be around for when they’re growing up. Even if I take on more debt, it’s not the difference between $150,000 and $300,000. It’s much less of a difference than that. I can live with my SO as well and keep our relationship exactly as it’s been without going long distance for four years. That was a big factor.
That's fair enough. You could conceivably shave $100K off by going somewhere else, but you aren't going to end up clearing that amount with travel, etc.
 
Oh, my mistake. When you previously stated that student debt tax breaks were gone and that no one could claim them, I assumed by that you meant they were gone and no one could claim them. I additionally find it hard to believe that the vast majority of married vets have a joint income over 165,000.

And yes, there was a mistake there by me as well, there had been previous discussion and it was actually a part of the tax bill to eliminate this deduction entirely, after much push-back they decided not to eliminate it, but I probably wouldn't rely on using this deduction in our field anyway and I wouldn't rely on it to last, it will probably be eliminated at some point by some *****ic politician with more money than I'd ever know what to do with.
 
Yup. We can all find examples of people who fell into a unique position and are making far more than the average......but "the average" means there are also a bunch of vets who are making far less than the average. No one likes to think they're going to make $20,000 less than the average, but somehow we all think we'll be the ones to make $20,000 more than the average. I think anyone who makes plans based on those dreams (of earning far more than the average) is foolhardy.

And why have only a few people mentioned the cost of living? A $125,000 income in San Francisco won't go as far as a $80,000 income in Austin, so that means the vet in Austin will have more money to put towards paying off debt.
Yea I know. I was mainly asking for a best case scenario. As in, if you make toward the higher end, is it feasible to pay off your debt much faster.
 
That's fair enough. You could conceivably shave $100K off by going somewhere else, but you aren't going to end up clearing that amount with travel, etc.
I ran the numbers and I’ll end up with around $250,000 before interest. That’s if I don’t apply for and get any scholarships. It’s definitely not a low amount of debt, but it could be worse. Especially since I’m making this decision for many other reasons than just money.
 
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