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Besides UA, LIU, and Tech, what other universities are vying to open a veterinary program in the US?
New vet schools
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I don’t at all condone the opening of more and more vet schools whatsoever, especially with the no teaching hospital loophole. However, in the trenches, the market is currently absolutely supportive of more vets...for now. Many private SA GP practices can’t find anyone to interview let alone hire and associates can have their pick easily. We all know this can change with the economy, of course.
The whole profession is a mess, though. AVMA, COE, etc...it’s all a bunch of people that either truly have no idea how their base feels or choose to ignore them, neither of which is a good thing. It’s all a corrupted system right now and I have no idea how it will ever be fixed. Depressing. But as long as there are students clamoring to apply and spend their limitless federal loan dollars, I see no incentive for anything to change
The whole profession is a mess, though. AVMA, COE, etc...it’s all a bunch of people that either truly have no idea how their base feels or choose to ignore them, neither of which is a good thing. It’s all a corrupted system right now and I have no idea how it will ever be fixed. Depressing. But as long as there are students clamoring to apply and spend their limitless federal loan dollars, I see no incentive for anything to change
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I'm just pretty sick of private schools charging **** tons of money and not even using that money to build a teaching hospital. It's gross. Preying on people who are desperate to join the profession, and I really feel like part of having an accreditation process should be protecting prospective students from predatory programs.
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The profession is screwed and the AVMA who is supposed to be our voice actually doesn't actually care about the veterinarians they serve or their profession in general. If they did, they would be making a hard and forceful attempt at stopping these schools from developing and opening. Or they'd be lobbying the government to end student loans with no cap. Anything to stop people from going up to and over half a million dollars in debt for a career that literally can not support that.
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Grinds my gears. Those schools, while ridiculously expensive, also have fully functioning teaching hospitals. No reason a school without a teaching hospital should be charging almost $60k a year. Where the heck is the money going?
Inside veterinary education at Long Island University
New veterinary program at center of private institution's rebirth, officials say
news.vin.com
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My former vet school charged me a smidge less than $40k per year for total CoA, not just tuition, as an IS student. Even for OOS, it's $60k-65k altogether per year. LIU, meanwhile, is getting away with charging $55k in tuition alone when there is no teaching hospital to staff and maintain. They don't even have the excuse of any future plans to build one, either. There is just no reason to charge that much money.Grinds my gears. Those schools, while ridiculously expensive, also have fully functioning teaching hospitals. No reason a school without a teaching hospital should be charging almost $60k a year. Where the heck is the money going?
Inside veterinary education at Long Island University
New veterinary program at center of private institution's rebirth, officials say
The students are the ones who ultimately lose out and, honestly, it's really quite difficult to see this as anything but predatory. It actually makes me angry given the current debt and mental health crises the profession is already grappling with.
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Yup. They also failed to mention that both Cornell and Penn provide lower tuition for IS students, Cornell in particular is significantly lower IIRC.
It is my understanding that they have been lobbying the government for a solution to various parts of the student loan mess. But lobbying can only do so much in such a broken city, especially when dealing with a topic as complex as student loans.
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Bumping again. Looks like Texas Tech is aiming to matriculate their first vet school class in 2021, meaning that they'll be accepting applications for this current cycle (c/o 2025). Mostly, I'm wondering what COA will look like; I am, at least, a smidge less aggravated by the existence of this school versus something like LIU since it is a public program and presumably IS tuition will not be totally unreasonable.
Also, their website is up now: Texas Tech University School of Veterinary Medicine – Texas Tech University is establishing Texas’ first veterinary school in 100 years. Located in Amarillo – the heart of our nation’s livestock industry – this innovative School of Veterinary Medicine is purpose-built from the ground up.
Also, their website is up now: Texas Tech University School of Veterinary Medicine – Texas Tech University is establishing Texas’ first veterinary school in 100 years. Located in Amarillo – the heart of our nation’s livestock industry – this innovative School of Veterinary Medicine is purpose-built from the ground up.
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I haven’t found anything that says that specifically, but given their reasoning for opening the vet school and what they hope to accomplish I feel it makes sense they would only take IS, for their first class at least.
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You would think, but every school that has opened since Western U. about 15 years ago have used the same excuse to open. Most of them have between 25-50% out of state classes.
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[TLDR warning - I started and .... um ... just kept going.]
Yeah, a smidge less aggravated, I agree.
But still aggravated.
Sure, there's a "need" for more veterinarians right now. But one problem is that it is not turning into a straightforward supply and demand situation. The demand is there, but in classic terms that should drive salaries up ... and it hasn't driven them up significantly. Putting more vets into the field, on the other hand, will have unmanageable costs for many of those new vets and allow salaries to continue to remain stagnant - not a very tenable situation. At least from where I'm sitting, the 'need' for more vets looks both real and somewhat artificial: many of those places that want a vet just don't have the resources to support one at today's cost of educating a vet AND the cost of doing good medicine AND the requirement to provide (or at least recommend) gold standard medicine, but many places do have a legitimate need but new grads simply can't afford to take the job.
You need to start by understanding why the demand exists before you can provide good answers:
1) More specialty care. As more and more DVMs move into specialty care, the percentage of graduates doing GP medicine has gone down. This has left GP practices struggling to fill positions without simultaneously driving the salaries of those positions up to attract more people.
2) Cost of becoming a vet. As the cost has gone up absurdly, it's made it untenable to become a rural area vet (either GP or LA or mixed) for many vets and/or many rural areas.
I feel like these schools constantly ignore the 'why' and instead just say "we've got a shortage, let's make more vets!" More vets might be the answer to #1, but it definitely isn't the answer to #2.
I think the industry needs a lot of changes to address the multi-factorial problem.
1) Cost of education needs to go down. This is one area more schools might actually help - another supply/demand thing. More schools should mean less demand for any individual school, which means schools feeling pressure to lower their COA to attract students. Alternatively - and better - if the federal govt would quit saying "sure, we'll hand out unlimited amounts of loans to anyone" and turn off the automatic flow of money, schools would actually have to start being smarter about budgeting and using money.
I am not sympathetic to schools with regard to the teaching hospital debate. A teaching hospital OUGHT to be (at least nearly) self-sufficient money-wise. If it's not at least nearly breaking even, then it's teaching students an unsustainable model anyway and either needs to be re-managed or was never in an appropriate geographical region to begin with. So the whole "we want a vet school but it's too expensive to put a teaching hospital here" argument, to me, is crap. You want a vet school, you should have a teaching hospital. Alternatively, you need to have much more aggressive standards-measurement to make sure students really are getting a uniform education - NAVLE ain't it. NAVLE is an utter joke - ensuring that students everywhere can pass a multiple-choice test with crappy questions from a few decades back in areas of medicine they'll never practice! Yay! That's really serving our animals and animal owners well!
2) Educate clients on costs. We need to increase the prices of doing business in the GP world so that GPs can make more money. The GP world keeps doing loss-leader spays, or 'free' exams that teach the client that the value of exam is nothing, or ... that sort of thing. That stuff all teaches the client that vet care is cheap to provide. Give something away and all you do is tell people that its value is $0. Clients need to know what they're paying for and why it's a benefit to them and their pet and how paying for it increases their pet's quality of life. To me, this is a HUGE area the AVMA has .... well, they haven't even fallen short, they've just utterly failed to even accept the task.
3) Make GPs more efficient. GPs need to become more efficient so they can drive their overall production up as an adjunct to increasing their ACTs. This might mean things like more GPs joining 'groups' where they are allowed to maintain their individuality while gaining the benefits of scale (centralized labs, centralized product purchasing/distribution, centralized IT / EMR management, etc.). I am all in favor of unique, individual GPs - but it's hard for them to compete financially with the Banfields of the world. So rather than just stubbornly ignore the challenge, they need to find ways to fight it while retaining their uniqueness and individuality. There are plenty of groups already doing this.
4) I haven't figured out how to verbalize this or what it practically means, but for a long time I've had a suspicion that we need to take a step back from the ever-increasing quality of care being delivered. Gold standard has - even in my short time as a vet - advanced significantly. I realize it might make some people blink and think I'm crazy, but I think that we shouldn't assume that's a good thing. Again, not sure how to verbalize this, and it is very much an intuitive thought at this point rather than an objective, rationalized, supported thing but ......... if we deliver 75% of the current level of care, we can do it for substantially less cost and we can make it accessible for substantially more pets, increasing the overall pet population quality of life. As we deliver higher and higher levels of care, the cost goes up, which makes it accessible to fewer. That doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't offer high levels of care (I'd be out of work if we didn't), but we need state boards and the industry to be generally more tolerant of a somewhat lower standard of care, I think. We need to accept that it's ok to have a GP clinic that provides very basic care, minimal diagnostics, and operates at a lower cost that allows clients to receive some care and the clinic's owners to still profit by not investing in very expensive instruments and medications and training to use them.
5) Limited licensure. I still think this is part of the future of vet med. Yes, I understand why all the LA and Equine people oppose it, since half of them transition into SA medicine at some point. But vet med is becoming too broad with too much required expertise to continue to try and learn enough in 4 years. The type of medicine I practice is so vastly different than what an equine doc practices. Most couldn't even remotely do my job (at least not at the same capacity), and I sure as hell wouldn't even know where to start on theirs. So why the heck do our licenses allow for exactly that? Doesn't make any sense.
6) .... other creative solutions. Multi-factorial problems require multi-factorial solutions. This is one reason that the "gosh, we need more rural vets, let's make more vet schools" thing bugs the hell out of me. Programs like some states are doing where they pay the loans for new vets working in rural areas are great, though insufficient and under-funded (or outright unfunded).
Kudos to Texas for looking to Calgary as an example, but I am still super suspicious that the people planning this stuff just plain don't GET IT. Sure, that pretty looking map that shows all those counties underserved by veterinarians is neat ... but how, precisely, do they expect those counties to support a veterinarian? State programs to offset the loans of most of them? I don't see that happening....
They want one vet to go out there who is available 24x7 for some rural county for a meager income? This isn't the days of James Herriot, and so long as vets can go make 2x+ in urban settings they are going to do that. A telling stat that Texas advertises, as far as I'm concerned: "In seven years of graduates [at University of Calgary], 98% have stayed in the region while 63% accepted private practice positions that serve rural areas." I'd <REALLY> like to see - and find suspiciously absent - how many of those 63% are STILL practicing in those areas? It makes me suspicious that the first part of the quote boasts how many have stayed "in the region" (what do they define as the 'region'?) while the second part highlights how many only INITIALLY went into rural area practice. They make the two seem like similar things, but they aren't. If you take a pre-UCalgary map of veterinarian distribution in Alberta and then a contemporary map, I'd be curious to see how much it's changed. Another set of maps showing age-distribution of vets then/now also would be interesting. Their sound bites don't convince me that they've really succeeded in getting significant numbers of younger vets to go meet those rural needs and stay there, and I doubt Texas will be successful in that either. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope so.
Not necessarily? Their goal is to keep people IN Texas, but that doesn't mean that people have to COME from Texas to accomplish that goal, yanno? Their goal is to graduate people who stay there and especially stay and practice rural medicine. Doesn't mean they can't accept some pale-skinned never-seen-the-sun Minnesotan who has an interest in doing that.
Be interesting to see if they can attract enough IS-only candidates! I bet they'll lean heavily toward IS candidates and then look outside to fill seats.
Have they said how many seats they expect to fill total?
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Right. Because at the end of the day, if you planned for 100 seats (or whatever), you gotta fill 100 seats because that's what your budget demands.
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I really really really like this. I've had to explain to people in my admissions department when they're trying to get me to sell prospective students on the "need" for more vets. In some cases, sure. The numbers they're quoting? No way. I'm glad we have a very low unemployment rate and in California, the salaries are pretty darn good. That doesn't excuse opening more schools imo. Half the things they're telling us to try to draw us in to dairy medicine do not make sense at all. They're claiming it's one of the most profitable areas of vet med. You want to be rich? Go be a poultry vet. I just don't understand where they're getting their numbers. Sometimes I wonder if they have numbers.
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Just to add on to a point that LIS made:
Calgary only accepts students who are from Alberta, which makes it more likely that many of them will stay in the province. So if Texas Tech ONLY accepts students from Texas, then it makes sense for them to use those numbers.
Plus it just seems like a cultural thing (at least at my school) that most of the Alberta students seem to want to stay in Alberta for life (or jump ship to BC).
Quite a few people I know at my school grew up in small rural prairie towns, and that is what drives their desire to go practice mixed/rural medicine (currently at least 50% of our class wants to do mixed). This is just me casually pondering, but I'm wondering if the price of tuition plays a role in those demographics. Our tuition is extremely low (relative to the US). I wonder if it was higher if that would select more-so for individuals from larger cities who likely have a higher family income and are more in a position to take on that debt. Which could subsequently play a role in the number of individuals who want to do rural/mixed vs small animal in the city.
Calgary only accepts students who are from Alberta, which makes it more likely that many of them will stay in the province. So if Texas Tech ONLY accepts students from Texas, then it makes sense for them to use those numbers.
Plus it just seems like a cultural thing (at least at my school) that most of the Alberta students seem to want to stay in Alberta for life (or jump ship to BC).
Quite a few people I know at my school grew up in small rural prairie towns, and that is what drives their desire to go practice mixed/rural medicine (currently at least 50% of our class wants to do mixed). This is just me casually pondering, but I'm wondering if the price of tuition plays a role in those demographics. Our tuition is extremely low (relative to the US). I wonder if it was higher if that would select more-so for individuals from larger cities who likely have a higher family income and are more in a position to take on that debt. Which could subsequently play a role in the number of individuals who want to do rural/mixed vs small animal in the city.
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I think, in general, the interest for large animal medicine is there in most student bodies. Most people don’t keep it as a long term goal though as it’s not sustainable. I know I’ve heard small animal clinicians at my school tell students that sure, you want to do equine, but you should still make the most of x small animal rotation because that’s where you’ll end up making the money. Harsh and unsolicited, but true on a large scale 🙁
Idk, still could have something to do with it. My debt is bad, but still nowhere near what these new schools are charging, and I’m going into rural practice. Granted I think my scenario is more an exception than a rule in some ways.
An article I read said 40 for the first admitted class and 240 students by 2026.
(I took that to mean 240 students total across all four years, so a class size of 60 per class.)
I missed you around here
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I mean, it's not a slam on equine or LA docs. It just is. We allllll know people who went LA or equine ..... And 5 yrs down the road are practicing SA medicine. I can't think of a single person I know that went the other direction (yes, I'm sure there are a couple, but......). Even most of the mixed folks I know are now practicing SA. At least from my class.
The swine and poultry folks are a little different, but how many seats in a class are filled by those peeps?
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One in my class
We have one swine person and zero poultry. But I suspect there may be some variation across schools based on what industries are in the area. Still can't imagine it being very many at any school though.
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I have been on a soapbox about this so much, but go talk to any corporate schmuck and they will claim over and over that these free exams bring them in clients, when I tell them I can prove them wrong, they don't believe me. I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen a repeat free exam client who comes back on a regular basis and actually pays for full exams. The vast majority of them only allow the exam and another significant number either think "exam" includes everything and are pissed they have to pay for care or believe a free exam = low cost clinic and get outraged that the clinic isn't low cost.
Of course, it isn't the corporate schmuck seeing this bull**** so they don't believe it, they just see lots of people coming in for a free exam so clearly that = new client= more clients= more money, despite the fact it doesn't.
Can you explain what you mean here? I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say? What do you mean by "groups"?
Most GP clinics do provide basic care and minimal diagnostics. Most of them have rads and lab ability and that is really it. I don't really think you can run a clinic without at least rads and ability to run basic labwork. Not sure what else you would slash from a GP clinic? I do agree that the boards need to be understanding of a lower cost of care and that not all clients can afford advanced care. As it stands now, we still have to offer that advanced care and I have heard of some boards not caring if the owner can't afford it. Which makes zero sense to me, if the owner declines, why should I still be held responsible for not doing the declined things? That is what needs to change.
I also think you are seeing this from an ER lens, but if I deliver 75% of the current level of care most GP clients in my area can do, I am going to be practicing medicine like good ol' Dr. Pol... here's your roids and antibiotics. A lot of my cases are supportive care and hopefully the pet improves, I can't really get much lower than that.
I don't agree. I wouldn't be able to do my current job if this happens. I have had calls about monkeys, iguanas, birds, dogs, cats, snakes. I can't control what calls in and I have to be prepared for anything to call in.
Many specialists practice on all species if the baseline DVM were limited licensure they wouldn't be able to work on all species, the basic background of anatomy/physiology and treatment of that species wouldn't be there.
Not only that, you have vets going out to help on certain deployment tasks that can involve a vast majority of species all in one location.
Hoarding cases often involve multiple species.
Shelter vets need to be able to know about multiple species.
It just isn't feasible with the scope of some of our work.
I think the LA and Equine people more oppose it because they all do some limited dog/cat work while out on farm calls. Vaccinating the farm dogs isn't unheard of while out on a farm call.
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Pretty sure he is talking about practice management/buying groups like VMG.
I agree with much of that post. If you cannot provide a vet degree for an affordable cost, you shouldn't be opening a school. I'm moderately less critical of AVMA because I know they did get in a tussle (that they lost) with Western when it first opened and there is wide precedent for the distributive model from the med school side (and honestly, I think it *could* be a really good way of teaching... lord knows I got out of the hospital as much as possible for my clinical year). But yeah. Not rational to think opening more schools is magically going to fill all the open spots for practices in rural areas/lower incomes/etc.
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A-State to explore feasibility of first in-state veterinary medical school, officials say
Arkansas State University will be working with an Illinois-based group to discuss the feasibility of creating the first in-state veterinary medical school in Arkansas, university officials said Friday.
Can't get my dj Khaled "and another one" gif to load in here. Damn technology.
This A State in question is Arkansas.
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“The demand for veterinarians is significant as more households enjoy pet ownership, and Arkansas livestock producers have acknowledged a shortage of veterinarians for large animals,” Damphousse said in the statement. “This is a concern that our College of Agriculture faculty and others across the region have expressed to us. I am excited to begin the discussion on our campus. We plan to work closely with veterinarians throughout Arkansas as we move forward in the development of this new college.”A-State to explore feasibility of first in-state veterinary medical school, officials say
Arkansas State University will be working with an Illinois-based group to discuss the feasibility of creating the first in-state veterinary medical school in Arkansas, university officials said Friday.www.kait8.com
Can't get my dj Khaled "and another one" gif to load in here. Damn technology.
This A State in question is Arkansas.
Oh, hey. It's the same tired, flawed line of reasoning that has been used to justify the construction of multiple vet schools over the past couple of decades with what seems like little to no success in actually making an appreciable impact in solving the issue.
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I think Arkansas has a contract seat at Oklahoma State too.
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That’s interesting. Because AR big wigs have lamented for years about not having enough money to fund anymore contract seats, or there’s no funding for rural loan payback programs, but mysteriously the funds are there for a new school.......$$$$$$$$$$ hmm
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It’s just painfully clear that schools are seeing unlimited federal loan dollar signs. Until the standards for accreditation become more stringent (to require a teaching hospital, amongst other things) and until the government stops lending literally any amount a student wishes to take out, this will only continue ad nauseum until we hit another terrible recession and go through the vicious cycle all over again. But when large sums of profit are to be had, no one is looking out for the students OR the profession as a whole.
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Oh yeah, I 100% agree that no more vet schools need to be opened up, and especially so if they can't "afford" a teaching hospital. Completely agree with all of this. I was just asking for clarification on that one part of his post and pointing out the parts that I don't think can change at this point, like limited licensure, it would cripple the veterinary profession as it stands now.
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I’m not sure how limited licensure would work out, especially for people in SA GP that see exotics, zoo/aquarium vets or lab animals vets. I agree that I wouldn’t want an equine vet doing my dog’s dental and I’m sure any horse owner would prefer me to not geld their yearlings, but how often do these scenarios come up aside from vaccinating barn cats on a farm call or (like myself) helping a neighbor draw blood and submit for titers in their small goat herd?
What I’d be interested to test out would be license renewal with an actual test or practical required every so many years; a lot of what hurts each part of the profession isn’t a new grad that only had four years to learn it all, it’s the old timers who’ve “always done it this way” and never strive to better themselves.
What I’d be interested to test out would be license renewal with an actual test or practical required every so many years; a lot of what hurts each part of the profession isn’t a new grad that only had four years to learn it all, it’s the old timers who’ve “always done it this way” and never strive to better themselves.
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I think that’s a great idea. In some states, vets that get in certain kinds of trouble with the board can be required to take a test to keep their license. I don’t see why this is reserved only for those that get in trouble. CE is great for keeping up to date on some things but there needs to be some way to keep vets current over the course of their careers and avoid harming their patients because, like you said, they’ve always done it this way.
I worked for a vet that gave every single vaccine between the shoulder blades. Pretty benign in the grand scheme of things, but shows a total lack of currency in his part. More severely, he would give Depo to basically any dog that had allergies and keep them on it for months or years without bloodwork. He would also give medications together that should be avoided, like steroids and NSAIDs. Things like this are easily avoidable.
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How would this translate to specialists? Would they too take tests to keep up their Diplomate status? Are they exempt from the test non-specialists take? I’m sure not all specialists would pass that kind of test since they often don’t deal with those things, so would they lose licensure? Just curious what your thoughts are.
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I just think about specialties where they really do work on every species--- dermatology, ophtho, cardiology, pathology, zoo vets, etc. Limited licensure would negatively affect all of these areas as well as the GP vets that do dabble in exotics. It is already super difficult for exotic pet owners to find vets that will see their pets, limited licensure would even further limit their options.
I don't know about a test for license renewal, I mean the current licensing exam (NAVLE) is a rather crap way to see what you really know and honestly was a bit outdated even when I took it. Who is going to verify the exams are updated regularly and what about those that are just crappy test takers but actually know their **** practically?
I just don't think testing is the best way to evaluate knowledge. Maybe a review of cases? But that would be expensive and time consuming and would open up a number of vets for disciplinary action for poor record keeping.
Plus what are you going to test a small animal GP on when they renew their license vs the equine practitioner vs the vet that only does in home humane end of life care vs the government vet vs the vet at poison control vs the ER vets and so on and so forth. At some point our knowledge base does become a bit specified with what we are doing, working on and working with. Not fair to ask the ER vet about vaccines and the newest flea/tick meds while asking the GP vet about managing a DKA or asking the equine vet how to treat baclofen toxicity in a dog.
I see why LIS was mentioning limited licensure because we do become a bit honed into our particular "area" of vet med, but there are too many areas of veterinary medicine that span across all the species that limited licensure would basically prevent theses specialties from functioning.
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I don’t really have any input on the SA/exotics limiting licensure because that is complicated, I’m more curious about the switching from LA to SA since it’s so common. For example, an equine only (as in refuses to touch anything else, even simple barn cat/dog vaccines) is wanting to switch because it’ll be easier once they’re married. I understand this, it’s a tough job, etc etc, but they haven’t even touched SA in over 10 years, how is that supposed to work? Thoughts?
(I have also heard that from their class, they are one of 2 that are still practicing LA.)
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@ajs513 The sad thing is, I don’t think CE is enough. My old boss would go and do his time but never implement anything “new” and would just nitpick why such and such was a ridiculous idea. He still kept his license though because he was technically there.
@allygator13 I think specialist-specific testing would be acceptable. Like if you’re a dermatologist, your test is geared entirely toward cases you would be seeing, not internal med or surgery or whatnot. Maybe some crossover questions where the derm part tied into another specialty (path, for example) but nothing outside the realm of your current practice.
@DVMDream I agree that a multiple choice test isn’t the way to do it (like the NAVLE) but perhaps submit a case for review or a practical of some sort - maybe bring in a trained “client” with a problem case, etc. I haven’t thought it through in enough detail to know the way I think it would be best implemented. As for the record keeping...especially the older generation is horrible at it in general as could use a slap in the wrist 😉
As for other fields, that’s what I’m getting at- equine would only be tested in equine, etc. As for GP- I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask how one might stabilize a critical case or an advanced medical case prior to possible transfer. I don’t consider vaccine or preventative protocols to be something worth testing on necessarily (just my personal opinion), more the actual medical or surgical cases that come through as that’s where people fall through the cracks on providing even some level of adequate care.
@hiellen I’m sure a good number are weeded out just by fact that they haven’t practiced SA med since vet school. I know my current place wouldn’t just hire an equine only career changer but I’m sure there are places desperate enough for bodies to take them in. Just read up a lot, I guess? A lot of specialties won’t even take a SA practitioner as a resident a few years out of school because of the concern for “bad habits”!
@allygator13 I think specialist-specific testing would be acceptable. Like if you’re a dermatologist, your test is geared entirely toward cases you would be seeing, not internal med or surgery or whatnot. Maybe some crossover questions where the derm part tied into another specialty (path, for example) but nothing outside the realm of your current practice.
@DVMDream I agree that a multiple choice test isn’t the way to do it (like the NAVLE) but perhaps submit a case for review or a practical of some sort - maybe bring in a trained “client” with a problem case, etc. I haven’t thought it through in enough detail to know the way I think it would be best implemented. As for the record keeping...especially the older generation is horrible at it in general as could use a slap in the wrist 😉
As for other fields, that’s what I’m getting at- equine would only be tested in equine, etc. As for GP- I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask how one might stabilize a critical case or an advanced medical case prior to possible transfer. I don’t consider vaccine or preventative protocols to be something worth testing on necessarily (just my personal opinion), more the actual medical or surgical cases that come through as that’s where people fall through the cracks on providing even some level of adequate care.
@hiellen I’m sure a good number are weeded out just by fact that they haven’t practiced SA med since vet school. I know my current place wouldn’t just hire an equine only career changer but I’m sure there are places desperate enough for bodies to take them in. Just read up a lot, I guess? A lot of specialties won’t even take a SA practitioner as a resident a few years out of school because of the concern for “bad habits”!
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Yeah, I think that would result in licensing costs increasing significantly. I already pay $400 every other year for one state license and the second is $100 every other year. I think that will just make licensing boards increase costs drastically. I mean, I agree it might not be a bad idea, but financially and feasibly unlikely to happen. Even just verifying every vet took a multiple choice exam before renewal would increase the cost. I really don't need added professional costs at this point. Already dreading how I am going to get in all my CE by the end of the year as it is now.
As for those needing wrist slapping, yeah, agreed, but the older generation is unlikely to change that record keeping even with a wrist slap, unfortunately.
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Some states don't even require CE. some only require like 15-20 hours every 2 years. If it's that inconsistent already, good luck implementing some kind of test. Also, as someone that is very much a veterinarian but doesn't do most of the standard medicine stuff, I would hate to have to take some huge test to maintain my license. I'm not putting pets at risk with outdated medicine if I don't really do medicine anyway... (to some extent).
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Most specialties do require maintenance of certification at this point...the days of boarded for life are passing. They just added it to pathology within the last 2-3 years. For path, it isn’t retroactive (so people boarded prior to 2016ish don’t have to do it) but all new diplomates are required to do the maintenance of certification. In addition to regular CE, we have to accumulate “points” by doing things like working as a pathologist, publishing papers, giving lectures, mentoring residents, etc. Points have to come from a variety of categories. If you don’t accumulate enough points in the given 10 year period or you choose to let it lapse then want to be a pathologist again, they will make you retake boards to prove your knowledge has been maintained.
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@hiellen One if my good friends planned for equine exclusive practice all her life. She did an equine internship, worked an equine job for a year or two after that. Then she wanted to leave the practice. She didn’t want to move and there were no other equine clinics hiring within a reasonable commute so she took jobs doing small animal relief and eventually took an associate position. She said it was extremely hard. She relied a lot on VIN, books, and a network of classmates who would answer her questions and make treatment suggestions. She’s become much more comfortable with it over time but she’ll tell anyone it was extremely hard.
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Well written post. Can’t really find anything to even nitpick. What is the world coming to when I agree completely with LIS?
Btw
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Simple answer.....GP small, GP equine GP , GP exotic or whatever.
You do a specialty? Then you can get broad licensure or not, you choose the program.
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Could you do both gp SA and GP exotics? I'm not sure how that'd work out
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Yeah, no that's not a simple answer.
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What would happen to the mixed practice vets in that case?
And I understand the concerns about being out of practice with a given species for a while, but what about people who continue to treat those species on a regular basis? From a physiology variance standpoint, I don't see a fundamental difference between treating cats/dogs/pet pigs/backyard ponies vs. cats/dogs/snakes/backyard chickens vs. dairy cows/horses/goats/sheep/camelids.
And I understand the concerns about being out of practice with a given species for a while, but what about people who continue to treat those species on a regular basis? From a physiology variance standpoint, I don't see a fundamental difference between treating cats/dogs/pet pigs/backyard ponies vs. cats/dogs/snakes/backyard chickens vs. dairy cows/horses/goats/sheep/camelids.
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Re: the Texas and Arkansas schools... maybe rather than opening these schools, the price of meat should go up to reflect actual cost of production?
I would be interested in working in a rural area, but not unless my job can take the place of my spouse's paycheck and fully support a family... and that is a laughable idea in many parts of the country
Alternatively, maybe these new schools/the states with shortages could provide radically reduced tuition (or ideally full scholarships) to people who agree to work in rural areas for a set number of years upon graduation. It happens in other situations -- the army being one that comes to mind in a vet context. But that approach has been used in other fields as well: for a number of years there have been full medical school scholarships for students from Maine who agree to return there to practice after graduation, and even some consulting companies pay people to go to business school.
I would be interested in working in a rural area, but not unless my job can take the place of my spouse's paycheck and fully support a family... and that is a laughable idea in many parts of the country
Alternatively, maybe these new schools/the states with shortages could provide radically reduced tuition (or ideally full scholarships) to people who agree to work in rural areas for a set number of years upon graduation. It happens in other situations -- the army being one that comes to mind in a vet context. But that approach has been used in other fields as well: for a number of years there have been full medical school scholarships for students from Maine who agree to return there to practice after graduation, and even some consulting companies pay people to go to business school.
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@PippyPony probably just best if mixed practice takes the zoo exam (Just kidding, in case that wasn’t clear...)
@twelvetigers every two years?! Jeez. I’m curious- which states don’t require it at all?
(Just kidding, in case that wasn’t clear...)@twelvetigers every two years?! Jeez. I’m curious- which states don’t require it at all?
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I’ve been creeping on the pharmacy threads a lot. I worry that’s the future we are headed towards, and in some ways have started to. They’ve been opening these new expensive private schools for years, and their job saturation is crazy high. New grads are getting turned out with 400k+ to pay back and there’s not even jobs waiting for them. The jobs that do exist have taken harsh hour and pay cuts. Kinda like how our salaries have depressed over time. At least the job market for associates is hot right now. I hope I still have a job when these first new classes get sent out into the workforce, as selfish as that sounds.
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I was comparing our situation to dentists just the other day on the APVMA Facebook page. They ended up closing schools and reducing class sizes due to lack of enrollment and oversaturation
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@itsrocky isnt the statistic for vetmed that there are 3 job openings for every new graduate? I agree that it’s problematic that there are new schools that are opening more and more frequently. Arizona, LIU, Texas Tech, possibly a new A&M (right?), Arkansas. The idea that they can charge as much as/more than somewhere like Penn or Tufts without having a teaching hospital or any sort of track record shouldn’t be accepted. But people are desperate to get into vet school so they’ll pay it. However, if there really are so many available jobs then would saturation really be a problem?
