NFL folded like a wet noodle over the protests

[Precedexed Out]

It’s not a cheap shot. It’s holding you to your words. You said you always were and still are in poverty. And yet you have the luxury of watching NFL games (seemingly for many, many years back) and being connected to internet (By the rate of your replies - dsl? Cable? FIOS?) throughout the day to comment on this forum.

I’m sorry you couldn’t argue the topic by being consistent with your words and actions. Looks like you got suckered by your own “liberal 101”, whatever that means.



Kaepernick never said kneeling would fix a problem. It was to use his position to shine a spotlight on a cause he believed in. (And he’s been doing more for than just kneeling, but don’t let facts get in the way of your story.) He’s been doing it for quite a few months and has explained it many times. How’d you miss it with all the football you watch?

And It’s not an outreach of the DNC. Are you sure you aren’t Alex Jones? Connecting any two points and hope it sticks?

Watching the NFL is free because I use an antenna on my eight year old TV. To this day, I have never lived with cable or satellite. My internet is the slowest speed available in my area and costs $10 per month (1.5 MBPS max download). My car costs $1700 and I have now owned it for over 7 years. And again, I'm a medical student living like a medical student, the money I have is from student loans. Are you suggesting people who live below the poverty line don't have internet, TV, cellphones, or food? To believe this demonstrates pure ignorance or intentional stupidity. Oh yea, I have the cheapest cell phone plan I could find, $50/month for two lines, I split it with my brother to save money. You have a twisted definition of poverty. By definition, I live in poverty, but American poverty is much more comfortable than 3rd world countries.

Why is Kaepernick silent? Why doesn't he speak out about the problem, define it, and propose a solution? Just kneeling during the national anthem does nothing except annoy people and most likely actually hurts the cause. Where is his solution? Is it to not vote and wear socks that have pigs on them or maybe to promote Castro?

Maybe you could enlighten us all what the specific solution Kaepernick or the other NFL players protesting are offering?

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[acidbase1]

http://gomerblog.com/2017/09/entire-or-team-kneels-during-timeout-to-protest-administrators/amp/

 

[el_duderino]

Kap isn't silent. He has had plenty to say. You just didn't care to listen as much as you cared about being offended that he took a knee.

 

[Precedexed Out]

http://gomerblog.com/2017/09/entire-or-team-kneels-during-timeout-to-protest-administrators/amp/

Hilarious

 

[Precedexed Out]

Kap isn't silent. He has had plenty to say. You just didn't care to listen as much as you cared about being offended that he took a knee.

Maybe you can help me. I haven't heard and can't find any specific solution to the problem he is protesting. Shouldn't the leader have a solution?

 

[el_duderino]

Maybe you can help me. I haven't heard and can't find any specific solution to the problem he is protesting. Shouldn't the leader have a solution?

You have Google. Besides, the guy is a football player not a politician. You don't have to have a fully fleshed out solution to a major societal problem to make a statement about institutional racism.

 

[Iso4ane]

He didn't harm anyone. He offended many people by disrespecting the military since he quit standing for the national anthem. Many people equate standing for the national anthem with respecting the military, like it or not. I am one of those, don't disrespect this country which has provided you with more than 99% of Americans.

You know I like your attitude, plenty of countries associate their flag/national anthem with the military...Russia, China, North Korea. What a wonderful group to join.

 

[Precedexed Out]

You have Google. Besides, the guy is a football player not a politician. You don't have to have a fully fleshed out solution to a major societal problem to make a statement about institutional racism.

You don't need to be a politician to propose a solution. Even if his solution isn't the best or logical, don't bring something up if you can't suggest a way to fix it.

About Google, I did several searches and can't find anything. You doesn't have to have a "fully fleshed out solution" but should have something in mind. Some direction to fix this problem.

 

[Precedexed Out]

You know I like your attitude, plenty of countries associate their flag/national anthem with the military...Russia, China, North Korea. What a wonderful group to join.

America honoring the sacrifices of the military with the national anthem is nothing new and has nothing to do with any of those countries. Another stupid and completely irrelevant comment intended to serve as nothing but a distraction. Russia, China, and North Korea all have flags, so do we, OMG, we better get rid of the flag so we don't become like them? Seriously, you can do better than that.

 

[Matty44]

Because he said that's why he was kneeling.

Seems pretty straightforward.

Also, if he kneel in front of the Supreme Court, we would not be talking about it at all. So no it would not have been more effective.

If I took a confederate flag to a black lives matter rally but walked around and told everyone I was protesting reverse racism against Asians on college entrance exams would that make any sense?

Neither does dishonoring the American flag cause you don't like cops.

Also, you're wrong. If a bunch of NFL players took it upon themselves to organize a protest and give speeches against police brutality or whatever, there would be PLENTY of coverage.



Also....knelt.

 

[BeatriZZ]

Precedexed,,your racism is obvious in your posts and it would be impossible to harbor such anti-black sentiments and not treat your black patients differently.
You lack the critical thinking skills and empathy to comprehend why people have chosen to protest in this manner. Who are you to judge how people should protest? Rosa Parks sat where she was not allowed to. The ANC in south africa organized militant and non militant attacks on the racist regime. Whether it's a march, a boycott, a sit in, kneeling during an anthem,,,if no one is being harmed why take such offense? You, as a white person think a black person doesn't have the right to kneel during an archaic ritual that at the end of the day is just symbolic. Bullets from police which is what the protest is about..are not symbolic.
You have attacked me personally and called my words "stupid" but accuse me of name calling. Then you change the whole subject to whether black people really have it that bad. Then you talk about how kneeling during the anthem does nothing but annoy people. Kaepernick is not a civil rights leader..did you miss how all the recent anthem protests were in response to Trump calling NFL players SOBs?
Would I choose to kneel during the anthem? No...but the kneeling has way more to do with Trump than what it was initially intended for which was to protest racist police and criminal justice. You want a solution? Hold police accountable for shooting unarmed black men. Not rocket science

 

[nimbus]

I am not racist and treat all people equally.

QED

I have only ever heard this from racists after they espouse racist ideas. Most people never have to defend themselves that way. If you find yourself in a position where you have to say this, you're probably a racist.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

I mean, we quit singing the part about hunting down fugitive slaves, so why can’t these guys get on board?

 

[Precedexed Out]

Precedexed,,your racism is obvious in your posts and it would be impossible to harbor such anti-black sentiments and not treat your black patients differently.
You lack the critical thinking skills and empathy to comprehend why people have chosen to protest in this manner. Who are you to judge how people should protest? Rosa Parks sat where she was not allowed to. The ANC in south africa organized militant and non militant attacks on the racist regime. Whether it's a march, a boycott, a sit in, kneeling during an anthem,,,if no one is being harmed why take such offense? You, as a white person think a black person doesn't have the right to kneel during an archaic ritual that at the end of the day is just symbolic. Bullets from police which is what the protest is about..are not symbolic.
You have attacked me personally and called my words "stupid" but accuse me of name calling. Then you change the whole subject to whether black people really have it that bad. Then you talk about how kneeling during the anthem does nothing but annoy people. Kaepernick is not a civil rights leader..did you miss how all the recent anthem protests were in response to Trump calling NFL players SOBs?
Would I choose to kneel during the anthem? No...but the kneeling has way more to do with Trump than what it was initially intended for which was to protest racist police and criminal justice. You want a solution? Hold police accountable for shooting unarmed black men. Not rocket science

Anti-black sentiments? Nothing about what I have posted is anti-black. The things I have posted are counter to your world view and for that reason you interpret it as racist by default. I have the right to react, judge, and comment on how other people protest, unless the liberals have banned that too. Honoring the sacrifices (meaning people died for our freedom) doesn't deserve to be called an archaic ritual. Go tell that to the parents of soldier who never returned from war. An individual does not have the right to protest at work. This protest is about bullets from police and that has what to do with kneeling during the national anthem? Exactly what? Trump's comments were directed at all players kneeling, including Kaepernick.

Now you're saying the kneeling is because of Trump, or racist police and criminal justice? Which is it? Seems more like a political statement than anything else. Something very similar to the democratic talking points.

Propose a specific solution for how to hold police accountable. No one has done that, Maybe doing what the police say is a good start to avoid getting shot. "Unarmed" doesn't necessarily mean anything. If a large individual is attacking or threatening the life of a police officer, the police officer has every right to shoot that person, regardless of whether or not they have a gun. One thing in common about nearly all of this high profile "white cop shots black person" is the black person ignored police requests and they had a criminal record. Michael Brown robbed a gas station shortly before he was shot. He attacked the police officer. But yeah, the media ignores robbing the gas station and portrays it as innocent little Michael shot while walking to Sunday school holding a bible. Give me a break. And the real kicker about the whole Michael Brown tragedy, the key witness was a black individual and the forensic evidence was consistent with the police officer's story and the key witness. Of course, those facts aren't convenient for you so you'd rather stick with white cop shots black person narrative. It isn't that simple. Our criminal justice system isn't perfect and no system is. You have to balance sensitivity vs specificity. Either convict all people actually guilty and a lot of innocent, or the converse, or somewhere in between.

Okay rocket science man, how do we hold them accountable? I mean specifics, not generalizations like "hold them accountable." The democrats have been pushing this issue for years, they should have a solution. Don't tell me they are like the incompetent republicans who couldn't get health care passed after over 7 years of whining about it. They should have something ready to go, after all, they are the better party. Where is the bill? Where is the reform? Oh wait...there isn't anything.

 

[Precedexed Out]

QED

I have only ever heard this from racists after they espouse racist ideas. Most people never have to defend themselves that way. If you find yourself in a position where you have to say this, you're probably a racist.

Sure is strange how for all the accusations I'm so wrong and stupid, there are more personal attacks about my education and critical thinking than substantive rebukes of my positions.

 

[nimbus]

Sure is strange how for all the accusations I'm so wrong and stupid, there are more personal attacks about my education and critical thinking than substantive rebukes of my positions.

What is your position? That it hurts your feelings when football players kneel during the national anthem? So sorry about that.

 

[Psych_hopeful]

What is your position? That it hurts your feelings when football players kneel during the national anthem? So sorry about that.

That's pretty much what it is. XD

 

[GA8314]

You have Google. Besides, the guy is a football player not a politician. You don't have to have a fully fleshed out solution to a major societal problem to make a statement about institutional racism.

Please explain to me how we have an institutional racism problem in the U.S. I am serious. Educate me.

 

[vector2]

Please explain to me how we have an institutional racism problem in the U.S. I am serious. Educate me.

All else being equal, as compared to a white person, a black person on average makes less even with equivalent work experience, is less likely to be hired if his name is 'ethnic' sounding, is more likely to live in an area with poor infrastructure, schools and healthcare because his forebears did not have access to the FHA programs which allowed historical white flight, is more likely to get pulled over by a cop, is more likely to get a severe sentence for the same crime, is more likely to end up on death row, and is more likely to be executed.

Even if you didn't know all that, you'd think Trump pardoning Arpaio would've given this country a hint.

 

[Machinery]

Sorry OP but the NFL is too big to fail. All the boycott talk is an illusion which will last as long as it takes for your team's rival to roll into town. Why do I know this? Because the freaking ticket to my team's last game cost the same or more than it did last year. I was counting on you guys boycotting so I could get a good deal. The ones that truly "boycott" somehow end up on their iPhone checking scores.

NFL Ticket Prices Surge Despite Protests
NFL Ticket Prices Surge Despite Protests

 

[GA8314]

All else being equal, as compared to a white person, a black person on average makes less even with equivalent work experience, is less likely to be hired if his name is 'ethnic' sounding, is more likely to live in an area with poor infrastructure, schools and healthcare because his forebears did not have access to the FHA programs which allowed historical white flight, is more likely to get pulled over by a cop, is more likely to get a severe sentence for the same crime, is more likely to end up on death row, and is more likely to be executed.

Even if you didn't know all that, you'd think Trump pardoning Arpaio would've given this country a hint.

So, GE pays a black guy less than a white guy for the same job#??

Large universities have the same standards for an Asian or White guy as compared to a black guy you say? They are discriminated against?

How about, institutionally, admission to medical school? Black folks are being institutionally discriminated against?

How about in media, entertainment and politics? We've talked a lot about the NFL lately. Discriminating against blacks they are? Too few black pop singers, in favor of offering contracts to the whites?

Governmental contracts.... How about those? White privilege there too? No extra points for "diversity".

Are you aware of the "no bid" corporate or governmental contracts available to minority owned businesses which white or Asian businesses don't, almost always, qualify for? I had a family member in a senior position with such a company.

You mentioned INSTITUTIONS (basically, large corporations, universities, the government). Most American based Multinationals can't get enough blacks (any minorities really) onto their roster. You think a black female engineering grad doesn't have a leg up on that job at General Motors compared to the white guy with the same degree?

Wasn't a white guy just fired from Google for revealing "unofficial" policies which are essentially off the books favoring the hiring of anyone but white males?? This is Google, not Tom's Towing in PoDunk Arkansas. Another very large "institution".

What are the black crime statistics as compared to whites? Are they the same or even close?

If blacks are being executed more likely on death row, then that's a problem, but what's your source?

Please provide sources or I will. Maybe I will anyway.

 

[Precedexed Out]

Sorry OP but the NFL is too big to fail. All the boycott talk is an illusion which will last as long as it takes for your team's rival to roll into town. Why do I know this? Because the freaking ticket to my team's last game cost the same or more than it did last year. I was counting on you guys boycotting so I could get a good deal. The ones that truly "boycott" somehow end up on their iPhone checking scores.

NFL Ticket Prices Surge Despite Protests
NFL Ticket Prices Surge Despite Protests

I'm not suggesting the NFL will fail. You're correcting in stating they won't fail and kneeling before the anthem isn't going to cause them to fail. It is worth mentioning that losing even 10-20% of revenue would be a substantial blow to the total revenue of the NFL. Much of the NFL is branding, TV, radio, and merchandise. The NFL brand alone with worth big money, and anything to done to tarnish that brand will scrape profits that don't involve much initial investment.

Ticket prices and number of seats sold isn't the most accurate way to gauge the financial impact of this problem.

As you can see, tickets sales account for less than a quarter of total revenue. I know this example is a few years old, but it still demonstrates the big picture of how things work today. This graph is a terrific reason why the NFL moved two teams to Los Angeles despite a history of not supporting football teams very well. The Rams are doing well (for a change) and the attendance at games is bad; much worse for the Chargers. Does the NFL care? Probably a little, but the size of the LA market more than makes up for fans not going to the game. Thus, the reason why teams went to LA. I can't cite a source, but I was listening to the radio and a sports business analyst was discussing this topic. A quick summary of what he stated was the Rams will generate substantially more revenue in LA than they did in St. Louis even if the stadium is empty.

 

[Precedexed Out]

What is your position? That it hurts your feelings when football players kneel during the national anthem? So sorry about that.

My position is simple. It is disrespectful to kneel, raise a fist, or do anything during the national anthem that takes away from showing respect for the sacrifices our military has made in the past and is currently making. Just because I find it extremely disrespectful doesn't mean it hurts my feelings.

 

[Precedexed Out]

Please explain to me how we have an institutional racism problem in the U.S. I am serious. Educate me.

Does racism exist in the US? Yes. Racism from all angles exists. Is it an institutional problem? No, not even close.

 

[Precedexed Out]

All else being equal, as compared to a white person, a black person on average makes less even with equivalent work experience, is less likely to be hired if his name is 'ethnic' sounding, is more likely to live in an area with poor infrastructure, schools and healthcare because his forebears did not have access to the FHA programs which allowed historical white flight, is more likely to get pulled over by a cop, is more likely to get a severe sentence for the same crime, is more likely to end up on death row, and is more likely to be executed.

Even if you didn't know all that, you'd think Trump pardoning Arpaio would've given this country a hint.

Type liberal: Arpaio's enforcement of immigration law was racist.

About your view that all blacks are placed at a substantial disadvantage, what is your solution? What did Obama do about this? I know. I know. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. Where are any proposed specific solutions? I know. I know. THEY DON'T EXIST. Although convenient for the sake of your narrative, not all blacks are placed into the same category in regards to many of the issues you stated above.

 

[Precedexed Out]

So, GE pays a black guy less than a white guy for the same job#??

Large universities have the same standards for an Asian or White guy as compared to a black guy you say? They are discriminated against?

How about, institutionally, admission to medical school? Black folks are being institutionally discriminated against?

How about in media, entertainment and politics? We've talked a lot about the NFL lately. Discriminating against blacks they are? Too few black pop singers, in favor of offering contracts to the whites?

Governmental contracts.... How about those? White privilege there too? No extra points for "diversity".

Are you aware of the "no bid" corporate or governmental contracts available to minority owned businesses which white or Asian businesses don't, almost always, qualify for? I had a family member in a senior position with such a company.

You mentioned INSTITUTIONS (basically, large corporations, universities, the government). Most American based Multinationals can't get enough blacks (any minorities really) onto their roster. You think a black female engineering grad doesn't have a leg up on that job at General Motors compared to the white guy with the same degree?

Wasn't a white guy just fired from Google for revealing "unofficial" policies which are essentially off the books favoring the hiring of anyone but white males?? This is Google, not Tom's Towing in PoDunk Arkansas. Another very large "institution".

What are the black crime statistics as compared to whites? Are they the same or even close?

If blacks are being executed more likely on death row, then that's a problem, but what's your source?

Please provide sources or I will. Maybe I will anyway.

Well stated. No doubt that minorities are often given an advantage over a white person with the same qualifications. Medical school admissions are a perfect example. A white or Asian person needs an MCAT 5 points higher to have the same likelihood of securing a medical school spot. Again, doesn't fit the liberal narrative so we'll ignore those facts too. Look it up. This is data published by the AAMC.

 

[Redpancreas]

I noticed the NFL has changed their tune dramatically this week compared to last. I think the NFL is financially realizing the consequences of allowing the players to insert politics into a formerly apolitical sport. Most Americans agree with Trump about the ridiculousness of these national anthem protests and now most players are standing with their hand over heart. The Ravens decided to take a knee before the national anthem and were booed, and rightly so. The Steelers took a dramatic turn, last week most cowards stayed in the locker room during the national anthem except one player who later apologized for coming out. This week they stood on the sideline. The fans clearly, including me, don't have any desire to watch the foolish preanthem protests. The damage has been done and this stupidity by the players, owners, and Goodell is going to be felt for years. I've heard many of my family and friends say, "Saturday is football day now."

On a side note, ever notice how the NFL states things similar to needing to allow players to express themselves? Since when? The NFL has always had fines and/or penalties for expressing oneself. No touchdown dances, no writing on socks, and Dallas wasn't allowed to honor the police with a small decal on their helmet. The NFL rules clearly state the players must be on the field and stand during the anthem, but this on rule the NFL has decided to ignore. The NFL took a political stance and it has bit them in the ass. Fans have no desire to watch millionaires complain about inequality or whatever they are protesting, most of the players probably aren't really sure.

I think the declining viewership is due to a few factors, the most important simply being the rise of the college game. Others include the constant trading of players (which screws with team spirit) and the usually the same old teams making the playoffs. The NFL can try to stir some drama about the Patriots but fast forward 15 weeks an s we'll surely see them in the playoffs with a bye. In college, every game is huge and has bowl implications. Last week my team had to prove it was back from 2016 struggles and this week we're playing a superior but overrated team that refuses to acknowledge us as a rival despite us winning the last 7 of 9 contests. If we win, we put the entire B1G on alert. There's so much drama and identity invested into each game especially for everyone who's of college age or higher and has a team.

With the NFL, players are shuttled through franchises and replaced if they don't meet immediate demands. Players are getting stronger and injuries pile up too and as a result, even players start retiring earlier and you don't see as many with their heart really in it in my opinion. Similar things can be said about the NBA besides the injuries where post-finals viewership is at an all-time low.

I think all this talk about anthems is a minor turn off and people saying they've stopped watching because of it is like stomping on someone when they're already down and defeated. Of course Trump with his grandiose delusions about life in general will take credit for everything as well.

 

[Precedexed Out]

I think the declining viewership is due to a few factors, the most important simply being the rise of the college game. Others include the constant trading not players and the usually the same old teams making the playoffs. In college, every game is huge. Last week my team had to prove it was back from 2016 struggles and this week we're playing a superior but overrated team that refuses to acknowledge us as a rival despite us winning the last 7 of 9 contests. There's so much drama and identity invested into each game especially for everyone who's of college age or higher.

With the NFL, players are shuttled through franchises and replaced ifnthey don't meet immediate demands. Players are getting stronger and injuries pile up too and as a result, even players start retiring earlier and you don't see as many with their heart really in it in my opinion. The same can be said about the NBA where viewership is now focused solely on the finals to see whether Lebron or the West will win because it has legacy implications.

I think all this talk about anthems is a minor turn off and people saying they've stopped watching because of it is like stomping on someone when they're already down and defeated. Of course Trump with his grandiose delusions about life in general will take credit for everything as well.

Much of what you stated I agree with. My main disagreement is that the national anthem protests are more than a minor turn off. Some of the decline is secondary to the decreased quality of the games, the Brady Manning era is over (unfortunately).

It is really simple, the majority of viewers don't want politics inserted into sports. Approximately half of the NFL is republican/democratic. It is a lose lose situation if you choose sides. Idiots like Marshawn Lynch wearing Everybody vs Trump doesn't help anything and it really shows how out of touch with reality he is. If he was aware of his fan base, he would know that not everybody is against Trump. The idiot gains nothing by wearing this shirt.

Exclusive poll: 62% of NFL fans plan to watch less football

 

[GravelRider]

Much of what you stated I agree with. My main disagreement is that the national anthem protests are more than a minor turn off. Some of the decline is secondary to the decreased quality of the games, the Brady Manning era is over (unfortunately).

It is really simple, the majority of viewers don't want politics inserted into sports. Approximately half of the NFL is republican/democratic. It is a lose lose situation if you choose sides. Idiots like Marshawn Lynch wearing Everybody vs Trump doesn't help anything and it really shows how out of touch with reality he is. If he was aware of his fan base, he would know that not everybody is against Trump. The idiot gains nothing by wearing this shirt.

Exclusive poll: 62% of NFL fans plan to watch less football

First of all, kneeling is often a symbol of reverence, humility, and respect. Kneeling is done to show submission and is often seen as a sign that someone is in deep through, prayer, or introspection. These players are not giving the middle finger or doing other clear cut symbols of disrespect. Get over it.

We just had another major mass shooting and you are still caught up in a discussion over kneeling. Instead of having relevant discussions you are caught up on something completely meaningless. This is typical political sleight of hand. Seriously, move on.

 

[Redpancreas]

First of all, kneeling is often a symbol of reverence, humility, and respect. Kneeling is done to show submission and is often seen as a sign that someone is in deep through, prayer, or introspection. These players are not giving the middle finger or doing other clear cut symbols of disrespect. Get over it.

We just had another major mass shooting and you are still caught up in a discussion over kneeling. Instead of having relevant discussions you are caught up on something completely meaningless. This is typical political sleight of hand. Seriously, move on.

OP is simply discussing an issue, he's not detracting from the Las Vegas tragedy. While you can't assume what those who died would want, i don't think want things at a standstill out of honor for them, but for us to continue to express our opinions.

OP, we're going to have to disagree about the kneeling being a major/minor factor. I too find it annoying (mainly because it's getting so much media) but it wouldn't influence whether I watched a game or not. Maybe it was a major factor for you. What I can say though is that African Americans are not happy. They feel oppressed and when someone in that community is successful on a national scale, I understand how he or she may feel obligated to amplify the opinion of the majority of the community who do not have a voice.

In regards to the flag issue, I think this issue is easily resolved if we just look at what we all have in common. Do all Americans respect our troops? Yes. Do we all love this country? Yes. See, the flag represents many things. It represents both our troops as well as our freedoms. People are triggered by kneeling because they choose to interpret it as disrespecting people dying for our country. If you just see it as them kneeling because they aren't happy with the high proportion of black killings among other issues, I bet it will appear less annoying.

As for Marshawn Lynch wearing Everyone vs. Trump, let me just be real. Trump is an idiot. He happened to run on the Republican platform because he knew he could channel the frustrations of the White American who feels rightfully unrepresented in an era of unprecedented liberal identity politics. He has come out to say useless statements that just further increase tensions because he knew that would trigger Republicans further. I don't think he actually believes what he says and is trying to take a stand against the left on his own principles, but to increase his popularity among his base.

Now that I'm mid-rant, I see you're anti-affirmative action in medical school as well and see how that triggers you (rightfully so). To you, you're just a guy/girl trying to get into medical school and affirmative action is unfair. It really is. A black student of equal merit who grew up the same way you did is able to get a better spot than you. The thing is you have to realize life is unfair and recruiting future physicians isn't about fairness. It's about finding a diverse group so we can cater to every community. (If you want to debate that a diverse group as opposed to an elite group is what is required, that's valid and the reason it's supported by mainstream is because it's what the evidence I've seen published shows, perhaps we need more data idk). A consequence of finding that diverse group is that these unfair circumstances happen. I think it's important for everyone to admit that because not doing so is like a slap in the face to non-AA beneficiaries which is what leads to frustration that result in the election of such a polarizing figure. What I do think though is some students who are anti-AFfirmatice Action also tend to over exaggerate how many unfair situations actually occur.

 

[Twiggidy]

So, GE pays a black guy less than a white guy for the same job#??

Large universities have the same standards for an Asian or White guy as compared to a black guy you say? They are discriminated against?

How about, institutionally, admission to medical school? Black folks are being institutionally discriminated against?

How about in media, entertainment and politics? We've talked a lot about the NFL lately. Discriminating against blacks they are? Too few black pop singers, in favor of offering contracts to the whites?

Governmental contracts.... How about those? White privilege there too? No extra points for "diversity".

Are you aware of the "no bid" corporate or governmental contracts available to minority owned businesses which white or Asian businesses don't, almost always, qualify for? I had a family member in a senior position with such a company.

You mentioned INSTITUTIONS (basically, large corporations, universities, the government). Most American based Multinationals can't get enough blacks (any minorities really) onto their roster. You think a black female engineering grad doesn't have a leg up on that job at General Motors compared to the white guy with the same degree?

Wasn't a white guy just fired from Google for revealing "unofficial" policies which are essentially off the books favoring the hiring of anyone but white males?? This is Google, not Tom's Towing in PoDunk Arkansas. Another very large "institution".

What are the black crime statistics as compared to whites? Are they the same or even close?

If blacks are being executed more likely on death row, then that's a problem, but what's your source?

Please provide sources or I will. Maybe I will anyway.

You asked a question and didn't even bother to sit back and think about the answer you were given. Instead, you got super defensive, which is the main problem when having this discussion. Instead of listening to the concerns of one side, people get offended and defensive.

Institutional racism is NOT an "institution" being racist, ie Google or a university. It's the practice of racism via social and political institutions. A very famous example is "Name and Racial Bias". There have been studies supporting the claim as well as a recent study saying there's no difference.

New Study Confirms Depressing Truth About Names And Racial Bias | HuffPost
Hiring bias study: Resumes with black, white, Hispanic names treated the same

that's just a quick search to show you both

Institutional racism is not giving qualified minorities home loans or making them either harder to obtain or more expensive. Banks redline black and hispanic neighborhoods which leads to lower homeownership (which in turn can lead us to a discussion on gentrification)

Institutional racism is crack vs cocaine got an 18:1 sentencing disparity (crack being more used by poor blacks and cocaine being used more by wealthy whites)

Heck, believe it or not, the very field you work in has institutional racism

Study Links Disparities in Pain Management to Racial Bias

For the most part, the people who QUESTION institutional racism and it's existence are the people it does not effect (affect?....whatever)

 

[Iso4ane]

Since there was a brief mention of affirmative action, I believe studies/simulations have been done that show that white males and females as a whole are the least affected group. (They neither benefit or are harmed by AA).

 

[Twiggidy]

Much of what you stated I agree with. My main disagreement is that the national anthem protests are more than a minor turn off. Some of the decline is secondary to the decreased quality of the games, the Brady Manning era is over (unfortunately).

It is really simple, the majority of viewers don't want politics inserted into sports. Approximately half of the NFL is republican/democratic. It is a lose lose situation if you choose sides. Idiots like Marshawn Lynch wearing Everybody vs Trump doesn't help anything and it really shows how out of touch with reality he is. If he was aware of his fan base, he would know that not everybody is against Trump. The idiot gains nothing by wearing this shirt.

Exclusive poll: 62% of NFL fans plan to watch less football

But here's the rub....maybe he wore that shirt for the democrat NFL fan base (which you say is 50%). And here's the deep thought, would Marshawn be an "idiot" if his shirt said "Everybody vs Shumer/Pelosi/you see where I'm going"

The problem with this entire debate, if that's what we'll call it, is that no one on either side is going to change their stance which makes an entire thread of:

A: "I'm right because of my belief"
B: "No, I'm right because of MY belief"
...........for pages

I find it interesting that a few on here are saying that these actions "don't work" or "don't help"......but yet it's being discussed, again, if that's what you want to call it, on a forum. But the discussion will never move forward until BOTH sides step off their soap boxes and take minute an hear what the other side is saying.

 

[acidbase1]

I agree with a lot of what both sides are saying. I think slavery is one of the saddest pieces of US history. I cried like a baby after watching "7 years a slave". African Americans were treated worse than livestoock.

The other side of the coin is I don't condone blaming good police officers for crimes they have not committed. 99% of our police officers are good people. Yes there are some bad apples as there are in any profession. I lived in Chicago and rotated through cook county trauma surgery for 3 months. To say there isn't a issue with black Americans in this country is myopic. The statistics are what they are, that is not racism. Their community is in complete disarray and they need community organizers working around the clock to help these people. So to me its difficult for me to blame the police officers for "profiling" when they're dealing with african americans day in and out, after all, they are human.

Some of the most amazing people i have worked with in this business ARE BLACK PEOPLE. My chief resident as a CA1 was a black guy and he was and still is the most respected resident to ever come out of my program. I keep in touch with him regularly and met him in Vegas a year ago. I truly believe if they can escape their social situation they have every opportunity in america as a white person, if not more so.

My biggest issue is the media coming after white people who aren't racist. I haven't ever owned slaves, nor has anyone I know. I rarely, if ever hear a racist comment out of someones mouth. We can't erase the past but we can definitely grow from it. Is it fair to make a bunch of strangers pay for something that happened 150 years ago?

I am not naive and understand racism does exist. But I think its overplayed by the media and used as a crutch by some. (for example, watch the 30 for 30 on OJ Simpson) Is this to say things don't need to change and conversations don't need to take place? Absolutely not, but to come after our police officers, disrespect our country, and blame a bunch of innocent bystanders for being racist is not the way to do it.

 

[Twiggidy]

Since there was a brief mention of affirmative action, I believe studies/simulations have been done that show that white males and females as a whole are the least affected group. (They neither benefit or are harmed by AA).

Actually.....
White women benefit most from affirmative action — and are among its fiercest opponents

 

[Twiggidy]

I agree with a lot of what both sides are saying. I think slavery is one of the saddest pieces of US history.....


My biggest issue is the media coming after white people who aren't racist. I haven't ever owned slaves, nor has anyone I know. I rarely, if ever hear a racist comment out of someones mouth. We can't erase the past but we can definitely grow from it. Is it fair to make a bunch of strangers pay for something that happened 150 years ago?

You are absolutely correct and the issue and literally why the U.S. race relations are what they are is response to the abolition of slavery. I'm not saying you said this, but when I read comments around that say, "Slavery is over. Get over it" Well, yeah, slavery was abolished, but that lead to the KKK, Jim Crow, institutional racism, etc. No, of course it's not YOUR fault. Heck, it may not even be YOUR ancestors' fault. But, someone's ancestors' in group, graduating class, high school class, etc they may have had a dirty hand in all this. Again, the past is part of the reason the way things are today. Many other countries had slavery but they way they handled things post-abolition are far different then the way they were handled in the U.S. Post abolition in England there were never any segragation laws. The UK isn't perfect and definitely has had it's race issues, but in the US, we literally had separate bathrooms and water fountains, and even if you don't think the after effects of this days still exist, they do.

The other side of the coin is I don't condone blaming good police officers for crimes they have not committed. 99% of our police officers are good people. Yes there are some bad apples as there are in any profession. I lived in Chicago and rotated through cook county trauma surgery for 3 months. To say there isn't a issue with black Americans in this country is myopic. The statistics are what they are, that is not racism. Their community is in complete disarray and they need community organizers working around the clock to help these people. So to me its difficult for me to blame the police officers for "profiling" when they're dealing with african americans day in and out, after all, they are human.

Yeah, but why? Instead of just looking and saying. "oh look at the screwed up community"....really ask yourself, "why is that community that screwed up?"

You're gonna hate the title of this article but you should give it a read....it may answer that "Why?" question. Again, the title will turn you off, but the article is well written and based on research. (it is long)
The Case for Reparations

 

[facted]

Type liberal: Arpaio's enforcement of immigration law was racist.

Not only racist, also illegal. Joe Arpaio, former sheriff in Arizona, is found guilty of criminal contempt

And before we go there, the judge that deemed his discrimatory policies as unconstitutional is a registered independent and recommended for her seat by a republican, Jon Kyl.

 

[GA8314]

You asked a question and didn't even bother to sit back and think about the answer you were given. Instead, you got super defensive, which is the main problem when having this discussion. Instead of listening to the concerns of one side, people get offended and defensive.

Institutional racism is NOT an "institution" being racist, ie Google or a university. It's the practice of racism via social and political institutions. A very famous example is "Name and Racial Bias". There have been studies supporting the claim as well as a recent study saying there's no difference.

New Study Confirms Depressing Truth About Names And Racial Bias | HuffPost
Hiring bias study: Resumes with black, white, Hispanic names treated the same

that's just a quick search to show you both

Institutional racism is not giving qualified minorities home loans or making them either harder to obtain or more expensive. Banks redline black and hispanic neighborhoods which leads to lower homeownership (which in turn can lead us to a discussion on gentrification)

Institutional racism is crack vs cocaine got an 18:1 sentencing disparity (crack being more used by poor blacks and cocaine being used more by wealthy whites)

Heck, believe it or not, the very field you work in has institutional racism

Study Links Disparities in Pain Management to Racial Bias

For the most part, the people who QUESTION institutional racism and it's existence are the people it does not effect (affect?....whatever)

Twiggidy, you seem like a rational guy whom can talk about these issues. It's guys like you that make guys like me LESS defensive, and more open to a discussion.

I would argue that social and political institutions are things which I've described:

Social: media, entertainment, professional athletics
Political institutions: Government mostly, but also Universities to an extent.
Institutions: suggests large, well, institutions. Large corporations. Large governmental bureaus.

All of the examples listed above point in the exact opposite direction from "institutional" racism.

I'll agree 100% that the crack versus cocaine or even MJ laws have been disproportionately harmful to minority (AA only?) communities. I do not support those laws and they should be changed. But, was it the fact that crack is in many ways a much more dangerous drug that got those laws passed, or was it racism? I'm not sure we really know, but we now have evidence that they are unfair in their enforcement and thus should be changed.

Have minorities been denied home loans because of racism or because of poor credit? These are important questions to ask. Simply suggesting they are because of some hidden racism rather than a business decision seems like a stretch. Sure, we can go back to the not so distant past and point to plenty examples of minorities (perhaps black folks in particular?) being treated very unfairly. Nobody disputes that. But, do we really have institutional racism in our society today?

I would never, and do not now, support anything like that. Whether it really is a problem in today's society seems uncertain at best to me.

What I do know, is that white kids are being told that they have inherent racism within them (never a mention of similar phenomena in other races), that they live under a protective umbrella of white privilege, have been asked to stay off campus for a day to allow minorities a "safe space", and have seen our civilization (Western) constantly maligned by many within the University system (institutions...). People are fed up with it.

It makes me wonder if/when it will ever end. At what point do we cease being this instrument of destruction and oppression and simply become a scapegoated, soon to be non-majority?

 

[acidbase1]

You are absolutely correct and the issue and literally why the U.S. race relations are what they are is response to the abolition of slavery. I'm not saying you said this, but when I read comments around that say, "Slavery is over. Get over it" Well, yeah, slavery was abolished, but that lead to the KKK, Jim Crow, institutional racism, etc. No, of course it's not YOUR fault. Heck, it may not even be YOUR ancestors' fault. But, someone's ancestors' in group, graduating class, high school class, etc they may have had a dirty hand in all this. Again, the past is part of the reason the way things are today. Many other countries had slavery but they way they handled things post-abolition are far different then the way they were handled in the U.S. Post abolition in England there were never any segragation laws. The UK isn't perfect and definitely has had it's race issues, but in the US, we literally had separate bathrooms and water fountains, and even if you don't think the after effects of this days still exist, they do.



Yeah, but why? Instead of just looking and saying. "oh look at the screwed up community"....really ask yourself, "why is that community that screwed up?"

You're gonna hate the title of this article but you should give it a read....it may answer that "Why?" question. Again, the title will turn you off, but the article is well written and based on research. (it is long)
The Case for Reparations

Well to be fair, the African Americans themselves didn't go through slavery and most of them weren't around for segregation. All I'm saying is making me pay for past mistakes in this country isn't fair. We need to put forth every effort possible to make this "right". I'm not a political activist all I'm saying is how they're going about it isnt right

 

[Twiggidy]

Have minorities been denied home loans because of racism or because of poor credit? These are important questions to ask. Simply suggesting they are because of some hidden racism rather than a business decision seems like a stretch. Sure, we can go back to the not so distant past and point to plenty examples of minorities (perhaps black folks in particular?) being treated very unfairly. Nobody disputes that. But, do we really have institutional racism in our society today?

I'd point you towards Coates's article again to really explain this one in detail. It's too long a discussion for a forum. Some of the keywords will be "redlining", "predatory loans", "credit score disparities". Basically, you redline a neighborhood so the people there can't get loans. You can also offer predatory loans to them which they will inevitably default on which leads to bad credit scores, loss of homes, etc, etc, etc. Homeowner doesn't take care of home, neighborhood gets bad. You get the gist, but again, Coates explains it better. It can be seen as a stretch when examined on the surface, but when I ask myself, "hey, the white people gentrify black neighborhoods, why can't black people gentrify their own neighborhoods?" let's just say, if you're black you have to be damn near perfect credit worthy wise and they still may not give you a loan based on the whole "redlining"

Newly Released Maps Show How Housing Discrimination Happened

FYI: I know for a fact that colleagues of mine have lower mortgage interest rates, because they've told me, and we used the same lender for our homes. (One was even able to get two loans). I had to damn near show a short form birth certificate to get the loan (joke)

What I do know, is that white kids are being told that they have inherent racism within them (never a mention of similar phenomena in other races), that they live under a protective umbrella of white privilege, have been asked to stay off campus for a day to allow minorities a "safe space", and have seen our civilization (Western) constantly maligned by many within the University system (institutions...). People are fed up with it.

It makes me wonder if/when it will ever end. At what point do we cease being this instrument of destruction and oppression and simply become a scapegoated, soon to be non-majority?

I'm not sure what little white kids are being told their racist. I personally haven't seen that. We do ALL (ALL) have our biases and for those who aren't in positions are power, the bias can hurt. I feel like the term "white privilege" is almost being treated like a racial slur but honestly I don't think most white people really know what "white privilege" means.

White Like Me - Wikipedia

I recommend watching some YouTube vids where Tim Wise speaks (and please don't read the angry comments). But when you get angry about term "white privilege" think about this

1) A well know sports radio reporter who's black told a story about him purchasing a new car in Miami and going into the car decision he had to factor "I want a nice car, but not TOO nice a car, because it may be a 'pull over' magnet". Like it or not, if you're white and have money and are going to buy a nice fancy car, that statement does not cross your mind.

2)I personally had a similar dilemma to #1 (and I'm no where near famous) and wanted a new car. I have no kids and minimal debt and want something NICE but literally thought the same as the sports radio guy (and this was before I heard his story). I ended up with the basically "the Toyota" of this area of the country for nice cars, but my colleagues have FANCY cars and they probably didn't think my thought

3) Let's say you do get pulled over, for lets say, speeding. As a white person what are you thinking? "Oh please let me get away with a warning?" or "Oh please let me get away NOT SHOT at"? Where do you keep your license, registration, and insurance when you drive? I'll tell you where mine is...somewhere in clear view for when Mr./Mrs. Officer ( Yep, that's how i address them) asks me for those documents. Clear vision.

4) I've said on other threads, I don't own a gun because the way I look legally owning/possessing a gun is different in the eyes of police/juries/judges than the way most of you look owning/possessing a gun.

White privilege, the dirty word it has become, isn't just, you get preference for schools and jobs because you're white. It's the fact that you get to live life and NOT HAVE to think about the fact you're white. Things happen darn near daily in my life because I'm BLACK. Some little and laughable (ie, some guy thinking I'm Daniel Cormier and being real disappointed when he realized I'm not. wife and I still joke about it.) and some hurtful (patient literally told me to my face she didn't expect her doctor to be a black man).

Trust me, if people told me everyday that I have all that I have just because I'm black, I'd be upset too, but I'd also take a step back and ask myself if it were true. I'd like to tell myself my awesome high school grades got me to me college, but I also know my college wanted diversity. I can't be mad at the truth.

It makes me wonder if/when it will ever end. At what point do we cease being this instrument of destruction and oppression and simply become a scapegoated, soon to be non-majority?

that's the voice of fear

 

[Twiggidy]

Well to be fair, the African Americans themselves didn't go through slavery and most of them weren't around for segregation. All I'm saying is making me pay for past mistakes in this country isn't fair. We need to put forth every effort possible to make this "right". I'm not a political activist all I'm saying is how they're going about it isnt right

What has anyone asked you to pay for? Again, if you don't think the effects of slavery and Jim Crow I can point you towards some readings and documentaries.

"The House I Live In" (probably have to rent that one)
"The 13th" (It's on Netflix)
"The New Jim Crow" by Michelle Alexander
"White Like Me" by Tim Wise
"Bastards of the Party" (are real interesting movie depicting why the Bloods and Crips gangs were created)

It's very easy to say "get over it, that was the past" when it doesn't effect you.

 

[nimbus]

One of my partners recently bought a Jaguar F-Type R. He was interested in a Mercedes AMG GT but the dealer was reluctant to let him test drive it and told him they didn't want to put too many miles on their demo. WTF!!?? Have a guess what race he is. And this is in a very large diverse coastal metro area.

 

[Twiggidy]

The thing is, I'm not even here trying to change anyone's mind, but I give you what sources/examples that I do you so that maybe you'll watch or read and say, "Well aren't these 'things that make you go hmmmm..." (I'm old)

 

[Twiggidy]

One of my partners recently bought a Jaguar F-Type R. He was interested in a Mercedes AMG GT but the dealer was reluctant to let him test drive it and told him they didn't want to put too many miles on their demo. WTF!!?? Have a guess what race he is. And this is in a very large diverse coastal metro area.

I looked at an M3 and the dealer all but pushed me to another car....then I showed him my paystub. Didn't get the M3 but didn't go to far below it either. But I'll admit I'm just as bad. I'll see a black guy in a Porsche and say, "I wonder what he does?" or "Who does he play for?" and I'm BLACK!....how many white guys have I done that to....but that's what I'm trying to gently explain

*still kind of want that M3 though*

 

[acidbase1]

What has anyone asked you to pay for? Again, if you don't think the effects of slavery and Jim Crow I can point you towards some readings and documentaries.

"The House I Live In" (probably have to rent that one)
"The 13th" (It's on Netflix)
"The New Jim Crow" by Michelle Alexander
"White Like Me" by Tim Wise
"Bastards of the Party" (are real interesting movie depicting why the Bloods and Crips gangs were created)

It's very easy to say "get over it, that was the past" when it doesn't effect you.

I pay for it on a daily basis brah. It's basically all I've heard or read about for 5-10 years...

everytime I flip on ESPN or try and watch a football game I'm inundated with RACISM

 

[deleted50478]

The thing is, I'm not even here trying to change anyone's mind, but I give you what sources/examples that I do you so that maybe you'll watch or read and say, "Well aren't these 'things that make you go hmmmm..." (I'm old)

For the youngsters:

 

[vector2]

So, GE pays a black guy less than a white guy for the same job#??

Large universities have the same standards for an Asian or White guy as compared to a black guy you say? They are discriminated against?

How about, institutionally, admission to medical school? Black folks are being institutionally discriminated against?

How about in media, entertainment and politics? We've talked a lot about the NFL lately. Discriminating against blacks they are? Too few black pop singers, in favor of offering contracts to the whites?

Governmental contracts.... How about those? White privilege there too? No extra points for "diversity".

Are you aware of the "no bid" corporate or governmental contracts available to minority owned businesses which white or Asian businesses don't, almost always, qualify for? I had a family member in a senior position with such a company.

You mentioned INSTITUTIONS (basically, large corporations, universities, the government). Most American based Multinationals can't get enough blacks (any minorities really) onto their roster. You think a black female engineering grad doesn't have a leg up on that job at General Motors compared to the white guy with the same degree?

Wasn't a white guy just fired from Google for revealing "unofficial" policies which are essentially off the books favoring the hiring of anyone but white males?? This is Google, not Tom's Towing in PoDunk Arkansas. Another very large "institution".

What are the black crime statistics as compared to whites? Are they the same or even close?

If blacks are being executed more likely on death row, then that's a problem, but what's your source?

Please provide sources or I will. Maybe I will anyway.

As Twig pointed out, you're looking at the definition of "institutional" far too narrowly. Institutional racism (Institutional racism - Wikipedia) refers to essentially the entire fabric of a nation in all aspects of society from top to bottom, not just the highest echelons like actors, athletes, pop stars, medical school, large universities, GE etc. You bought up a point that affirmative action exists for some medical schools. If you look a little bit deeper and see all the way down from high school to pre-K, you'll learn that the race discrepancy is enormous. Take a look at this graph of private schools:

The overwhelming whiteness of U.S. private schools, in six maps and charts

I would argue that affirmative action at the university and graduate level is more than fair considering the advantage that asians and whites have before reaching that level.

As far as politics, I'm sure a whole lot of people thought that the election of Obama meant racism in government is dead, but yet policy (especially at the state level) is what really matters, and getting policies enacted which are supported by blacks is even more difficult than one might think:

At both levels, I found that blacks hold much less sway than whites. For example, a federal policy with no white support has only a 10 percent chance of being enacted, while one with universal white support has a 60 percent shot of adoption. But while a proposal with no black support has a 40 percent chance of becoming law, one enjoying unanimous approval has only a 30 percent probability of enactment. In other words, as support for a policy rises within the black community, the odds of it being achieved actually decline.

Likewise, whether most black voters are conservative or liberal, state legislative outcomes barely budge. But vary the views of white voters to an equivalent degree, and a state’s policies go from looking like Alabama’s to resembling Michigan’s, even controlling for black and white population size. The False Promise of Black Political Representation

As far as crime statistics, the point I was making is irrespective of whether crime rates are higher among blacks or in black communities. Even taking into account a higher felony commission rate by blacks, the level of incarceration is out of proportion. But the main point that really gets people salty is if you take a white guy and a black guy who perpetrate the same act, the punishment is more severe for the latter and this phenomenon extends all the way down the criminal justice system:

There are significant racial disparities in sentencing decisions in the United States.1 Sentences imposed on Black males in the federal system are nearly 20 percent longer than those imposed on white males convicted of similar crimes.2 Black and Latino offenders sentenced in state and federal courts face significantly greater odds of incarceration than similarly situated white offenders and receive longer sentences than their white counterparts in some jurisdictions.3 Black male federal defendants receive longer sentences than whites arrested for the same offenses and with comparable criminal histories.4 Research has also shown that race plays a significant role in the determination of which homicide cases result in death sentences.5

The racial disparities increase with the severity of the sentence imposed. The level of disproportionate representation of Blacks among prisoners who are serving life sentences without the possibility of parole (LWOP) is higher than that among parole-eligible prisoners serving life sentences. The disparity is even higher for juvenile offenders sentenced to LWOP, and higher still among prisoners sentenced to LWOP for nonviolent offenses. Although Blacks constitute only about 13 percent of the U.S. population, as of 2009, Blacks constitute 28.3 percent of all lifers, 56.4 percent of those serving LWOP, and 56.1 percent of those who received LWOP for offenses committed as a juvenile.6 As of 2012, the ACLU’s research shows that 65.4 percent of prisoners serving LWOP for nonviolent offenses are Black.7

The racial disparities are even worse in some states. In 13 states and the federal system, the percentage of Blacks serving life sentences is over 60 percent.8 In Georgia and Louisiana, the proportion of Blacks serving LWOP sentences is as high as 73.9 and 73.3 percent, respectively.9 In the federal system, 71.3 percent of the 1,230 LWOP prisoners are Black.10

These racial disparities result from disparate treatment of Blacks at every stage of the criminal justice system, including stops and searches, arrests, prosecutions and plea negotiations, trials, and sentencing.11 Race matters at all phases and aspects of the criminal process, including the quality of representation, the charging phase, and the availability of plea agreements, each of which impact whether juvenile and adult defendants face a potential LWOP sentence. In addition, racial disparities in sentencing can result from theoretically “race neutral” sentencing policies that have significant disparate racial effects, particularly in the cases of habitual offender laws and many drug policies, including mandatory minimums, school zone drug enhancements, and federal policies adopted by Congress in 1986 and 1996 that at the time established a 100-toone sentencing disparity between crack and powder cocaine offenses.12

Racial disparities in sentencing also result in part from prosecutors’ decisions at the initial charging stage, suggesting that racial bias affects the exercise of prosecutorial discretion with respect to certain crimes. One study found that Black defendants face significantly more severe charges than whites, even after controlling for characteristics of the offense, criminal history, defense counsel type, age and education of the offender, and crime rates and economic characteristics of the jurisdiction.13

The above document is sourced from here https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/...achr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf and it contains an extensive bibliography.

 

[nimbus]

As Twig pointed out, you're looking at the definition of "institutional" far too narrowly. Institutional racism (Institutional racism - Wikipedia) refers to essentially the entire fabric of a nation in all aspects of society from top to bottom, not just the highest echelons like actors, athletes, pop stars, medical school, large universities, GE etc. You bought up a point that affirmative action exists for some medical schools. If you look a little bit deeper and see all the way down from high school to pre-K, you'll learn that the race discrepancy is enormous. Take a look at this graph of private schools:

The overwhelming whiteness of U.S. private schools, in six maps and charts

I would argue that affirmative action at the university and graduate level is more than fair considering the advantage that asians and whites have before reaching that level.

As far as politics, I'm sure a whole lot of people thought that the election of Obama meant racism in government is dead, but yet policy (especially at the state level) is what really matters, and getting policies enacted which are supported by blacks is even more difficult than one might think:



As far as crime statistics, the point I was making is irrespective of whether crime rates are higher among blacks or in black communities. Even taking into account a higher felony commission rate by blacks, the level of incarceration is out of proportion. But the main point that really gets people salty is if you take a white guy and a black guy who perpetrate the same act, the punishment is more severe for the latter and this phenomenon extends all the way down the criminal justice system:



The above document is sourced from here https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/...achr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf and it contains an extensive bibliography.

Speaking of private schools, illicit drug use was fairly prevalent at my daughter's private school (cocaine and amphetamines, opioids, benzos, and weed). Guess how many of those upper middle class white kids were busted by the police. The law is the law unless you have rich parents, go to private school, and live in a good neighborhood. That is white privilege.

 

[GA8314]

I'd point you towards Coates's article again to really explain this one in detail. It's too long a discussion for a forum. Some of the keywords will be "redlining", "predatory loans", "credit score disparities". Basically, you redline a neighborhood so the people there can't get loans. You can also offer predatory loans to them which they will inevitably default on which leads to bad credit scores, loss of homes, etc, etc, etc. Homeowner doesn't take care of home, neighborhood gets bad. You get the gist, but again, Coates explains it better. It can be seen as a stretch when examined on the surface, but when I ask myself, "hey, the white people gentrify black neighborhoods, why can't black people gentrify their own neighborhoods?" let's just say, if you're black you have to be damn near perfect credit worthy wise and they still may not give you a loan based on the whole "redlining"

Newly Released Maps Show How Housing Discrimination Happened

FYI: I know for a fact that colleagues of mine have lower mortgage interest rates, because they've told me, and we used the same lender for our homes. (One was even able to get two loans). I had to damn near show a short form birth certificate to get the loan (joke)



I'm not sure what little white kids are being told their racist. I personally haven't seen that. We do ALL (ALL) have our biases and for those who aren't in positions are power, the bias can hurt. I feel like the term "white privilege" is almost being treated like a racial slur but honestly I don't think most white people really know what "white privilege" means.

White Like Me - Wikipedia

I recommend watching some YouTube vids where Tim Wise speaks (and please don't read the angry comments). But when you get angry about term "white privilege" think about this

1) A well know sports radio reporter who's black told a story about him purchasing a new car in Miami and going into the car decision he had to factor "I want a nice car, but not TOO nice a car, because it may be a 'pull over' magnet". Like it or not, if you're white and have money and are going to buy a nice fancy car, that statement does not cross your mind.

2)I personally had a similar dilemma to #1 (and I'm no where near famous) and wanted a new car. I have no kids and minimal debt and want something NICE but literally thought the same as the sports radio guy (and this was before I heard his story). I ended up with the basically "the Toyota" of this area of the country for nice cars, but my colleagues have FANCY cars and they probably didn't think my thought

3) Let's say you do get pulled over, for lets say, speeding. As a white person what are you thinking? "Oh please let me get away with a warning?" or "Oh please let me get away NOT SHOT at"? Where do you keep your license, registration, and insurance when you drive? I'll tell you where mine is...somewhere in clear view for when Mr./Mrs. Officer ( Yep, that's how i address them) asks me for those documents. Clear vision.

4) I've said on other threads, I don't own a gun because the way I look legally owning/possessing a gun is different in the eyes of police/juries/judges than the way most of you look owning/possessing a gun.

White privilege, the dirty word it has become, isn't just, you get preference for schools and jobs because you're white. It's the fact that you get to live life and NOT HAVE to think about the fact you're white. Things happen darn near daily in my life because I'm BLACK. Some little and laughable (ie, some guy thinking I'm Daniel Cormier and being real disappointed when he realized I'm not. wife and I still joke about it.) and some hurtful (patient literally told me to my face she didn't expect her doctor to be a black man).

Trust me, if people told me everyday that I have all that I have just because I'm black, I'd be upset too, but I'd also take a step back and ask myself if it were true. I'd like to tell myself my awesome high school grades got me to me college, but I also know my college wanted diversity. I can't be mad at the truth.



that's the voice of fear

South African Boers are at Stage 6 of genocide according to genocide watch. So, let's please not dismiss that.

Genocide Watch - prevention, analysis, advocacy and action

As for your other points, I'm not going to dismiss your experiences. You said in another post you are (old). Could your past have tainted your reality today, however? Growing up black in the 60's and 70's would have been a different experience than in 2017 is my point. In other words, if you focus on all of these things being strictly because you are black, might your perception become your own reality. Again, I would never deny that blacks had a rough start (to say the least) in the U.S. Great strides have been made, however.

I agree that predatory lending is a real problem. Unfortunately, it doesn't just "target" blacks. It mostly targets the poor and desperate. Citibank and it's subsidiaries don't care whom they fleece. As long as they make money doing it.

If indeed they are going after what they deem as easier targets in the form of blacks and others, poor people of all races, the elderly, and people in general financial duress, then I would support laws which reigns in those predatory practices which I am not denying exist.

As for mortgage lenders, if any discriminatory practices based upon race can ever be proven (memo's would need to be disseminated to the community/branches all over the country), then the size of that class action lawsuit would be staggeringly huge. I'm not saying those things didn't happen in the past, but I would be very surprised that it happened today. I don't know how to explain your higher mortgage rate or your experiences at a car dealership. My general feeling is that those people can't get enough business and all you need is a pulse, a FICO score/credit check, a few pay stubs, and car dealers will sell to you if you have GREEN skin.

Indeed, the number of minorities (and other people who probably should not have had access to such cheap credit) who found themselves underwater on their homes from aggressive lending practices of the early 2000's suggests banks will indeed lend to just about anyone. The counter argument could be that they DID, and that in itself was predatory. But, denied loans? Don't think so. Just the opposite. Terms of those loans not withstanding, and again, not defending predatory lending for a second.

 

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As Twig pointed out, you're looking at the definition of "institutional" far too narrowly. Institutional racism (Institutional racism - Wikipedia) refers to essentially the entire fabric of a nation in all aspects of society from top to bottom, not just the highest echelons like actors, athletes, pop stars, medical school, large universities, GE etc. You bought up a point that affirmative action exists for some medical schools. If you look a little bit deeper and see all the way down from high school to pre-K, you'll learn that the race discrepancy is enormous. Take a look at this graph of private schools:

The overwhelming whiteness of U.S. private schools, in six maps and charts

I would argue that affirmative action at the university and graduate level is more than fair considering the advantage that asians and whites have before reaching that level.

As far as politics, I'm sure a whole lot of people thought that the election of Obama meant racism in government is dead, but yet policy (especially at the state level) is what really matters, and getting policies enacted which are supported by blacks is even more difficult than one might think:



As far as crime statistics, the point I was making is irrespective of whether crime rates are higher among blacks or in black communities. Even taking into account a higher felony commission rate by blacks, the level of incarceration is out of proportion. But the main point that really gets people salty is if you take a white guy and a black guy who perpetrate the same act, the punishment is more severe for the latter and this phenomenon extends all the way down the criminal justice system:



The above document is sourced from here https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/...achr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf and it contains an extensive bibliography.

Look. Nobody is denying we have inequities in the U.S. I'm not saying this at all paternalistically, but I feel terrible for what has happened, for example, to black families. Indeed, I personally believe that many minority (and non-minority by the way) communities have become literal dependents on society. Given just enough help to become almost helpless. It seems like a very tough cycle to break.

I wish we had the political will for large work programs in the U.S. where people with low skills and little opportunities could work, learn a trade, earn a decent wage, and then go on to live a more fulfilling life.

I don't want to get too political but this is why many people feel the Democrats have so greatly failed the minority communities. Just enough gibs to keep them quiet. Or high AND quiet. But, this impacts other communities also. It's been a cultural problem if we were to all be honest.