Not mentioning ethnicity on applications - disadvantage?

[ChemEngMD]

Semantics.

Edit: I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I'd really like to know when you think the free handouts should stop? If ever? This is a serious question that I don't think anyone has answered yet.

That's the thing. I don't see them as "free handouts", as much as a means of leveling a playing field (obviously not completely, but it's something at least) that is completely stacked against certain groups of people in this country. When we move beyond race in this country (another 100 or 150 years when everyone is mixed, maybe?) then there won't need to be a means to level the playing field.

My question is: if you think that all these people get "free handouts" and are playing the victim, then why do you want to go into a service job? You realize that as a clinician you will be dealing with these same people you seem to despise and resent, right? Not trying to pick a fight, I am just genuinely curious why people of your particular form of conservative social/political leanings choose to go into a profession that is inherently meant to serve all people, and often poor and disenfranchised groups more than others. Unless you just plan to do some super sub-specialty where you will only be dealing with a specific sect of society -- if so, I retract my question haha.

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[pink/\floyd]

The British ruled over India for over 200 years and you can bet on the fact there was discrimination/segregation/racism you call it! But, the bottom line is Indians(Asians) don't get any special treatment in the admissions process. Why? Was our history not important enough? Too many of us dream of going to medical school? Or is it because Asian parents force us to study(lol mine never did)?
Also, please explain that if there are so many parents forcing their kids to study then why does India have the largest illiterate population in the world?
Man, the passion to succeed is something inherent, not based on circumstances around you. Forget the past it isn't changing and move forward. It was our ancestors who got discriminated against not us.

 

[Harpsx]

The consistent yearly trend for the most numerous categories was around 3%. Cherrypicking data was when another poster showed the 33% vs 80% acceptances for people with <3.2 GPA and >39 MCAT. This is just using a very small sample size that would clearly increase variance to show a larger gap.

I do believe that there is a glass ceiling for Asians in medicine. However, I don't think there is enough evidence to show that it is present here at the very bottom of this career. But I am pretty sure its there in hospital administration, health policy, etc.

I don't think that's how it works. If the incidence of people having "wrong" motive among the Asian group (at each MCAT/GPA bracket) of applicants is higher than what it is among white applicants at that same bracket, you would expect a higher percentage of Asians being rejected from each of those brackets. The difference in acceptance rate is not dramatic so it is entirely plausible scenario.


I fully support questioning discrepancy, I just think its too early to jump to conclusion that there is certainly a conscious systematic discrimination by the ADCOM that is going on here.

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying. And haha, I've always liked your posts because of how objective and open minded you try to be

 

[lobo.solo]

cry me a river! my post was to the mods and admin people.

And in fact I had participated in many of these threads. However, they're useless because people have different ideologies and positions that are different from each other.

The bottom line of this is that the AAMC and medical schools think that is important to recruit minorities. I would think this is a decision that was not taken lightly and is based on a ton of literature/research about the benefits of URMs in each class and in their impact in society. People might disagree with this, of course, and think that the person with the higher stats should get in. But whatever!

Get out of here. I'm sick of people like you coming into these threads and telling us what we should or should not talk about. Are you kidding me? This is an internet forum and no one is forcing you to "listen" to this thread. You don't like it? Ignore it. For the love of god don't come in here just to tell us to stop talking - it's pathetic.

We are learning by having these discussions - these threads aren't made so that the races can flame each other. Just because you don't feel comfortable talking about some of these topics doesn't mean it's wrong to do so. Go back to your fairy-tale land and stop wasting everyone's time.

 

[shenellica]

The British ruled over India for over 200 years and you can bet on the fact there was discrimination/segregation/racism you call it! But, the bottom line is Indians(Asians) don't get any special treatment in the admissions process. Why? Was our history not important enough? Too many of us dream of going to medical school? Or is it because Asian parents force us to study(lol mine never did)?
Also, please explain that if there are so many parents forcing their kids to study then why does India have the largest illiterate population in the world?
Man, the passion to succeed is something inherent, not based on circumstances around you. Forget the past it isn't changing and move forward. It was our ancestors who got discriminated against not us.

What is the doctor population like in India? Are they mostly Indian or British? Real question.

 

[ChemEngMD]

The British ruled over India for over 200 years and you can bet on the fact there was discrimination/segregation/racism you call it! But, the bottom line is Indians(Asians) don't get any special treatment in the admissions process. Why? Was our history not important enough? Too many of us dream of going to medical school? Or is it because Asian parents force us to study(lol mine never did)?
Also, please explain that if there are so many parents forcing their kids to study then why does India have the largest illiterate population in the world?
Man, the passion to succeed is something inherent, not based on circumstances around you. Forget the past it isn't changing and move forward. It was our ancestors who got discriminated against not us.

They should totally have those programs for social mobility and leveling the playing field for certain ethnic groups of Indians in India. It's not about being discriminated against in your home country, it's about being discriminated against in the USA. Latinos aren't complaining about the prejudice they faced at the hands of the Spaniards for 200 years...we're talking about the past 100 years in this country, here.

It's not an adequate comparison.

So your saying other 3rd world countries don't have doctors?

No she's asking if the British still hold the power in the country in that field or if it is Indians now who do.

 

[touchpause13]

Please show me where I put white people on a pedestal or said that they don't have struggles.

Kthanks

 

[touchpause13]

I think it is a perfectly adequate comparison.Because racism should have no restrictions. If you claim it to affect you personally why does it matter where we go?
However, my main point was to talk about the stereotype "asian parents force their kids into studying" that's a BS reason to have higher standards.
I have nothing against URMs being recruited coz I am all for diversity. My only beef is this.. Why are you expecting other ORMS to get higher scores? And why not expect URMS to do the same? Can't blame history over it. Schools are free for everyone in America. I think these are just excuses. I'm sorry that's my honest opinion.

 

[pink/\floyd]

View attachment 178016

-_-

 

[Womb Raider]

That's the thing. I don't see them as "free handouts", as much as a means of leveling a playing field (obviously not completely, but it's something at least) that is completely stacked against certain groups of people in this country. When we move beyond race in this country (another 100 or 150 years when everyone is mixed, maybe?) then there won't need to be a means to level the playing field.

They're still free handouts even if they're used to "level" your playing field. Actually I guess "free" isn't a good way to describe it, because they are hurting someone else in the process.

It sounds like you just want to match the demographics of citizens to that of the physicians.

I want to level the playing field for the NBA. Let's deal with professional sports in the same way that we're dealing with medical school. Yeah right.

The point is, just because "field x" isn't demographically identical to the citizenship of the country, doesn't mean that it's bad and unfair.

But yeah, I know your argument is more in-depth than this and so is mine. We'll just agree to disagree, like you said.

My question is: if you think that all these people get "free handouts" and are playing the victim, then why do you want to go into a service job? You realize that as a clinician you will be dealing with these same people you seem to despise and resent, right? Not trying to pick a fight, I am just genuinely curious why people of your particular form of conservative social/political leanings choose to go into a profession that is inherently meant to serve all people, and often poor and disenfranchised groups more than others. Unless you just plan to do some super sub-specialty where you will only be dealing with a specific sect of society -- if so, I retract my question haha.

No no no. This is common inferential mistake. I don't have problems with minorities, unless they give me a reason to have a problem with them (just like anyone else). I don't despise the minorities in my class that used the "victim card" or had extremely below-average MCAT scores. I despise the SYSTEM that allowed them to do those things. I'm sorry if you guys have confused my rants to be directed at you personally, that was not, and never will be, my intention.

The "system" goes against my morals. Of course people are going to take advantage of the system, I don't blame them. That's life. I probably would too if I was able. (Again, why re-take an extremely sub-par MCAT if I knew I had a great chance at getting in with that score?). Directing my anger towards the individuals would accomplish nothing.

 

[Womb Raider]

I think it is a perfectly adequate comparison.Because racism should have no restrictions. If you claim it to affect you personally why does it matter where we go?

Lol GOK - I really don't think comparing the US to other countries is going to accomplish anything productive. For once Touchpause and I agree on something (that picture was a good representation of my reaction too).

However, my main point was to talk about the stereotype "asian parents force their kids into studying" that's a BS reason to have higher standards.
I have nothing against URMs being recruited coz I am all for diversity. My only beef is this.. Why are you expecting other ORMS to get higher scores? And why not expect URMS to do the same?

The answer to this question has been answered many times in this thread. I think in re-reading everything you will find your answer.

 

[shenellica]

So your saying other 3rd world countries don't have doctors?

And here is your answer: http://www.newindianexpress.com/mag...ery-1700-people/2013/09/22/article1792010.ece

Are you ok or do you just want to pick a fight with everyone? How am I saying 3rd world countries don't have doctors? I was asking of the doctors that they do have what percentage is ethnically Indian vs what percentage is British? That link just compares the number of doctors to the population and nothing about the ethnicity of the doctors. This is a real question I had and I think it goes with the theme of this thread in discussing all the numbers on ORM and URM doctors vs how many people of those ethnicities make up the general population.

You added the India example so I was asking for those numbers.

 

[MangoPlant]

All I'm saying is that the system we have in place right now is screwing over Asians that are poor because they lack opportunity just like poor blacks and latinos and also face racism just like blacks and latinos, yet they get absolutely NO benefit when applying to schools. Forget benefit, they get a handicap because they are Asian. Same thing for poor white people.

The system we have in place right now, as someone else said before, creates a class of a bunch of middle-upper class kids that have different skin colors from each other. How do you know that the black kids being recruited actually faced economic difficulties? Sure, they may have faced social difficulties because of their race - I don't deny that, but so have Asians yet no benefits are given to the latter. In other words, Kanye West's son would get a better shot at medical school than the son of poor Taiwanese immigrants who run a small grocery store even if they had the same stats, ECs, and interviewed equally well. If not completely SES based, SES should at least be given much more weight.

 

[MangoPlant]

Are you ok or do you just want to pick a fight with everyone? How am I saying 3rd world countries don't have doctors? I was asking of the doctors that they do have what percentage is ethnically Indian vs what percentage is British? That link just compares the number of doctors to the population and nothing about the ethnicity of the doctors. This is a real question I had and I think it goes with the theme of this thread in discussing all the numbers on ORM and URM doctors vs how many people of those ethnicities make up the general population.

You added the India example so I was asking for those numbers.

yeah I agree that the India example does not work so well because it's completely different from what's going on over here. The reservation system in India (which has drawn a lot of criticism) is comparable to what's going on over here, but we should not go into that because it deals a lot with Indian politics which not everyone here is going to be familiar with.

EDIT: Nvm the reservation system is also not comparable because that system uses quotas whereas quotas are outlawed in the United States (although I'm sure some schools use it silently in the name of diversity)

 

[SunsFun]

I don't see why it has to be one or the other. You can theoretically use both SES and race to level the playing field with the effect of both being compounded for those individuals who are both poor and URM.

 

[ChemEngMD]

They're still free handouts even if they're used to "level" your playing field. Actually I guess "free" isn't a good way to describe it, because they are hurting someone else in the process.

It sounds like you just want to match the demographics of citizens to that of the physicians.

I want to level the playing field for the NBA. Let's deal with professional sports in the same way that we're dealing with medical school. Yeah right.

The point is, just because "field x" isn't demographically identical to the citizenship of the country, doesn't mean that it's bad and unfair.

But yeah, I know your argument is more in-depth than this and so is mine. We'll just agree to disagree, like you said.

I like the comparison to the NBA. That's funny.

Here's the thing. Healthcare is different.

You don't need basketball or car dealerships or a plethora of other fields. They are not necessary. Healthcare is. Healthcare is something that EVERYONE accesses and needs. Find me another field that is that prevalent. That is why you need adequate representation of the country's demographics in the physician population because everyone in that country is going to access healthcare at some point in their lives, and it has been proven to be more effective when they have the option of seeing a clinician of their same cultural background.

 

[touchpause13]

As LizzyM pointed out adcoms can see your SES and chose to give you slack because of it.

And Kanye West's son would still have to deal with racism! (Not to mention having insane parents)

In murica Classism is not the only form of oppression, failing to take into account racism shows a complete lack of understanding of our culture.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

As LizzyM pointed out adcoms can see your SES and chose to give you slack because of it.

And Kanye West's son would still have to deal with racism! (Not to mention having insane parents)

In murica Classism is not the only form of oppression, failing to take into account racism shows a complete lack of understanding of our culture.

Now you are the one who is playing "oppression olympics."

SES is a hard number (based on parental income) and cannot be argued. But how do you truly know how much racism someone has faced in their life? Who are you to say that other minority individuals have faced more racism than Asians, and therefore should get a boost, while Asians get shafted?

The problem is that when you bring race into the equation, you are essentially making a judgment call based on pure assumption.

Edit: The simplest explanation is almost always the correct one. Everyone is ignoring the obvious truth. Medical schools clearly want to have a certain % Asian, certain % white, and certain % URM in their classes. If Asians are achieving in higher numbers, the competition is going to be tougher for them, because schools want their racial demographics to reflect those of the American population. They are essentially instituting a de facto quota system, although they will never admit it, because it's illegal.

 

[touchpause13]

Now you are the one who is playing "oppression olympics."

SES is a hard number (based on parental income) and cannot be argued. But how do you truly know how much racism someone has faced in their life? Who are you to say that other minority groups have faced more racism than Asians, and therefore should get a boost, while Asians get shafted?

The problem is that when you bring race into the equation, you are essentially making a judgment call based on pure assumption.

So are you just not reading anything I'm writing? Or do you not understand what words mean?

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

So are you just not reading anything I'm writing? Or do you not understand what words mean?

"Failing to take into account racism shows a complete lack of understanding of our culture."

You are completely ignoring racism against Asians. You have only spoken on behalf of certain groups.

 

[touchpause13]

Did I ever say that Asian people don't experience racism?

But I don't see how Asian people are getting "shafted" in this particular situation, no.

 

[shenellica]

yeah I agree that the India example does not work so well because it's completely different from what's going on over here. The reservation system in India (which has drawn a lot of criticism) is comparable to what's going on over here, but we should not go into that because it deals a lot with Indian politics which not everyone here is going to be familiar with.

EDIT: Nvm the reservation system is also not comparable because that system uses quotas whereas quotas are outlawed in the United States (although I'm sure some schools use it silently in the name of diversity)

Thank you for answering my question. Can you give a brief explanation of this quota system? I've never heard of it. If that system was implemented in the US is it similar to affirmative action? If it's a quota system (and I'm just guessing because I have no background knowledge in this at all) and hypothetically it was implemented here it would probably hurt Asians and other ORM even more than the system that we currently use?

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Did I ever say that Asian people don't experience racism?

But I don't see how Asian people are getting "shafted" in this particular situation, no.

I will repeat it again. The numbers show that Asians are held to a higher standard in admissions, compared to ALL other groups. Someone else quoted the statistics in an earlier post. Asians need to have higher GPAs and MCATs to achieve the SAME success as other groups, including white students. The simplest explanation is that there is a de facto quota system at play here. As a group, Asians perform better than other groups on academic metrics, and as a result, they are held to higher standards in order to ensure a diverse class.

The undergraduate data shows the same pattern. Between 1990 and 2003, the proportion of Asian students at Cal Tech (race blind admissions) rose dramatically, in proportion to the increase in Asian college students in the United States. However, the proportion of Asians at the ivies stayed the same. The ivies are not race-blind. Fishy, isn't it?

 

[touchpause13]

Not particularly no.

 

[touchpause13]

And you can't compare undergrad admissions to med school admissions. They are too completely different ballgames. The purpose of a medical school is to produce clinicians to serve the community. different schools have different missions and may focus more heavily on one group than other, but the point stands. I mean for college you get in based solely on grades for the most part, med school isn't like that. You have an overwhelming amount of people applying for a small number of spots and they all have the academic background to prove they can handle the material. How do you decide? You have to look at the needs of the greater population and there is a great need for URM doctors.

 

[MangoPlant]

As LizzyM pointed out adcoms can see your SES and chose to give you slack because of it.

And Kanye West's son would still have to deal with racism! (Not to mention having insane parents)

In murica Classism is not the only form of oppression, failing to take into account racism shows a complete lack of understanding of our culture.

"Failing to take into account racism shows a complete lack of understanding of our culture."

You are completely ignoring racism against Asians. You have only spoken on behalf of certain groups.

What I think Quinn is getting at is this: I compared Kanye West's son to the son of poor Taiwanese immigrants, yet you said that Kanye West's son would still have to deal with racism without also mentioning that the Taiwanese person would also deal with racism. It sounded (doesn't mean you meant this) as if you completely forgot that like Kanye's son, the Asian would also deal with racism.

 

[touchpause13]

What I think Quinn is getting at is this: I compared Kanye West's son to the son of poor Taiwanese immigrants, yet you said that Kanye West's son would still have to deal with racism without also mentioning that the Taiwanese person. It sounded as if you completely forgot that like Kanye's son, the Asian would also deal with racism.

Sorry I should have clarified. If I don't mention something that means I agree with it. I didn't see the need to bring it up again. Of course the immigrant would have to deal with racism and Classism.

 

[MangoPlant]

Thank you for answering my question. Can you give a brief explanation of this quota system? I've never heard of it. If that system was implemented in the US is it similar to affirmative action? If it's a quota system (and I'm just guessing because I have no background knowledge in this at all) and hypothetically it was implemented here it would probably hurt Asians and other ORM even more than the system that we currently use?

Of course! The quota system is where schools have to fill a certain amount of spots for each ethnicity. For example, a school on a quota system would say we need 10 blacks, 30 asians, 100 whites, etc. This would hurt any ethnicity that has many qualified applicants. For example, imagine if a school only wants 10 black people yet there are 15 extremely qualified black people applying. Tough luck for the 5 black people that don't get in. Same thing for Asians and any other ethnicity. This is exactly why the quota system is ILLEGAL in the united states. It punishes any ethnicity that produces highly qualified applicants that are more in number than what a school wants. The system we have in place right now does not work like this (at least it shouldn't legally), but I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few schools doing this under the table.

 

[Reckoner]

I will repeat it again. The numbers show that Asians are held to a higher standard in admissions, compared to ALL other groups.

Except this isn't what the data show. This is conjecture. The data show slightly lower rates of admission at different mcat/gpa combinations for Asians. As many have pointed out, this could be due to several reasons (sample size at certain data points, difference in ECs, racism against Asians, etc) Until you show me an experiment where identical applicants have a race randomly assigned to them before applying to medical schools and achieve different outcomes, you can't make this claim with confidence.

My own hypothesis (with no research on my part - just guesswork) is that the large percentage of Asian applicants coming from California plays a role as well.

 

[Goro]

Without getting too specific to numbers, let's just say that >20% of my students are Asian. They're being discriminated against how?

No one is being held to a higher standard. But standards aren't always numeric. 4.0 automatons of any ethnicity are a dime a dozen. I just rejected two of them recently, because I cringe at the idea of these soul-less individuals touching patients.

And as a member of a group that was also historically discriminated against, whose ancestors also came from the Asian mainland, I'll just say that was then, this is now. The world has moved on.

I think that admissions should be as objective as possible, and therefore a gender-blind process would be best. But, I think gender is harder to hide because of things like LORs (they are going to refer to you as he/she.)

 

[MangoPlant]

You're ignoring all of the upper and middle class White people in higher education.

Look at it like this. If there are 1,000 spots in a college class and 50 of these are given out to Affirmative Action candidates. If right now the 950 non-AA spots are being filled 65% White, 25% Asian, 5% Black, and 5% Latino. They decide that because Blacks are 12.6% of the population and Hispanics are 16.4% they want to even out the under-represented group a bit and give those 50 AA spots to Black and Latino applicants. Still underrepresented, but better.

So now say it's the same scenario but now they are giving out those 50 AA spots to lower SES students, assuming all else is equal, 25 of those spots will go to Whites, 12 to Hispanic, 10 to Black, 2 to Asians, and 1 to Native Americans. Those additional 25 spots that used to be taken up by Black and Latino students are now taken up by more White students.

That is what I'm trying to say.

I see what you are saying but this is NOT how an SES based system or the system we have today would work. No school is ever going to tell you that they have 50 spots for affirmative action candidates because it is illegal to have a quota like that.

How an SES based system would work is like this: Let's say you have 1 spot left for your class and two applicants to choose from. Both have same numbers, same ECs, interviewed equally well, but one has a lower SES than the other. Who do you pick in an SES affirmative action system? The person with the lower SES. Who do you think is more likely to have a lower SES, a Black student or an Asian/White student? The data show that blacks on average have lower SES than asians. This is why my previous post said that blacks/latinos would still benefit more than Asians/Whites from a SES system.

The only difference with the SES system is that poor asians/whites would not be screwed over like they are now.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Except this isn't what the data show. This is conjecture. The data show slightly lower rates of admission at different mcat/gpa combinations for Asians. As many have pointed out, this could be due to several reasons (sample size at certain data points, difference in ECs, racism against Asians, etc) Until you show me an experiment where identical applicants have a race randomly assigned to them before applying to medical schools and achieve different outcomes, you can't make this claim with confidence.

My own hypothesis (with no research on my part - just guesswork) is that the large percentage of Asian applicants coming from California plays a role as well.

At nearly every possible MCAT/GPA combination, white students have a higher percentage acceptance than Asian students.

The pattern holds true in undergraduate admissions as well -- to achieve acceptance to the same (private, ivy league) schools, Asian students have to score 100+ points better than other racial groups. My college advisor was very open about this discrepancy when I was applying to colleges myself. As you said, it's possible there are other factors, but I have a strong suspicion that it's no different than the Jewish quotas instituted in the 1920s. In 1919, 40% of Columbia University's students were Jewish. This alarmed the faculty, who claimed they needed a more "diverse" class. Enter the Jewish quotas, which were later declared unconstitutional.

I would love to do the experiment highlighted in bold. It would be very enlightening for all of us, and it would finally put this entire discussion to rest!

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Without getting too specific to numbers, let's just say that >20% of my students are Asian. They're being discriminated against how?

No one is being held to a higher standard. But standards aren't always numeric. 4.0 automatons of any ethnicity are a dime a dozen. I just rejected two of them recently, because I cringe at the idea of these soul-less individuals touching patients.

And as a member of a group that was also historically discriminated against, whose ancestors also came from the Asian mainland, I'll just say that was then, this is now. The world has moved on.

Just for the sake of argument: If 40% of your qualified applicants are Asian, but only 20% of your accepted students are Asian, that demonstrates discrimination. Having a large proportion of Asian students in your class does NOT = no discrimination!

Think about the Jewish quotas. Jews make up about 2% of the US population. In 1919, they made up 40% of the undergraduates at Columbia University. As a result, the school officials instituted the Jewish quota, which declared that no more than 15% of the class could be Jewish. In 1923, the school was 15% Jewish, which is still a fairly large percentage -- does this mean that there was no discrimination against Jews?

 

[shenellica]

Of course! The quota system is where schools have to fill a certain amount of spots for each ethnicity. For example, a school on a quota system would say we need 10 blacks, 30 asians, 100 whites, etc. This would hurt any ethnicity that has many qualified applicants. For example, imagine if a school only wants 10 black people yet there are 15 extremely qualified black people applying. Tough luck for the 5 black people that don't get in. Same thing for Asians and any other ethnicity. This is exactly why the quota system is ILLEGAL in the united states. It punishes any ethnicity that produces highly qualified applicants that are more in number than what a school wants. The system we have in place right now does not work like this (at least it shouldn't legally), but I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few schools doing this under the table.

Ok that's what I thought. So the India example doesn't work to support the other posters view. I wonder if there are any countries with many ethnicities that have a "fair" system.

 

[SunsFun]

At nearly every possible MCAT/GPA combination, white students have a higher percentage acceptance than Asian students.

That still doesn't conclusively prove your point. I thought we agreed on that.

The pattern holds true in undergraduate admissions as well -- to achieve acceptance to the same (private, ivy league) schools, Asian students have to score 100+ points better than other racial groups. My college advisor was very open about this discrepancy when I was applying to colleges myself. As you said, it's possible there are other factors, but I have a strong suspicion that it's no different than the Jewish quotas instituted in the 1920s. In 1919, 40% of Columbia University's students were Jewish. This alarmed the faculty, who claimed they needed a more "diverse" class. Enter the Jewish quotas, which were later declared unconstitutional.

I would love to do the experiment highlighted in bold. It would be very enlightening for all of us, and it would finally put this entire discussion to rest!

Undergrad admission vs. med school admissions is apples to oranges.

 

[SunsFun]

I don't see why it has to be one or the other. You can theoretically use both SES and race to level the playing field with the effect of both being compounded for those individuals who are both poor and URM.

I hate quoting myself but after giving it some thought I'd like to elaborate more. The last thing I want is to have both low SES and URMs competing for the same limited number of spots. The way I envision this system work is to initially make a determination based on race and then apply SES distinction within each racial category so that, say, low SES white applicants get a boost over high SES white applicants.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

I hate quoting myself but after giving it some thought I'd like to elaborate more. The last thing I want is to have both low SES and URMs competing for the same limited number of spots. The way I envision this system work is to initially make a determination based on race and then apply SES distinction within each racial category so that, say, low SES white applicants get a boost over high SES white applicants.

So you have two applicants:

1. A half Black/half Latino student whose mom is a dentist, dad is a doctor. 32 MCAT and 3.6 GPA at an ivy league college.
2. A Chinese student whose parents (immigrants) own a small business. Neither parent is college-educated. 31 MCAT, 3.5 GPA at an ivy league college.

Does the black student get a boost over the Asian student?

Real life answer: I actually know the two people described above. Student #1 was accepted to 12 schools, and now attends a top 10 medical school. Student #2 got into his state school after his THIRD TIME applying. This was very financially taxing for someone whose family is already fairly poor.

Sadly, this story is all too common these days.

 

[pink/\floyd]

Are you ok or do you just want to pick a fight with everyone? How am I saying 3rd world countries don't have doctors? I was asking of the doctors that they do have what percentage is ethnically Indian vs what percentage is British? That link just compares the number of doctors to the population and nothing about the ethnicity of the doctors. This is a real question I had and I think it goes with the theme of this thread in discussing all the numbers on ORM and URM doctors vs how many people of those ethnicities make up the general population.

You added the India example so I was asking for those numbers.

I think I misunderstood your statement, hence my response. That's my bad. I don't want to fight with anyone, I'm just voicing my opinion just like everyone else. Obviously the British left India after the declaration of independence. I was trying to say some asians also have a history of being discriminated against. That is it..

 

[histidine]

Except this isn't what the data show. This is conjecture. The data show slightly lower rates of admission at different mcat/gpa combinations for Asians. As many have pointed out, this could be due to several reasons (sample size at certain data points, difference in ECs, racism against Asians, etc) Until you show me an experiment where identical applicants have a race randomly assigned to them before applying to medical schools and achieve different outcomes, you can't make this claim with confidence.

My own hypothesis (with no research on my part - just guesswork) is that the large percentage of Asian applicants coming from California plays a role as well.

It definitely is conjecture, but there are many studies that prove subconscious discrimination against minorities (asians included) in other academic settings. I don't believe active, conscious racism is behind these small discrepancies, but it wouldn't too far a stretch to say subconscious discrimination may be a factor. AMCAS would have to sneak in some fake applicants and run the experiment themselves.

My brother, racism requires one to have power. Race is a social construct. Blacks, Latinos, Natives, and Asians can be prejudiced towards White people all day, but as long as White people still hold the vast majority of power in this country, they can never be "racist". Take a sociology class.

Mmm, I've taken sociology. Racism does not require one to have power. Blacks, Latinos, Natives, and Asians can all be racist in America. Not just Whites. However, the discriminatory effects of racism will be felt mostly by those without power.

*Just briefly read up on it and it seems like the definition of "racism" is somewhat flexible. Either way, minorities can still be racist as they still can hold positions of power within a white dominated society.

I believe we can all agree white neo-nazis are racist. What happens if we put a white neo-nazi in...say...Israel. Does that white neo-nazi suddenly cease being racist?

 

[SunsFun]

So you have two applicants:

1. A half Black/half Latino student whose mom is a dentist, dad is a doctor. 32 MCAT and 3.6 GPA at an ivy league college.
2. A Chinese student whose parents (immigrants) own a small business. Neither parent is college-educated. 31 MCAT, 3.5 GPA at an ivy league college.

Does the black student get a boost over the Asian student?

Real life answer: I actually know the two people described above. Student #1 was accepted to 12 schools, and now attends a top 10 medical school. Student #2 got into his state school after his THIRD TIME applying. This was very financially taxing for someone whose family is already fairly poor.

Sadly, this story is all too common these days.

Those mixed race people make everything so much more complicated. Lol jk.

Seriously though from your description here we maybe have about 5% (if that) of information we would need to make any kind of decision.

 

[XmedBarney]

Except this isn't what the data show. This is conjecture. The data show slightly lower rates of admission at different mcat/gpa combinations for Asians. As many have pointed out, this could be due to several reasons (sample size at certain data points, difference in ECs, racism against Asians, etc) Until you show me an experiment where identical applicants have a race randomly assigned to them before applying to medical schools and achieve different outcomes, you can't make this claim with confidence.

My own hypothesis (with no research on my part - just guesswork) is that the large percentage of Asian applicants coming from California plays a role as well.

Hi, 1st post on SDN!!

I have been a long-time lurker on SDN, and from what I've seen a few ad-com members(LizzyM) have said that to be a strong applicant, one has to be in the top 40% of their demographic(ethnic) group. That is the essence of a quota system, it will inevitably lead to better outcomes if you are from a weak(applicant) demographic and worse outcomes if you are from a strong demographic.

In a purely meritocratic system(using whatever measures you want to use(MCAT, GPA, EC's, Life Experiences, ...), a strong applicant would be someone in the TOP 40% of all applicants, not just any individual demographic.

A reasonable extrapolation would be that perhaps there are more ad-coms that hold similar views, this is the reality that all applicants have to deal with.

The existence of a glass ceiling for Asians is undeniable, the success of Asian students at bottom levels of society is not reflected at the top levels, and the
reason is that what is required for success at the top is entirely different from requirements of success at the bottom. Things like memberships in churches,
golf clubs and political capital/power matter a lot more. There is inevitably a great deal of both quid pro quo and nepotism in the stratosphere(Not unique
to the US either). As a result of these things, an Asian quota will continue to exist until the glass ceiling is broken.

My 2 cents.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Those mixed race people make everything so much more complicated. Lol jk.

Seriously though from your description here we maybe have about 5% (if that) of information we would need to make any kind of decision.

Sigh. Both of those people are friends of mine. They are both socially presentable and have no trouble making eye contact (lol). My Asian friend is not an "automaton" and his parents are the opposite of Tiger Parents. Both guys genuinely wanted to be doctors, as far as I could tell. I'll be honest, my mixed race friend did not have the academic or personal qualifications that a non-URM would need for a top school, but he got in anyway. This is despite the fact that he has highly educated parents, and every advantage in life. An Asian with those academic numbers would be lucky to get into their state school. I cannot tell you how many Asian re-applicants I have met on the interview trail.

I have no problem with helping students who are genuinely disadvantaged. Kanye West's son should not be given a boost. The son of black doctors should not be given a boost. A poor URM OR Asian OR White student needs that boost.

 

[Reckoner]

It definitely is conjecture, but there are many studies that prove subconscious discrimination against minorities (asians included) in other academic settings. I don't believe active, conscious racism is behind these small discrepancies, but it wouldn't too far a stretch to say subconscious discrimination may be a factor. AMCAS would have to sneak in some fake applicants and run the experiment themselves.

Oh yeah, I agree that could be a factor. I just don't think it's fair to make conclusions about quotas based on a very incomplete picture of the applicant pool.

 

[Goro]

Please refrain from your ignorance of the admission process. If they're being denied an interview, it's NOT because the Dean is saying we have too many Asians, it's because they don't don't meet our minimum standards, or they lack something that matches our mission (like the right ECs).

If they're interviewed, but not accepted, it's typically because they bombed the interview.

As LizzyM and I have been patiently trying to explain to you, it's not always about numbers.

Just for the sake of argument: If 40% of your qualified applicants are Asian, but only 20% of your accepted students are Asian, that demonstrates discrimination. Having a large proportion of Asian students in your class does NOT = no discrimination!

Think about the Jewish quotas. Jews make up about 2% of the US population. In 1919, they made up 40% of the undergraduates at Columbia University. As a result, the school officials instituted the Jewish quota, which declared that no more than 15% of the class could be Jewish. In 1923, the school was 15% Jewish, which is still a fairly large percentage -- does this mean that there was no discrimination against Jews?

 

[histidine]

Oh yeah, I agree that could be a factor. I just don't think it's fair to make conclusions about quotas based on a very incomplete picture of the applicant pool.

Yeah definitely.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Please refrain from your ignorance of the admission process. If they're being denied an interview, it's NOT because the Dean is saying we have too many Asians, it's because they don't don't meet our minimum standards, or they lack something that matches our mission (like the right ECs).

If they're interviewed, but not accepted, it's typically because they bombed the interview.

As LizzyM and I have been patiently trying to explain to you, it's not always about numbers.

I'm not sure what you are responding to. I do not claim to know anything about the specifics of the admissions process. I was merely pointing out that admitting a decent number of Asians does NOT necessarily imply that there is no discrimination against Asians.

 

[MDforMee]

Actually, this pretty much proves there is white privilege.

If you're looking at a generational model where additive positive experiences causes a family to work their way up over the course of many generations, then you cannot say that slavery and overt racism from generations ago does not have an affect on black populations today.

Revenge of the phantom white racist boogeyman; the worst part is that you think this white racism is responsible for decreasing ORMs and increasing URMs, lol.

I'm not sure what you are responding to. I do not claim to know anything about the specifics of the admissions process. I was merely pointing out that admitting a decent number of Asians does NOT necessarily imply that there is no discrimination against Asians.

You're digging yourself in even deeper.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

I tried to tell you the same thing that he did.

You're digging yourself in even deeper.

What are you talking about? It's simple logic.

You cannot say definitively that there is no discrimination against Asians, just because they comprise >20% of a medical school class. I drew a parallel to the Jewish quotas to illustrate this.

Not sure what's so hard to understand....

 

[MDforMee]

What are you talking about? It's simple logic.

You cannot say definitively that there is no discrimination against Asians, just because they comprise >20% of a medical school class. I drew a parallel to the Jewish quotas to illustrate this.

Not sure what's so hard to understand....

Chill out.

We're saying that there's more at work than what you're describing.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Chill out.

We're saying that there's more at work than what you're describing.

I'm plenty chill. Of course there's more at play than numbers. That's not what I was addressing in my post.

On that topic, I recall a few pages back, you said some pretty creepy/racist things about Asian students. Is that the "more" that you are referring to? If so, I think you're done here.