NSU vs KCU

[futuredoc.77]

I am fortunate enough to shortlist my acceptances to NSU and KCU, but am having a hard time deciding between the two. Please give me your humble opinions. THANKS!

Please consider the following categories:
- Curriculum
- Board Prep
- Rotations
- Specialty residency placement

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[IslandStyle808]

The cheaper choice!

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I am fortunate enough to shortlist my acceptances to NSU and KCU, but am having a hard time deciding between the two. Please give me your humble opinions. THANKS!

- Being a Cali resident, I would love to eventually rotate and practice in Cali
- I am leaning towards Internal Med Subspecialties and Surgical Specialties

Please consider the following categories:
- Curriculum
- Board Prep
- Rotations
- Specialty residency placement



NSU pro:
- accustomed to the weather
- good research affiliations
- location
- good rotation sites


NSU con:
- First year curriculum seems disorganized
- have not heard wonders about the board prep


KCU pro:
- very strong curriculum
- board scores are better than NSU
- very good board prep


KCU con:
- never lived in cold snowy weather
- strong curriculum, but met people complaining of the curriculum on interview day

You really can't go wrong with either place. First is cost and second is location. NSU is slightly more expensive. Not terrible. NSU is also more suburban and KCU is more urban if you have a preference. But overall I think these schools are about equivalent and would personally pick based on location. The curriculum was disorganized at NSU this year due to an anatomy lab mishap but that shouldn't be a problem next year.

 

[kenjixshadow]

OP, take my advice with a grain of salt.

- Being a Cali resident, I would love to eventually rotate and practice in Cali
- I am leaning towards Internal Med Subspecialties and Surgical Specialties

NSU pro:
- accustomed to the weather
- good research affiliations
- location
- good rotation sites


NSU con:
- First year curriculum seems disorganized
- have not heard wonders about the board prep


KCU pro:
- very strong curriculum
- board scores are better than NSU
- very good board prep

- strong curriculum, but met people complaining of the curriculum on interview day

1) Go read Nekobeat's posts of NSU http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/pros-and-cons-of-your-do-school.407104/page-28
2) You need to do research. NSU will give you time to do research between M1-M2 summer. You can make it work at KCU, but remember KCU's curriculum will likely prevent you from getting any research done in pre-clinical years. Go read KCU class of 2018 & 2019 threads and see it for yourself.
3) What does very good board prep mean? Board score is up entirely to you. How much time off does each school give you for dedicated study? That is a more pertinent question to ask.
4) Good rotation sites are always plus plus plus. I won't go any further into this topic.
5) No one ever mentions this topic, but pick a school that DO NOT heavily emphasize on OMT. You'll quickly learn how time consuming this class can be and will literally have to cram for it in the last minute on top of research and basic science courses in the finals week.
6) Required rural rotation in early 4th year will be detrimental when you need the time to do sub-I.

 

[LA Lakers 2018 champs]

mandatory rural rotations can have really bad timing

 

[allantois]

NSU is infinitely more diverse because of its location (something you could consider as a CA resident).

 

[Henry101]

I'm a Cali student too and would pick KCU. Some of your basic science courses at NSUCOM will be with other Health Professions students. Like others mentioned, besides 12 weeks of family medicine, you will also have a rural rotation. But, the location of NSUCOM is amazing.
KCU has Dr. Dubin as their current Dean. He is single-handedly responsible for reshaping the curriculum of OUHCOM, RVUCOM, TCOM, EVCOM, and, now, KCUCOM. You'll be in very experienced hands.

Also, I'm going to be honest with you, as another Cali student that wants to do an IM sub-specialty or surgical sub-specialty, coming back to this state for residency will be nearly impossible by the time we graduate. The entire state has 1 DO surgery residency that is currently shrinking because of the new ACGME rules. Also, besides a few IM sub-specialties at Arrowhead, most CA IM fellowships have also never taken a DO. Going to KCUMB will open enough doors to get into a solid residency/fellowships outside of CA so that you can eventually return back, if you so wish, to practice here. Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it.

 

[Giovanotto]

I'm surprised nobody has brought up the opening of NSU's allopathic program.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Do you like winter or do you want to be on a beach or outside? Both are pretty good schools with KCU maybe offering a bit more freedom in the 4th year, but probably having slightly worse rotations than NSU.

 

[Henry101]

I'm surprised nobody has brought up the opening of NSU's allopathic program.

I heard there were some funding issues

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm surprised nobody has brought up the opening of NSU's allopathic program.

It's not like the DO program is suddenly going to be crap though. It's going to continue being one of the best DO schools in the country.

I heard there were some funding issues

Really?

 

[futuredoc.77]

Thank you all for your replies. I had been wanting to attend NSU since my interview date. The only things holding me back were:

- Board preparation (I have heard really good things of Dr. Dubin's curriculum implementation at KCU). But like everyone says, board exams all depend on how you study. I think I will study better in the Florida weather than snowy KC weather.

- 4th year mandatory rotations: Though NSU will give me more research opportunities keeping in mind its curriculum is somewhat less demanding than KCU, I am afraid of the 4th year mandatory rural rotation falling at the wrong time.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Thank you all for your replies. I had been wanting to attend NSU since my interview date. The only things holding me back were:

- Board preparation (I have heard really good things of Dr. Dubin's curriculum implementation at KCU). But like everyone says, board exams all depend on how you study. I think I will study better in the Florida weather than snowy KC weather.

- 4th year mandatory rotations: Though NSU will give me more research opportunities keeping in mind its curriculum is somewhat less demanding than KCU, I am afraid of the 4th year mandatory rural rotation falling at the wrong time.

I personally don't really think those 2 things will be much of an issue. It's only 1 rotation you still have plenty of other opportunities to do audition rotations. I also think doing a rural rotation is important. As far as board prep goes that's more on you then the schools. Things you should focus on are cost, location, curriculum, rotation quality, residency programs.


Yoi should really go where you be happiest since that is where you will do best.

 

[AwayFromReality]

I personally don't really think those 2 things will be much of an issue. It's only 1 rotation you still have plenty of other opportunities to do audition rotations. I also think doing a rural rotation is important. As far as board prep go that's more on you then the schools. Thinks you should focus on are cost, location, curriculum, rotation quality, residency programs.


Yoi should really go where you be happiest since that is where you will do best.

That 1 rural rotation spans two months but I do agree there is still time to do audition rotations, especially if one uses the month of July before 4th year as an audition month instead of board prep.

OP, like others have said both are excellent schools. I think your decision on where to go should be based on which school has the best clinical education (i.e rotations), since I personally believe that is the most important factor for future residencies. I havent done enough research into KCU's quality of rotations (I'm sure they're good), but I know NSU has great rotation sites. The only thing that concerns me is the randomness of the lottery which could have you at a low quality hospital. But that random lottery is something you will find at almost every school

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Thank you all for your replies. I had been wanting to attend NSU since my interview date. The only things holding me back were:

- Board preparation (I have heard really good things of Dr. Dubin's curriculum implementation at KCU). But like everyone says, board exams all depend on how you study. I think I will study better in the Florida weather than snowy KC weather.

- 4th year mandatory rotations: Though NSU will give me more research opportunities keeping in mind its curriculum is somewhat less demanding than KCU, I am afraid of the 4th year mandatory rural rotation falling at the wrong time.

Are you studying outside in the snow or something? I wouldn't choose a school based on weather. You're gonna be stuck inside most the time anyways studying. Besides, it's the middle of December and I have yet to see snow in KC.

Both are good schools. Once you become accustomed to the curriculum at KCU it's not that bad.

 

[Henry101]

Wait, who said it snows in Kansas City?
Ya'll don't know what ya'll are talking about.
If you want to see snow, talk to a CCOM student

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Wait, who said it snows in Kansas City?
Ya'll don't know what ya'll are talking about.
If you want to see snow, talk to a CCOM student

Right? OP said it was snowy...

 

[katiemaude]

You will be fine at either school. Pick based on cost, location, etc. The comments people are making about rural rotations and lotteries seem to be made by people with no experience going on hearsay. The "worst" rotation site at NSU is a small hospital but you are only there like three months and the rest of your rotations are at other amazing sites in Miami. And self-directed learners will do fine. Also if it's your last pick, you get scheduling preference and can manage to get all your golden months off for residency interviews. People are wayyyy too dramatic about the NSU lottery. We also have amazing OPP professors, 2 hours of lab and 1-2 hrs of lecture per week. I don't think that's excessive. Lab is pretty chill and it's a nice time to actually see your classmates when 70 percent of the class prefers watching lectures on video capture instead of going to class. Plus free back rubs. And no one needs to buy Savarese because we get a slammin review right before COMLEX and kill that section on the boards. As for boards prep, that should be on your anyway. I'd be fine if our school just let us do it all ourselves.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Are you studying outside in the snow or something? I wouldn't choose a school based on weather. You're gonna be stuck inside most the time anyways studying. Besides, it's the middle of December and I have yet to see snow in KC.

Both are good schools. Once you become accustomed to the curriculum at KCU it's not that bad.

It's a warm year and the temps are in the mid 50s even in Canada. Next year winter will probably comeback with a fury.

The KCU curriculum has its difficulties, but getting through it isn't impossible.

 

[NekoBeats]

You will be fine at either school. Pick based on cost, location, etc. The comments people are making about rural rotations and lotteries seem to be made by people with no experience going on hearsay. The "worst" rotation site at NSU is a small hospital but you are only there like three months and the rest of your rotations are at other amazing sites in Miami. And self-directed learners will do fine. Also if it's your last pick, you get scheduling preference and can manage to get all your golden months off for residency interviews. People are wayyyy too dramatic about the NSU lottery. We also have amazing OPP professors, 2 hours of lab and 1-2 hrs of lecture per week. I don't think that's excessive. Lab is pretty chill and it's a nice time to actually see your classmates when 70 percent of the class prefers watching lectures on video capture instead of going to class. Plus free back rubs. And no one needs to buy Savarese because we get a slammin review right before COMLEX and kill that section on the boards. As for boards prep, that should be on your anyway. I'd be fine if our school just let us do it all ourselves.

I'm not someone who got last pick so I can't comment on this, but where did you hear this from?

 

[katiemaude]

I'm not someone who got last pick so I can't comment on this, but where did you hear this from?

From two people who got their dead last pick, one this year and one last year. Not sure if special exceptions were made for them or if it was coincidence instead of policy but they both acted like it was part of the deal.

 

[NekoBeats]

From two people who got their dead last pick, one this year and one last year. Not sure if special exceptions were made for them or if it was coincidence instead of policy but they both acted like it was part of the deal.

If they really gave those people no rurals from August-December because they got their 14th choice, I'd be kind of surprised. I don't remember the school telling my class anything about that last year and I honestly think it would make people complain like crazy. But, who knows.

I also wanted to bring up something you mentioned in your last post- There is a difference between rotation sites. You can be a self-directed learner all you want but that won't get you nearly as far as being self-directed and have attendings who are actually willing to teach you. There is absolutely no substitute for having great physicians mentor you through rotations, some of whom have literally decades of clinical and teaching experience. You're right that if you happen to get one of the less desirable rotation sites you'll only be there for a little bit. However, if you get your IM/surgery months there then that can be a problem... Plus it's not guaranteed that the rest of your rotations will be at great places, so your rotations in general just wouldn't have been awesome.


Anyway, sorry for the slight thread derailment.

 

[katiemaude]

If they really gave those people no rurals from August-December because they got their 14th choice, I'd be kind of surprised. I don't remember the school telling my class anything about that last year and I honestly think it would make people complain like crazy. But, who knows.

I also wanted to bring up something you mentioned in your last post- There is a difference between rotation sites. You can be a self-directed learner all you want but that won't get you nearly as far as being self-directed and have attendings who are actually willing to teach you. There is absolutely no substitute for having great physicians mentor you through rotations, some of whom have literally decades of clinical and teaching experience. You're right that if you happen to get one of the less desirable rotation sites you'll only be there for a little bit. However, if you get your IM/surgery months there then that can be a problem... Plus it's not guaranteed that the rest of your rotations will be at great places, so your rotations in general just wouldn't have been awesome.


Anyway, sorry for the slight thread derailment.

Well you are speaking from more experience so I will defer to you regarding your personal experiences, and we were not told the people who got their last choice would have scheduling preference either. But why would that upset the rest of the class? Don't you think they deserve some kind of break? I was just going off what two people who drew high numbers and ended up at their last choice said, i.e. it could be a coincidence and they assumed it was that, a carrot of sorts.

I don't disagree with what you are saying about good mentors and their value. But there are people at "good" sites who have complained about their attendings in IM and surgery so how does that fit in? You mentioned in your blog that you got a lucky draw with attendings who liked to teach, so that implies other people at your site haven't been as lucky. I know students at allopathic schools with their own teaching hospital who learned squat on a rotation. There is complaining from people who got exactly what they wanted. Med students are expert complainers. If you get excused at 12 on a "bad" rotation and decide to use that time to follow other attendings, that's you making the best of a situation. If you go home and take a nap, you shouldn't be whining about your rotation site (not you specifically). Of course you hope to draw a high number and do the research to get the best site possible but if you don't, I would hope you still find a way to get a good education.

 

[AlteredScale]

KCU does a lottery system for rotations and a good amount of people didn't even match to a site for third year and had to scramble for one.

 

[IslandStyle808]

If they really gave those people no rurals from August-December because they got their 14th choice, I'd be kind of surprised. I don't remember the school telling my class anything about that last year and I honestly think it would make people complain like crazy. But, who knows.

I also wanted to bring up something you mentioned in your last post- There is a difference between rotation sites. You can be a self-directed learner all you want but that won't get you nearly as far as being self-directed and have attendings who are actually willing to teach you. There is absolutely no substitute for having great physicians mentor you through rotations, some of whom have literally decades of clinical and teaching experience. You're right that if you happen to get one of the less desirable rotation sites you'll only be there for a little bit. However, if you get your IM/surgery months there then that can be a problem... Plus it's not guaranteed that the rest of your rotations will be at great places, so your rotations in general just wouldn't have been awesome.


Anyway, sorry for the slight thread derailment.

This should be sticked!

 

[NekoBeats]

Well you are speaking from more experience so I will defer to you regarding your personal experiences, and we were not told the people who got their last choice would have scheduling preference either. But why would that upset the rest of the class? Don't you think they deserve some kind of break? I was just going off what two people who drew high numbers and ended up at their last choice said, i.e. it could be a coincidence and they assumed it was that, a carrot of sorts.

Of course. I just think that if the school was giving rotation scheduling preference, it shouldn't just be for the people that got their 14th pick. What about the people who got their 13th? 12th? 11th? When my class first got our assignments, pretty much anyone who got something after their 5th choice wasn't super thrilled. What if someone switched sites and no longer had their last pick? Or if their 14th choice was a great teaching hospital and they only ranked it last because it was far away and they didn't want to move? Would it still be fair that they get a great M4 schedule? What about people that want to go into competitive specialties? Or those with personal or family obligations? Why shouldn't they also get scheduling preferences? The whole thing (if it's actually true and if it got out) would just bring up other issues about who "deserves" to have scheduling preference for M4 year and defeats the purpose of trying to make the whole rotation selection process up to chance. That's all I'm saying.

I don't disagree with what you are saying about good mentors and their value. But there are people at "good" sites who have complained about their attendings in IM and surgery so how does that fit in? You mentioned in your blog that you got a lucky draw with attendings who liked to teach, so that implies other people at your site haven't been as lucky. I know students at allopathic schools with their own teaching hospital who learned squat on a rotation. There is complaining from people who got exactly what they wanted. Med students are expert complainers. If you get excused at 12 on a "bad" rotation and decide to use that time to follow other attendings, that's you making the best of a situation. If you go home and take a nap, you shouldn't be whining about your rotation site (not you specifically). Of course you hope to draw a high number and do the research to get the best site possible but if you don't, I would hope you still find a way to get a good education.

I've yet to hear a classmate or anyone at my site openly complain about their hospital IM or surgery attending, but I'm sure someone out there has. I'm not trying to claim that all attendings at the big hospitals are flawless or that you won't get a good education if you don't go to one of these hospitals. That would be silly. I'm saying that if you rotate at a statutory teaching hospital like, for example internal medicine at Broward Health, you'll be working with physicians (residents, fellows, attendings) at a 700+ bed hospital, that has a bunch of associated residency programs, tons of disease pathology, has been teaching medical students for years and has an established system of doing so. Compare that to one of the newer sites where some of my classmates have literally been told by the physician, "We don't really have students here so I'm not sure what you should do. I guess just follow me around?". Yeah, they did fine on the rotation and were able to learn things, but (in general) were the attendings there as prepared and/or willing to teach as those at a teaching hospital? No. That being said, I agree that what you get out of rotations is what you make of it. Some things when it actually comes to working on the floor are out of your authority/control though.

If you want to continue this convo then PM me. I don't want to keep spamming this thread.

 

[Gandyy]

KCU does a lottery system for rotations and a good amount of people didn't even match to a site for third year and had to scramble for one.

Thats awful to hear.

 

[More_Medz]

KCU does a lottery system for rotations and a good amount of people didn't even match to a site for third year and had to scramble for one.

That is definitely not good.

Is this a recurring theme? Or is the school trying to fix this?

 

[Gandyy]

That is definitely not good.

Is this a recurring theme? Or is the school trying to fix this?

Well with a 270+ class size, I cant say I am too surprised, but its still not a good thing.

 

[More_Medz]

Well with a 270+ class size, I cant say I am too surprised, but its still not a good thing.

That is true, it is a very big class size.

But regardless, I will just have to make the best of what resources I am given at KCU.

Although, I wish COCA had as strict accreditation of schools as LCME did. Maybe, they will also merge in the future...

 

[Gandyy]

That is true, it is a very big class size.

But regardless, I will just have to make the best of what resources I am given at KCU.

Although, I wish COCA had as strict accreditation of schools as LCME did. Maybe, they will also merge in the future...

Yea, this would also greatly reduce the biases PDs have against DOs.

 

[allantois]

That is true, it is a very big class size.

But regardless, I will just have to make the best of what resources I am given at KCU.

Although, I wish COCA had as strict accreditation of schools as LCME did. Maybe, they will also merge in the future...

DO schools need large classes to fund their schools. You merge LCME with COCA, all you'll get is closure of COCA schools (with the exception of very few).

 

[More_Medz]

DO schools need large classes to fund their schools. You merge LCME with COCA, all you'll get is closure of COCA schools (with the exception of very few).

True.

I guess the peril of not having an associated medical center with the school is that there will always be some aspect of uncertainty regarding clinical rotations.

 

[Bbutterfly]

KCU does a lottery system for rotations and a good amount of people didn't even match to a site for third year and had to scramble for one.

I think to help people make an informed decision, it would be best to explain how the system works. Though it's not perfect when you have a lottery system, this is bound to happen. We had to make 1st and 2nd choice. Yes, some people din't get neither their first or second choice, but not because there were not enough space, but because they use a computer algorithm and run several matches until they find the match that get the most people their first choice AND the least people unmatched.
You also have a process in place where people that have special circumstances, can write an appeal letter to a committee with supporting documentation, that would explain why they should be given special consideration for a specific sites. In addition you can write another letter to whoever is the one in charge for the site you want, making a pitch for why you want them to pick you. I believe every site can choose up till 3 candidates
So show me a lottery system that let you pick only 2 choices and doesn't have people "unmatched". Considering the fact that rotation sites have a limited number of students they can take at the time, you need a system that makes sense, and I believe the way they run it makes sense.
At the end everyone gets a pick. Not everyone is happy but they try to make it in such a way that most people are happy.

Thats awful to hear.

 

[AlteredScale]

I think to help people make informed decision, it would be best to explain how the system work. Though it's not perfect when you have a lottery system, this is bound to happen. We had to make 1st and 2nd choice. Yes, some people din't get neither their first or second choice, but not because there were not enough space, but because they use a computer algorithm and run several matches until they find the match that get the most people their first choice AND the least people unmatched.
You also have a process in place where people that have special circumstances, can write an appeal letter to a committee with supporting documentation, that would explain why they should be given special consideration for a specific sites. In addition you can write another letter to whoever is the one in charge for the site you want, making a pitch for why you want them to pick you. I believe every site can choose up till 3 candidates
So show me a lottery system that let you pick only 2 choices and doesn't have people "unmatched". Considering the fact that rotation sites have a limited number of students they can take at the time, you need a system that makes sense, and I believe the way they run it makes sense.
At the end everyone gets a pick. Not everyone is happy but they try to make it in such a way that most people are happy.

@More_Medz this is more specific as to how clerkship spots are picked. So I wouldn't fret.

 

[More_Medz]

@More_Medz this is more specific as to how clerkship spots are picked. So I wouldn't fret.

Sounds good. I appreciate the info!

I will admit the last post caused me some concern.. but glad to know it isn't major problem

 

[kenjixshadow]

Although, I wish COCA had as strict accreditation of schools as LCME did. Maybe, they will also merge in the future...

This will not happen, at least not in the next decade or two I can reassure you that. The day COCA & LCME merge, that is the day marking DO will merge into MD. Idk about KCU, but at my school and my friends' schools, DO old guards are very "proud" of themselves in a way that they think they are better than their colleague MDs in every aspect. They explicitly said it during white coat ceremony and in classroom. They also made fun of MD faculties for not taking the DO route and some of these ppl are AOA members. Until they are retired/gone from DO world, we will not see the merge. Moreover, with the current LCME's standard, half of DO schools will be put on probation for not having adequate clerkship standard. Btw, you will see that there are "kool-aid drinkers" who buy into the philosophy and they become the next generation guards. It will have to take DOs who undergone pure ACGME training to propose the merge between two degrees, or at least between COCA & LCME.